EV Digest 2697
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electric Bicycle
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) The car that could EV1 and Dave Goldstein?
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Bicycle
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wayland battery weight 57.2 KWh Capacity
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Bicycle
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ampabout
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electric Bicycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
by Jeremy Burtenshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Bicycle
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Bringing Old Lead Back To Life
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Donations
by "Jared Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) plugging in Zivan K2 after other chargers
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: plugging in Zivan K2 after other chargers
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Henny Electric
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Donations
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Henny Electric
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Henny Electric
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) TEVan featured on Mopar site
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) range extender ready to go on ebay 2519945535
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A management coup six months ago couldn't have saved Corbin Motors
and the Sparrow. It might have six years ago when the concept of the
Sparrow was newly hatched.
Thomas Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
> I've seen the screwups, at least from a distance, but I just can't agree
> with this sentiment. Though I'm no business expert, I wonder if it might
> have been possible to remove Corbin as CEO and replace him with someone
who
> could more effectively manage the company and hire engineers who could
deal
> with the car's problems. I find it hard to believe that they were
entirely
> unsolveable.
>
> If a management coup had been conducted, say, six months ago, Corbin
Motors
> and the Sparrow might have been saved. Now it's just more grist for
> Detroit's anti-EV mill: "See? That just proves that you can't make a
> business of EVs."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
I have looked at a lot of e bike sites too, but hey it doesn't matter.
I really liked their math's on this one though their bike on 36 volts with
76 amp hours does up to 200 kilometers on a charge at 24 kph and at 48 volts
with 120 amp hours does 75 kph with a range of 250 kilometers.
I seem to remember using a rule of double the voltage to get double the
speed and being told that due to aerodynamic resistance, that increases at
the square of the speed increase, that this was not what could be obtained
in the real world and that somewhere between quarter and half the speed
increase was all that was likely for double the voltage.
These guys without doubling their voltage or amperage are more than doubling
their speed on the same platform and claiming additional range of 25% on top
of this.
I guess it could be a misprint or a typo, because I might accept 150
kilometers here, but that's a huge mistake to make.
So for double the power here, in watts, these guys are claiming more than 3
times the speed with an additional 50 kilometer range .. I don't think so
.... but the math's looks good :)
Interestingly you say "scooters are inefficient", but I would point out here
that most scooters use the same motors made by the same companies as the
bike drives and these guys used a Taiwan motor in their tests not something
expensive and 98% efficient.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just started reading the book by Michail Shnayerson regarding the EV1.
In the acknowlegdments section it mentioned Dave Goldstein.
I'm just wondering if this is the same guy on the list with a TEVan?
Rod
P.S. Thanks Dave for the Mopar part number on the transmission switch for
the TEVan!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I really liked their math's on this one though their bike on 36 volts with
> 76 amp hours does up to 200 kilometers on a charge at 24 kph and at 48 volts
> with 120 amp hours does 75 kph with a range of 250 kilometers.
>
> I seem to remember using a rule of double the voltage to get double the
> speed and being told that due to aerodynamic resistance, that increases at
> the square of the speed increase, that this was not what could be obtained
> in the real world and that somewhere between quarter and half the speed
> increase was all that was likely for double the voltage.
>
As usual you are remembering wrong...again. It takes four times the
power to go double the speed. With a good high efficiency PM motor,
doubling the voltage pretty much means double the speed (and double the
current).
With a series wound motor, speed and voltage are not so closely linked,
but doubling the voltage applied to the motor will come close to
doubling the speed (and again nearly double the current)
The rule was that doubling your speed cuts your RANGE at least in half
(assuming the exact same pack). Shoot, you can get twice the speed form
the same voltage by simply changing your gearing or your PWM ratio.
I am going to bet that these bicycles have a PWM controller on them so
pack voltage can have almost nothing to do with rated speed/range.
> These guys without doubling their voltage or amperage are more than doubling
> their speed on the same platform and claiming additional range of 25% on top
> of this.
>
Again you have missed the point. They don't have to double anything to
get double the speed. However, they are more than doubling there total
Watt hours which is what matters when it comes to range.
Yes I know you find watts totally confusing and prefer to talk about AV
(?!?) but Watt Hours are what counts when it comes to range.
36V * 76AH = 2736Wh, 48V * 120AH = 5760 Wh.
It's entirely possible that the motor operates more efficiently at the
higher power and voltage and this (and the 210% more energy storage)
could easily account for the 25% greater range.
> I guess it could be a misprint or a typo, because I might accept 150
> kilometers here, but that's a huge mistake to make.
What you can accept is of little importance.
I mean sheesh, you built a "little 3 wheeler" that, by your own account,
requires more energy to go 12 km than my 1500 kg Pickup truck does to go
the same distance.
>
> So for double the power here, in watts, these guys are claiming more than 3
> times the speed with an additional 50 kilometer range .. I don't think so
> .... but the math's looks good :)
Not yours, that's for sure.
>
> Interestingly you say "scooters are inefficient", but I would point out here
> that most scooters use the same motors made by the same companies as the
> bike drives and these guys used a Taiwan motor in their tests not something
> expensive and 98% efficient.
>
And the bike drives suck too. I've seen independent testing that
indicates that only 25% to 50% of the power coming from the batteries
makes it to the pavement. 25%!?!?! That's pathetic (that's ZAP).
Just because something sells successfully doesn't mean it's anywhere
near efficient. I'm not talking 98% efficient here, merely 85-90%.
This is well within the range of affordable even if it is twice as
expensive as the current crop of e-cycle/e-scooter drives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
> On 1 Apr 2003 at 15:48, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
> > I must say, I rejoice in the passing of Corbin.
>
> I've seen the screwups, at least from a distance, but I just can't agree
> with this sentiment. Though I'm no business expert, I wonder if it might
> have been possible to remove Corbin as CEO and replace him with someone
who
> could more effectively manage the company and hire engineers who could
deal
> with the car's problems. I find it hard to believe that they were
entirely
> unsolveable.
I think it was too late.
And the problems weren't unsolvable at ALL! That's why I rejoice in the
death of Corbin - because Corbin Motors _knew_ of the problems they had and
made little or no attempts to solve them, and because Corbin continued to
accept deposits for vehicles long after it was clear that their production
capacity was gone and the vehicles were unreliable.
> If a management coup had been conducted, say, six months ago, Corbin
Motors
> and the Sparrow might have been saved. Now it's just more grist for
> Detroit's anti-EV mill: "See? That just proves that you can't make a
> business of EVs."
No matter what, Corbin fed that mill. I don't know what the average MTBF on
the sparrow was, but I do know of the three SEVA members who drive them, a
average of one has one operable at any given time, it seems like.
Let's hope that the next person to make a single-occupant EV tries for at
least half the reliability of a gas car? :-)
Personally, I'm crossing my fingers that the Tango manages to get into
production.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a URL to read all about it?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:51 AM
Subject: Wayland battery weight 57.2 KWh Capacity
>
> Cooperating with famous University in China, Powerzinc has successfully
> developed zinc-air fuel cell powered, all-Electric passenger car.
>
>
> Range per refuel:up to 400km
> Current max speed: 70km/h (Will be upgraded to >120km/h)
> Battery Capacity: 57.2KWh
> Battery Weight: 280kg
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
100 plus 110 may equal 210 but it doesn't mean you now have 210% extra power
in your batteries it would be more like 110% more and by your own account
you cant increase the range and the speed ( by a factor of 3 ) from the same
increase in battery power, so for a little over double the watts this is
doing more than 3 times the speed and 25% extra range and you want to now
argue that this is possible. ok I agree its possible, but not probable.
Your truck uses less power to go 12 k that's cool ... but my little 3
wheeler runs for half a day with only 2 batteries.
My motor is 19 volts at 15 amps and runs for 4 hours or so, probably a bit
longer from two 12 volt 60 ? amp hour, cheap car batteries, the math's says
at full draw I would get a little over 5 hours from this, but when you are
cruising around with lots of starts and stops for 4 hours, its acceptable
that you might lose a bit of run time to additional current drawn to
accelerate the weight to speed and of course in the real world, the road
isn't flat and the wind doesn't always blow from behind you.
I don't really think that's inefficient, its just reality, but of course in
theory I can run for up to 5.5 hours on this and even more if it is all down
hill with the wind behind me, but it would be a long push back :).
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 02:45:00PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> But I don't know why corbin is going with chapter 7 rather then 11,12 or
> 13. I wish they were allowed in CT so I could have had one or could get one.
The web site said their assets were seized so they didn't have anything to
continue with...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I just love reading about Bruce's travels....thanks for sharing, Bruce, I felt like I
was
along for the ride!
See Ya...John Wayland
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> This morning I woke up early in anticipation of the
> orientation class. So left early to get a head start.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No joke. Zinc air has 8 times the capacity of lead acid. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Bicycle
> Forget the fuel cell; I want to know how they got an electric bicycle to
go
> 250 KM on 1,800Wh! Must be April Fool's Day.
>
> Tim
>
> ----------
> >From : "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject : Electric Bicycle
> Date : Tue, 1 Apr 2003 06:48:50 -0800
>
>
> Range per refuel: up to 250 KM
> Average 7 - 10 days per refuel
> < 3 Min per refuel
> No need to wait for 8 hours or to drag 15Kg upstairs
> Life-time warranty
> Never need to replace!
>
> Fuel Cell Specification:
> Norminal Voltage: 24V
> Energy: 1800Wh / 76Ah (C5)
> Weight: 10.7 Kg
> Size: 30 x 18 x 15 cm
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Been reading the old logs but have not come up with any reasonable circuit
diagrams for motor control. I am building a simple electric bike to begin
with, and have the electronic knowledge, but I need some ideas to work with.
Can anybody help?
Jeremy, Perth Western Australia
P.S. Is it ok for me to put a message like this on the list?
------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi All
>
> Been reading the old logs but have not come up with any reasonable circuit
> diagrams for motor control. I am building a simple electric bike to begin
> with, and have the electronic knowledge, but I need some ideas to work
with.
>
> Can anybody help?
>
> Jeremy, Perth Western Australia
well, over at evtech, we have a diagram from Lee Hart you're welcome to take
a look at
http://www.brassrat.net/~evtech/phorum/download.php/1,9,8/SCRDCctl.pdf
It's SCR-based, and thusly is more than a bit out of the current vogue, but
it still bears glancing at. Certainly if built it will work.
I don't know of anyone that's posted a MOSFET schematic, although I might
just not have my finger on the pulse of the electrons. If you find one,
please let me know.
Same story with IGBTs, although I may be taking a stab at a 48V IGBT
controller sometime this year, just to prove how foolish I am.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 100 plus 110 may equal 210 but it doesn't mean you now have 210% extra power
> in your batteries it would be more like 110% more and by your own account
Oops, you got me on that one. I meant to say 210% of the power, not
210% more power.
> you cant increase the range and the speed ( by a factor of 3 ) from the same
> increase in battery power, so for a little over double the watts this is
> doing more than 3 times the speed and 25% extra range and you want to now
> argue that this is possible. ok I agree its possible, but not probable.
>
Well I finally was able to get into their website. They are NOT talking
about the same bike, they are talking about two totally different
bikes. a 36V Chinese scooter and a 48V Taiwanese scooter. Since they
are totally different bikes you can't make any kind of apples to apples
comparison.
My experience shows that even the same motor will usually be more
efficient when run on 48V over 36V so I would not be at all surprised
that a totally different bike could be much more efficient.
> Your truck uses less power to go 12 k that's cool ... but my little 3
> wheeler runs for half a day with only 2 batteries.
Yeah but my truck is traveling at close to 100 kph. You might be able
to run for 1/2 a day, but I can cover the same distance in about 20
minutes.
Your figures add up to slightly over 2kw to go 12km. For us Yanks that
works out to 288 wh per mile at 20 mph. My truck averages 260 wh per
mile at 55 mph.
My scratch built three wheeler only needs about 15 wh per mile to travel
at 20 mph.
Your three wheeler must be operating at about 10% efficiency, that sucks
in anyone's book.
>
> My motor is 19 volts at 15 amps and runs for 4 hours or so, probably a bit
> longer from two 12 volt 60 ? amp hour, cheap car batteries, the math's says
> at full draw I would get a little over 5 hours from this, but when you are
> cruising around with lots of starts and stops for 4 hours, its acceptable
> that you might lose a bit of run time to additional current drawn to
> accelerate the weight to speed and of course in the real world, the road
> isn't flat and the wind doesn't always blow from behind you.
>
> I don't really think that's inefficient, its just reality, but of course in
> theory I can run for up to 5.5 hours on this and even more if it is all down
> hill with the wind behind me, but it would be a long push back :).
You might not think that 285 watts to go 8.6 kph is inefficient, but
just about everybody else does. My three wheeler travels at over 30 kph
on about the same power, and I'm having problems with a dragging brake.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I posted a 48 Volt MOSFET controller schematic a while back.
Why would you use an IGBT at 48 volts? That is MOSFET territory.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Circuit Diagrams For Motor Controllers
> > Hi All
> >
> > Been reading the old logs but have not come up with any reasonable
circuit
> > diagrams for motor control. I am building a simple electric bike to
begin
> > with, and have the electronic knowledge, but I need some ideas to work
> with.
> >
> > Can anybody help?
> >
> > Jeremy, Perth Western Australia
>
> well, over at evtech, we have a diagram from Lee Hart you're welcome to
take
> a look at
> http://www.brassrat.net/~evtech/phorum/download.php/1,9,8/SCRDCctl.pdf
>
> It's SCR-based, and thusly is more than a bit out of the current vogue,
but
> it still bears glancing at. Certainly if built it will work.
>
> I don't know of anyone that's posted a MOSFET schematic, although I might
> just not have my finger on the pulse of the electrons. If you find one,
> please let me know.
>
> Same story with IGBTs, although I may be taking a stab at a 48V IGBT
> controller sometime this year, just to prove how foolish I am.
>
> S.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of motor controller were you thinking of?
FWIW building your own PWM motor controller is often more expensive than
buying one. The guys that design motor controllers for a living say
that they go through about a 5lb coffee can worth of MOSFETs when
debugging a new design. High power MOSFETs aint cheap.
Add to that trying to find a cheap source of low ESR capacitors in small
quantities...
There are a couple, three folks on this list the build motor
controllers. I'm not one of them, I tried it and gave up when it got
expensive.
If you are determined to build your own (I hope for the educational
experience), ask away. One of them will probably answer your questions.
I'm not really trying to discourage you from trying (it a great learning
experience), just want to make sure you have realistic expectations.
That said, there is at least one guy on the list who made a controller
on the first try without letting the smoke out of it. I think he solved
that problem by throwing lots of silicon at it.
That's what I'd recommend for a one off design, build it to withstand at
least five times the current you expect to put through it.
And yes this is exactly the kind of message you should be putting on the
list.
On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 23:11, Jeremy Burtenshaw wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Been reading the old logs but have not come up with any reasonable circuit
> diagrams for motor control. I am building a simple electric bike to begin
> with, and have the electronic knowledge, but I need some ideas to work with.
>
> Can anybody help?
>
> Jeremy, Perth Western Australia
>
> P.S. Is it ok for me to put a message like this on the list?
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I posted a 48 Volt MOSFET controller schematic a while back.
Do you remember where? I'd love to add a link to it to evtech's collection.
> Why would you use an IGBT at 48 volts? That is MOSFET territory.
For the learning experience. ;-)
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The parts list is follows:
-Big Charger (I use a Todd PC-40 with a voltage control pot)
-Diode capable of passing big charger current (must be on a heat sink)
-Little charger (any 5 amp unit is fine) (only used for equalization
current)
-> 24 ohm rheostat rated for little charger current (adjusts equalization
current)(multiple 1157 bulbs are OK
-Variable load (I use a 99 amp active load) (multiple car headlights are OK)
-Circuit breaker (I use a 75 amp manual reset circuit breaker)
-2 contactors rated for charger current and load current (RV solenoids)
-MSDOS box, 4 MHz minimum
-emeter with shunt and fuses
-12 to 24 volt fused power supply to run emeter and contactors
-2 LEDs
-2 NPN darlington transistors
-2 resistors for the LEDs (to limit current to 20 mA at the power supply
voltage)
-2 free wheel diodes (1n4001)
-DB9 cable from emeter to PC serial port
-DB25 plug for PC parallel port
-#6 wire for load carrying conductors (lower current can use lighter wire)
-#20 wire for the rest of the connections
If enough people are interested, I can post the schematic of the control
panel, the electronic load and an executable version of the software.
As far as cost goes, the only thing I had to buy was the emeter. The rest of
it was laying around the shop.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: Bringing Old Lead Back To Life
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > I have an automated tester that controls these tests but I have to
> > manually put the data into excel to see plots.
>
> Joe, I seem to remember that a few weeks ago you offered to make the
> plans for your tester available to somebody if they wanted to build one
> of their own. Is that offer available to others? If so, can you give a
> rough idea of what components are needed and how much it might cost
> to build? I'd like to do some proper testing for the Sunrace team if it's
> possible to do it on a low budget.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
> LRW at clear.net.nz
> "Do you like cat?"
> "Yes, I quite like cats."
> "Leg or breast?"
> Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any ideas of who would donate an EV or NEV. I volunteer
with an non-profit Emergency Medical Services group in Los Angeles that
specializes in special events. One thing they do is patrol foot race
course, but the fumes bother the runners. They are a non-profit all
volunteer group, any ideas on who might donate a vehicle?
-Jared
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some recollection that we touched on this topic briefly in
some way a year or two ago but could not find it in my EVDL email
folder with a quick search.
Anyways, I still haven't figured out why a Zivan K2 plugged in
after a non-isolated charger, such as the K&W BC-20 or RUSSCO, is
plugged in, will yellow-light (at least it doesn't start up after
up after the "test" phase). If the Zivan is plugged in first,
then the non-isolated charger, things are hunky-dory. I ran into
this problem several times, say with the chargers plugged in on
opposite sides of neutral of a 14-50 240VAC outlet, although I
think it also happened just being plugged in to different 120V
outlets. I would imagine that two K2s plugged in one after the
other are ok - Bruce should know. But what would be going on
with a K&W or RUSSCO that would upset a K2 - hash on the DC line
or some kind of imbalance?
This problem bit me once many years ago, when I had the Zivan K2
and the K&W BC-20 both charging my EV off the 240VAC 14-50
outlets with GFI protection at Calstart in Alameda. Went inside
to the EAA meeting, came back out some 30 minutes later to check
the chargers, and apparently somebody had turned off my outlet
box for a moment, turned it back on, the K&W fired up instantly,
and the Zivan dumped. So I was charging off of one 120V charger,
not two.
It's more of an academic interest now, but the EVList is a good
place to ask, and I haven't found out yet asking anywhere else.
So any ideas from the enlightened folks?
Thanks,
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have several chargers on board with their outlets in
parallel, and I have extensive experience in charging
with the EV chargers that are readily available off the
shelf.
The Zivan K2 is an older model charger that was available
before the NG series (NG2, NG5). A 220VAC K2 model outputs
400 w less than a NG3 (off a 208VAC source, I get 15 amps
at 150VDC or about 2.25kw though it is supposedly a 2.5kw
charger).
Chuck wrote:
>the chargers plugged in on opposite sides of neutral of
a 14-50 240VAC outlet, although I think it also happened
just being plugged in to different 120V outlets.<
-
So, I will assume you are using a 120VAC K2 model.
Zivan chargers were designed to be used by themselves.
They weren't designed to be paralleled (but that does
not stop me from do it).
So, there are times you have to work with their qwirks.
Because they are a 'smart' charger, you have to trick
them into behaving the way you want (when in a parallel
charging configuration).
First, verify that your AC input wiring is correct. If
the neutral and hot lead were reversed this could cause
problems when in parallel with an unisolated charger.
The surface voltage is another issue that can cause the
Zivan 'smart' charger to get confused and misbehave.
If the other chargers in parallel with the Zivan are
raising the surface voltage, the Zivan will see the
highest peak voltage.
This becomes very apparent when a non-PFC (power
factor corrected) charger is used, like a bad-boy,
spikey auto transformer, light-dimmer (BC-20 or
Russco), or another Zivan.
Those non-PFC chargers push all their power at the
center part of the AC wave rather than a smooth
flow as with a PFC charger (a light-dimmer pushes all
its power in a 10% of the wave spike. 100amps for 10%
of the wave averages to 10 amps). Those current spikes
cause a surface voltage spike, which are what the
Zivan's smarts see (not the average as you would want.
Thus, the zivan tapers too soon).
The yellow K2 led means the charger has gone to its
last charging stage, and is trying to do a long slow
finishing / balancing charge.
I have had success in charging with a 120VAC K2 model
and a K&W BC-20. But up to a point in the charge
curve.
With a depleted pack, the first half of the charge
goes fine. It isn't until the latter half when the
surface voltage of the pack is high enough, that the
K&W BC-20's spikes are seen by the K2 circuitry.
I can also see this when paralleling more than one
Zivan charger. It usually is better to start
disconnecting / turning off chargers, than have a
confused charger setup.
Since the K&W puts out much less power than the 120VAC
K2 for the power in, I would turn off the BC-20 and
use the K2 for the latter part of the charge.
Always remember to turn the Zivans off and then back on
after making a change. This resets their charging
circuitry to zero.
If you just turn off a charger on the fly, the Zivan
still remembers and stays at the at its lower charge
current output level. Reset it after turning off one
of the chargers, and the Zivan will usually give you
more output current.
Example: If I have two 120VAC Zivan K2's, a Zivan
NG5, and a PFC-50 all going at the same time, as
soon as my 132V pack voltage reaches 150VDC, the
Zivan chargers start tapering down their output
charge currents.
I then turn off my 120VAC K2 chargers, and reset all
the other chargers. The result is the PFC-50 keeps
plowing along, and the Zivan NG5 finds its own
'happy place' which is at a higher current than it
was before.
...
If your wiring is right, and you are seeing the K2
acting funny, I would take the BC-20 out of the
setup, reset the K2 and see how it performs.
It is better to have a happy K2, than a BC-20
charge current. Not only does the K2 put out more,
the K2 is a smart charger and will properly charge
the pack with a multistage finishing charge.
BC-20 and Russcos don't really do a complete finishing
charge. The pack gets charged, but it isn't balanced
with a slight overcharge current for four hours.
(for information on batteries, see
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt )
...
If you have multiple small outlets and not one large
outlet, multiple chargers is the only way to get more
charge current (ie: two 120VAC 20 amp outlets, instep
of one 220VAC 40 amps 14-50 outlet).
One might say, get rid of the light dimmer chargers
and go with a PFC charger. Well, not everyone has the
cash, or wants to do the work to rip out the old
charger. But if you save and plan for it, it 'is'
wiser to move to the better chargers.
Remember 50% of your EV experience is driving, and the
other half is charging (putting the energy back).
In my case, since I mainly use a PFC-50 and a Zivan NG5
in parallel on two 14-50 sources, it is much less time
charging, and more driving.
While others might burn rubber and drive performance
circles around me, I can 'fast charge' circles around
them. So I speak from experience when I say,
'it really pays to have a better charger'.
Bad boys can upgrade to a light-dimmer.
Light-dimmers can upgrade to a Zivan.
And Zivans can upgrade to a PFC.
Or why don't you just do it right and move directly
to a PFC. It is an investment that really does pay
for its self quickly: Quicker charging, longer
lasting cords, plugs, outlets, breakers, flexibility
to adjust your charge current to any situation on
the fly, etc.
For the newbies:
No, I do not get anything for my efforts. I am not
'on the take' for any EV company. They know that
I will POST if I think it is a good product, and
I will POST if I think it is a BAD product.
ie:
http://manzanitamicro.com PFC-20 or PFC-50 good
evi ics-200 BAD
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I did it.
Much to my wife's chagrin, I purchased the 59 Henny electric on ebay.
Should be here in about 2-2 1/2 weeks.
Now, I know the batts need replacing as they only get about 5-10 miles now,
and I'm going to have to do minor brake work and some cosmetic work.
BUT!! I want to ask the group what they would recommend to replace the
stock charger. Yes, it still works and I'll keep it as a
curiosity, but I feel that even the "worst" charger available today has got
to be better than the best one from 1960!!.
I would love to put a pfc-20 in it, but with the car only being 72 volts
(and old) that seems a bit overkill. Does anyone have a good 110/220
charger that can handle a 72volt AND a 96 volt system (I hope to upgrade the
motor and the batts at some point and I intend to go 96 volts).
Also, any reccommendations on the "best" cost/value 6v golf cart batts to
put in this old girl.
Thanks in advance,
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he
does to the web, he does to himself.-- Anon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the LA Basin, there are a ton of groups who are
always trying to _collect_ dead or live cars. They
either fix them up to sell and keep their charities
running, or auction them, or sell for scrap. You
might be able to catch them. Examples are religious
groups, groups working for the blind, etc.
Time to do some digging; I think they might be able
to help you.
Good luck.
--- Jared Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have any ideas of who would donate an EV
> or NEV. I volunteer
> with an non-profit Emergency Medical Services group
> in Los Angeles that
> specializes in special events. One thing they do is
> patrol foot race
> course, but the fumes bother the runners. They are a
> non-profit all
> volunteer group, any ideas on who might donate a
> vehicle?
> -Jared
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC-20 is a very good choice for this application. It gives you the
variable input for wherever you plug in, but it can also handle the 72V
pack you have now and the 96V pack you want to put into it later. Shoots
down 2 birds with 1 bullet. Then as your EVGrin gets bigger you'll be
able to move it to your next car and it more than likely will be able to
handle that vehicle also.
Eric
> Well I did it.
>
> Much to my wife's chagrin, I purchased the 59 Henny electric on ebay.
>
> Should be here in about 2-2 1/2 weeks.
>
> Now, I know the batts need replacing as they only get about 5-10 miles
> now, and I'm going to have to do minor brake work and some cosmetic
> work.
>
> BUT!! I want to ask the group what they would recommend to replace the
> stock charger. Yes, it still works and I'll keep it as a
> curiosity, but I feel that even the "worst" charger available today has
> got to be better than the best one from 1960!!.
>
> I would love to put a pfc-20 in it, but with the car only being 72 volts
> (and old) that seems a bit overkill. Does anyone have a good 110/220
> charger that can handle a 72volt AND a 96 volt system (I hope to upgrade
> the motor and the batts at some point and I intend to go 96 volts).
>
> Also, any reccommendations on the "best" cost/value 6v golf cart batts
> to put in this old girl.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> James
>
>
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever
> he does to the web, he does to himself.-- Anon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I know, but that is one PRICY bullet. I think if I go that route, I
might have to dodge a few (much less expensive) bullet's from my wife!!
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he
does to the web, he does to himself.-- Anon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Eric Penne
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 9:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Henny Electric
The PFC-20 is a very good choice for this application. It gives you the
variable input for wherever you plug in, but it can also handle the 72V
pack you have now and the 96V pack you want to put into it later. Shoots
down 2 birds with 1 bullet. Then as your EVGrin gets bigger you'll be
able to move it to your next car and it more than likely will be able to
handle that vehicle also.
Eric
> Well I did it.
>
> Much to my wife's chagrin, I purchased the 59 Henny electric on ebay.
>
> Should be here in about 2-2 1/2 weeks.
>
> Now, I know the batts need replacing as they only get about 5-10 miles
> now, and I'm going to have to do minor brake work and some cosmetic
> work.
>
> BUT!! I want to ask the group what they would recommend to replace the
> stock charger. Yes, it still works and I'll keep it as a
> curiosity, but I feel that even the "worst" charger available today has
> got to be better than the best one from 1960!!.
>
> I would love to put a pfc-20 in it, but with the car only being 72 volts
> (and old) that seems a bit overkill. Does anyone have a good 110/220
> charger that can handle a 72volt AND a 96 volt system (I hope to upgrade
> the motor and the batts at some point and I intend to go 96 volts).
>
> Also, any reccommendations on the "best" cost/value 6v golf cart batts
> to put in this old girl.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> James
>
>
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever
> he does to the web, he does to himself.-- Anon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to Dave Davidson for providing the part number of my shift switch.
I did an internet search on the part number and came up with 1 good link.
It happened to be a dealership in RI.
I bought a couple of shift switches and provided information on my TEVan.
It is now featured as their 'Mopar of the month'.
http://www.buymopar.com/rides/index.html
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a heads up, not my auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2519945535&category=26198
Carl Clifford
Denver
--- End Message ---
