EV Digest 3886
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Nokian tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Running clutchless?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Thanks :)
by "Jocker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motorcycle transmissions
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re:
by "Joes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thank you!
by "Vanderwp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ETEK Motor Info
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motorcycle transmissions
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ETEK Motor Info
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: ETEK Motor Info
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re:
by "Vanderwp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 3rd clutch option
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Lynch motor and controller FS (Was: RE: ETEK Motor Info)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Easy 300VDC
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Clutchless
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Dump Charging...- for PbA only.
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: FCEV are EV's too
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Clutchless
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Clutchless
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Easy 300VDC
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Scooter battery balancer ( Long, Data, Data)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 3rd clutch option
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Here is where I got my NRT2's. . 800 852 5222 University Wholesalers,
INC. Colchester, VT. Lawrence Rhodes....
I mail ordered mine out of Michigan. Although they say free shipping,
the in store price was less. Still cheaper than the Potenzas. Al
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Running clutchless?
> Hi Claudio,
>
> I would recommend that you keep the clutch. First, those two-second
> shifts will be more annoying than you think. Second, in many cars the
> pilot shaft on the transmission is designed to be supported on the
> engine side by the pilot bushing in the end of the crank. Many
> clutchless adapters do away with this pilot bushing and leave the shaft
> unsupported on one end. Eventually this can wear out the bearing on
> the other end of the shaft in the transmission. I did an clutchless
> S10 and was very unhappy to be without my clutch. My Datsun 240Z is
> getting a nice CenterForce racing clutch! My 2 cents. Good luck on
> your conversion.
>
> Seth
>
> Hi Claudio;
I secoond Seth's comments above. I have a 82 Rabbit I converted years and
70k miles ago. You will be happier with the clutch/ tranny setup the car
came with. Ease to shift into reverse, no need to buy reversing contacters,
quick gear changes, syncros will last longer, all that.
Hey! Keep us informed as ya go. Nobody should hafta go this alone! We're
here for you. Welcome. Where are ya? May be other Listers just around the
corner?
Seeya
Bob
>
> On Oct 28, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Claudio Natoli wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > this lurker is about to start on his first conversion (small car), and,
> > following on from the recent (and very helpful!) discussion over
> > flywheel
> > machining, I had the following question:
> >
> > Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
> >
> > My conversion is going to be a commuter, so quick changes down the drag
> > strip aren't a must. Judging by my calcs, I figure I'll have the odd
> > change
> > from 2nd to 3rd gear in the zippier parts of my commute... and I'm just
> > working on the assumption that changing gears without a clutch will be
> > pretty straightforward with an EV (ie. come off "gas", drop in
> > neutral, push
> > toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm
> > guessing
> > should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
> > paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
> >
> > If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly,
> > and
> > losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
> > parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I
> > really
> > ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other
> > hand, are
> > there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Claudio
> >
> > ---
> > Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from
> > Memetrics.
> > For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see
> > <a
> > href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html";>http://
> > www.memetrics.com/em
> > ailpolicy.html</a>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> '72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
>
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Rev. could you please outline the speed and shifting pattern with the K
series. Is it a 4 or 5 speed box? Is the top gear too high/or low? It
looks so good too bad you have ratio problems. Aught to be able to cruise
easily at 70 given the right ratio. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: Motorcycle transmissions
If you need to use a tranny on your bike I think the
best solution is the harley trans. It has a clutch
attached which is driven by a chain or belt. you can
adjust this primary ratio with the drive sprocket on
your motor.
My BMW is whicked in first gear, but I usualy use
third to start and wish I had three more to keep going
with. it will do 60 but the torque has really fallen
off by then.
For my mext bike I will be using the harley style
trans, an older four speed box, and I will be changing
the primary ratio so that my rpms will be at about 2
grand at highway speeds.
Gadget
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not sure if I asked the list before. I'm planning
to do an EV
motorcycle, and I'm looking for an appropriate
transmission.
Most motorcycle transmissions are integrated with
the engine, with
shared engine oil and a wet clutch. Naturally, with
an electric motor
this isn't really an option, as you'd have to
separate the transmission
from the motor, which seems needlessly difficult.
Factors:
1) Torque rating -- Can it handle the torque / HP?
2) Price
3) Unit cannot be too much wider than the width of
the bike (preferably
< 18")
4) Preferably, with input/output shafts parallel
5) Assuming an electric reverse (if any), 2 speeds
(gears) should be enough
Options:
Harley transmission
BSA / Triumph transmission
Small car transmission (Geo Metro)
Custom
Something else
A Harley transmission is (by far) the easiest to
acquire, though due to
the demand, often go for > $700 even for a used one.
A new one is $900
- $3000. The BSA / Triumph transmissions (aka
"preunit") tend to be
cheaper, but are more difficult to find. Also, they
/appear/
considerably less beefy than the Harley & it's
clones. I've looked at
the Metro transmission, and it appears a good deal
of cutting and
modifying would be necessary. I'm open to
suggestions for other
small-ish car transmissions. I've even looked at
the overdrive units
found on (I think) Volvos; they're 2-speed, but the
ration difference is
really small. Also, the 2-speed "transfer case"
from a 4wd might be an
option.
I don't see a problem with using a "custom" type
transmission, though
cost and availability is a concern.
I'm not locked into a "made for a motorcycle"
transmission. If there's
a small car / ATV / Industrial(!) tranny that fits
the bill (and the
frame), I'd be willing to consider it.
Anyone out there have any suggestions?
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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You need PERM or Lynch motor (60V) to have fun, more powerfull than etek,
more pricey too.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: ETEK Motor Info
> What other motors is there that compare to the Etek and can be safely
> run at 72vdc? Preferably in that price range, maybe a little higher. I
> am looking for a small-package motor that can easily be located on a
> lightweight motorcycle.
>
> I am currently using a 6.7" AC4 (Tropica motor) in my current
> conversion, but on this chassis, I had the room. I am running at 72VDC
> with an Alltrax controller. I'm about 2 to 3 weeks from having it on the
> road and already working up designs for the next one...
>
> Thanks for the help!
>
> Shawn Waggoner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 05:35
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ETEK Motor Info
>
> Your math may be right but probably real life curves is not linear, PERM
> 132
> (24-72V) data show a 1000A stall current on a 25milli-ohms resistance,
> so
> with higher resistance, Etek should be less.
> Because of EMF, stall current should be with lower voltage than max one.
> There are few Etek/Alltrax-scooter at 60/72V and i know one motorbike.
> There
> is minimal issue at 60V if you keep max current far lower than original
> spec. and monitor temperature but at 72V you are definately out of spec.
> You are going to change brushes often and absolutely need a controller
> which
> deal with low inductance.
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:23 AM
> Subject: RE: ETEK Motor Info
>
>
> > First, I don't have experience with my ETEK at 72v, but only 36v for
> my
> electric boat:
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
> >
> > But, here's something to consider:
> >
> > The ETEK motor has only something like 32milli-ohms of resistance.
> Thus,
> the stall current at 48v computes to be about 1500amps. So at 72v, the
> ETEK
> stall current would be about 2250amps. While inductance, series
> resistance
> and of course motor speed help to reduce the stress on the controller,
> it's
> something to consider.
> >
> > -Myles Twete, Portland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Motorcycle transmissions
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:22:51 -0700
Performance is my main reason for a transmission. I have an ICE
motorcycle, and I'd rather not "downgrade".
I'll let you in on a secret that I will probably get crucified for. Anytime
you convert from an ICE to a BEV it is going to be a downgrade. You will
certainly be able to get ICE like performance from an EM, but don't expect
to be able to get that kind of performance for more than 5 miles unless of
course you are planning on wading into the very expensive and practically
uncharted territory of Lithium cells.
Our battery technology is still very limiting. You can build an EV for
speed or for range, but you still cannot have both, unless you are willing
to pay 10 times the price of a similar performing ICE.
I love my electric motorcycle and there are very good reasons for having
EV's and lots of situations where they fit the bill, but you will not be
able to build an electric motorcycle with the same perfomance and
functionallity as an ICE version. My motorcycle turned out to be a
compromise of performance and range. When I completely get my latest NiCad
pack built I expect to have between 15 - 20 miles range with small car type
performance and a total price tag of under $2000. I could get it to what I
was hoping to achieve when I first started the project, which was to make my
26 mile one way commute to work over nasty hills and with lots of freeway
speeds if I went out and spent ~$6000 on some new Li-Poly cells, but I don't
see me going that route anytime soon. I actually did take it to work one
time last year with a very large pack of NiCads, but I came up a couple
miles short on range and a bit underpowered on the hills. Still, my
motorcycle (and most EVs) are put together in such a way, that it is just
awaiting the arrival of the miracle battery to transform it into an ICE
killer. Nothing else needs to be changed. I just need to drop in the
unobtanium wonder cells :-)
You can make a very high performance EV motorcycle, but when your buddies
invite you along on their Saturday morning ride up into the mountains, you
will find yourself leaving the EM at home.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
lots more pricey
i bought an etek for my bike project but i might live
to regret it it seems
has any one run an etek at 60V ?
is it any better and what issues are involved?
reb
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> You need PERM or Lynch motor (60V) to have fun, more
> powerfull than etek,
> more pricey too.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:09 PM
> Subject: RE: ETEK Motor Info
>
>
> > What other motors is there that compare to the
> Etek and can be safely
> > run at 72vdc? Preferably in that price range,
> maybe a little higher. I
> > am looking for a small-package motor that can
> easily be located on a
> > lightweight motorcycle.
> >
> > I am currently using a 6.7" AC4 (Tropica motor) in
> my current
> > conversion, but on this chassis, I had the room. I
> am running at 72VDC
> > with an Alltrax controller. I'm about 2 to 3 weeks
> from having it on the
> > road and already working up designs for the next
> one...
> >
> > Thanks for the help!
> >
> > Shawn Waggoner
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 05:35
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ETEK Motor Info
> >
> > Your math may be right but probably real life
> curves is not linear, PERM
> > 132
> > (24-72V) data show a 1000A stall current on a
> 25milli-ohms resistance,
> > so
> > with higher resistance, Etek should be less.
> > Because of EMF, stall current should be with lower
> voltage than max one.
> > There are few Etek/Alltrax-scooter at 60/72V and i
> know one motorbike.
> > There
> > is minimal issue at 60V if you keep max current
> far lower than original
> > spec. and monitor temperature but at 72V you are
> definately out of spec.
> > You are going to change brushes often and
> absolutely need a controller
> > which
> > deal with low inductance.
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> >
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:23 AM
> > Subject: RE: ETEK Motor Info
> >
> >
> > > First, I don't have experience with my ETEK at
> 72v, but only 36v for
> > my
> > electric boat:
> > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
> > >
> > > But, here's something to consider:
> > >
> > > The ETEK motor has only something like
> 32milli-ohms of resistance.
> > Thus,
> > the stall current at 48v computes to be about
> 1500amps. So at 72v, the
> > ETEK
> > stall current would be about 2250amps. While
> inductance, series
> > resistance
> > and of course motor speed help to reduce the
> stress on the controller,
> > it's
> > something to consider.
> > >
> > > -Myles Twete, Portland
> >
> >
>
>
=====
Regards
Richard
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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>You need PERM or Lynch motor (60V) to have fun, more powerfull than
etek,
>more pricey too.
Who sells the Lynch motors here in the US?
Shawn Waggoner
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Joe has been doing RC sized NIcads with a PFC20 and the pre code for the
monster chargers for years.
The numbers just get bigger. And how and what we count.
The monster code tracks volts amps Amphours Kwhr, and graphs them realtime.
This drive code makes the monster charger anything But Dumb. The data
logging and tracking is lab grade work.
We can do plots and send and post the results. We can create data logs on
every and any charge cycle. I want loadable personality files for evey
different client and or EV.
I am getting what I want... but slowly.
IF you can write down how you want us to charge a battery, We can do it.
So...we have little fear we can make it happen.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> Will that include Ni Cad. Can that be incorporated into the PFC's yet?
> Lawrence Rhodes........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
>
>
> >
> > Victor..
> > My high amp customer... Is NOT lead Acid.
> > He wants more that I can bring him.
> >
> > He is NOT you. Or most of my other customers.
> >
> > The charger WILL be flexable... I could charge your Ev at 8 amps...
> >
> > The charger will need no further hardware efforts to cover just about
any
> > voltage and charge curves.
> > That's what I Promised my Client...
> >
>
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There are racing clutches for 10,000 rpm http://www.10000rpm.com
I wouldn't give up diameter on the clutch if you are going to have a
powerful conversion. Bigger diameter = more torque holding.
Also, safety would dictate surrounding a 10k rpm clutch with a
scattershield per NHRA rules.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> Maybe we shouldn't be thinking clutch or not and shift to EVclutch
> or
> ICE clutch.
>
> ICE are big with lots of mass cause it helps the ICE be more like
> an
> electric motor.
> EV needs light, small dia, high torque.
>
> Are there any clutches on lightweight flywheels, like the tilton
> racing
> clutch, that we can retrofit.
>
> Feroomagnetic clutches? eletromagnetic industrial clutches?
>
> how about a band clutch and a planatery gear set, we could then put
> a
> 10K rpm AC on a stock tranny :-)
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
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--- Begin Message ---
In case anyone wants to pony up for a Lynch, David Rieker in Portland, Or.
has been listing one for sale in the Oregonian newspaper for at least a
couple weeks now. Here's the ad:
Lynch electric vehicle motor and controller for light weight vehicle, 10kw,
$1500.
503-860-8777
I just spoke with him and he actually has about 5 unused Lynch motors he
had purchased a while back, but doesn't now need.
Along with the Lynch, he's including a Curtis 72v controller and a PotBox.
Again, in case anyone's wanting to pony up for a Lynch.
-Myles Twete, Portland
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Right now...
you load the code..
key in C for taper charge
there are 4 flavors Test, cycle,taper, and manual mode
Give it a file name
key in :
Max volts
Max current
Max Amphoure
Min amps to terminate charge cycle.
hit enter:
The main contactor pulls in(250 amp Czonka Killvac)
The screen clears and the graph is drawn.
the amps are drawn from 0 to the peak
The volts are tracked from the resting V to the current voltage.
The bottom of the graph has digital numbers changing the graph shows the
results.
Nice, We are adding stuff and features as Joe gets the time.
This has been boring at 20 amps a little more exciting at 40 amps.
At 45 amps and over the RF noises start to effect the Data collection and
control buss. I park my hand on the main Breaker... waiting for a current
excursion. ABit tense....
After the last run...ER Runaway.... we have totally relaid out the data
modules... changed how and when we read and update them.... And are getting
ready for the next full power run.
The old PFC#1 had some stability issues... That we didn't know about....
PFC50 #28 has run at full amps under software control.. without
excitment....
#28 is the latest newest "X rev" level charger. IT Better run right!!! It
will have a litter mate #29 sometime today.
This weekend I should have all 3 PFC50s loaded into the Monster charger
frame and wired up. The Joe still has alot of testing to do, and noise
control tests and issues.
I could run all three power processors ... manually If I want to.
We will take it a step at a time...
I also need to install a 180 amp breaker into Goldies Big charge port. It's
70 amps right now... goodenough for a single PFC50... But not 3 at atime!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:44 PM
Subject: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
> So, how could users who the charger doesn't know already quickly
> program their particular charge profile needs?
>
> How about a PFC-Program card they carry arround...
>
> It might be a piece of plastic with hard coded jumpers that when
> inserted are read as critical settings, max voltage, max current, etc...
>
> It could me a more high tech solution like any one of many data on
> a card solutions...
>
> How about a USB sollution, USB "Thumb drives" are cheap and universally
> compatible with computers everywhere... Use a PFC profile program on
> any pc to create a Thumb_Drive:/PFCsetup.txt file with all the settings.
> Then get the PFC/brain to read this file and load up the settings, could
> even log the charge progress back to that drive!
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> ps. Just trying to figure out how to charge my scooter in 10 seconds
> flat (Grin). But seriousely, With a larger Li-ion pack in my car I
> may someday want to Charge up in 88 minutes (which is fast).
>
> Here's my datapoint from cycle 21, multiply by up to 6000 cells:
> First a single cell, my scooter @100, motorcycle @600, car @6000 cells.
> - single - Discharge:767mAh:22 Charge:772mAh:88(1.3 hours) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - * 100 - Discharge:77 Ah :22 Charge:77 Ah :60 Amps/8 series [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - * 600 - Discharge:460Ah :22 Charge:463Ah :360Amps/10series [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - * 6000 - Discharge:4600Ah:22 Charge:4630Ah:3600Amps/100s [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> anyway... nevermind my nonsense... carry on...
>
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Clearly I am still assembleing the needed gear, and brains and firmware.
> > Granny CAN charge with it... IF it is already programmed for her use.
> > Like it's ready for a fleet of Sparrows.... or any 156 volt AGM PbLa
> > pack......Right now!
> > Sorry I could not resist
>
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A PFC 30 and a isolation transformer comes to mind.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:21 AM
Subject: Easy 300VDC
> For testing the various components **before** they are installed into the
> car, I am wanting to have a 300VDC 2kw power supply. Any suggestions for
> how I can do this **cheaply**?
>
> What comes to mind are:
> - a bunch more test batteries
> - a voltage double circuit of some sort
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am also considering a clutchless system, actually a clutchless and shiftless type of
system. a micro controller and gear boxes would take care of the shifting and RPM
matching, but the question is, how does the uC know what RPM to match? I can easily
put an encoder on the flywheel, but what internal gear should I be tracking....and
how? I plan on keeping the clutch in there for the "mechanical fuse" advantage...
Brian B.
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I am considering the same but I also like
>> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
>>
>
>
>If you can search the archives, Bill Dube (sometimes spelled Bill Dube')
>had some good comments about the huge shock to the transmission when you
>hit a pothole.
good point
>As for me, I'm going clutchless, but hopefully not shiftless. My AC motor
>can spin almost 10K rpm, and the thought of spinning a massive clutch
>plate that fast scares me. The balance shop would not touch it after I
>told him how fast it might go. And I was worried that the slighest
>imbalance would bend the motor shaft.
>What I ended up doing is machining an adaptor out of 7075 aluminum that
>holds the inner portion of the clutch. It still has the springs between
>the two parts of the clutch to help take up some of the shock, and a tiny
>amount of misalignment. As for shifting, since my controler supports
>regen, I believe I can make an embedded controller that will measure the
>motor speed and the speed of the gears I will shift to, and quickly match
>the RPMs for easier shifting.
Awsome, My first idea was to use PM motors and a lot of shifting and was thinking of
the same type of shift control.
>I probably didn't need my home made adaptor balanced because they only
>drilled two little holes (I'm sure just to make me feel like I got
>something for my money!).
>"What?!? you charged me $40 just to drill those two tiny little holes???"
> "No, I charged you one dollar to drill those holes. I charged you $39 to
>figure out where to put those holes!" :-)
Here is how we balance grinding wheels
1. we have a pair of level parallel bars
2. we put wheel on shaft and let the heavy part find the low spot, and mark it
3. for the wheels there are weights onthe hub we can move, but on the flywheel I would
drill the hole a tad then re-mount
4. place back on level at same location and rotate it 90 degrees either way
if it is balanced, it stays there, otherwise it falls back to the same heavy point
(I used to wonder if it would ever find a new spot, but it never did)
repeat until done
this is done on the grinding wheels or the oscilations cause ripples in the surface, I
think it would work for flywheels perfectly.
I will be giving it a try sooner or later. :-)
>>
- Steven Ciciora
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
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--- Begin Message ---
Comment interspersed.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> That is RC model battery. IT does not requires a BMS which should
> handle
> 4C current too - you're forgetting that. A collection of enough
> loose
> batteries
> capable of handling 4C charge each, is not a ready to use traction
> pack.
> ...
> Have you seen non-flooded NiCD EV size battery? Forget toy RC
> battery
> if you're serious and want 5-7 years of the pack life, about the
> same as
> the car
> itself. I'd like to learn if it exists. The only one intended for
> the
> job (SAFT)
> I know. Ask them if they will keep your warranty after 4C charging.
> Doing thoudands of D cells just because nothing else is available
> is just as impractical and hobby-like s doing thousands of 18650
> cells
> ACP did for show where the cost was not a priority but PR and being
> first were.
You'll have to concede that at least such a thing has not failed yet.
:) , and going over 200 mph (probably around 1000 amps for about 2
full minutes) is a promising sign. Nicads are very tolerant of
charging abuse, you "BMS" them by 10% or so overcharge. Tool nicads
often get spec'd to put in all the Ah every night. I often just leave
my tool nicads constantly on the charger, and they still last many
years. Granted this is a long way from a pack of 3000 cells, but I
don't see the concept as doomed.
> And how long an RC model battery last? Let's rephrase it - how
> much does
> the owner care if replacement is so cheap - few dollars?
> Convenience of
> 15 min recharge between flights worth throwing it away after 50-100
> cycles.
> I'm sure every moderer carries on the field one -two spare batts
> just in
> case.
> Can you aford couple of EV traction packs laying around just in
> case?
The battlebot guys claim little nicads last about 4 times as long as
Hawker batteries, and will give the same run time on 1/3 the weight.
Note, this is not with any generic Nicad, so far that I've searched
it seems only the Sanyo N3000CR cells are this good.
> Now, I'm not saying that it is impossible to make fast recharging
> non-lead acid
> battery. But I don't see why would anyone seriously bother if
> relatively
> slow one
> already fits normal human driving abilities - 5-6 hrs of driving
> time a
> day easy.
> 8 hrs doable. More than 8 hrs are so rare cases (compare to
> average), that
> no one will develop special batteries just for those people. Take a
> hybrid
> instead if you do 400 miles a day every day.
Fast recharge batteries can better exploit regen, and are better
suited to hybrid and FC vehicles. Quick recharges would enable
smaller, cheaper battery packs and long distance travel.
A final thought, doing a Lion/Nicad hybrid pack might be the
ultimate. The Sanyos have about 30% higher power than Orbitals per
kg, and about double the run time at high currents per kg, and accept
charge very fast. Lion would have the energy density. You could be
fast and long. Out of curiousity, how much do your supercapacitors
cost and weigh? I'd like to compare them to an equivalent weight of
Sanyos.
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Rich Rudman wrote:
> ALLLLRIght!!!
> A hybrid that can get with it.
> And it's a Ford!!
>
> > I got the CVT and can't believe the performance!I
> > punched the thing at 60 and left my wife following me
> > in the BMW in the dust. I'll scan the specs and post
> > them to my site.
Now you're making me anxious for mine to arrive --- it's only a week
and a half away now... (supposedly)
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
This fall, we have the choice between a police state and a nanny state.
Both want most of our money and liberty, but the liberties one will take
are a lot more severe than the other...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,
I've been considering something not quite as ambitious, but up the same
alley. I was planning to put an RPM sensor on the motor's opposite-end
shaft (or on the clutchless adapter itself), and another on the speedometer
cable. Then pass the two inputs through a logic chip which would light one
of several LEDs on the dash to tell when the speeds matched for shifting
into a given gear, and when the speeds were between gears--maybe a green LED
for each gear, with a red LED between each gear. I figured this would help
not only me, but someone else who might be driving the EV and not be as
comfortable with clutchless shifting.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of brian baumel
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Clutchless
I am also considering a clutchless system, actually a clutchless and
shiftless type of system. a micro controller and gear boxes would take care
of the shifting and RPM matching, but the question is, how does the uC know
what RPM to match? I can easily put an encoder on the flywheel, but what
internal gear should I be tracking....and how? I plan on keeping the clutch
in there for the "mechanical fuse" advantage...
Brian B.
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I am considering the same but I also like
>> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
>>
>
>
>If you can search the archives, Bill Dube (sometimes spelled Bill Dube')
>had some good comments about the huge shock to the transmission when you
>hit a pothole.
good point
>As for me, I'm going clutchless, but hopefully not shiftless. My AC motor
>can spin almost 10K rpm, and the thought of spinning a massive clutch
>plate that fast scares me. The balance shop would not touch it after I
>told him how fast it might go. And I was worried that the slighest
>imbalance would bend the motor shaft.
>What I ended up doing is machining an adaptor out of 7075 aluminum that
>holds the inner portion of the clutch. It still has the springs between
>the two parts of the clutch to help take up some of the shock, and a tiny
>amount of misalignment. As for shifting, since my controler supports
>regen, I believe I can make an embedded controller that will measure the
>motor speed and the speed of the gears I will shift to, and quickly match
>the RPMs for easier shifting.
Awsome, My first idea was to use PM motors and a lot of shifting and was
thinking of the same type of shift control.
>I probably didn't need my home made adaptor balanced because they only
>drilled two little holes (I'm sure just to make me feel like I got
>something for my money!).
>"What?!? you charged me $40 just to drill those two tiny little holes???"
> "No, I charged you one dollar to drill those holes. I charged you $39 to
>figure out where to put those holes!" :-)
Here is how we balance grinding wheels
1. we have a pair of level parallel bars
2. we put wheel on shaft and let the heavy part find the low spot, and mark
it
3. for the wheels there are weights onthe hub we can move, but on the
flywheel I would drill the hole a tad then re-mount
4. place back on level at same location and rotate it 90 degrees either way
if it is balanced, it stays there, otherwise it falls back to the same heavy
point
(I used to wonder if it would ever find a new spot, but it never did)
repeat until done
this is done on the grinding wheels or the oscilations cause ripples in the
surface, I think it would work for flywheels perfectly.
I will be giving it a try sooner or later. :-)
>>
- Steven Ciciora
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may not need to be that fancy. If you have the motor's rpm you
can do a simple algorithm:
If near max rpm, drop to 2/3 this rpm for the next gear up (2/3
or whatever the ratio that car has.
If low rpm, increase rpm by 1.5 (or whatever that car's ratio is)
To improve this you could also take into account the car's speed.
Next step in complexity would be to put sensors on the shift to see
what thet intended gear is.
--- brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am also considering a clutchless system, actually a clutchless
> and shiftless type of system. a micro controller and gear boxes
> would take care of the shifting and RPM matching, but the question
> is, how does the uC know what RPM to match? I can easily put an
> encoder on the flywheel, but what internal gear should I be
> tracking....and how? I plan on keeping the clutch in there for the
> "mechanical fuse" advantage...
>
> Brian B.
>
> Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> I am considering the same but I also like
> >> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
> >>
> >
> >
>
> >If you can search the archives, Bill Dube (sometimes spelled Bill
> Dube')
> >had some good comments about the huge shock to the transmission
> when you
> >hit a pothole.
>
> good point
>
> >As for me, I'm going clutchless, but hopefully not shiftless. My
> AC motor
> >can spin almost 10K rpm, and the thought of spinning a massive
> clutch
> >plate that fast scares me. The balance shop would not touch it
> after I
> >told him how fast it might go. And I was worried that the slighest
> >imbalance would bend the motor shaft.
>
> >What I ended up doing is machining an adaptor out of 7075 aluminum
> that
> >holds the inner portion of the clutch. It still has the springs
> between
> >the two parts of the clutch to help take up some of the shock, and
> a tiny
> >amount of misalignment. As for shifting, since my controler
> supports
> >regen, I believe I can make an embedded controller that will
> measure the
> >motor speed and the speed of the gears I will shift to, and
> quickly match
> >the RPMs for easier shifting.
>
> Awsome, My first idea was to use PM motors and a lot of shifting
> and was thinking of the same type of shift control.
>
> >I probably didn't need my home made adaptor balanced because they
> only
> >drilled two little holes (I'm sure just to make me feel like I got
> >something for my money!).
>
> >"What?!? you charged me $40 just to drill those two tiny little
> holes???"
> > "No, I charged you one dollar to drill those holes. I charged you
> $39 to
> >figure out where to put those holes!" :-)
>
> Here is how we balance grinding wheels
> 1. we have a pair of level parallel bars
> 2. we put wheel on shaft and let the heavy part find the low spot,
> and mark it
> 3. for the wheels there are weights onthe hub we can move, but on
> the flywheel I would drill the hole a tad then re-mount
> 4. place back on level at same location and rotate it 90 degrees
> either way
> if it is balanced, it stays there, otherwise it falls back to the
> same heavy point
> (I used to wonder if it would ever find a new spot, but it never
> did)
> repeat until done
> this is done on the grinding wheels or the oscilations cause
> ripples in the surface, I think it would work for flywheels
> perfectly.
>
>
> I will be giving it a try sooner or later. :-)
>
>
>
>
> >>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:21:27 -0700, "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>For testing the various components **before** they are installed into the
>car, I am wanting to have a 300VDC 2kw power supply. Any suggestions for
>how I can do this **cheaply**?
>
>What comes to mind are:
> - a bunch more test batteries
> - a voltage double circuit of some sort
>
Figure about $500 a kw for a transformer-based unregulated supply from
Peter Dahl and Associates. I don't know if he'll make one that small or
not. It will require added expense in the form of additional filter caps
to make it as stiff as a battery stack, something you'd want if you want
to evaluate all the components outside the car. The supply would have to
be fairly heavily loaded with ballast resistors to achieve any sort of
voltage regulation.
Why not use the pack you plan on installing in the car? Then you exactly
duplicate the car environment and don't have to spend money on something
you'd have little use for after testing.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I left my wife's electric bike on charge for 5 years. Her batteries
> are the best we have. It is a Currie conversion with the fast charger.
Lawrence, do you know what her charger is actually doing? What charging
algorithm does it use? What voltage is it holding the batteries at
long-term? That will tell you why it worked when so many others don't.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Maybe we shouldn't be thinking clutch or not and shift to EVclutch or
> ICE clutch.
The "ultimate" solution is probably to eliminate the clutch, but put a
tach on the motor and transmission shafts. Have a feedback and control
system that drives the motor speed to match the gear speed. Then you can
just drop it into any gear without grinding.
I think this is rarely done because it is trickier than it sounds! On
the other hand, maybe not enough people have tried...
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
