EV Digest 3918
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: please help with cable specs
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Would like to catch up, been unsubscribed for a while...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) STM5-180 NiCad, recycling no problem
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Conversions
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Conversions
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Recycle Ni-Cads
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High Capacity Li-Polymer Cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Ni-Cad charging
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: please help with cable specs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: please help with cable specs
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:28:25 -0800, Roger Stockton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> richard ball [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > what is the
> > metric equivalent of #4 welding cable and how is this
> > different to AWG 2? the current draw on the etek is 300+
> > Amps max what cable and lugs does everyone think I should use
>
> Here is a handy table of AWG vs diameter and crossection in mm and mm^2:
>
> <http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html>
>
> Here is a table of ampacity for copper cable:
>
> <http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_3/2.html>
>
> Either #4 or #2 will work fine since your Etec can't take 300A+ for very
> long at all before it fries, and your controller probably can't supply
> it for very long either. #4 is pretty typical in golf carts and NEVs
> with peak currents in the same 300-400A ballpark. If your vehicle can
> afford the additional weight of the #2, it would be a nice option.
Agreed. I tried a Lynch motor recently - due to the small 6mm
terminals, the only suitable lugs I could find were for 16mm^2 cable
(close to AWG #5), so that's what I used. There was only a couple of
feet of cable so even though it got a bit warm, there wasn't much
power lost. The rest of the car is wired with 35mm^2 cable, which is
a lot heavier.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Had been subscribed to the list for a while. Left the country for 4 months
or so - just got back a few weeks ago. Was unsubscribed the whole time I was
gone. Just resubscribed. Would like to catch up on a few things, to those who
don't mind catching me up.
Would like to know what's been going on with that crazy "suck amps" mail
wagon up in the northwest somewhere, and also the other car by a guy named...
Wayland was it? Anyway, has there been any more racing? Any more records
broken,
etc? Last news I had before I left was that Wayland had broken 100 or so and
had gotten it down into some record as far as 13's (or was it high 12's?).
The mail truck, I believe, was still being worked on, and hadn't done much as
far as racing since the "suck amps" Discovery Channel thing. That is, if
memory serves correctly.
On another note - turned on C-SPAN the other day and saw the Ford Motor
Company CEO speaking. He was talking about "the future being hydrogen." What
is
the opinion of the "list intelligencia" on this one? Does it require more
energy to make the hydrogen than you would get out of it? Of course, I know
that
probably has no bearing on whether the auto industry develops it or not - I'm
just curious is all. It would be interesting to hear the range of opinions -
from the "arm waving true believers" (TM) as Neon John put it a long time ago,
heh, to the Neon John types themselves (if he or they are even still around).
On a third note - I haven't bought gas in 4 months or so. It seems to be
around $2 a gallon where I am. Tell me, what is the point at which it becomes
"undeniably economically feasible" to own an EV, in terms of price of gasoline?
Again, I'm sure there are a range of opinions - all welcome. But surely
everyone agrees that there is a "cut off point" somewhere? The question is,
where
is that price?
If anything I ask has either been covered ad-infinitum, or is borderline off
topic, then please forgive, and you are welcome to respond off list.
Thanks!
Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't see one in Dimensions catalogue, I will phone them later today and
see if they can custom do one. I know they make them in 24volt, so going to
36 might be easy for them. Dimensions is an industrial duty inverter, and
will come with a hefty price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI
----- Original Message -----
From: Magnarella, Louis
To: Mark Hanson
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: Fw: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
Mark,
If that's what you want to do. Of course, Ah is the same, but we like to charge
at 2C rate, which is 36Ah.
Also, no problem whatsoever to dispose of them.
Just send them back to our Valdosta, GA Facility and we'll properly dispose of
them.
Lou
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:04 PM
To: Magnarella, Louis
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
Hi Louis,
Thanks for the info. Why does it matter if I charge for 14A at 13 hours or 7A
at 26 hours, wouldn't the AH put back be the same?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 00:00, Brian Staffanson wrote:
> I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission.
> I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on
> the motor. How bad would this be to the motor or transmission?
Vibration shortens bearing life and is annoying to the driver. Odds are
if it is noticible in your experimenting it is too much. You may want
to take the flywheel to a balancing shop, or use the Otmar "washer"
balancing system (in the EV archives).
> Does
> the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a
> little bit at low speeds?
A little bit at low speeds is usually a lot at higher speeds.
> car, (it is a 1974 VW Beetle). Would it be better closer to the
> batteries or the motor? If it is closer to the batteries, it will be
> out of the elements. No rain will affect it, but it might not get real
> good cooling. If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air
> flow VW designed for the ICE, and would have less power loss, with
> shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I
> would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Ideally the controller->motor leads should be as short as possible to
decrease electrical noise. The Curtis is better protected against water
than most controllers and can be very limited by heat, so I would place
it in the engine compartment. Try to build shields to protect it from
direct water spray.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
> what a pitty being on this side off the pond, i now about 80 like new
> STM5-140MR sitting and nobody to use them....because here in France there
is
> no way to put a conversion on the road, law is law :^(
>
> Philippe
Wow, I thought there, it was fairly progressive, probably worried about Joe
six-pack driving something unsafe, but they could just as well pass an
inspection though. I wonder if there are other places where they don't allow
conversions. I guess that could inadvertently happen here if there were a
lot of factory EV's running around and conversions got legislated out. That
would certainly *ruin* my day if I couldn't convert (read afford) an EV.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett wrote:
<snip>
> Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered
> 60hz 110 sine
> wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters,
> OR know of
> a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave
> into 220 60 hz?
Hi James,
I'm quite interested in this as well. I haven't determined yet what kind of
waveform the motor on my shredder wants to see, but I suspect it wants a
real sine wave. I didn't find much available with 36VDC input. Nor for
modified sine wave inverters either. For me (maybe you too?) it seems there
might be some hope of finding a 36 VDC UPS system on eBay for a reasonable
price, if a modified sine wave is OK. These are typically described as
suitable for computers, telecomm, etc. Not sure what your needs are
regarding waveform.
Any guidelines on what applications really need a true sine wave?
Particularly the motor I posted about ("How to drive my shredder")?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got off the phone with Dimensions, they do make 36volt input 60hz
inverters. They have two models a 3200watt 110/220 and a 5800watt 110/220
with a 30amp circuit. They are both Quasi-sine wave, which is really just a
high quality modified sine wave. So any equipment with SCR's won't like
them. Dimensions is like the leader in EMS and industrial duty inverters.
(my customers use them 24/7 to run shops out of their vans) I can get you
some more details if you like. They both weigh over 80 pounds so shipping is
going to cost $$$. The inverters themselves list at $4070.00 and $5160.00US.
I can get you a discount off that price, so just use that to put you in the
ballpark.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:59:38 -0500, Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi James,
>
> I'm quite interested in this as well. I haven't determined yet what kind of
> waveform the motor on my shredder wants to see, but I suspect it wants a
> real sine wave. I didn't find much available with 36VDC input. Nor for
> modified sine wave inverters either. For me (maybe you too?) it seems there
> might be some hope of finding a 36 VDC UPS system on eBay for a reasonable
> price, if a modified sine wave is OK. These are typically described as
> suitable for computers, telecomm, etc. Not sure what your needs are
> regarding waveform.
>
> Any guidelines on what applications really need a true sine wave?
> Particularly the motor I posted about ("How to drive my shredder")?
Personally I try not to waste "true sine waves" on machinery.
Induction motors usually run acceptably well on a "modified sine"
inverter, and these are available quite cheaply - don't know about 36V
though.
Maybe replace the motor with an Etek?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps the easier solution is to change voltages on your EV's. How hard
would it be to run them all on 48V?
From: "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:18:09 -0500
Several weeks ago I mentioned that I wanted to build a solar charging shed
for my Elec-Trak I-5. As is so often the case in these projects, it has
taken on a life of it's own.
My wife and I are in the process of designing/building a new house. This
house, when completed will be grid attached, but will have a substantial
solar/wind power system to provide for 90+ % of it's energy needs.
Since all of my electric vehicles are 36v, (ET-12M ET I-5, Golf cart) I had
thought about making the whole system 36v. That way, in a pinch, the
energy stored in the ET's and or the Golf Cart could be used for backup
house power. By my calculations, a fully charged Elec-Trak with good
batteries could provide 100% of my homes energy for more than a day. That
is a very NICE backup indeed.
I can find 36v wind turbines to add to the system easily. Solar panels can
be wired 3 in series for a 36v nominal array, and I can find 36v charge
controllers easily enough on the internet. My problem is finding a 36v 60
hz true-sine inverter of sufficient power.
I can find 36v 50hz models all day long. They are common down under, but a
60 hz version I can't seem to find. Ideally I want to provide my house
with 220 60 hz power. For a 12, 24, or 48v system, that is typically done
by putting two 110v 60 hz systems in series.
Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110 sine
wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters, OR know of a
product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave into 220 60 hz?
Thanks in Advance.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:34 AM
Subject: Conversions
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
>
>
> > what a pitty being on this side off the pond, i now about 80 like new
> > STM5-140MR sitting and nobody to use them....because here in France
there
> is
> > no way to put a conversion on the road, law is law :^(
> >
> > Philippe
>
> Wow, I thought there, it was fairly progressive, probably worried about
Joe
> six-pack driving something unsafe, but they could just as well pass an
> inspection though. I wonder if there are other places where they don't
allow
> conversions. I guess that could inadvertently happen here if there were a
> lot of factory EV's running around and conversions got legislated out.
That
> would certainly *ruin* my day if I couldn't convert (read afford) an EV.
> Mark
>
> Hi All;
Yeah, same in Portugal, too. We had a Portugese guy on the List years
ago. I suggested that he convert a small car. He sed the same thing, no
homebuilds, conversions etc. Gees! Same in most of the Continent? Germany,
Poland Czech Republic, Russia, any Listers from Russia here? Scarry thought,
could it happen here? Doubt it or Washington would be trashed and burned by
the Gas Hotrod fraturnity if laws were enacted ?!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you know who the manufacturer of the NiCads are, you should probably
check with them directly. It is unlikely that you will be able to recycle
them locally. It is very likely that it will cost you some amount of money
to recycle them.
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Recycle Ni-Cads
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:07:46 -0500
Hi, I was told to check about how hard it is to recycle ni-cads before I
buy them. I couldn't find anyone around here, does anyone know of a
recycling center near Roanoke, VA? Do I have to pay or do they pay me
something for recycling ni-cads?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:00 AM
Subject: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
> I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission.
> I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on
> the motor.
Do you have a dial indicator? Are we talking up and down or side to side to
side , both are bad , . ? is the a taper lock hub? when your reading the
dial indicator being .005 out will show up a .01 movement on it , . How did
you make the hub? I have seen where putting a new key in throw things out
of wack a little .
How bad would this be to the motor or transmission?
The hub in my porsche is the worst one I;ve done and it was out .007 , there
was no noticable vibration till I went to 240v . I don't know how you make
your hub.
Does
> the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a
> little bit at low speeds? I was trying to save money by doing this, but
> probably have spent more with my time. But it was fun to try once. It
> will have been even funner if it works. Any suggestions.
>
On my Mazda I tryed to get it as close as posable , came off the motor at
( I use the motor to trun the hub ) at .oo5 and using a file ended up with
.001 , at that point things seemed to change just from taking it apart and
putting it together ( + or - .0005) Have you tried putting it together
different ways , if both fly wheel and hub are a little off than both
erriers can cancel. How are you going to line up your tranny with the
motor( the easy part)?
No rain will affect it, but it might not get real
> good cooling.
its going to need both , a fan and heat sink , and dry place.
If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air
> flow VW designed for the ICE,
water is a real problem , the cooling can be done with a fan ,
and would have less power loss, with
> shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I
> would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
>
> Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been
> told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a
> pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away
> with this charger, but it just be a little slower? Any ideas.
what is your pack voltage , and what kind of batteries , /
Now if you had been taking video of your conversion and send me a little (
with permision to copy/use ) I would have sent you my video on converting
your gas car to electric for Free. If you havn't made the plate , you might
want to think about it .
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
> I am a little clueless with some of these things, so I would appreciate
> any help.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian Staffanson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Has anyone got prices for these 100Ah Li-Poly cells?
>
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery03.html#2
>
> 100Ah 3C(rated), 5C Continuous, 8C Max, 2.75kg (6 lbs)
>
> L8r
> Ryan
Didn't our friends at ProEV mention $1.40/wh, no matter which cell you're
pricing?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch,
That is mucho costo.
Hmm, I wonder. What would happen if I put three 12v inverters in
series? On paper that should give me three 110v true sine wave circuits
out. Stack two of them to give me 220 where needed and keep the third
for a second power box with 110 only loads.
It would be costly, but I could get away with much smaller units, so the
cost might be similar.
I'm sure this won't work, but could someone tell me why this won't work?
James
Raymond Knight wrote:
Just got off the phone with Dimensions, they do make 36volt input 60hz
inverters. They have two models a 3200watt 110/220 and a 5800watt 110/220
with a 30amp circuit. They are both Quasi-sine wave, which is really just a
high quality modified sine wave. So any equipment with SCR's won't like
them. Dimensions is like the leader in EMS and industrial duty inverters.
(my customers use them 24/7 to run shops out of their vans) I can get you
some more details if you like. They both weigh over 80 pounds so shipping is
going to cost $$$. The inverters themselves list at $4070.00 and $5160.00US.
I can get you a discount off that price, so just use that to put you in the
ballpark.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A simply way to check this, is to take a marker on a holder and come up to
the surface of the flywheel while it is spinning. If you have skipping
patterns, than the face is uneven.
Also check the flywheel outside edge, at times a flywheel is only machine on
the face, and the edge and back is left rough, where you will see a little
wobble of these areas, but not the face.
There may be drill holes in the back of the flywheel which was done to
balance the flywheel.
If the face is in line and if there is no vibration, did I would not worry
about it.
You could have the balance check at a motor shop which also does components
balancing.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:00 PM
Subject: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
> I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission.
> I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on
> the motor. How bad would this be to the motor or transmission? Does
> the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a
> little bit at low speeds? I was trying to save money by doing this, but
> probably have spent more with my time. But it was fun to try once. It
> will have been even funner if it works. Any suggestions.
>
> I am also wondering where the best place to put my controller. I have a
> curtis 1231. I am placing my batteries under the rear seat, 10 - 12 of
> them, and the motor will be just behind them, in the very back of the
> car, (it is a 1974 VW Beetle). Would it be better closer to the
> batteries or the motor? If it is closer to the batteries, it will be
> out of the elements. No rain will affect it, but it might not get real
> good cooling. If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air
> flow VW designed for the ICE, and would have less power loss, with
> shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I
> would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
>
> Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been
> told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a
> pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away
> with this charger, but it just be a little slower? Any ideas.
> I am a little clueless with some of these things, so I would appreciate
> any help.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian Staffanson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These are links that I've gathered to mainly PDFs about Saft Ni-cads... some
maybe out of date. If so, I have downloaded copies that I will forward.
http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/SAFT_Tech_manual.pdf or
http://www.100megsfree.com/davidbr13/evtechpapers/stmuk.pdf (same document)
and http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/SAFT_Stm5-100mre.ChargeMode.pdf for more
technical charging info.
Environmental info: http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-MS_Aviation/PDF/q-a.pdf
EU ban:
http://www.eurobat.org/Eurobat/docs/PressRoom/Rapporteur%20March%202002.pdf
The pre-2000 failures: http://www.danskelbilkomite.dk/report.pdf
Data sheet: http://www.saft.fr/130-Catalogue/PDF/data_STM_en.pdf
Safety sheet: http://www.saft.co.uk/130-Catalogue/PDF/msds_ibg_bdx_en.pdf
Cycle performance: http://www2.ald.net/~roden/ev/images/saft_cyc.jpg (thanks
David!)
Happy reading!
Matt
> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:07:11 -0700
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Ni-Cad charging
>
> At 02:14 PM 11/16/2004, you wrote:
>> I was told that STM5-180's had to be charged at a 14A rate per the manual.
>> Why would it matter whether I charge at the recommended 14A for 13 hours
>> or 7A for 26 hours or 28A for 7.5 hours?
>
> You need to read the manual yourself.
>
> You can bulk charge at a wide range of current. I recall there is
> some small adjustment you should make to the "trigger" voltage that demarks
> the switch over point to the overcharge portion of the charge cycle.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, for the golf cart, no big deal. I *THINK* the controller in it
would handle it fairly easily, so I would just need another charger (not
once the solar system is built, but until then)
I'm not at ALL sure about the elec-traks.
Since they use contact controllers, my gut says that I could do that,
but I'm not sure if that would run the deck motors too "rich" or not.
I bet it would mow like hell! I know I'd have to replace the
headlights and the horn.
Hmmm... You know that does kinda sound doable.... I could build a
front (or rear) battery box so the ET could hold an extra pair of 6v
batteries.
Something doesn't feel right tho, I'm sure I'd burn something up on the
ET's.
James
damon henry wrote:
Perhaps the easier solution is to change voltages on your EV's. How
hard would it be to run them all on 48V?
From: "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:18:09 -0500
Several weeks ago I mentioned that I wanted to build a solar charging
shed for my Elec-Trak I-5. As is so often the case in these
projects, it has taken on a life of it's own.
My wife and I are in the process of designing/building a new house.
This house, when completed will be grid attached, but will have a
substantial solar/wind power system to provide for 90+ % of it's
energy needs.
Since all of my electric vehicles are 36v, (ET-12M ET I-5, Golf cart)
I had thought about making the whole system 36v. That way, in a
pinch, the energy stored in the ET's and or the Golf Cart could be
used for backup house power. By my calculations, a fully charged
Elec-Trak with good batteries could provide 100% of my homes energy
for more than a day. That is a very NICE backup indeed.
I can find 36v wind turbines to add to the system easily. Solar
panels can be wired 3 in series for a 36v nominal array, and I can
find 36v charge controllers easily enough on the internet. My
problem is finding a 36v 60 hz true-sine inverter of sufficient power.
I can find 36v 50hz models all day long. They are common down under,
but a 60 hz version I can't seem to find. Ideally I want to provide
my house with 220 60 hz power. For a 12, 24, or 48v system, that is
typically done by putting two 110v 60 hz systems in series.
Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110
sine wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters, OR
know of a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave
into 220 60 hz?
Thanks in Advance.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:40:33 -0500, James F. Jarrett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ouch,
>
> That is mucho costo.
>
> Hmm, I wonder. What would happen if I put three 12v inverters in
> series? On paper that should give me three 110v true sine wave circuits
> out. Stack two of them to give me 220 where needed and keep the third
> for a second power box with 110 only loads.
>
> It would be costly, but I could get away with much smaller units, so the
> cost might be similar.
>
> I'm sure this won't work, but could someone tell me why this won't work?
>
No, you can't simply put the inverter inputs in series. One or more
will go bang. You can't "stack" the outputs unless they are a type
which allows this either. (it's a bit like putting two Curtis's in
parallel to get an 800A controller - more trouble than its worth!)
You could connect one 12V inverter to each battery, but then you'll
imbalance your batteries.
I think there would be easier and cheaper ways to go about it. 1) use
a big 36-110V inverter and an autotransformer to boost it to 220. 2)
change your EVs to 48V (it'd be a good excuse) and buy the right
inverter. 3) use the 36-220/50Hz inverter you mentioned.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James,
I have one of those rotary inverters that Lee mentioned. I got mine
from pacific industrial just a couple of months ago.
36V -> 110V, 900W (9A)
here is an older auction of one at ebay, I bought mine directly from
them and got it a bit cheaper
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3834619537
they may still have some, I'd try calling them.
It seems it can't provide enough starting power for even modest induction
AC motors (I tried a box fan and the fan would not spin up to speed, tried
my
circular saw with a 3/4hp motor and the saw motor wouldn't move at all)
However it works great for all the universal motors I have in most shop
tools, including a 9A chain saw and a 12A leaf blower (not a full speed)
The only other thing I intended to run was the refrigerator in
case of a power outage, but haven yet tried that.
I don't think you could hook two of them up in series to get 220V as
they probably need to be synchronized.
Also I'd guess that the 900W are not enough. Most 220V
appliances that I can think of require way more than most affordable
inverters can provide and, they may also require the 110V to ground tab
ability.
I am thinking a possible approach might be to match a golf cart or
Elec-trak drive motor to a ICE generator. Either drop the ICE generator
combustion motor or keep it for backup and use the 36V motor to drive
the generator. Would need to match the speed.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James F. Jarrett
> Sent: Mittwoch, 17. November 2004 10:47
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
>
>
> Well, for the golf cart, no big deal. I *THINK* the controller in it
> would handle it fairly easily, so I would just need another
> charger (not
> once the solar system is built, but until then)
>
> I'm not at ALL sure about the elec-traks.
>
> Since they use contact controllers, my gut says that I could do that,
> but I'm not sure if that would run the deck motors too "rich" or not.
>
> I bet it would mow like hell! I know I'd have to replace the
> headlights and the horn.
>
> Hmmm... You know that does kinda sound doable.... I could build a
> front (or rear) battery box so the ET could hold an extra pair of 6v
> batteries.
>
> Something doesn't feel right tho, I'm sure I'd burn something
> up on the
> ET's.
>
> James
>
> damon henry wrote:
>
> > Perhaps the easier solution is to change voltages on your
> EV's. How
> > hard would it be to run them all on 48V?
> >
> >> From: "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
> >> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:18:09 -0500
> >>
> >> Several weeks ago I mentioned that I wanted to build a
> solar charging
> >> shed for my Elec-Trak I-5. As is so often the case in these
> >> projects, it has taken on a life of it's own.
> >>
> >> My wife and I are in the process of designing/building a
> new house.
> >> This house, when completed will be grid attached, but will have a
> >> substantial solar/wind power system to provide for 90+ % of it's
> >> energy needs.
> >>
> >> Since all of my electric vehicles are 36v, (ET-12M ET I-5,
> Golf cart)
> >> I had thought about making the whole system 36v. That way, in a
> >> pinch, the energy stored in the ET's and or the Golf Cart could be
> >> used for backup house power. By my calculations, a fully charged
> >> Elec-Trak with good batteries could provide 100% of my
> homes energy
> >> for more than a day. That is a very NICE backup indeed.
> >>
> >> I can find 36v wind turbines to add to the system easily. Solar
> >> panels can be wired 3 in series for a 36v nominal array, and I can
> >> find 36v charge controllers easily enough on the internet. My
> >> problem is finding a 36v 60 hz true-sine inverter of
> sufficient power.
> >>
> >> I can find 36v 50hz models all day long. They are common
> down under,
> >> but a 60 hz version I can't seem to find. Ideally I want
> to provide
> >> my house with 220 60 hz power. For a 12, 24, or 48v
> system, that is
> >> typically done by putting two 110v 60 hz systems in series.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110
> >> sine wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave
> inverters, OR
> >> know of a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave
> >> into 220 60 hz?
> >>
> >> Thanks in Advance.
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:28:25 -0800, Roger Stockton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > richard ball [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > what is the
> > > metric equivalent of #4 welding cable and how is this
> > > different to AWG 2? the current draw on the etek is 300+
> > > Amps max what cable and lugs does everyone think I should use
> >
> > Here is a handy table of AWG vs diameter and crossection in mm and mm^2:
> >
> > <http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html>
> >
> > Here is a table of ampacity for copper cable:
> >
> > <http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_3/2.html>
> >
> > Either #4 or #2 will work fine since your Etec can't take 300A+ for very
> > long at all before it fries, and your controller probably can't supply
> > it for very long either. #4 is pretty typical in golf carts and NEVs
> > with peak currents in the same 300-400A ballpark. If your vehicle can
> > afford the additional weight of the #2, it would be a nice option.
>
> Agreed. I tried a Lynch motor recently - due to the small 6mm
> terminals, the only suitable lugs I could find were for 16mm^2 cable
> (close to AWG #5), so that's what I used. There was only a couple of
> feet of cable so even though it got a bit warm, there wasn't much
> power lost. The rest of the car is wired with 35mm^2 cable, which is
> a lot heavier.
Yes. This is how you normally size wire for an EV. Most wire tables are
based on "rules of thumb" that don't apply to an EV. For instance, they
assume continuous duty; EVs are never on continuously.
Size your EV wiring based on wire heating, and voltage drop. The wire is
basically a resistor, so Ohm's law applies. Volts = Amps x Ohms. Watts =
Volt x Amps.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In Fact McDonalds recently was *forced* by public PR to do just that - and
started produce veggy
"hamburger" they didn't want to produce.
I can get a veggy burger almost anywhere except McDonalds. I go to Burger
King, Mels, lots of independents etc not Mc Donalds. They must have gotten
the message. What makes cars different? Lawrence Rhodes...I do like Mc
Donalds frys........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for all the advice
i ordered some 35mm2 welding cable today which is
probably over kill but since it was double insulated
with a neoprene outer and came through work at a cost
of £2.60 /m seemed like the best idea
incidentally when i measured the cable i had been
using it was 22mm2 it worked ok but every drop of
power helps and it seems pointless to waste it
heating up cable
Any of you exprts care to advise on prefered lug
choice material/fixing etc ?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:28:25 -0800, Roger Stockton
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > richard ball
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > > what is the
> > > > metric equivalent of #4 welding cable and how
> is this
> > > > different to AWG 2? the current draw on the
> etek is 300+
> > > > Amps max what cable and lugs does everyone
> think I should use
> > >
> > > Here is a handy table of AWG vs diameter and
> crossection in mm and mm^2:
> > >
> > > <http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html>
> > >
> > > Here is a table of ampacity for copper cable:
> > >
> > >
>
<http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_3/2.html>
> > >
> > > Either #4 or #2 will work fine since your Etec
> can't take 300A+ for very
> > > long at all before it fries, and your controller
> probably can't supply
> > > it for very long either. #4 is pretty typical
> in golf carts and NEVs
> > > with peak currents in the same 300-400A
> ballpark. If your vehicle can
> > > afford the additional weight of the #2, it would
> be a nice option.
> >
> > Agreed. I tried a Lynch motor recently - due to
> the small 6mm
> > terminals, the only suitable lugs I could find
> were for 16mm^2 cable
> > (close to AWG #5), so that's what I used. There
> was only a couple of
> > feet of cable so even though it got a bit warm,
> there wasn't much
> > power lost. The rest of the car is wired with
> 35mm^2 cable, which is
> > a lot heavier.
>
> Yes. This is how you normally size wire for an EV.
> Most wire tables are
> based on "rules of thumb" that don't apply to an EV.
> For instance, they
> assume continuous duty; EVs are never on
> continuously.
>
> Size your EV wiring based on wire heating, and
> voltage drop. The wire is
> basically a resistor, so Ohm's law applies. Volts =
> Amps x Ohms. Watts =
> Volt x Amps.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
=====
Regards
Richard
___________________________________________________________
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
H2 prices will always be a multiple of the cost of the method of
manufacture. I pay about $1.78 now for CNG. It takes double the CNG to
make H2. That is about right. However making more won't bring the price
down. The ratio stays the same. You need cheaper energy to make H2
practical. Then why bother. You could just use the energy directly in a
battery or maybe the Super Electric Highway. (Electricity in the road)
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
I don't know what the current price of H2 fuel is, but
$4 sounds like it is about right. It doesn't have much
to do with the 'inefficiency' of steam reformation
though. It is, i suspect, mostly a function of the low
volumes of production and distribution.
~fortunat
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
$4 per gallon for H2 derived from Natural Gas due to
inefficiencies from Air
Products H2 supplier. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
> What is the cost of the Hydrogen per gallon of gas
equlivant? Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
>
>
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > That is about right...150 to 200 miles depending
on
> > who is driving. As you noted that is a sizeable
> > vehicle (and heavy).
> > As for being ~90 miles from Sacramento, there
are
> > atleast a couple fueling stations in the bay
area
> > where the car can refuel on the way home (i
believe
> > Chevron just opened a new one in Oakland).
> >
> > Oh yeah, no 'anti-static suit' required (don't
believe
> > everything you read on the EVDL). Takes just a
couple
> > minutes to re-fuel, easy enough for you or I to
do it.
> >
> >
> > ~Fortunat
> >
> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> How much range Fortunat? It was 90 miles from
> >> Sacramento. The plates were
> >> Michigan plates. It had the funny little
Japanese
> >> mirrors up front on the
> >> fenders. I'm assuming a 150 to 200 mile range.
> >> Lawrence Rhodes......
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:55 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
> >>
> >>
> >> > Lawrence,
> >> >
> >> > was it greenish ?
> >> > I assume when you say dealer plates, you mean
> >> > M-plates, right ?
> >> > I think that is one of ours (not really ours,
but
> >> we
> >> > did all the hard work :)). There are four of
these
> >> X
> >> > trail vehicles that live at the California
Fuel
> >> Cell
> >> > Partnership in Sacramento. I assume this is
one of
> >> > them.
> >> >
> >> > I am glad to hear it is getting some use.
> >> >
> >> > ~fortunat
> >> >
> >> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I was driving across the Bay Bridge
Wednesday
> >> night
> >> >> and fell in line behind
> >> >> a Nissan FCV. The name was X-Trail. It was
big.
> >> >> Michigan dealer plates.
> >> >> Typical Japanese setup as far as the
mirrors. A
> >> >> real concept car. God
> >> >> knows what they were doing driving it across
> >> >> country. Lawrence
> >> >> Rhodes.......
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________
> >> > Do you Yahoo!?
> >> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> >> > www.yahoo.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> > www.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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--- End Message ---
