EV Digest 2814
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: air conditioning efficiency & motor requirements
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Anderson connector question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Batteries
by Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) additive to LiIons to be safer
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: battery gassing
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Used Fiero conversion value?
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ampabout
by "steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Used Fiero conversion value?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Batteries
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ampabout
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Used Fiero conversion value?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Used Fiero conversion value?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: battery gassing
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Batteries
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.sanden.com/
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Umm nice Lee, where's the capacity increase???? There should be some.
> > Joe has the Evercell test back on line, we peaked back up to 84
> > amphours, It got low for some reason, After are "abusive" load test.
> > The Art of these new chemistries is how hard do you push them to
> > increse in capacitiy, and still do no harm.
> > Victor and John say you need at least 5 cycles to fully wake up LiOn.
>
> I can only say what data sheet says - 5 cycles.
>
> My 2 cells working in ACRX didn't even have that - but since the
> rest of the pack was about 35Ah anyway, I didn't care.
>
> Personally, from what I've seen, I think 5 cycles aren't enough.
> Somewhere close to 20 - may be. BTW, thunder says *at least* 5 cycles.
>
> Victor
OK OK At least 5.
Lets find out how many to get to full amp hours.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> >As far as I know, I'm the first one charging these LiIon cells. I'm
>
> Well, I think Viktor is charging a bunch in parallel.
Actually, I started charging my 100 Ah cells on the bench (from Sorensen
supply) about 3 month ago (before put them in ACRX). But there was no
interest in the list about it.
I did connect all the cells in parallel and hooked to the power
supply, but mainly to stop discharging and equalize all.
96 90Ah cells is insane 3.6V 8,640Ah battery - it will take
a year for 30A supply to charge it.
So, no, I wouldn't call it charging.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
175A is more than enough, as well as 1/0 cable is overkill.
Gauge 4 is adequate, 2 is conservatively oversized.
1 is well oversized, 1/0 you never take advantage of.
Your battery current will not exceed 150A or so (with >300V pack).
280A is protection for inverter, but it draws less than that.
Victor
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I've seen Anderson SBX350 connectors called out in a number of
> designs. But most of those designs are for DC systems that must pull a
> good bit more than 350 Amps. Do these connectors do well above rated
> current? The reason I ask is that I'm doing an AC system, so battery
> current is limited at 288 Amps. I'd like to use 1/0 cable (even that is
> probably excessive), but only the SBX175 lists 1/0 as a valid wire
> size. Should I go with SBX350 and figure out how to crimp to a 1/0 cable,
> or go with SBX175 and run the connector at more than spec?
>
> I won't hold anyone liable for an answer, just looking for some guidance.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> I'm being forced to rethink my EV plans. No more 120V pack of T-105's
> on a raptor 600...if this is a Porsche, it's gotta have some kick,
> yet I also would like to be able make a 25-mile commute to work...
How are the Evercels coming along? A dozen of those might do the trick.
They don't have the current capacity of the Optimas, but they probably
have enough for "some kick" and the lack of a large Peukert effect means
you can push them a bit without losing much capacity.
Steve Gaarder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had no idea Bridgestone develops LiIon batteries, but found this:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/11/04/japan.bridgestone/index.html
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
96 90Ah cells is insane 3.6V 8,640Ah battery - it will take
a year for 30A supply to charge it.
Hmmm, 288 hours = 12 days = 1 year. That's odd math, is it the
newfangled metric year?
:-) just kidding.
I have a 80 amp 40V Sorenson here (uses 230V input) that I would be
willing to loan locally in case someone is doing Lithiums here in the
SF bay area and needs a power source. It has adjustable current
limit, and kelvin voltage sense, but I have not looked at how
accurate the voltage limit is.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Sell wrote Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:42 AM:
> I have 16 US125s (96v total) system with a Russco SC 18-120
charger.
> Near the end of a charging cycle, the charger's amp gauge reads
> 2 or 3 amps and my volt meter reads about 120 volts. If I put
my
> ear near the battery pack, I can hear a slight bubbly sound
(like
> an open soda can). Is this just normal end of cycle gassing?
Yes, once lead-acid chemistry gets above 2.35V/cell (temperature
and age affect this), it starts to gas. At this point, the
energy you put in from the charger increasingly goes more into
heat and gassing. Whether you need to gas them every charging
cycle is much discussed. With my 1st pack, I gassed them quite
hard every time, and got pretty good range. With my current
pack, my 2nd, I'm trying out the idea of not bringing them up
past the gassing point every cycle, but gassing them some at
about ~7.55V/battery on the weekends for a couple of hours, and
give them one equalization charge at ~7.7-7.8V/battery for two to
three hours. Can't really say which is superior, but I know I'm
suffering from two or three weak cells right now after two years
on this pack. I did turn the finish voltage up this weekend on
the Zivan K2 from about 110.5V to 111.8V for a 96V pack (112.8V
is the gassing point). I don't trust auto chargers to shut down,
so I just let mine sit at just below gassing once they finish
bulk charge overnight. May add in a timer at some point, since
the bulk charge is probably only about 3-4 hours. Some cells run
a little bit lower voltage, others higher too.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I recently posted about our intent to build a hybrid electric vehicle for
the Grassroots Motorsports magazine $2004 challenge. We're on a tight
budget, but we had a good place to start with our $25 88' Festiva. So we
were looking to find electric drive components for cheap prices to complete
the car. It turns out that someone DONATED a converted Fiero to our program
several years ago. After that the car was left to sit in the back lot, its
batteries were scavenged, and its essentially been a varmit hotel for the
pass few years (plenty of poop all over the interior).
For the contest, anything that is donated has to be subtracted from your
budget at a "fair market value". This is where I hope you guys and gals can
help, because my assessment of the vehicle's worth may be a little biased.
Let me know what you think its worth.
Early Pontiac Fiero
-black exterior (extreme paint damage), broken locks, overall poor condition
-grey interior (plenty of varmit poop), seat tears, overall poor condition
-5spd
-no batteries
-2 gauges for electric drive system (forgot which)
-Advanced DC motor FB1-4001, 120VDC, Class H, Serial # 284
-Curtis Controller, VDC 72-120, Current 400A, model 1221B-7401
-Onboard 120VAC charger
-DC/DC Converter, Sevcon 128/12V, Generation II, Isolate, Regulated
I can send pictures if you think that would help. Thanks a lot!
Brett
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> >96 90Ah cells is insane 3.6V 8,640Ah battery - it will take
> >a year for 30A supply to charge it.
>
> Hmmm, 288 hours = 12 days = 1 year. That's odd math, is it the
> newfangled metric year?
> :-) just kidding.
>
I know. I should have used word "forever" instead of "a year",
of course all I meant is unacceptably long.
My Sorensen's limit is 13.8A (it's 80V supply), but the
problem is in cell's parallel connection quality and voltage
drop as you physically move from near-source-cells to
the farthest (is it a right word?) ones.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> My Sorensen's limit is 13.8A (it's 80V supply), but the
> problem is in cell's parallel connection quality and voltage
> drop as you physically move from near-source-cells to the
> farthest (is it a right word?) ones.
Sounds like your present hookup is like this:
Sorensen + o---------+----+----+---- ------+
nearest cell cell cell farthest cell
Sorensen - o---------+----+----+---- ------+
Reconnect like this to force the current to divide more equally and the
voltage to be more uniform at all cells:
+----+----+---- ------+---o Sorensen +
nearest cell cell cell farthest cell
Sorensen - o---------+----+----+---- ------+
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you connect your cells ,plus at the closest cell and minus at the
far end of your cells would they not see the same current ?
Robert Salem
Quoting Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> My Sorensen's limit is 13.8A (it's 80V supply), but the
> problem is in cell's parallel connection quality and voltage
> drop as you physically move from near-source-cells to
> the farthest (is it a right word?) ones.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
...
> Sounds like your present hookup is like this:
>
> Sorensen + o---------+----+----+---- ------+
> nearest cell cell cell farthest cell
> Sorensen - o---------+----+----+---- ------+
No, I'm smarter than this :-)
> Reconnect like this to force the current to divide more equally and the
> voltage to be more uniform at all cells:
>
> +----+----+---- ------+---o Sorensen +
> nearest cell cell cell farthest cell
> Sorensen - o---------+----+----+---- ------+
Good idea, but the cells are not connected as above.
In a word, I have 4x24 matrix and + and - wiring
runs diagonally connecting 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 5, 3, 1
minuses and pluses. Then separate groups of those
combined minuses and pluses are interconnected by
jumpers from one end, and middles of that feeding
jumpers are connected to the Sorensen.
Hard to describe electrically. I'll let Rich describe
it, he's seen it and has a photo of that shelf =8O
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If terminated is the case I must tell you, while I realize it was unpleasant
to be job-hunting, and, not easy to get that job, you will find a better
one.
Take a look at the Dept of Energy the the EREN energy renewables database.
Gov't jobs are listed at http://www.usajobs.opm.gov. They now allow a
resume for the basic applications. That is, a gov't agency may still want
other forms and narrative essays, as well, but this is way better than it
used to be.
Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Ampabout
> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > It is very likely that I am terminated. Absences within the
> > first 90 days is not tolerated and are terminated at Home
> > Depot.
>
> WHAT?!!! That would be unfair dismissal here (I hope). Makes me
> glad I don't live in the USA.
>
> I have my fingers crossed for you, hope you get better soon. And I
> REALLY hope you don't lose your job.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
> LRW at clear.net.nz
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/460.html
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Good idea, but the cells are not connected as above.
>
> In a word, I have 4x24 matrix and + and - wiring
> runs diagonally connecting 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 5, 3, 1
> minuses and pluses. Then separate groups of those
> combined minuses and pluses are interconnected by
> jumpers from one end, and middles of that feeding
> jumpers are connected to the Sorensen.
Regardless, your present scheme results in unequal voltages being
applied to the cells, while the one I suggested should minimise the
voltage difference (in theory anyway ;^).
It seems to me that it would be straightforward to do even with your
4x24 matrix:
+----+----+---- ------+-----+
nearest cell cell cell farthest cell |
Sorensen - o---------+----+----+---- ------+-------+
| |
+-------------+----+----+---- ------+-----+ |
| nearest cell cell cell farthest cell |
| +-----------+----+----+---- ------+-------+
| |
+-|----------+----+----+---- ------+------+
| nearest cell cell cell farthest cell |
+-----------+----+----+---- ------+-------+
| |
Sorensen + o---------+----+----+---- ------+-----+ |
nearest cell cell cell farthest cell |
+----+----+---- ------+-------+
Of course, you are the one who must decide if the voltage imbalance is
significant enough to warrant reconnecting the pack (since it is your
time that will be consumed ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV parts-- controller, adapter plate, DCDC, contactor,
charger etc. have a value of $7K.
Nevertheless, the Fiero has a history of small
problems; brake cable gets stuck & some other minor
problems.
Most EVs on the Trading Post are going for between
4-6K _if_ they are running. This one is not.
I'd say $2500.
--- bholmber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
> I recently posted about our intent to build a hybrid
> electric vehicle for
> the Grassroots Motorsports magazine $2004 challenge.
> We're on a tight
> budget, but we had a good place to start with our
> $25 88' Festiva. So we
> were looking to find electric drive components for
> cheap prices to complete
> the car. It turns out that someone DONATED a
> converted Fiero to our program
> several years ago. After that the car was left to
> sit in the back lot, its
> batteries were scavenged, and its essentially been a
> varmit hotel for the
> pass few years (plenty of poop all over the
> interior).
>
> For the contest, anything that is donated has to be
> subtracted from your
> budget at a "fair market value". This is where I
> hope you guys and gals can
> help, because my assessment of the vehicle's worth
> may be a little biased.
> Let me know what you think its worth.
>
> Early Pontiac Fiero
> -black exterior (extreme paint damage), broken
> locks, overall poor condition
> -grey interior (plenty of varmit poop), seat tears,
> overall poor condition
> -5spd
> -no batteries
> -2 gauges for electric drive system (forgot which)
> -Advanced DC motor FB1-4001, 120VDC, Class H, Serial
> # 284
> -Curtis Controller, VDC 72-120, Current 400A, model
> 1221B-7401
> -Onboard 120VAC charger
> -DC/DC Converter, Sevcon 128/12V, Generation II,
> Isolate, Regulated
>
> I can send pictures if you think that would help.
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Brett
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More test data on my Thunder-Sky TS-LP90AP LiIon cells:
On my first 3 discharge cycles (without the conditioning charge cycles),
I got only about 48 amphours. The cells also heated up 40 deg.F (from 66
to 106 deg.F).
I finished charging all 4 cells according to Thunder-Sky's conditioning
instructions (charge at 27 amps until 4.3v, then hold 4.3v until the
current falls to 0.9a). The cells accepted about 80 amphours.
I then ran a discharge test on all 4 in series. The load was a resistor
that draws 25 amps at 12 volts. The test was terminated when the first
cell fell to 2.75v.
After one conditioning charge, they now yielded 87 amphours. A big
improvement!
However, they also got even hotter. Starting temperature was 69 deg.F;
ending temperature was 120 deg.F! This is at just a 25 amp load, and
with only 4 cells sitting on a concrete floor with plenty of free air
around them.
It's looking like these cells are going to need SUBSTANTIAL cooling.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 11:04 AM, damon henry wrote:
> So then I'm wondering how I could do range-wise with the same number
> of 75Ah group 31 YT's.
Range would certainly be better (more battery weight). But are these
batteries actually available? And has anyone tried them yet?
They are definitely available. At least one Ev'r has bought a new
pack of these after having built his EV around the original
prototypes. Unfortunately for him the size changed and he needed new
battery boxes. But that's not an issue in this case.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/206.html
Yes, and I'm pretty sure I saw them for sale online somewhere. But
could these give me the range I need? I would be driving a heavier
vehicle (probably 2500-3000lbs, unfortunately), but I'd also have 3
more batteries than he does (156V for me, 120V for him). Again, my
commute is 25 miles, so I'd kind of like to have a range of 30 so I can
be somewhat kind to my batteries and not worry about reversing cells.
It almost doesn't sound like the extra 20Ah will be enough if Lee's
right, but then again, that Fiat goes 50 miles. And of course, if I
were trying to go far, I wouldn't be gunning it after every stop sign.
I've also started looking over some of Victor's AC stuff, especially
since regen might help assist me with my manual brakes (no, I won't
rely on it!). How much more range would AC give me? There are a
couple horribly-placed stop signs on the way. I was kind of hoping to
grab one of those pre-made adaptor plates for the ADC 9", but if the
benefits of AC are good enough, maybe it's worth the extra effort and
money.
thanks
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Ampabout
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
My routine varies according the rotating work schedule they
have me on. But my route is always the same: an easy ride to
get on the freeway, and land at work's parking lot a few
miles away. I barely get the controller warm.
I had noticed that my pack seemed unbalanced (it was a bit
sluggish for the range used, and the pack voltage under load
was lower). I adjusted my charger to make sure the finishing
voltage was correct. Now my capacity is back up and so is
the performance. That always makes for a nicer ride.
...
Certifiably Certifiable
At work I was checked out on two types of fork lifts. The
outside fork lift (lpg) and the inside Electric reach. It is
interesting to drive these Electric lifts. The controllers
are powerful and the controls sensitive. They are set up for
the regular drivers who demand performance.
Any warehouse operation with forklifts can always use someone with your
expertise.
...
Home Depot does not allow newbies to get sick
My Home Depot manager had me sign a reprimand for being sick
last Tuesday doubled over with intestinal pain. Thursday it
happened again. You should have seen the disgust on
management's faces when I told him I had to leave work. I
was not shirking, I was in pain. Nor was a fun night,
tossing and turning, unable to eat or sleep.
That really angers me. I would hope that any employer could count the
positives that their employees offer and that at times there are situations
that prevent employees from being able to come to work. Whether someone is a
new or senior employee, illness is something that could cause distraction
and create unsafe situations. Any manager worth their salt should have a
game plan for dealing with staffing issues. To kick you out would be like
throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is my sincere hope that your
supervisors can focus on the good you do for the business, and understand
that things do not always go as planned.
I hope you will be able to stay well and achieve your goals in the work
world, wherever they may be.
Just another one of my righteously angry rants here. Regards, A.K. Howard,
Board member of the Las Vegas EV Association, here in very hot parts of the
Las Vegas valley (104 degrees as I write), and staying cool at 8 cents per
kwh.
p.s. Bruce you will always be welcome here in Las Vegas, Nevada.
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, Bob Bath started it out at what I would consider high estimate.
I'm going to throw in my opinion after having worked on old EVs for
10 years and owned over 40 low value cars in my life.
Here's how I look at it.
1 Fiero badged piece of scrap car.
<-$50.00> because someone would have to tow it away.
1 9" ADC motor, 90% chance of being good,
$700.00 if it's removed, tested and marketed.
1 1221B $350 if it works, tested and marketed, $20 if it doesn't.
1 Sevcon,$150 if it works, tested and marketed, $0 if it doesn't.
Ever notice how little a car is worth to a wrecking yard? It's
because they have to pull the parts, test them, stock them, warrantee
them and answer a lot of questions.
If you ask a wrecking yard what they would pay for that car, I think
you'd be lucky to get $50.
If you offered it to a wrecking yard that knew what EV parts were
worth, you might get $300. I think this represents the value as it
sits, untested, fully assembled, unmarketed.
If you go through all the work of testing and marketing the parts,
and you are lucky because they work, then you have $1150, but it
takes a lot of work to do that, so the car is not worth that as it
sits.
I suspect that if you advertised it on something like the trading
post or ebay, and required the buyer to pick it up in a reasonable
time, you would get somewhere between $500 and $1000 for it.
So that's my opinion... Who else?
btw: I still have a AC drive powered (with regen) 87 Chevy Sprint for
sale, Needs batteries, and safer battery mounting. It has a true
killer Wayland sound system. A very fun car! Would be a perfect test
bed for lithium batteries since it can run 65 mph at under 150
wh/mile and only needs 144V. $4,000.00 as is, Palo Alto, CA. email me
direct if interested.
as with so many things, I just haven't taken the time to market it
which would be another afternoon that I couldn't be building
controllers....
Have fun!
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EV parts-- controller, adapter plate, DCDC, contactor,
charger etc. have a value of $7K.
Nevertheless, the Fiero has a history of small
problems; brake cable gets stuck & some other minor
problems.
Most EVs on the Trading Post are going for between
4-6K _if_ they are running. This one is not.
I'd say $2500.
--- bholmber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all,
I recently posted about our intent to build a hybrid
electric vehicle for
the Grassroots Motorsports magazine $2004 challenge.
We're on a tight
budget, but we had a good place to start with our
$25 88' Festiva. So we
were looking to find electric drive components for
cheap prices to complete
the car. It turns out that someone DONATED a
converted Fiero to our program
several years ago. After that the car was left to
sit in the back lot, its
batteries were scavenged, and its essentially been a
varmit hotel for the
pass few years (plenty of poop all over the
interior).
For the contest, anything that is donated has to be
subtracted from your
budget at a "fair market value". This is where I
hope you guys and gals can
help, because my assessment of the vehicle's worth
may be a little biased.
Let me know what you think its worth.
Early Pontiac Fiero
-black exterior (extreme paint damage), broken
locks, overall poor condition
-grey interior (plenty of varmit poop), seat tears,
overall poor condition
-5spd
-no batteries
-2 gauges for electric drive system (forgot which)
-Advanced DC motor FB1-4001, 120VDC, Class H, Serial
# 284
-Curtis Controller, VDC 72-120, Current 400A, model
1221B-7401
-Onboard 120VAC charger
-DC/DC Converter, Sevcon 128/12V, Generation II,
Isolate, Regulated
I can send pictures if you think that would help.
Thanks a lot!
> Brett
--
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Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> It seems to me that it would be straightforward to do even with your
> 4x24 matrix:
No. *Electrically* one group of 24 cells is like this:
+------------+
| one cell
| +----------+
| |
+-|----------+----+----+
| | nearest cell farthest cell <-- 3 cells
| +----------+----+----+
| |
+-|----------+----+----+----+----+
| | nearest cell cell cell cell farthest cell <-- 5 cells
| +----------+----+----+----+----+
| |
+o-----+------------+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| | nearest cell cell cell cell cell cell farthest <-- 7
-o-------+----------+----+----+----+----+----+----+ cells
| |
+-|----------+----+----+----+----+
| | nearest cell cell cell farthest cell <-- 5 cells
| +----------+----+----+----+----+
| |
+-|----------+----+----+
| nearest cell farthest cell <-- 3 cells
+----------+----+----+
3 more groups like this one are independently connected to
Sorensen at + and - points as well. So the max amount of cells
in one row is 7 (4 cells like that). This electrically
odd arrangement is convenient layout wise (I use bare wire
and it does not short out anything) as the cells are strapped
with alternating + and - terminal positions.
I'll take a photo and upload it, it will be clearer.
Victor
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This is good news. As you condition them more, Rint (and so heat
generation) should drop. And, this was right observation -
exotermic discharging (right word?) - give away heat, and endothermic
charging (absorbs heat or cools, but in real test I'm aware of just
didn't change the temp, perhaps because 1C rate was used, so high
rate charging actually heated as much as cooled at the same time).
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> More test data on my Thunder-Sky TS-LP90AP LiIon cells:
>
> On my first 3 discharge cycles (without the conditioning charge cycles),
> I got only about 48 amphours. The cells also heated up 40 deg.F (from 66
> to 106 deg.F).
>
> I finished charging all 4 cells according to Thunder-Sky's conditioning
> instructions (charge at 27 amps until 4.3v, then hold 4.3v until the
> current falls to 0.9a). The cells accepted about 80 amphours.
>
> I then ran a discharge test on all 4 in series. The load was a resistor
> that draws 25 amps at 12 volts. The test was terminated when the first
> cell fell to 2.75v.
>
> After one conditioning charge, they now yielded 87 amphours. A big
> improvement!
>
> However, they also got even hotter. Starting temperature was 69 deg.F;
> ending temperature was 120 deg.F! This is at just a 25 amp load, and
> with only 4 cells sitting on a concrete floor with plenty of free air
> around them.
>
> It's looking like these cells are going to need SUBSTANTIAL cooling.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Or more cycles to break them in. Many batteries run hot during break in and
then run cooler once broken in.
Lee is right on the leading edge.
Go Lee, Go.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist - Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
> It's looking like these cells are going to need SUBSTANTIAL cooling.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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Good work!
We'll also be trying the procedure here while monitoring voltage,
current, and temperature. (I use the term we loosely--some local folks with
the right equipment have volunteered to run a few of my cells through the
initialization procedure). Thanks!
I guess we'll all get to work on cooling system designs right after
the BMS! (Maybe I could have saved some $ on that heater.) ;-)
It's very encouraging to find the actual capacity is so close to the
rating.
I have lots of good leads on test equipment. Thanks to all who
responded via the list and directly.
It seems that to initialize an entire pack, we will need to make some
special equipment, or get the BMS working and use regular charging. For
discharge cycles, I may have to drive around the block for 3 hours and 20
minutes. ;-) Seriously, after all the comments, I'm leaning toward building
a massive homebew load, as several folks have done.
Gary
===========================================
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue May 27, 2003 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
More test data on my Thunder-Sky TS-LP90AP LiIon cells:
On my first 3 discharge cycles (without the conditioning charge
cycles),
I got only about 48 amphours. The cells also heated up 40 deg.F (from
66
to 106 deg.F).
I finished charging all 4 cells according to Thunder-Sky's
conditioning
instructions (charge at 27 amps until 4.3v, then hold 4.3v until the
current falls to 0.9a). The cells accepted about 80 amphours.
I then ran a discharge test on all 4 in series. The load was a
resistor
that draws 25 amps at 12 volts. The test was terminated when the first
cell fell to 2.75v.
After one conditioning charge, they now yielded 87 amphours. A big
improvement!
However, they also got even hotter. Starting temperature was 69 deg.F;
ending temperature was 120 deg.F! This is at just a 25 amp load, and
with only 4 cells sitting on a concrete floor with plenty of free air
around them.
It's looking like these cells are going to need SUBSTANTIAL cooling.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Very well said Otmar, I totally agree.
I liked how you slipped in your own little bit of marketing there on the
end.
:^D
------------------
Otmar wrote:
Ok, Bob Bath started it out at what I would consider high estimate.
I'm going to throw in my opinion after having worked on old EVs for 10
years and owned over 40 low value cars in my life.
Here's how I look at it.
1 Fiero badged piece of scrap car.
<-$50.00> because someone would have to tow it away.
1 9" ADC motor, 90% chance of being good,
$700.00 if it's removed, tested and marketed.
1 1221B $350 if it works, tested and marketed, $20 if it doesn't.
1 Sevcon,$150 if it works, tested and marketed, $0 if it doesn't.
Ever notice how little a car is worth to a wrecking yard? It's because they
have to pull the parts, test them, stock them, warrantee them and answer a
lot of questions.
If you ask a wrecking yard what they would pay for that car, I think you'd
be lucky to get $50.
If you offered it to a wrecking yard that knew what EV parts were worth,
you might get $300. I think this represents the value as it sits, untested,
fully assembled, unmarketed.
If you go through all the work of testing and marketing the parts, and you
are lucky because they work, then you have $1150, but it takes a lot of
work to do that, so the car is not worth that as it sits.
I suspect that if you advertised it on something like the trading post or
ebay, and required the buyer to pick it up in a reasonable time, you would
get somewhere between $500 and $1000 for it.
So that's my opinion... Who else?
btw: I still have a AC drive powered (with regen) 87 Chevy Sprint for sale,
Needs batteries, and safer battery mounting. It has a true killer Wayland
sound system. A very fun car! Would be a perfect test bed for lithium
batteries since it can run 65 mph at under 150 wh/mile and only needs 144V.
$4,000.00 as is, Palo Alto, CA. email me direct if interested.
as with so many things, I just haven't taken the time to market it which
would be another afternoon that I couldn't be building controllers....
Have fun!
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
From: Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Used Fiero conversion value?
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:27:31 -0700
Ok, Bob Bath started it out at what I would consider high estimate.
I'm going to throw in my opinion after having worked on old EVs for 10
years and owned over 40 low value cars in my life.
Here's how I look at it.
1 Fiero badged piece of scrap car.
<-$50.00> because someone would have to tow it away.
1 9" ADC motor, 90% chance of being good,
$700.00 if it's removed, tested and marketed.
1 1221B $350 if it works, tested and marketed, $20 if it doesn't.
1 Sevcon,$150 if it works, tested and marketed, $0 if it doesn't.
Ever notice how little a car is worth to a wrecking yard? It's because they
have to pull the parts, test them, stock them, warrantee them and answer a
lot of questions.
If you ask a wrecking yard what they would pay for that car, I think you'd
be lucky to get $50.
If you offered it to a wrecking yard that knew what EV parts were worth,
you might get $300. I think this represents the value as it sits, untested,
fully assembled, unmarketed.
If you go through all the work of testing and marketing the parts, and you
are lucky because they work, then you have $1150, but it takes a lot of
work to do that, so the car is not worth that as it sits.
I suspect that if you advertised it on something like the trading post or
ebay, and required the buyer to pick it up in a reasonable time, you would
get somewhere between $500 and $1000 for it.
So that's my opinion... Who else?
btw: I still have a AC drive powered (with regen) 87 Chevy Sprint for sale,
Needs batteries, and safer battery mounting. It has a true killer Wayland
sound system. A very fun car! Would be a perfect test bed for lithium
batteries since it can run 65 mph at under 150 wh/mile and only needs 144V.
$4,000.00 as is, Palo Alto, CA. email me direct if interested.
as with so many things, I just haven't taken the time to market it which
would be another afternoon that I couldn't be building controllers....
Have fun!
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EV parts-- controller, adapter plate, DCDC, contactor,
charger etc. have a value of $7K.
Nevertheless, the Fiero has a history of small
problems; brake cable gets stuck & some other minor
problems.
Most EVs on the Trading Post are going for between
4-6K _if_ they are running. This one is not.
I'd say $2500.
--- bholmber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all,
I recently posted about our intent to build a hybrid
electric vehicle for
the Grassroots Motorsports magazine $2004 challenge.
We're on a tight
budget, but we had a good place to start with our
$25 88' Festiva. So we
were looking to find electric drive components for
cheap prices to complete
the car. It turns out that someone DONATED a
converted Fiero to our program
several years ago. After that the car was left to
sit in the back lot, its
batteries were scavenged, and its essentially been a
varmit hotel for the
pass few years (plenty of poop all over the
interior).
For the contest, anything that is donated has to be
subtracted from your
budget at a "fair market value". This is where I
hope you guys and gals can
help, because my assessment of the vehicle's worth
may be a little biased.
Let me know what you think its worth.
Early Pontiac Fiero
-black exterior (extreme paint damage), broken
locks, overall poor condition
-grey interior (plenty of varmit poop), seat tears,
overall poor condition
-5spd
-no batteries
-2 gauges for electric drive system (forgot which)
-Advanced DC motor FB1-4001, 120VDC, Class H, Serial
# 284
-Curtis Controller, VDC 72-120, Current 400A, model
1221B-7401
-Onboard 120VAC charger
-DC/DC Converter, Sevcon 128/12V, Generation II,
Isolate, Regulated
I can send pictures if you think that would help.
Thanks a lot!
> Brett
--
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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Ken wrote:
I have 16 US125s (96v total) system with a Russco SC 18-120 charger.
Near the end of a charging cycle, the charger's amp gauge reads
2 or 3 amps and my volt meter reads about 120 volts. If I put my
ear near the battery pack, I can hear a slight bubbly sound (like
an open soda can). Is this just normal end of cycle gassing?
That looks like a really good finish for a 96v pack of golf cart
batteries (2.5vpc). You don't need to leave the batteries in this
state very long before shutting off the charger since you have the
amps plenty low, indicating a full charge at that voltage.
Neon
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: Batteries
How about biting the bullet and switching to a
> higher-voltage controller (Z1K) with more batteries?
Seth is right about the range , but with 20 YT batteries running 240v the 25
mile trip would be fine i belive. I drove my 3800 lbs 924 porsche 30 miles
once a week and used 30 ah to do it on 240v and it is lot heaver . I'm now
back to 6v golf cart which also take twice a long to charge.
> The third option - to try to use floodies - is almost completely voided
> by the fact that the car comes with manual brakes, to say nothing of
> the fact that it has a max GVWR of 2690lbs (loaded), and the body
> itself weighs around 1400. Not very conducive to another 1400 pounds
> of batteries, as far as I can tell.
Well that would be 50 /50 , as much car as batterie , is it realy that
light ?
I vote for 20 YT . I'm also waiting for them to fall out of the sky for my
car.
Steve Clunn
Granted, I've seen Bob Rice's poor
> rabbit which still goes, but as a sports car, it should stay somewhat
> light.
> I suppose it should also be noted that, where I live, there are more
> hills than I might like for driving an EV, but I'm learning to drive
> efficiently.
>
> Unfortunately, my wallet isn't going to allow me to beta test any of
> those 600Ah Lions, so there goes that option...
>
> I'd love to get some advice from anyone with personal experience or a
> good understanding of the different batteries. Thanks in advance!
>
> -Ben
>
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