EV Digest 3862
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Wet Rudman regs
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Small milestones...and wrecked photocopiers helping to build
an EV.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: OEM Connectors, Relay sockets and Fuse holders
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wet Rudman regs
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Small milestones...and wrecked photocopiers helping to build an EV.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Why not
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) PG&E hybrid vehicles
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fwd: RE: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: battery hold down
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Brushless DC vs AC [Was: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC]
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Wet Rudman regs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) GFIs, ground faults and PFC-30 chargers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) larger lithium batteries
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: GFIs, ground faults and PFC-30 chargers
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
Yes I was quite happy to see that they had published my letter to the editor.
They did shorten it quite a bit, but I feel they kept the essence of
it and I'm not complaining.
btw, as soon as I read that article on hydrogen, I went out and
subscribed for a year. At $10 for a year, I felt it was the least I
could do to support intelligent reporting.
For those of you curious about reporting, here is what I sent them
followed by what was published:
I have to commend Motor Trend for the August issue.
Rarely have I seen such excellent reporting as "Hydrogen, Fuel
Cells, and Reality" in any media.
I'm at a loss for words. This article showed admirable balance and
objectivity. It is the first piece on alternative fuels in which I
could not find any glaring omissions. I even learned some things
from it. Having worked with alternative fuels for over a decade, I
am thankful for your accurate reporting.
I must admit my personal bias leans toward that of Dr Paul
MacCready. This comes both from the facts that I think I know, and
that I figure it's easier to believe those who are accomplished than
those who speak with eloquence but have done little.
Being addicted to speed myself while committed to driving clean when
possible, I'll continue to run around town in my old `74 Porsche 914
battery electric conversion. It does 0-60 in 5 seconds and gets all
its energy from about $4000 of solar panels installed on the roof of
my house. I just can't see the logic in paying for the $16,000 worth
of panels it would take to make green hydrogen for a fuel cell
instead.
In addition, your review of the 2005 Lotus Elise has me tempted.
Pure battery electric power in that car utilizing todays lithium
cells could knock at least a second off the gas versions 0-60 times
and might help in other areas as well. As if I needed another
project!
Regards,
Otmar Ebenhoech
But with the price of inches in a mag, here is what they published:
Rarely have I seen such excellent reporting.
Being addicted to speed myself, while committed to driving clean when
possible, I'll continue to run around town in my old `74 Porsche 914
battery electric conversion. It does 0-60 in 5 seconds and gets all
its energy from about $4000 of solar panels installed on the roof of
my house. I just can't see the logic in paying for the $16,000 worth
of panels it would take to make green hydrogen for a fuel cell
instead. In addition, your review of the 2005 Lotus Elise has me
tempted. Pure battery electric power in that car utilizing todays
lithium cells could knock at least a second off the gas versions 0-60
times and might help in other areas as well.
Otmar Ebenhoech
Palo Alto, California
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep they sure do. They were all warm. Not melted thank the electric gods.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Wet Rudman regs
> At 04:19 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
> >I wouldn't dare charge with wet regs. I'll check tomorrow. I suspect
they
> >will dry and I'll brush and vac them and hopefully they will be ok.
>
> One of the problems is that the regs MAY turn on and discharge one or more
> of your batteries. I had some of mine do that when they got wet.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have reached a point where there is finally a little to see for all of
the seperate bits and pieces so far built. Albeit temporarily, I have the
lower groups of batteries (Orbital marine deep cycle) in my battery box,
with the heater plates under them and the top clamp plates on them. Some of
the cables attached, those on the heater plates attached, but the cables to
the top plates and the batteries are not on.
They are in there so that I can make sure that the parts to be mounted on
the upper battery plates do not interfere with anything under them.
With all of the planning the one thing that I underestimated was the number
of small screws needed! The 80 small fuses for the bypass regs (sense and
shunt, + and -, 20 batteries) each need a screw, the terminal blocks for
the temperature sensors (40) all need screws, the bypass resistors (two
sets, two screws each) another 80 screws. Mains power heater resistors, "P"
clamps, saddles... around 300 screws! The "P" clamps and saddles I have
been able to use 4mm washer head screws, the same as feature prominently in
Japanese photocopiers. So a couple of wrecked photocopiers have provided
the 4mm screw supply for my EV. I still had to buy a heap of 3mm capscrews,
though.
I am trying to find as much time as I can now to get the batteries
connected and charged - the rest of the systems can wait their turn. I had
to get the batteries to be able to build the battery boxes - no dead
batteries or dummys available, so had to be the real thing. Hard to build
an EV whilst running a new (well - going for 5 years this week) technical
company with too few experienced techs and too much work on.
I am going to have to fully wire the batteries to work out where I need to
weld on tie-off points for the wiring, then pull them all out again, weld
in the tie-off points, paint the boxes, fit the insulation and lining
before reassembling.
A lot of work, but it has to be done right, look right and be right. It'd
be um... "disappointing" to do all this work only to have it burnt for lack
of a fuse in the right place or a wire restraint.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:00 AM 19/10/04 -0700, Ken Trough wrote:
Steve and Otmar or somebody else should post copies of their letters to
the editor in this forum. It seems like a shame to buy a magazine just
to read their letters.
Come on! You can afford to be involved with EVs and you can't afford a
measly magazine?!? Sorry, but I don't believe it.
Check your local library though. I'm sure they have a copy you can thumb
through for nothing.
I'll be buying a copy, just as I bought a copy of the last issue with all
the great EV related data. I believe we should support publications that
support us, and not look to simply post the data so that people can avoid
purchasing them.
Ah, Ken - spare a thought for those EVDL members in countries where that
magazine is not availabe (or not without a great deal of trouble to get).
We would like to know what those who are speaking up for the casuse are
saying. "Avoid" purchasing? failing to hunt down a copy is more accurate.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can find a distributor in your area that deals with Northwest
Regulator, you will likely find what you need. They manufacture lots of
wiring harness connectors that are direct replacement for OEM plugs. My
thought would be to contact some of your local rebuilders, or Northwest
themselves and ask who is close to you. Their quality is second to none. (I
can't say publicly, but they are known to the public by a different name, a
very famous stereo company, a gold type name, LOL)
Raymond
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another helpful hint we use in electronic industry is
to dip the circuits in Alcohol the blow them out with
High pressure air. The Alcohol displaces the water to
prevent corrosion. It also help get the water out of
the tight areas you can't see. If you can't dip them
then pour it over them. Be careful to make sure the
Alcohol is dried out full before re-energizing as you
don't want a fire.
--- John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 04:19 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
> >I wouldn't dare charge with wet regs. I'll check
> tomorrow. I suspect they
> >will dry and I'll brush and vac them and hopefully
> they will be ok.
>
> One of the problems is that the regs MAY turn on and
> discharge one or more
> of your batteries. I had some of mine do that when
> they got wet.
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David and All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I was about to order a lightweight alumimum flywheel, when I saw you
> can get "lightweight billet steel" flywheels that are about the same
> weight.
A lightened flywheel in an EV using a tranny, is an excellent idea. Gas cars need
weight
in the flywheel for several reasons...to keep the reciprocating action going, to smooth
out vibration, and to help launch the car when ICE torque is miserably low at near idle
speeds. Lighter flywheels in a gas engined car help the ICE spin up faster, but the
negatives of a rougher running engine and loss of take-off torque have to be
considered.
In an EV, there is no reason at all, to have a heavy flywheel over a light
one....there is
no reciprocating action to keep going, there is no vibration to speak of, and there is
abundant torque at zero rpm. The only function of the flywheel in an EV, is to hold the
clutch.
>
> I realized I don't know this answer and maybe could save myself some
> $$: How much lighter can I have the stock flywheel machined? The
> lightweight flywheels are expensive and about 40% lighter than stock.
> How much can I have shaved off the stock flywheel? Thanks in advance.
Blue Meanie's flywheel was 23 lbs. stock. Since an EV doesn't need the large diameter
to
support a ring gear for a starter motor to mesh with, you can machine-off a good deal
of
the overall diameter. You can also thin-down the thickness of the outer perimeter of
the
flywheel, too, to save weight, just keep it thick enough so the perimeter bolts of the
pressure plate have enough meat to fully thread into. Blue Meanie's flywheel was shaved
down in diameter, outer perimeter thickness, and thus, weight. The flywheel diameter is
now the same as the pressure plate, so it went from about 14 inches to about 9 inches
or
so. The flywheel now weighs just 12.5 lbs.
A lightened steel flywheel is safe and still does its job of facilitating the clutch
system, but it really makes a BIG difference in the way the electric motor can near
instantly spin-up from rest! There is a huge difference in rotational mass and the
effort
to get it moving, when you go from trying to spin-up a 14 inch, 23 lb. chunk of steel,
to
spinning-up a 9 inch 12.5 lb. chunk of steel.
Every EV conversion I've ever done, has used a lightened flywheel. Not doing so,
simply
results in wasted power, both in terms of rotational mass to overcome, and in the extra
weight the EV has to pack around. Most machine shops can reduce your flywheel's size
and
weight, for about $50....it's way cheaper than an aluminum flywheel.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good work, James! I'm in the process of designing my battery box now. What
did you use for heater plates? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Small milestones...and wrecked photocopiers helping to build an EV.
Hi all
I have reached a point where there is finally a little to see for all of
the seperate bits and pieces so far built. Albeit temporarily, I have the
lower groups of batteries (Orbital marine deep cycle) in my battery box,
with the heater plates under them and the top clamp plates on them. Some of
the cables attached, those on the heater plates attached, but the cables to
the top plates and the batteries are not on.
They are in there so that I can make sure that the parts to be mounted on
the upper battery plates do not interfere with anything under them.
With all of the planning the one thing that I underestimated was the number
of small screws needed! The 80 small fuses for the bypass regs (sense and
shunt, + and -, 20 batteries) each need a screw, the terminal blocks for
the temperature sensors (40) all need screws, the bypass resistors (two
sets, two screws each) another 80 screws. Mains power heater resistors, "P"
clamps, saddles... around 300 screws! The "P" clamps and saddles I have
been able to use 4mm washer head screws, the same as feature prominently in
Japanese photocopiers. So a couple of wrecked photocopiers have provided
the 4mm screw supply for my EV. I still had to buy a heap of 3mm capscrews,
though.
I am trying to find as much time as I can now to get the batteries
connected and charged - the rest of the systems can wait their turn. I had
to get the batteries to be able to build the battery boxes - no dead
batteries or dummys available, so had to be the real thing. Hard to build
an EV whilst running a new (well - going for 5 years this week) technical
company with too few experienced techs and too much work on.
I am going to have to fully wire the batteries to work out where I need to
weld on tie-off points for the wiring, then pull them all out again, weld
in the tie-off points, paint the boxes, fit the insulation and lining
before reassembling.
A lot of work, but it has to be done right, look right and be right. It'd
be um... "disappointing" to do all this work only to have it burnt for lack
of a fuse in the right place or a wire restraint.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome letter, awesome Porsche, and way to vote with your wallet!
Just curious, how long does a fuel cell last?
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> btw, as soon as I read that article on hydrogen, I went out and
> subscribed for a year. At $10 for a year, I felt it was the least I
>
> could do to support intelligent reporting.
>
> For those of you curious about reporting, here is what I sent them
> followed by what was published:
> >Being addicted to speed myself while committed to driving clean
> when
> >possible, I'll continue to run around town in my old `74 Porsche
> 914
> >battery electric conversion. It does 0-60 in 5 seconds and gets
> all
> >its energy from about $4000 of solar panels installed on the roof
> of
> >my house. I just can't see the logic in paying for the $16,000
> worth
> >of panels it would take to make green hydrogen for a fuel cell
> >instead.
> ...
=====
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some more on the Michelin weel motor.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/19/c05-307899.htm
"Why not use the space within the tire to put as many components as possible, including
all the suspension, and make it active, and put in an electric motor, and even
eliminate
the need for a mechanical transmission?"
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good luck finding any engineering details on these trucks.
http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2004/10/18/story2.html
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:02 AM -0700 10-20-04, David Dymaxion wrote:
Awesome letter, awesome Porsche, and way to vote with your wallet!
Just curious, how long does a fuel cell last?
How long does a fuel cell in a car last?
Just as long as the "Silver Tongued Grant Suckers"tm. and our poor
excuse for a media conspire to keep it going. Eventually the facts
will catch up with them.
Hopefully only a few more years. :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you rebalance the flywheel after removing the steel ring? Have you had the
flywheel up to
speed yet?
Dave Cover
--- Bryan Avery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The aluminum flywheels (at least the one I got) are a two-piece arrangement
> with the steel outer ring gear portion riveted onto the aluminum body of the
> flywheel. I'm no expert, but I imagine this could have something to do with
> the regulation, since I would think a solid one-piece flywheel would be less
> likely to come apart at high speeds. Of course, the advantage of this sort
> of arrangement in a conversion is that if you want even less weight it is a
> simple matter to drill out the rivets and cut the steel ring gear off of the
> flywheel as I did. No machining necessary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, a couple of questions:
1. where did you get the "acid proof" fans
2. what is the make of the "acid proof" rubber coating?
Thanks
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: July 6, 2004 8:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: battery hold down
The best design I found for battery hold downs, is the battery enclosure
structure itself. My old battery racks or boxes were made out of metal and
aluminum. This was NOT GOOD, THERE IS TOO MUCH CONDUCTANCE FROM THE
BATTERY CASES TO THE METAL RACKS OR CONTAINERS.
No matter how much you clean the batteries with all the battery cleaning
solutions, I can still measure a voltage leak from the battery case to the
frame.
I place a rubber mat for the batteries to set on, but I found that the metal
which was acid proof epoxy painted, was corroding the metal.
With the lights out, while charging, I could see some arking between the
battery cases and frame. AGAIN NOT GOOD.
So on my next redesign and modifications of the EV System, I made battery
boxes enclosures that would ISOLATED the batteries from any metal frames or
the frame of the car by using 1/4 to 1/2 thick fiberglass material.
Also all AC inputs and Battery charger components are also ISOLATED in a
fiberglass containers.
The fiberglass enclosures are coated with that same type of epoxy coating
that is applied to bath tubs and showers which you can pick up as a kit at
any home improvement center.
The size of these containers is the size of the battery dim. plus allowing
for a 1/4 to 5/15 inch space around each battery.
Before I set the batteries in these containers, I place about 1 inch thick
bed of baking soda in the bottom for the batteries to set on.
To hold down the batteries, I used aluminum TEE-ANGLE which is 2 inch wide
by 2 inch stub that goes down between the batteries.
THIS T-BAR IF FIRST COATED WITH THAT RUBBER TOOL DIP STUFF WHICH IS ACID
PROOF. or
Take it to the place where they apply coatings to pickup beds. They can
apply it in a smooth coating.
The ends of the T-BAR's have a welded on flange that butts against the sides
of the battery boxes. Make this flange long, so it will go all the way up,
In my case, just about to the fiberglass hinge covers, which are also seal
down with double groove gaskets.
The T-Bar flanges are bolted through with a 3/8 or 7/16 stainless bolt in to
a nut plate which is mounted on the outside of the box. The long flange on
the T-Bar allows for different battery sizes.
The nut plate that is mounted on the outside of the box, is a long flat
steel bar stock of 3/16 thick by 2 inches wide with 3/8 or 7/16 nuts welded
to it.
This nut plate assembly is then fiberglass and build up to where it may be a
1 inch thick and 4 inches wide.
These battery enclosures have a high pressure filter intake air input and a
low pressure exhaust air with acid proof fans and 1/4 PVC acid proof flex
hoses.
After two years of this installation, The batteries are dust free, clean,
no conductance to ground.
In a isolated ground system, where the vehicle frame is not AC ground, a
ground detection system is used as when any Line wire is shorted to the
non-grounded frame, it will indicated this or will not allow startup of any
AC input.
These units are normally used in explosive proof areas and made by Crouse
Hinds Company. A cheaper why to do this, is to used a Ground Fault
Recepticle circuit to a control relay which will shut down a AC contactor
that provides power to the EV.
In stalling the Ground Fault Recepticle, just install the AC input to the
FEED screw terminals and the relay circuit to the LOAD screw terminals.
No connector plug is required.
Also do not connected up a ground wire coming out of the recepticle to the
frame of the vehicle. Install the recepticle as so it will not be self
grounding to any metal if using a input or feed ground to it.
A Ground Fault Recepticle does not need a ground wire to it for it to work.
The recepticle reads the voltage differences between the two lines, Hot and
Neutral or L1 and N or call ungrounded lines.
If this voltage difference is greater then what is desired for maximum
safety, it will open the circuit, open the control relay, which inturn open
A AC contactor or shut down the battery charger.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: battery hold down
> thanks all,
>
> seems like i need to do a little re design. i must
> have some metal around here someplace. but metal that
> is as strong as 3/4 ply is so heavy unless it is
> aluminum and i can't weld alum. what about
> fiberglassing the ply and using threaded rod in the
> existing t-nuts with wing nuts and fender washers on
> top. won't look as clean as those bolts on mr
> waylands car but would probably suffice for the year
> or two i am going to use these batteries. stil
> thinking on it and will not be able to work on the car
> again till next week end so if any one has any more
> ideas i'd appreciate them
>
> thanks
> kevs
>
>
> --- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > At 10:18 PM 5/07/04 -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
> > >keith vansickle wrote:
> > > > I drilled the plywood bases <snip>
> > >
> > >Reading this, my first concern is that you are
> > using plywood <snip>
> >
> > Which will also possibly (depending on thickness)
> > allow your batteries to
> > move relative to each other, If you use flexible
> > interconnects, not a
> > problem, but if buss bars, may be. Also the weight
> > of the strong-enough
> > plywood is probably more than the weight of my
> > constructed steel
> > fabrication. And NASA have has enough embarrasments
> > from Australians, they
> > would't want me ;)
> >
> > >Next, T-nuts are pretty weak fasteners.
> >
> > I don't know what the vehicle design rules state
> > where you are, Australian
> > Rules want the batteries to stay put in 20G. My
> > hold-dows won't keep them
> > there for that, but if my vehicle is undergoing 20G
> > I would't survive
> > anyway. So the hold-downs that I used (two 8mm
> > threaded rod) should be
> > adequate for the life of the vehicle, or at least
> > the batteries.
> >
> > >If it were me, I'd make a metal floor for the
> > battery box, or at least
> > >locate metal where these bolts need to go. Use
> > threaded rod with nuts
> > >and fender washers (large diameter washers) to make
> > studs sticking up
> > >from the floor of the battery box. Slide the
> > batteries down over these
> > >threaded rods.
> >
> > Which is exactly what I am in the process of doing.
> > When they don't line
> > up, you can steer the battery over the ends of the
> > rods, easily. But I'm
> > also putting an aluminum heating plate onto the
> > rods, spaced off the base
> > of the box. Base-spacers-plate-batteries. Simple
> > when you say it quickly.
> > But because of the spacers and desire to use some
> > buss bars, I also instead
> > of using individual washers on top of the batteries,
> > a plate across the group.
> >
> > >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > James Massey
> > Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
> > '78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tommy and All,
--- Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'd like to have/buy/build an EV, but it would have
> to have a 80-100mile
> range and capable of 80 mph (freeway commute). I
> imagine converting
> something light, like an MR2 or a Catherham 7, with
> an AC system running
> off Li Ion batteries. Is this even realistic? And
> how much should I
> expect to spend?
I'd go the MR2 of those 2. Better aero!! Without
good aero you are not going far no matter what batt
you have at 80 mph!
But a T-zero, style would be quite easy to build
from curved flat panels over a bug, other frames and
have lower drag if done right and weigh about 1500lbs
with the 96 volt system below and quite quick.
With the MR2 as a base, an easy way would be to
use a battery pack of 6 to 8 orbitals for 72 or 96vdc
nom with 2 strings of 90 amphr li-ions of about 10%
more resting voltage.
At 96v pack the Orbitals would weight 336lbs and
give you greater punch without too much weight. Then
the 2 Li-ion strings of 90amphrs each will give you
the range. It cuts the numbers of batt regs needed
too. And cheaply charged from a 120vac outlet found
every where especially in front of most 7-11 stores.
This gives you 21kwhr to work with and you should
be able to get 150 watthr/mile so 100 miles would be
no problem if aero, tire, other drags minimized. For
power at 1000amps and 80vdc it gives you about 90 hp
and tons of torque off the line.
For a controller use a Low voltage Zilla 1k with
series/parallel option feeding 2- 48 or 72 vdc motors
that handle 150 amps cont would give you real good
power though not drag racing stuff though a lot
faster, cheaper than the AC route. A finished weight
of 2000-2200lbs helps a lot.
All this, minus the li-ions, their BMS, would
cost under $5k so you should be able to do it for
under $15-18k if you do most of it youself.
A Karmen Ghia is another proven car to do it
with. On is getting 100watthr/mile!
Or almost any Porsche.
Or 16 T-125 GC batts, 17.5kwhr, would get you
about 75 miles usable range, 110 miles to dead, for
another 450 or so lbs. This with a cheaper controller
could be under $5k for the EV.
The T-zero style done right with a 914 style roof
for better aero would do 100 miles on 12 T125 batts
with about 12kwhr and 100watthr/mile!
Your choice, you don't have to pay a lot to get a
good long range EV!!
What is you commute each way?
How much on freeway? Hills?
Can you charge at work?
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maytag already uses variable induction motor drives. Most of the silicon
vendors are working on 2 to 5 Hp 12 to 240 fully integrated inverter chips.
Powerex, Ir, Etc have them on the market.
The PM BLDC has neo magnets... induction has no magnets, and it is very
simple and in VERY high volume production. If you are looking for cheap and
Rugged, you can't beat induction.
There fore I see no advantage to getting the home White goods market to
using a more expensive motor and drive combination than what they already
have.
Rugged Pm BLDC trap drives can still take over the light Ev market, Because
most of the current drives are very cheaply made and don't come up to the
level of reliability and ruggedness that brushed DC has at the moment. Etek
Showed us what a Good Neo brushed motor could do. The follow on will be a
same sized machine with equivalent drive power, And BLDC.
I would think that a Steel stator with injected Aluminum Squirrel Cage
design would be lighter and cheaper to make. A BLDC rotor has to have the
magnets on the rotor tip, and the stator will be almost exactly the same
size and weight as the Induction Stator. So....What savings can be had has a
lot to do with the rotor manufacturing process, not the drive. BLDC likes to
have a thin rotor with Killer MGO magnets, and Induction likes to have a
long rotor, and a more bulky long stator.
The market will favor the adjustable speed induction... it will be
cheaper Than BLDC. Neo magnet material may get cheap enough to counteract
cheap steel and Alum, but it's got a ways to go. For size and weight, the
BLDC wins the Race up to the point that the stator becomes close to the size
that a industrial induction stator. Then the mass produced cost savings
takes over.
BeCarefull that you don't try to take drive technology Back a step instead
of forward a step.
Once you have a 3 phase inverter.. the rest of the argument is the cost
benefits that the motor design can produce.
Good Neo magnets, are equivalent, to Copper in the rotor slots.
Both are spendy, but really work well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Brushless DC vs AC [Was: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC]
> > > If "brushless DC" motors are AC motors with permanent magnets then
> > > these are synchronous AC motors, right?
> >
> > Right!
>
> There are two general types of what most refer to permanent magnet
brushless
> motors as: BLDC and PMAC. The BLDC I believe is the name used for
> trapezoidally-excited stators, and PMAC for sinusoidally-excited stators.
> Like the AC induction motor, the PMAC has no torque/current ripple. The
> BLDC trapezoidal with 120 degree excitation (only two phases on at a time)
> does have a torque ripple; it manifests itself as a slight fall-off six
> times per period. The trapezoidal is easier to drive as sensorless
because
> you can measure the back-EMF of the open-phase, even if you're using PWM.
> Thirty degrees after the EMF is zero, you commutate to the next pattern.
>
> > That is exactly what the controller must do. It must apply exactly the
> > right frequency, at exactly the right phase so the motor produces the
> > desired torque. This makes the controller more complicated that it would
> > be for (say) an AC induction motor.
>
> The sensorless BLDC/PMAC is hard to start up because of the extra-low
> back-EMF, described above. But...it has its advantages:
>
> > Possible advantages of BLDC from Markus:
> > - size (brushless dc being smaller than induction motors?)
> > - weight (are windings heavier than permanent magnets?)
> > - maybe a little bit of efficiency - not sure
>
> Much smaller, yes. They are easier to build in a pancake shape as well.
> Definitely lighter.
> About 4-7% efficiency gain.
>
> ...With all this stuff still in my head... Switching to speed-control and
> BLDC in home appliances could have saved Americans $13 billion on
electrical
> bills in 1995. A couple weeks ago I did a presentation to three
executives
> from Texas Instruments, and am hoping for $40,000 of school funding as an
> undergraduate to help develop an efficient sensorless BLDC control for
home
> applicances. :-)
>
> - Arthur
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the flywheel was rebalanced afterwards, however I was not able to have
the flywheel and adapter hub balanced together as a unit as I had hoped to
do, since I could not find anyone with equipment that would fit the adapter
hub (apparently most of the balancing machines require that the shaft of the
machine pass all the way through the part being balanced, which is not
possible with my hub). When I got everything bolted together and spun the
motor up, it was a little unbalanced, but through some experimentation I
discovered that if I rotated the flywheel 180 degrees in relation to the
hub, almost all the vibration disappeared. Now that it's all installed in
the car, I've spun it up to around 6-7K RPMs and it seems pretty well
balanced. I did make the mistake of spinning it up with the clutch in, and
with no load, it was up to almost 10K RPMs within seconds at which point the
rev limiter setting on the inverter kicked in and shut down the system.
After that experience, I do notice a slight vibration now at around 1500
RPMs that wasn't there before if I rev the motor with the clutch in. I
suspect the motor shaft may have gotten tweaked a hair from the 10K RPM
experiment. So far, the vibration doesn't seem to be noticeable during
normal driving though, so I may have lucked out once again. Live and
learn...
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Fwd: RE: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
>
> Did you rebalance the flywheel after removing the steel ring? Have you had
> the flywheel up to
> speed yet?
>
> Dave Cover
> --- Bryan Avery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The aluminum flywheels (at least the one I got) are a two-piece
> arrangement
> > with the steel outer ring gear portion riveted onto the aluminum body of
> the
> > flywheel. I'm no expert, but I imagine this could have something to do
> with
> > the regulation, since I would think a solid one-piece flywheel would be
> less
> > likely to come apart at high speeds. Of course, the advantage of this
> sort
> > of arrangement in a conversion is that if you want even less weight it
> is a
> > simple matter to drill out the rivets and cut the steel ring gear off of
> the
> > flywheel as I did. No machining necessary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK....
Here's what I use:
Hot soapy water with a tooth brush to clean the Flux and the residue out,
rinse
Blow out with compressed air , then dry in front of a Space heater until
quite warm to the touch.
If the go wierd on you from water contamination, disconnect, as quickly as
possible. Dry and retry.
If water is a real issue conformal coat them, and try to keep the Concoat
off the heatsink.
Goldie has her Regs under a plexiglass battery pack cover. They don't get
water of any kind on them. The front pack.... gets some road spray, and the
rain is a problem.
Loose faston connections are the bigger prroblem. I park her when it's
really wet. And that often in the Seattle area, in the winter.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Wet Rudman regs
> Another helpful hint we use in electronic industry is
> to dip the circuits in Alcohol the blow them out with
> High pressure air. The Alcohol displaces the water to
> prevent corrosion. It also help get the water out of
> the tight areas you can't see. If you can't dip them
> then pour it over them. Be careful to make sure the
> Alcohol is dried out full before re-energizing as you
> don't want a fire.
>
> --- John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At 04:19 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
> > >I wouldn't dare charge with wet regs. I'll check
> > tomorrow. I suspect they
> > >will dry and I'll brush and vac them and hopefully
> > they will be ok.
> >
> > One of the problems is that the regs MAY turn on and
> > discharge one or more
> > of your batteries. I had some of mine do that when
> > they got wet.
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All right, I just bought a pickup truck with flooded trojan 105s, with a
known history of ground faults. The UPS guy just delivered my PFC-30,
which I hope to mount in the truck this weekend. Not wanting any $450
repair bills, and to know about ground faults, I plan on installing a GFI
breaker in the truck, with the charger.
Surfing the Lowes and Home Depot web sites, it appears that what is easy
to get is either a "Square D 50Amp GFCI Spa Pack" for $118, which is a
plastic weather proof enclosure/breaker/gfi all in one, or 15 or 20A
single pole GFI breakers for closer to $30 each. Now for the questions:
Since the PFC-30 takes such a wide range of input voltages, will the 50A
GFI Spa pack be happy with both 110V and 220V connected to it's input?
Will it provide GFI protection at both voltages?
Can I use (2) 20A single pole breakers to provide good protection for the
charger/truck? Will they care what voltage they see?
I'm not sure what solution I would prefer. The charger has it's own
breaker, so I'm protected there. I already have a small Square D load
center, so the 50A spa pack I'm paying for things I don't need. But 20A
breakers won't let me take advantage of all the PFC-30 can put out (not
that my floodies can take it, but I have other things to charge besides
the truck...).
Most important concern is if the GFI breakers will still protect at both
voltages.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
Thanks,
Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive wrote:
The price difference comes from the fact that people use simple DC
controllers
not really made for EV use (just suitable to handle the job OK) and
compare *that*
to a specialized EV AC drives.
All of these controllers were designed and built for EVs.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
Mike, no doubt there are sharp engineers creating good designs, this is how
majority on this list got introduced to an EVs. Speaking of Curtis,
the circuit was designed with intent to run a DC motors which meant in turn
to be used in a vehicle, but the implementation hobby like.
Curtis controller doesn't even care if a motor or any other kind of load is
conected to it; all it does is PWM'ing battery voltage per throttle command.
Tell me a single EV specific parameter of this controller that will prevent
its use in non-EV application, such as a big light dimmer. It will work
just fine, meaning it is not EV specific, it is universal device and EVs
were
kept in mind as one of the uses it would be suitable for.
There are no means to optimize or even set any parameters to match the
battery, or particular motor, because it is not designed for a
particular motor.
The potting cannot handle outdoor temperatures without cracking, it is not
a waterproof design, not to mention that high voltage bars sticking out
exposed
to touch by anyone. No way such a design would be adapted by
any serious OEM manufacturer, not to mention to comply with ISO or any
other common standard. Hobby market this list represents is differnt
thing, we accept many things not intended for the job but happen to do
the job
just fine just to keep the cost low (Otmar's fishtank water pump idea
comes to
mind; imagine Toyota RAV4's with fish tank pumps installed, so you know what
I mean).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
``This is a technology that will promote the use of electric vehicles, but that's not
all,'' said the professor at Keio's Graduate School of Media and Governance. ``It also
promotes, for example, efficient use of electricity from wind power generators and
surplus electricity at night, which in turn will help stem global warming.''
http://www.asahi.com/english/business/TKY200410200153.html
Better then 14,000 AAAs
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The last time I asked... I got the NOPE!
Also the Floodies, can take it!!Water is really cheap... and
conductive.....hence your Leaks to chassis.
The GFI looks at the difference in current in your lines and between Neutral
and ground. There better NOT be any current flow in the GND green wire.
The 120 GFIs look at the line to neutral, and look for Gnd current. The 240s
looks at line to Gnd and line to Neutral. They have a large white Neutral
wire that has to be screwed to the GND bar inside the loadcenter or panel.
I ate 2 of them in really testing. The don't like the inductive inrush
on my 15Kw isotransformer and variac setup. At $100 a pop.. this got old in
a hurry.
I would wire in the 50 amp GFI circuit, and have this as my home monster
charge port. Also expect that you will have all sorts of problems keeping it
pulled in. A leaky old Flooded EV is going to have 100s of Ma of ground
current. Enough to ... tickle folks. You need to find a way to monitor your
leakages. Too much??? , find the issue, low enough to not care, keep on
charging.
But since your are NOT a newbie, and have some training...in EE type
issues, BeCarefull!! I don't do much trouble shooting with the charger on,
Unless I am looking for shorts and leaks. When in doubt flip the breaker
off.
What I am curious in finding out, Is what and where the leaks are , and
how much efforts are required to extinguish them all. Dual contactors???
Antiseptically clean Flooded batteries, Meter leaks and Dc/DC isolation
violations.... And how fast they come back once solved and fixed. Not
boiling the pack to Death on every charge cycle, may be all that is needed
to solve the issue.
I really hope to NOT see your charger back here.
Also I have issues with fully isolated systems, that are NOT isolated. Why
we don't know yet. but it's really bad to have a $4700 isolation transformer
installed infront of a PFC50 and still have 55 volts of leakage at 200 to
400 Ma of current, and how that leakage happens is Black magic at this time.
Capacitive coupling ... is the only possible vector, or something in the
system that I have nothing to do with is messing up my measurements. It's a
large system.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:53 PM
Subject: GFIs, ground faults and PFC-30 chargers
> All right, I just bought a pickup truck with flooded trojan 105s, with a
> known history of ground faults. The UPS guy just delivered my PFC-30,
> which I hope to mount in the truck this weekend. Not wanting any $450
> repair bills, and to know about ground faults, I plan on installing a GFI
> breaker in the truck, with the charger.
>
> Surfing the Lowes and Home Depot web sites, it appears that what is easy
> to get is either a "Square D 50Amp GFCI Spa Pack" for $118, which is a
> plastic weather proof enclosure/breaker/gfi all in one, or 15 or 20A
> single pole GFI breakers for closer to $30 each. Now for the questions:
>
> Since the PFC-30 takes such a wide range of input voltages, will the 50A
> GFI Spa pack be happy with both 110V and 220V connected to it's input?
> Will it provide GFI protection at both voltages?
>
> Can I use (2) 20A single pole breakers to provide good protection for the
> charger/truck? Will they care what voltage they see?
>
> I'm not sure what solution I would prefer. The charger has it's own
> breaker, so I'm protected there. I already have a small Square D load
> center, so the 50A spa pack I'm paying for things I don't need. But 20A
> breakers won't let me take advantage of all the PFC-30 can put out (not
> that my floodies can take it, but I have other things to charge besides
> the truck...).
>
> Most important concern is if the GFI breakers will still protect at both
> voltages.
>
> Any thoughts/suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steven Ciciora
>
--- End Message ---
