EV Digest 2692
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) smart charger options?
by "Travis Raybold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Universal terminals
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Universal terminals
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hart balancer musings
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: smart charger options?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: smart charger options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fw:OT Making the degree sign
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Steve Clunn's list
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Steve Clunn's list
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor, Surprise!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Steve Clunn's list
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: CurrentEliminator NEWS
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Universal terminals
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Universal terminals
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Bringing Old Lead Back To Life
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: smart charger options?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Bringing Old Lead Back To Life
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: smart charger options?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
hello everyone, ive been lurking here for a few years working up the courage
(and the cash) to buy an ev. i just bought mark peterson's beautiful fiat
spider conversion last night. the batteries are too low to be charged by the
simple charger he has, but he suggested a smart charger might be able to
bring them up to a workable state (degraded range/speed). since i think id
want to get some sort of smart charrging system in before buying new
batteries anyway, if i can get one now, and limp along with the weak battery
back for a few months to save up some more $ for batteries, that would be
quite useful.
its got a double string of deep cycle optimas, 120v. more details at:
http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm
from what ive read, it all depends on what your priorities are. my first
priority would be making the battery pack last as long as possible, second
would be depth of charge, third would be time to charge. i do have a 22v
outlet available (or will if it will help :)
ive looked at: http://www.innevations.com/chargers.html but im unable to
determine which would be best suited for my car. what have you all found to
be the best option for making an optima pack last as long as possible?
thanks in advance,
--travis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have helped a high school construct an electric vehicle. It uses 16
T-145s.
The existing batteries have "L" style posts which are well suited to the
high current draws. We are increasing the battery capacity by adding
more T-145s. I understand the new batteries were shipped with Universal
posts.
"L" posts were not available off the shelf, there would have been a several
week delay so the teacher ordered the Universal posts. I am concerned
that connecting the wiring to the 5/16 post will not provide good contact
for
currents that can reach 1000 Amps. (500 Amps is typical) Can
automotive-style battery terminals on the cables be used with the
Universal posts? Are the positive and negative posts different sizes as is
the
practice in typical automotive batteries?
I am not happy about having to mix battery post types - this will require
different cabling and limit battery interchangeability but we are up
against a tight schedule. I don't want to attempt replacing the posts
myself.
US Battery had changed the posts for me on an order several years ago..
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
-Alan
Alan C. Shedd, P.E.
Advisor to Georgia's Electric Vehicle Education Program
(cell) 770-654-0027
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> that connecting the wiring to the 5/16 post will not provide good contact
> for currents that can reach 1000 Amps. (500 Amps is typical)
You are absolutely correct. Do NOT use those 5/26 bolts for anything
over about 100 amps.
> Can
> automotive-style battery terminals on the cables be used with the
> Universal posts? Are the positive and negative posts different sizes as is
> the
> practice in typical automotive batteries?
>
Yes and yes. The automotive style posts are actually the preferred
posts for high current vehicles. Much larger contact surface.
I assume you are using Belleville washers with your "L" posts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
> As I've mentioned here before, I am personally responsible for driving
> Roger Stockton and Lee Hart nuts as they supported me building my Hart
> Balancer. This has almost nothing to do with the elegant simplicity of
> Lee's design and is mostly due to my EE newbie status. I know a little
> programming and have done some Basic STAMP programming and projects and
> thought I could just sit down a slap together the balancer. Along the
> way I think I've stumbeld into every pothole out there and was rescued
> by Lee and Roger.
>
> My Balancer is back up and running today, after I zorched the VICOR
> DC/DC. The output of the balancer may be seen at:
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/Falcon_032903.htm
>
> What I have done is the following:
> 1) The serial programming port of my Hart Balancer is plugged into a
> java powered TINI from Dallas Semi/Maxim.
> 2) The eMeter is also plugged into a serial port on the TINI.
> 3) The TINI is plugged into a Linksys WET11 wireless link allowing me to
> see the referenced web page from indoors on my LAN, or via the WAN at
> work, or even outside the country as I have tried.
>
> The TINI grabs and parses the two serial streams and serves up the web
> page. At present the individual battery temp monitors are "fake". But
> I intend to epoxy a temp sensor down to each battery and then be able to
> watch the 11 battery temps in near real time. What the display is
> showing is the individual battery voltages and the number of balncer
> cycles each batt has received. My present algorithm is to measure each
> battery and charge the lowest for 2.5 minutes. The reason there is such
> a disparity in the attached display is my zorched DC/DC. While it was
> out of service for several weeks a wimpy 6amp "blinky" charger tried to
> stand in for it. This little off the shelf auto battery charger barely
> creaked above 14.0v which wasn't enought to fully balance my Optima
> YT's. Normally this pack is balanced well within 0.2 volts from highest
> to lowest. With the VICOR replaced I am certain it will quickly be back
> in balance.
>
> Rich Rudman: You posted a while back that you'd like to sit at your
> desk and see the temp and voltage of each individual battery. Here is
> such a system. One of your old MKII regs is on batt #10, ready to clamp
> it as it will undoubtedly be the first to go high. I like both the
> active, Juice 'em Up approach of the Hart Balancer and the passive Clamp
> 'em Down approach of the Rudman Regulators. Both will probably have a
> place in my installation as I think the two working together will allow
> for faster charge times and better protection.
>
> On my list for improvements:
> 1) get the individual temp sensors down on each batt
> 2) track lifetime vs. per charge history
> 3) jam all this gear in the car, as Lee has designed the Balancer to run
> on discharge as well as charge. If I stick the TINI and Linsys in the
> car, I won't even need to plug it in to get it on the 'net.
> 4) right now the Balancer enables or disables my dumb offboard
> ferroresonnant charger. i'd like the Balancer to direct it to start with
> a bulk charge and then throttle back at some set point. Eventually
> would like to add a Brusa or PFC and have the Balancer chat with those.
> 5) redesign my TINI aggregation/parsing/webserver software either to do
> a UDP "push" or servlet or applet for near real time constant updating.
> 6) NiZn batteries, an active battery cooling system, and the appropriate
> charge regime which I'm sure Smalley/Rudman/Sheer/Evercel and other
> brave experimenters will have decided upon by the time I accomplish 1-5
> above.
>
> I hope you LiOn experimenters have yourselves a Battery management
> system. For the rest of you who have crawled around your battery boxes
> with a DVM, I reccommend Lee's extensible rig. This winter it was a lot
> nicer to sit down at a desktop in the toasty house, or use a wireless
> laptop in the kitchen to see what was cooking in the garage.
>
> Happy balancing....
YEa Fred I surfed into your battery pack yesterday. This is exactly what
I want the MK3 sytem to do. Sheer willing, that should start this week.
The next most impressive thing I have seen on Evs lately is John
Lussmyer's remote LED display of CPU fan cooled MK2 in His Sparrow.
There is no doubt that Battery #8 and #2 have issues. It's just to the
left a your left knee while driving. This is impressive for it's
practicality. NO Data, no micros, just simple stuff. All you really
need , for Go/NOgo battery status.
I got a couple of cycles on his system, and some funny data. The 120
VAC Zivan, makes 8.4 amps, the PFC20 on the same ciccuit makes 13.6.
This is what PFC gives you. Then I got the 240 to 120 Cheater cord wired
up , and got a full 20 amps at 180 into the Sparrow. I replaced 3 Kwhr
in less than one hour, but the taper took for ever.
Of course the PFC50#1 makes 58 amps... and the bulk phase takes about 15
minutes. This current finally reset the Lowbat latch on Yt#8. Hummm yea
it's kinda low. It's the worst "problem" battery.
Long Taper says a lot about the state of health of your battery pack.
In this case at least 3 Yts are suspect to some form of damge. But the
rest seam healthy. I have seen a 180 VDC open circuit voltage, that well
didn't make much sense. So a couple of new or better Yts and I think I
can get Tweety back up to 20 miles. Bringing back the dead lead, hummm
sounds a bit famillure.
Oh yea and John L... your controller can suck over 400 battery amps from
the Yts... it's NOT turned down to 300 amps, and I had more pedal to go.
Yea I think Damon gave this Sparrow a 1200 tuned down to 400, Still that
leave 1000-1800 possible in the motor loop. This thing Scootes!
Odd thought... anybody want to trade a running sound Sparrow for a Ev
Fiero??? Er I do have to fix the Kostov...
The newer the better.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> The key word is think. Guys in ties aren't often bound by practical
> matters. CEOs doen't hear the word "no" very often. Middle management
> either doesn't have the spine or the understand enough to say "no". It
> is one thing to demand that a presentation (for example) gets done
> overnight. That is just more overtime. But overtime doesn't often yield
> huge scientific/engineering achievments.
>
> At least that's how an engineer near the bottom of the pyramid sees it...
>
> <rant on>
>
> Technological hurdles like:
>
> Who really wants to hear about freezing your PEM stack solid at 20F, or
> that you really can't keep enough ions out of the water to prevent
> ground faults in a 200V stack, or that it needs passivated stainless
> everything, no flexible hoses. Or that the lower flammable limit for H2
> is 2% in air. Or that peak efficiency is 50-60% not including the
> seventeen exhaust fans and pumps or that the voltage drops like a stone
> under load. And where did that H2 come from. Or that you *still need a
> decent EV and EV battery* underneath it all to make it work, becasue
> they take minutes to turn on and the voltage droops so much. Use fuel
> cells to go to the moon, not the grocery store. Go to the grocery store
> in a battery EV.
> <rant off>
>
> Seth
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > How is it that politicians and big auto companies think they can produce
> > a
> > "high tech" Fuel Cell powered EV when they can't (or just don't want to)
> > produce a simpler low tech Battery powered EV at a reasonable price.
> > Is this just another way to give auto companies and fuel cell companies
> > money to work on fuel cells.
> >
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Damn Seth, my exact feelings on Fool Cells.
It's not clear weather they will get down to our level, just because so
much had been done and the huge amount that still has to be done.
Good EV drives are 10 years ago with good Cashflow. It looks like a OK
Ev battery is emerging. Lead, just barley, get it done for most of us.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Travis Raybold wrote:
>
> hello everyone, ive been lurking here for a few years working up the courage
> (and the cash) to buy an ev. i just bought mark peterson's beautiful fiat
> spider conversion last night. the batteries are too low to be charged by the
> simple charger he has, but he suggested a smart charger might be able to
> bring them up to a workable state (degraded range/speed). since i think id
> want to get some sort of smart charrging system in before buying new
> batteries anyway, if i can get one now, and limp along with the weak battery
> back for a few months to save up some more $ for batteries, that would be
> quite useful.
>
> its got a double string of deep cycle optimas, 120v. more details at:
> http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm
>
> from what ive read, it all depends on what your priorities are. my first
> priority would be making the battery pack last as long as possible, second
> would be depth of charge, third would be time to charge. i do have a 22v
> outlet available (or will if it will help :)
>
> ive looked at: http://www.innevations.com/chargers.html but im unable to
> determine which would be best suited for my car. what have you all found to
> be the best option for making an optima pack last as long as possible?
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> --travis
The stuff I build of course!!!
Check out the website, and call if you have any questions.
Ask around for testimonials, and real life experiences.
I designed these for YTs, in my car Goldie, and to be as flexable as
possible for what ever chemistry comes our way.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
> The key word is think. Guys in ties aren't often bound by practical
> matters...
Right on target! I call it the pointy-haired boss syndrome. He doesn't
understand the technology or limitations; he just knows what he wants,
and is in a position to order it done.
A pointy-haired boss doesn't *want* to know about problems. Knowing the
full facts about a problem only makes you cautious and indecisive. That
won't get you promoted!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Travis Raybold wrote:
> Hello everyone... I just bought Mark peterson's beautiful Fiat
> Spider conversion last night. The batteries are too low to be
> charged by the simple charger he has, but he suggested a smart
> charger might be able to bring them up to a workable state
> (degraded range/speed).
I don't think most "smart" chargers will help. 99% of them assume the
batteries are good and are properly maintained.
What is the condition of the pack now? I would measure each individual
battery voltage, and write it down.
1. Any less than 12.0 volts are in critical condition. They are
your first priority. First, try charging the whole pack with your
present charger. Watch the voltages on each battery.
- A normal dead battery will draw lots of current, and its voltage
will be less than 13v. As it charges, the voltage slowly rises
and the current slowly falls. If this happens for all batteries,
let the main charger keep charging.
- An abused battery will draw low current, and its voltage will
rise very quickly to over 14v. If this happens to any battery,
turn off the main charger; you will have to charge the batteries
individually.
I would connect an ordinary automotive 12v charger with a car
tail light in series to limit the current to under 1 amp. This
will charge the battery (slowly), but not let the voltage or
current get too high.
Check on the voltage and/or current every so often. If the battery
is recovering, the initial high voltage will slowly FALL, and the
initial low current will slowly RISE. Note: If the battery has
been left dead a long time, it may take DAYS for the current to
stop rising.
- A bad battery will draw no current and immediately go over 15v
(open circuit), or will draw high current but stay less than
12 volts (shorted cells).
2. Once you have fully charged each battery (as full as it will go in
its present condition, then you have to connect a load and do an
individual discharge test of each one. Make or buy a load tester
consisting of light bulbs, resistors, etc. to draw something near
25 amps. Since you have an E-meter, it would be desirable to remove
it and use it to monitor each battery as it is tested.
3. You will no doubt find some "stinkers" that are just plain bad.
You have to remove them from the pack -- not only are they just
dead weight, they will pull down the rest of the pack.
4. If you are going to have the batteries out, weigh them and closely
inspect them for a loose top (some place around the top that you
can flex up with your fingers). Any light batteries have lost
water; you can drill little holes and add water to try to save
them if they are still good but low in capacity. You can reseal
them with glue.
5. I see in the pictures that some batteries are sitting on their
sides. You may want to flip them (other side down); this may gain
you some capacity.
> its got a double string of deep cycle optimas, 120v.
You're going to have to remove any paralling jumpers between batteries
(wires from + to +, or - to -). With these wires in place, you can't
tell which of the two parallelled batteries is good/bad.
I know, it's all a lot of work. But you did say you wanted to save them
if possible. And, you will be amazed how well some of them will come
back from the edge of death!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> This worked better for me...
> http://searchwin2000.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid1_gci847800,00.html
>
> Special ASCII symbols can be generated in common versions of Windows
> applications by activating the keyboard NUM LOCK function, pressing the ALT
> key, and entering certain numbers in the numeric keypad (located on the
> right-hand end of the keyboard) while the ALT key is held down. The symbol
> appears when the ALT key is released, after the number has been entered.
> The following table denotes the symbols available using this technique.
> These symbols are generally not found on keyboards, but they are viewable in
> most word processors and Web browsers. [snip]
This list worked better for me than the one Martin Jackson posted. Most
(maybe all) of the characters displayed correctly on my PC with Windows
3.11 and Netscape 3.04.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A thread with my name in it . I am flattered. My head is as big as an SUV
;- )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Vaughn-Perling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: Steve Clunn's list
> Steve, you made a great list of things that can be done to help the EV
> community. It seems that most of the problems with the items on that list
> have to do with the sales and marketing of the finished product. Raffles
> and such are not a great replacement for quality sales and marketing.
The list was of things that I had tried over the years . I wouldn't say that
they didn't work , but I would say they didn't work well . I worked at
selling my 2nd for years ( so I could do no. 3 ) and in desperation did the
raffle, which took so long that 1 turned into 3 and number 4 was born . I
was spending more time trying to sell raffle tickets than building EV's ,
After a while I got tired of the whole thing so I set a date ,tickets sold
or not , and the car was raffled at Fort Pierce's 2nd EV rally after years
of "quality sales and marketing" :-) . What is funny is what worked best
came next. I had repaired a city car for the local battery company here and
the manager ask me If I could sell it . Put an ad in EV trader and had lots
of calls. The first person that came by to look at it and had looked at
other city cars, took an ride in my 120v Mercury Lynx and couldn't believe
it and bought it. The person that won the raffle , I had forced them into
buying the ticket ( anyone wanting me to fix anything had to buy a ticket)
also wanted to sell it as they couldn't afford to insure it . Another person
looking for a city car bought it after riding in both. Both sold for less
that what the parts cost but at least they stayed on the road and I could
buy new parts for number 6 ( 5 is another story ) . I told the owner of the
Battery story that his city car was a hot item and it would probable sell
soon as all I had left was my EV work truck. "Sell it !! who told you to
sell it". Your manger I replied hoping not to get him in trouble. That was
a few years ago and things have been stead getting better but I'm still
looking for a way to make it happen.
.
>
> This list it about 85% focused on the engineering and scientific elements
> of Electric Vehicles, and about 15% on news events and larger EV community
> issues and politics.
and maybe 5% on how to get people interested and into EV's .
> Maybe Calcars or a similar organization will consider devoting some of its
> time to the effective marketing of the EV conversions already available.
> Lots of folks don't drive an EV just because they don't know about them or
> more accurately just don't know enough about them.
I guess I'm thinking a lot smaller , like in the town where I live. I see
(in my dreams)10 or 20 conversion running around with me keeping them up and
going. Maintance and repair if feel is a important part of the equation ,
>
> So that day I vowed that my next car would be an electric. I called the
> person selling the most expensive car on the EV Trading post that suited
> my needs. It was tremendously underpriced so I didn't mind flying from LA
> to Detroit to look at it and then shipping it back to LA.
I like that , why did you pick the most expensive , ? I believe this is a
good plan but one passed by most people.
I hope your EV has worked as good for you as it has for me.
> Most of these cars are undrepriced and sold at sacrafice prices. That's
> because of the lack of sales buzz. Right now there is a natural market
> blooming due to the gas price situation. A motivated sales person, or an
> engineer that needs money and can communicate effectively can fill up
> their bank by successfully marketing these cars.
My lawn bis is starting up again ( in the winter it gets slow so I have time
to do the EV thing) and today while driving around I talked to many people
about EV's . More than usual and got lot's of good questions from people who
had that hurt look in there eye.
Steve Clunn
I sometime forget it;s the ride not the distention
> joseph
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A thread with my name in it . I am flattered. My head is as big as an SUV
;- )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Vaughn-Perling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: Steve Clunn's list
> Steve, you made a great list of things that can be done to help the EV
> community. It seems that most of the problems with the items on that list
> have to do with the sales and marketing of the finished product. Raffles
> and such are not a great replacement for quality sales and marketing.
The list was of things that I had tried over the years . I wouldn't say that
they didn't work , but I would say they didn't work well . I worked at
selling my 2nd for years ( so I could do no. 3 ) and in desperation did the
raffle, which took so long that 1 turned into 3 and number 4 was born . I
was spending more time trying to sell raffle tickets than building EV's ,
After a while I got tired of the whole thing so I set a date ,tickets sold
or not , and the car was raffled at Fort Pierce's 2nd EV rally after years
of "quality sales and marketing" :-) . What is funny is what worked best
came next. I had repaired a city car for the local battery company here and
the manager ask me If I could sell it . Put an ad in EV trader and had a few
calls. The first person that came by to look at it and had looked at
other city cars, took an ride in my 120v Mercury Lynx , with only a city car
as a
frame of reference to EV's it was an easy sell.
The person that won the raffle , I had forced them into
buying the ticket ( at that time anyone wanting me to fix anything had to
buy a ticket)
also wanted to sell it as they couldn't afford to insure it and it was slow.
Another person
looking for a city car bought it after riding in both. Both sold for less
that what the parts cost but at least they stayed on the road and I could
buy new parts for number 6 ( 5 is another story ) . I told the owner of the
Battery story that his city car was a hot item and it would probable sell
soon as all I had left was my EV work truck. "Sell it !! who told you to
sell it". Your manger I replied hoping not to get him in trouble. That was
a few years ago and things have been stead getting better but I'm still
looking for a way to make it happen and still cutting lawns.
.
>
> This list it about 85% focused on the engineering and scientific elements
> of Electric Vehicles, and about 15% on news events and larger EV community
> issues and politics.
What about 5% on how to get people interested and into EV's ? . I forward
lots of the EV stories to people who are not on the list but interested in
them . You post might just be the thing that somebody reads and says "yes
I'm going to do it to" .
> Maybe Calcars or a similar organization will consider devoting some of its
> time to the effective marketing of the EV conversions already available.
> Lots of folks don't drive an EV just because they don't know about them or
> more accurately just don't know enough about them.
I am think that marketing also needs to be done in the town where the cars
will be.
So the person buying the car know's there will be somebody to fix it. If
right now the (a ) fuse was blown on my car
and I decided to have somebody else fix it, finding an EV mechanic near
were I live would be very hard. I'd have to get some talented golf cart
mechanic and hope that he'd look at it. I am wondering if any one has heard
of an EV repair shop in Florida> -) .Part of effective marketing might be
organizing a list of EV repair shops.
>
> So that day I vowed that my next car would be an electric. I called the
> person selling the most expensive car on the EV Trading post that suited
> my needs. It was tremendously underpriced so I didn't mind flying from LA
> to Detroit to look at it and then shipping it back to LA.
I like that , lets hope others take the same vow.
> Most of these cars are undrepriced and sold at sacrifice prices. That's
> because of the lack of sales buzz.
also buyers . I wonder if people are thinking that buying an already
converted car is not going to be as
much fun as doing it all them self's ? What keeps people for going forward
to an EV?
Here is my latest plan, it wasn't on the list and hasn't really been tried.
I have noticed that Russ , Jon and Dusty really like working on there cars.
They don't want somebody to do all the work but want to help do it . For
them working on there EV's with me is just plane fun. Always I hear " I had
so much fun this weekend ya ya ya " . I am wondering if am EV bed and
breakfast might work. Like a winter vacation. Some one could bring there
soon to be ev on a dolly . enjoy a week of Florida sand and sun while
getting the hard stuff done on there EV project. Send mom and the kids to
see the rat (Disney world) or4 to the beach while we get the motor in and
maybe some battery boxes. tow the car home and you've had one exciting
vacation.
> Right now there is a natural market
> blooming due to the gas price situation. A motivated sales person, or an
> engineer that needs money and can communicate effectively can fill up
> their bank by successfully marketing these cars.
My lawn bis is starting up again and while driving around talking to my
customers and other people
about EV's they seem to be more interested . I got lot's of good questions
from people who
had that hurt look in there eye. They want to do something.
Steve Clunn
I sometime forget it;s the ride not the distention
> joseph
>
>
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Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Are the I2R losses the main reason why, for efficiency, that
> we should run our motors at higher rpms where the motor voltage
> tends to be higher and motor amps lower?
Like everything, it's a tradeoff. At low rpm, I^2R losses are higher,
but cooling fan losses are lower. At high rpm, the situation reverses.
Somewhere in between is an efficiency peak.
And you can't just give it as a particular rpm for peak efficiency,
because it changes with current.
> coming up my steep hill to my apt, coming up it in 2nd gear rather
> than 1st, both the controller and motor are a bit cooler than if I
> do it in first.
Could be lots of things. The transmission is more efficient in 2nd gear
than in 1st. The motor's internal cooling fan isn't consuming as much
power at lower rpm. You might climb the hill at a different speed. The
motor and controller might actually be making more heat in 2nd, but you
get home quicker and check their temperature before the heat has had
time to reach the outside. Or, it may just be a consequence of getting a
running start, and mostly coasting up the hill.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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The ruff draft got out along with the finnished post , delete the first.
sorry
Steve Clunn
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Watching Dennis do a burn-out in the parking lot was fun. Oops, was I not
supposed to say that. :-)
A fun time was had by all. It was worth driving the 1186 Miles. Oh, and
since you asked Dennis, My mileage on the return home was 40.6 mpg with the
550+ pounds of batteries added. That is addition to the Scooter and me. I
figure the payload to be about 800. My Prius had to work harder on the
hills, but handled fine. My read on the mileage is that the head wind on
the way to Phoenix was about equal to a load of batteries.
I think I am going to go to sleep now. 34 hours of driving in three days
is enough to tire my old bones. I would do it again. The car show was a
nice surprise. Sorry I can't make Las Vegas.
At 06:55 AM 3/30/2003, you wrote:
The Current Eliminator ran six times yesterday.Mph#s were over 130.After the
races I took the CE over to the wild car show in Scotsdale.Evs had a large
section of the lot were I met many old an new friends.This informal every
weekend car show is a must see if your in Pho. on a sat. nite.The Current
Eliminator will be on the Firebird raceway track on Fri.nite,april4th.Five
hot runs are planned. Dennis Kill A Watt Berube
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On Saturday 29 March 2003 16:38, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How is it that politicians and big auto companies think they can produce
> a
> "high tech" Fuel Cell powered EV when they can't (or just don't want to)
> produce a simpler low tech Battery powered EV at a reasonable price.
> Is this just another way to give auto companies and fuel cell companies
> money to work on fuel cells.
The only reason the car companies trumpet fuel cell vehicles as the way to go
is because of the pressure of the oil companies. If we all drove cars that
can get "the juice" at home out of an outlet than we eliminate one big money
maker the oil industry. If we all drove fuel cell cars we would still need to
drive to the gas *akhem* hydrogen station. And guess who is going to supply
hydrogen for you car? You guessed it, the shells and the chevrons.
Now why is the governmet trumpeting fuel cells as the future, well because the
government is the "oil company". Not trying to start a flame here- I don't
have anything against hydrogen-electric cars, but it a bit too conspicuous
why the EV's are being canceled by all the car manufacturers.
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
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Alan,
All of the 22 US145s in my pack have the S post (aka
the universal terminal - the post is round but the
sides have been cut to have two flat surfaces 3/4
of the post down, and there is a hole through the
postthat runs from flat surface to flat surface)
I am using 00 gauge cables crimped with flat blade
lugs. I am drawing up to 300 battery amps with my
600 amp controller. The post and cables are the same
temperature: Warm but not hot. I have no problems
when climbing the Sunol grade or Hwy 9 to Skyline
blvd (each is full power for 15 minutes.
You said you draw more current than I and Peter is
concerned with the amount of metal surface area at
that higher current.
Perhaps you can double the cables, one on each side
of the post to increase the metal to metal surface
area contact.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
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> All of the 22 US145s in my pack have the S post (aka
> the universal terminal - the post is round but the
> sides have been cut to have two flat surfaces 3/4
> of the post down, and there is a hole through the
> postthat runs from flat surface to flat surface)
>
I could be wrong, but I believe he is talking about the 'other' kind of
universal terminal. The type that looks like a automotive terminal with
a stainless steel bolt sticking out the top (the head of which is buried
in the terminal).
All of my older Torjan 875's came with these as well as my Deka's. The
newer Trojans come with a similar terminal, only instead of the lead
being the full automotive terminal height, these ones are only maybe 1/2
tall.
The guy at the Golf cart store says that all of the golf carts just use
the 5/16 bolt for attaching cables anyway, so Trojan is cutting costs
and not supplying them with the full height terminals anymore.
Don't know if this is true or not, just repeating what he said.
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Raybold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: smart charger options?
> hello everyone, ive been lurking here for a few years working up the
courage
> (and the cash) to buy an ev. i just bought mark peterson's beautiful fiat
> spider conversion last night. the batteries are too low to be charged by
the
> simple charger he has, but he suggested a smart charger might be able to
> bring them up to a workable state (degraded range/speed). since i think id
> want to get some sort of smart charrging system in before buying new
> batteries anyway, if i can get one now, and limp along with the weak
battery
> back for a few months to save up some more $ for batteries, that would be
> quite useful.
>
> its got a double string of deep cycle optimas, 120v. more details at:
> http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm
That looks like a very nice conversion. Is that the 336 DCP or the 156 v\
Why is it not hooked for 240 >?
One idea for the battery problem would be to pull out the skinkers (bad
one's ) and go with a higher voltage
say out of the 20 there are 15 with life still in them . The car will run
much better with 15 old but still kicking that 20/5 dead.
It dosn't sound like that simple charger was/is able to cook the live back
into them. What You need is a good battery charger that can put out 20
amps and that you can set to any voltage 72/336v . do all the stuff Lee says
to get the batteries back awake then start weeding out the bad one's . as
you just got the car you probable just want to enjoy it . If you've been
lurking on the list then you probable have heard about the PFC -20 . If
those batteries have had a life of bad boy charging than they may come back
with some good hard charging. If you do nothing but get a PFC (so you can
switch to higher voltages later) you will be able to charge them good to
start with . I have not seen one used PFC for sale . know why?
> from what ive read, it all depends on what your priorities are. my first
> priority would be making the battery pack last as long as possible, second
> would be depth of charge, third would be time to charge. i do have a 22v
> outlet available (or will if it will help :)
a good charger makes the pack last .
> ive looked at: http://www.innevations.com/chargers.html but im unable to
> determine which would be best suited for my car. what have you all found
to
> be the best option for making an optima pack last as long as possible?
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> --travis
>
>
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Four years is a long time for a battery to sit without being charged. The
odds of getting full capacity is slim to none. The longest I have had an AGM
sit and still put out rated capacity is about 18 months. After that, it gets
progressively worse.
The first thing you need is test equipment.
You need a charger that has current and voltage controls on it. Probably two
separate chargers that work at pack voltage and at battery voltage (since
most charger won't work over such a wide voltage range.)
You need a loads that pull about 25 amps at pack voltage (for doing pack
tests) and at the battery voltage (for doing individual batteries).
You need a way of measuring voltage and current. An emeter with a serial
port and plotting software on a PC works well.
If you can program the PC to open and close relays to enable and disable the
charger and load, it greatly reduces the human monitoring requirements.
The next thing you need is a process. The following assumes you want to test
the pack as a group.
Lee Hart explained it very well in his post to the EV list at Sunday, March
30, 2003 5:12 PM about Smart Charge Options?
You need to charge the batteries until they all reach at least 14 volts per
12 volt block and under 1 amp. First you do them as a group and then
individually.
Then you need to discharge them as a group until the first battery goes
under 10.5 volts.
Repeat the previous two steps until improvement stalls.
If the same battery is stopping the discharge test every time, remove it and
test the remaining batteries.
If you have the time, you can test them individually. This takes longer but
gives individual results for each battery. It is more thorough and is more
easily automated.
An example of bringing back an optima from the dead, look at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/25%20cycles%20on%20YT%2019.xls
I put 25 cycles on this battery and it came up to almost 40 ampere hours
from 1.7 ampere hours on the initial test.
I have an automated tester that controls these tests but I have to manually
put the data into excel to see plots.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:36 PM
Subject: Bringing Old Lead Back To Life
Here's a question for the group's battery experts.
I have 52 Champion (GNB) Absolyte M83CHP12V27 batteries. They were used for
a very short time as traction batteries and were good when they were taken
out of service four years ago. They have not been charged in that time and
are now all setting at about 6.5V each.
Can batteries in this condition be brought back to life? And if so, what is
the best way to do it?
I always hate to throw away something if it can be reused.
Dan Bortel
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You can kill batteries in many ways:
You can let a dead battery sit uncharged for many months.
You can freeze a dead battery and break the case.
You can drop a battery and break the case.
You can pull too much current out of a battery and blow the intercell
connectors.
You can have a loose terminal heat up and melt a terminal.
You can overdischarge a battery and reverse a cell.
You can contaminate a flooded battery and short a cell.
You can overcharge a battery causing it to dry out.
You can undercharge a battery causing sulfation.
A good charger can help control only the last two. If you commit the other
sins, the charger will not help.
I know there are more ways to kill a battery that I have not done
personally.
Others with more experience might be able to add to the list.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: smart charger options?
> > from what ive read, it all depends on what your priorities are. my first
> > priority would be making the battery pack last as long as possible,
second
> > would be depth of charge, third would be time to charge. i do have a 22v
> > outlet available (or will if it will help :)
>
> a good charger makes the pack last .
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