EV Digest 3919
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Precharge Resistor
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Contactor Coil Diode
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High Capacity Li-Polymer Cells
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) [Re: Precharge Resistor]
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) [Re: Precharge Resistor]
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Th!nks on CBS
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: [Re: Precharge Resistor]
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Detecting Hot Connections via Voltage
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Precharge Resistor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Contactor Coil Diode
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [Re: Precharge Resistor]
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Contactor Coil Diode
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 36V to 48V E-Trac
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Conversions
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Do you have this bulb in your EV dash? If so, are you concerned about
having the full pack voltage in the passenger compartment? What bulb
would you recommend for a Curtis 1231C controller?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An alternative I like is to use a light bulb as the precharge
resistor.
> When cold, their resistance is very low, so they precharge faster.
if
> the controller fails to precharge, the light bulb lights up as an
> indicator. Its resistance also goes up dramatically, so it
self-limits
> the current.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> ==============
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What purpose does the diode on the Contactor Coil serve? Can I get by
without one if I'm using the contactor to switch my PTC heater cores?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> 1. The green wire ground in the input cable and the output cable
> were both tied to chassis ground. This is the safety ground.
> It grounds the chassis to the safety ground at the receptacle
> to make sure that the chassis is very close to ground potential
> and will cause the breaker to open if a short to chassis occurs
> in the battery pack or feed wiring.
Good. One precaution that some people may not think of. This ground wire
needs to be of a large enough size, and connected well enough so that if
a short does occur, the breaker will trip rather than the ground wire
just burn open. If the ground wire opens, then whatever caused the short
will now be making the case of the charger/motor/whatever electrically
LIVE (and you dead)!
> 2. Why would you want to disconnect the input of the charger when
> not connected to AC? The negative battery rail is connected to
> the negative terminal of a diode bridge with the AC inputs
> connected to the AC line coming in.
What is the max reverse current of the diodes in your bridge rectifier?
A hot reverse leakage spec of 5ma or more is not uncommon. This is
enough current to present a serious shock hazard if you happen to touch
the AC cord's blade connectors when the charger is unplugged.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
We are using the 70 amp-hr version in the Electric Imp. There is information
on these batteries on our website, www.ProEV.com. Go to Electric Imp
Project, Tech specs, Battery Pack.
For prices, you can contact Victor at www.metricmind.com. He has started
selling Kokam batteries.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 7:36 PM
Subject: High Capacity Li-Polymer Cells
Has anyone got prices for these 100Ah Li-Poly cells?
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery03.html#2
100Ah 3C(rated), 5C Continuous, 8C Max, 2.75kg (6 lbs)
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James F. Jarrett wrote:
> What would happen if I put three 12v inverters in series?
No, it won't work. There is no way to know if the 3 inverters will
operate in phase. As soon as you paralllel their AC outputs, you will
blow a fuse.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless he changed it, no he doesn't have it in the dash. However, even if
he did why would he be concerned. Are you concerned about have " full pack
voltage" on your ceiling, in your walls, on your kitchen countertops, or
your nightstand, or even in your hands?
I understand wanting to be safe, but why are we all so insanely worried
about being shocked by our EV's, when we use the same levels of
electricity in our daily lives without even giving it a second thought.
--
Stay Charged! (both you, and your car)
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Maston
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 11:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Precharge Resistor
Lee,
Do you have this bulb in your EV dash? If so, are you concerned about
having the full pack voltage in the passenger compartment? What bulb
would you recommend for a Curtis 1231C controller?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An alternative I like is to use a light bulb as the precharge
resistor.
> When cold, their resistance is very low, so they precharge faster.
if
> the controller fails to precharge, the light bulb lights up as an
indicator. Its resistance also goes up dramatically, so it
self-limits
> the current.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
==============
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the books on conversion that I have read have recommended keeping
the full battery pack voltage out of the passenger compartment. Curtis
also recommends this in their controller manual. I'm not real concerned
about it in my house, but that's AC - I don't know if the effects of DC
would be worse or not. I am not going to crash my house into another
vehicle or object, possibly compromising the wiring (OK, I don't PLAN to
do this in my EV, either. :-)) Also, the materials of my house are not
conductive like the body of my car is.
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/17/04 9:00:03 AM >>>
Unless he changed it, no he doesn't have it in the dash. However, even
if
he did why would he be concerned. Are you concerned about have " full
pack
voltage" on your ceiling, in your walls, on your kitchen countertops,
or
your nightstand, or even in your hands?
I understand wanting to be safe, but why are we all so insanely
worried
about being shocked by our EV's, when we use the same levels of
electricity in our daily lives without even giving it a second
thought.
--
Stay Charged! (both you, and your car)
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>It does seem hypocritical to me that government will legislate a
>particular technology and then not support it by purchasing it.
>Imagine if Cah-lee-forn-nya put out a bid for making all their fleet
>vehicles EV (or zero emissions, or ULEV, or hybrid...). Imagine being
>able to deduct twice the cost/mile for using an EV for your business,
>or getting a more aggressive depreciation schedule. State governments
>seem to like to talk, but not walk the talk.
In a sense this is what Rick Ruvolo was trying to do in the
City of San Francisco fleet by buying large quantities of
CNG vehicles, but then F*&d killed that program not long after
killing the Th!nk City EV. That's why his story was told alongside
our Th!nk EV story in the CBS program. He was shafted too...
>I also don't think gov't should legislate particular solutions, but
>rather results. For instance, saying your fleet pollution average
>needs to be xx grams/mile by year 20XX. For instance, realistically,
>is it better to have most all cars be hybrid in 10 years (1/2 the gas
>and 1/10 the pollution), or have 2% zero emissions? Right or wrong,
>which path is far more likely to succeed? BTW, hybrids would be an
>excellent stepping stone towards EVs.
Well right now we don't know which path is more likely to succeed
because a 100% gas-powered "hybrid" is your only option.
I do recommend the CBS coverage - IMHO they did a great job.
Please send feedback to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
They need to know we're out there and we care.
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging, 2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405 USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
ex-Th!nk City EV driver
President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
***************************************************************
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** CD-ROM versions of Ted Ross and Stiller Handbook **
** Books by Powell, Stone, Ross, Gerou & Lusk, Stiller, etc. **
** Dover miniature & full-size orchestral scores in stock **
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having many request about this batteries so this is a general answer:
This is all information i have on the pack there is 4 or 5 available.
18 blocs (6V- 140Ah - NiCd) which are in two cases.
- One small case with electrical connections (plated connectors, fuse,
relay, temperature
sensor) water connection (water level) and fans.
6 blocs STM 5-140 from SAFT- So a voltage of 36V and 140Ah
Case dimensions: length: 360mm , width: 940mm, Height: 280mm
- One big case with electrical connections (plated connectors, fuse, relay,
temperature
sensor), water connection (water level) and fans.
12 blocs STM-140 from SAFT - So a voltage of 72V and 140Ah
Case dimensions: length: 785mm (+70mm for the fans) - Width: 890mm - Heigth:
280mm
Each bloc dimensions: length: 244mm - Width: 153mm - Heigth: 260mm
actual Cycle number used: 10 to 20 cycles - Time life: 1500 cycles at
80%DOD -
Weigth: 17kg
total weight for one pack is 324kgs (715 pound)
If i remember correctly last price was about 4000 euros for one pack,
shipment quote about 1000 euros (quote for 2 pack) but you may look about
USA overseas transport company price.
for other question ONLY ABOUT PURCHASE contact directly the seller
www.ALEL.biz
thanks for your understanding.
Philippe
over the pond.
-----Original Message-----
From: Philippe Borges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
what a pitty being on this side off the pond, i now about 80 like new
STM5-140MR sitting and nobody to use them....because here in France there is
no way to put a conversion on the road, law is law :^(
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean the electrons are not
after you! :)
It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison:
* EV voltage can be higher than a home's
* 2000 amps vs. 20 amps
* High currents can melt things easier in an EV
* Vibration and torque twists tend to chafe wires
* House isn't conductive, car body is
* House floor is less conductive than puddle driver may stand in
* Car operated in wet conditions
* House safety stuff is cheap and mandated, opposite of EV
* House wiring rarely touched after install, EV needs batteries
regularly, and lead creeps requiring retightening
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I understand wanting to be safe, but why are we all so insanely
> worried
> about being shocked by our EV's, when we use the same levels of
> electricity in our daily lives without even giving it a second
> thought.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Suppose you used the 2nd set of terminals on a battery to measure the
voltage of each battery. It seems you could use this hardware to also
measure voltage drop across each cable segment to look for failing
connections. Would the voltage drop be enough to be practically
measurable?
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But what if I *DONT* parallel their outputs? What if I connect the
output of each inverter to a separate breaker box and connect just
whatever loads to that box that I need.
There are several 12v inverters (and 24, and 48) that are made to be
"stacked" So if I use only those type, I could stack two of them into, a
single breaker box right?
Or wrong?
Lee Hart wrote:
James F. Jarrett wrote:
What would happen if I put three 12v inverters in series?
No, it won't work. There is no way to know if the 3 inverters will
operate in phase. As soon as you paralllel their AC outputs, you will
blow a fuse.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Maston wrote:
> Lee,
> Do you have this bulb in your EV dash? If so, are you concerned about
> having the full pack voltage in the passenger compartment? What bulb
> would you recommend for a Curtis 1231C controller?
I have a 132v pack. My precharge "resistor" is a 130v 75w light bulb,
screwed into an ordinary surface-mount lamp socket. It is mounted under
the hood, next to the Curtis 1231C controller, on the electrical panel
with all the high-voltage wiring.
The bulb is actually a "black light" bulb. When it lights, it only glows
a purple color. I first used an ordinary light bulb, but the "flash"
under the hood in the electrical panel as it precharged was too
unnerving! :-)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Maston wrote:
> What purpose does the diode on the Contactor Coil serve? Can I get by
> without one if I'm using the contactor to switch my PTC heater cores?
The diode across the coil of any DC relay or contactor is put there to
"catch" the inductive kick produced when you de-energize the coil.
Without this diode, the voltage shoots up to around 10x the coil voltage
for an extremely brief time (like 120v across a 12v coil for less than 1
millisecond). This high voltage pulse will kill transistors or cause
switch contacts to arc.
The diode clamps the coil voltage to ~1v. Now when you turn off the
coil, the 12v coil only has ~1v across it, but for a much longer time
(like over 10 milliseconds).
The diode helps whatever is switching the coil -- but it makes the relay
or contactor dropout much slower, which is much harder on its contacts.
So, it's the old "trade-off" game again. Which are you trying to
protect; the contactor's contacts or its coil driver?
There are other circuits -- a diode is just the cheapest solution.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Markus L wrote:
> I have one of those rotary inverters that Lee mentioned. I got mine
> from pacific industrial just a couple of months ago.
> 36V -> 110V, 900W (9A)
Yes; that's the very same one I have.
> It seems it can't provide enough starting power for even modest
> induction AC motors...
The problem is that this rotary inverter has an "automatic start"
circuit that senses the load, and only starts if the load is within
range. It sees a big stalled induction motor as a dead short, and so
won't start it. But once running (started with some smaller load), it
will then start an induction motor.
For example, my furnace has a 1/3hp blower motor, a 1/15hp combustion
air motor, and a little 40va control transformer. When the thermostat
calls for heat, the furnace starts the 1/15hp motor first, then the
1/3hp motor. This motor generator has no trouble with that load, because
it comes on in steps.
> I don't think you could hook two of them up in series to get 220V
> as they probably need to be synchronized.
Right; that wouldn't work.
But you *could* hook them in parallel. Motor-generators will
automatically synchronize to the same frequency and share the load if
connected in parallel (unless their internal control circuits defeat
it).
Or, you can get a 120/240vac isolation transformer, and hook a
motor-generator to each half of the transformer. This makes them work in
series, but makes them *think* they are in parallel. When done this way,
the transformer can be surprisingly small; only 10-20% of the total
load.
> I am thinking a possible approach might be to match a golf cart
> or Elec-trak drive motor to a ICE generator.
This works for a shunt or PM motor, but not with a series motor (like a
golf cart motor)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> James F. Jarrett wrote:
> > What would happen if I put three 12v inverters in series?
>
> No, it won't work. There is no way to know if the 3 inverters
> will operate in phase. As soon as you paralllel their AC
> outputs, you will blow a fuse.
I agree that connecting the outputs of 3 12VDC->120VAC inverters in
series won't work, but see no reason why the outputs of 3 12VDC->240VAC
or 12VDC->120VAC inverters can't be connected in *parallel*.
As I understand it, most (all?) inverters are designed to support
grid-connected installations and synchronise themselves to the external
AC voltage impressed on their output prior to outputing any power. In
this case, all that should be required is to ensure that one inverter
turns on before the others so that there is always an external AC
reference for the others to synchronise to.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been told
that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a pack of
144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away with this
charger, but it just be a little slower?
No, you cannot use this charger. Even for a 120V pack, it requires a
booster unit, and is not rated up to 144V. If you try to run it as is,
your pack will never get fully charged. When the pack hits full charge for
108V (or whatever the charger is programmed for), the charger will say,
"Ok, I'm done!" and drop down to a tiny finish current level.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:59:38 -0500, "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm quite interested in this as well. I haven't determined yet what kind of
>waveform the motor on my shredder wants to see, but I suspect it wants a
>real sine wave. I didn't find much available with 36VDC input. Nor for
>modified sine wave inverters either. For me (maybe you too?) it seems there
>might be some hope of finding a 36 VDC UPS system on eBay for a reasonable
>price, if a modified sine wave is OK. These are typically described as
>suitable for computers, telecomm, etc. Not sure what your needs are
>regarding waveform.
>
>Any guidelines on what applications really need a true sine wave?
>Particularly the motor I posted about ("How to drive my shredder")?
I've been using inverters since the mid 80s when I built a whole office
UPS using a large Tripp-Lite square wave (not pseudo sine) inverter.
Despite popular rumors to the contrary, everything ran just fine - PCs, a
router, HP laserprinter, etc. The only thing that did not work was the
office microwave. It would run but not heat because it relied on the peak
voltage not present in a square wave. Even the stereo ran, though it had
a low level buzz.
Electric motors got a little warmer that normal because of the high
harmonic content of the square wave.
Currently my largest inverter is the 3kw one in my MH. With one
exception, everything that I've tried has run fine. The microwave oven
runs fine, though it makes a little less heat. Motors do not overheat,
though they do emit a little more buzz. Computers, printers, test
equipment - they all work properly.
The one exception is the class of Ni-cad and NiMH battery chargers that
are transformerless. These typically use a capacitor in series with the
line to regulate the current. Cordless drill chargers are the largest
type in the class. Some digicam battery chargers too. My Canon charger
works fine while my Nikon one just sits there.
Computers are actually among the MOST tolerant of crappy power. I first
became aware of that after buying an early small UPS which output 145
volts DC. I smoked a desk fan learning that one. The first thing that
happens to the incoming power inside most PC power supplies is it is
rectified to DC so the waveform doesn't matter.
For a household UPS, my only concern would be for A/V equipment and then
only because of the buzz the modified square wave inverter would produce.
My approach would be to buy a large modified square wave inverter for the
house and a small sine wave one for the A/V equipment and battery chargers
that require a sine wave.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to advocate unsafe practices. I'm just
trying to "decrease the level of electrical paranoia".
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Dymaxion
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:02 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Re: Precharge Resistor]
>
>
> Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean the electrons are not after
> you!
> :)
>
> It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison:
>
> * EV voltage can be higher than a home's
Can be, but seldom is. Your home is a MINIMUM of 162 volts peak. Besides,
which hurts more, an aluminum bat or a wooden bat. ;-)
> * 2000 amps vs. 20 amps
Either of which is way more than enough to kill you.
> * High currents can melt things easier in an EV
Why would high currents melt things easier in an EV? Oh wait I see, an EV
has higher current available(not true for most EV's), so is more apt to
melt things. Which I would rather have, I've already lost one house to a
fire (electrical, believe it or not)
> * Vibration and torque twists tend to chafe wires
This is the result of a serious installation mistake and needs to be fixed.
> * House isn't conductive, car body is
Which makes the EV "SAFER". Electrons take the path of least resistance,
through the car instead of through me.
> * House floor is less conductive than puddle driver may stand in
But, the EV's pack isn't referenced to earth. So it doesn't matter.
> * Car operated in wet conditions
see above
> * House safety stuff is cheap and mandated, opposite of EV
Such as? (My house fire was caused by a faulty breaker)
> * House wiring rarely touched after install, EV needs batteries
> regularly, and lead creeps requiring retightening
True, be careful!
But the original post asked Lee if he was worried about having a light
bulb connected to pack voltage in his passenger compartment. My point was
simply, why would he be worried? When you change a light bulb at home do
you unplug the lamp or throw the breaker first. How many times have you
screwed in a new light bulb and it lit. "Oops, I guess I should've turned
that off first".
Don't get me wrong, I like safety precautions and think everyone should be
safe.
But, (this part is becoming hard to express properly)
some people (myself included) will act overly-cautious about some
perceived danger and then act underly-cautious about the same danger when
its unperceived. ( did that make sense?)
For example some people will walk egg-footed around twelve-twelve volters
connected in series - 144v, and try to avoid getting near any exposed
terminals. However, hand them an extension cord that is plugged in (115vac
rms = 162.5vac peak) and ask them to plug in the christmas tree(whatever)
and they think nothing of it.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart mentioned:
> The diode helps whatever is switching the coil -- but it makes the relay
> or contactor dropout much slower, which is much harder on its contacts.
> So, it's the old "trade-off" game again. Which are you trying to
> protect; the contactor's contacts or its coil driver?
> There are other circuits -- a diode is just the cheapest solution.
Exactly.
And there are tradeoffs.
Back-to-back zener diodes can be used instead of just a diode to shorten
the turn-off time of a coil since:
dt = -L * di/dv
The higher the DV, the shorter the DT for a given DI.
The added zener increases DV from under 1v to the zener voltage. This
could easily be a factor of 10x or more. The result is a reduced DT.
The tradeoff is that zeners need to handle the coil current.
Also, you don't need 2 zeners---a zener in series with a diode will work
(appropriately polarized and rated for the currents).
Everywhere a tradeoff.
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James,
The E-15 tractors I sold, 1st I gave the pre-Apollo wiring a hair-cut.
Replaced bearings, mechanical worn steering parts, repainted. Started over
with a 48V Club Car (slider pot on dash) shunt motor speed control, tapped
the secondary on the charger for C/40 final taper at 2.58V per cell 4A at
62V for the dv/dt=0 and used a Mot uP to control the dash display readout.
The 48V conversion is easy with 6ea T-875's or USGC8Vers. The front
attachments PTO was done with a second club car control without hooking up
the field wiires.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
> Well, for the golf cart, no big deal. I *THINK* the controller in it
> would handle it fairly easily, so I would just need another charger (not
> once the solar system is built, but until then)
>
> I'm not at ALL sure about the elec-traks.
>
> Since they use contact controllers, my gut says that I could do that,
> but I'm not sure if that would run the deck motors too "rich" or not.
>
> I bet it would mow like hell! I know I'd have to replace the
> headlights and the horn.
>
> Hmmm... You know that does kinda sound doable.... I could build a
> front (or rear) battery box so the ET could hold an extra pair of 6v
> batteries.
>
> Something doesn't feel right tho, I'm sure I'd burn something up on the
> ET's.
>
> James
>
> damon henry wrote:
>
> > Perhaps the easier solution is to change voltages on your EV's. How
> > hard would it be to run them all on 48V?
> >
> >> From: "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
> >> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:18:09 -0500
> >>
> >> Several weeks ago I mentioned that I wanted to build a solar charging
> >> shed for my Elec-Trak I-5. As is so often the case in these
> >> projects, it has taken on a life of it's own.
> >>
> >> My wife and I are in the process of designing/building a new house.
> >> This house, when completed will be grid attached, but will have a
> >> substantial solar/wind power system to provide for 90+ % of it's
> >> energy needs.
> >>
> >> Since all of my electric vehicles are 36v, (ET-12M ET I-5, Golf cart)
> >> I had thought about making the whole system 36v. That way, in a
> >> pinch, the energy stored in the ET's and or the Golf Cart could be
> >> used for backup house power. By my calculations, a fully charged
> >> Elec-Trak with good batteries could provide 100% of my homes energy
> >> for more than a day. That is a very NICE backup indeed.
> >>
> >> I can find 36v wind turbines to add to the system easily. Solar
> >> panels can be wired 3 in series for a 36v nominal array, and I can
> >> find 36v charge controllers easily enough on the internet. My
> >> problem is finding a 36v 60 hz true-sine inverter of sufficient power.
> >>
> >> I can find 36v 50hz models all day long. They are common down under,
> >> but a 60 hz version I can't seem to find. Ideally I want to provide
> >> my house with 220 60 hz power. For a 12, 24, or 48v system, that is
> >> typically done by putting two 110v 60 hz systems in series.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110
> >> sine wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters, OR
> >> know of a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave
> >> into 220 60 hz?
> >>
> >> Thanks in Advance.
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James;
Based on this and others responses, I would go with the APS3636. In fact I
plan to do just as you say, replace my I-5 charger with the APS3636.
You didn't mention Penney (is it Henney Penney, or Penney Henney?) in your
stable of EV's, is she gone?
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:59:38 -0500, "Chris Tromley"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm quite interested in this as well. I haven't determined yet what
>>kind of waveform the motor on my shredder wants to see, but I suspect
>>it wants a real sine wave. I didn't find much available with 36VDC
>>input. Nor for modified sine wave inverters either. For me (maybe you
>>too?) it seems there might be some hope of finding a 36 VDC UPS system
>>on eBay for a reasonable price, if a modified sine wave is OK. These
>>are typically described as suitable for computers, telecomm, etc. Not
>>sure what your needs are regarding waveform.
>>
>>Any guidelines on what applications really need a true sine wave?
>>Particularly the motor I posted about ("How to drive my shredder")?
>
> I've been using inverters since the mid 80s when I built a whole office
> UPS
> using a large Tripp-Lite square wave (not pseudo sine) inverter. Despite
> popular rumors to the contrary, everything ran just fine - PCs, a router,
> HP
> laserprinter, etc. The only thing that did not work was the office
> microwave. It would run but not heat because it relied on the peak
> voltage
> not present in a square wave. Even the stereo ran, though it had a low
> level buzz.
>
> Electric motors got a little warmer that normal because of the high
> harmonic
> content of the square wave.
>
> Currently my largest inverter is the 3kw one in my MH. With one
> exception,
> everything that I've tried has run fine. The microwave oven runs fine,
> though it makes a little less heat. Motors do not overheat, though they
> do
> emit a little more buzz. Computers, printers, test equipment - they all
> work properly.
>
> The one exception is the class of Ni-cad and NiMH battery chargers that
> are
> transformerless. These typically use a capacitor in series with the line
> to
> regulate the current. Cordless drill chargers are the largest type in the
> class. Some digicam battery chargers too. My Canon charger works fine
> while my Nikon one just sits there.
>
> Computers are actually among the MOST tolerant of crappy power. I first
> became aware of that after buying an early small UPS which output 145
> volts
> DC. I smoked a desk fan learning that one. The first thing that happens
> to
> the incoming power inside most PC power supplies is it is rectified to DC
> so
> the waveform doesn't matter.
>
> For a household UPS, my only concern would be for A/V equipment and then
> only because of the buzz the modified square wave inverter would produce.
> My
> approach would be to buy a large modified square wave inverter for the
> house
> and a small sine wave one for the A/V equipment and battery chargers that
> require a sine wave.
>
> John
>
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm... I think I have to disagree with Shari here. Maybe there are
different versions of the BC-20, I'm not sure, but a couple years ago I
upgraded my mother's EV from 108V to 144V and still used the BC-20. I
spoke with (a gentleman whose name I forget) at K&W, and he confirmed
that even though the manual doesn't list the unit as working at 144V, it
in fact will work that high just fine if you add a boost transformer and
also change the fixed resistor(s) inside the charger. (These resistors
always have to be installed to match the nominal pack voltage. There's
no soldering involved, as there are sockets for them.) I believe that
the fixed resistor(s) set the coarse voltage range, that is then fine
tuned with the external pot. I purchased the boost transformer from Ken
at KTA, and I think I also got the required fixed resistor(s) from Ken
as well, though I may have gotten them from directly K&W. (The
resistors are nothing fancy; probably 1/4W 10%, but I don't remember the
values.)
Hope that helps.
cheers,
Andrew
Electro Automotive wrote:
Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been
told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted
a pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get
away with this charger, but it just be a little slower?
No, you cannot use this charger. Even for a 120V pack, it requires a
booster unit, and is not rated up to 144V. If you try to run it as
is, your pack will never get fully charged. When the pack hits full
charge for 108V (or whatever the charger is programmed for), the
charger will say, "Ok, I'm done!" and drop down to a tiny finish
current level.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot there is picture here:
http://www.alel.biz/Alel/Express.html
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GROSJEAN Gilles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
> I'm having many request about this batteries so this is a general answer:
>
> This is all information i have on the pack there is 4 or 5 available.
>
> 18 blocs (6V- 140Ah - NiCd) which are in two cases.
> - One small case with electrical connections (plated connectors, fuse,
> relay, temperature
> sensor) water connection (water level) and fans.
> 6 blocs STM 5-140 from SAFT- So a voltage of 36V and 140Ah
> Case dimensions: length: 360mm , width: 940mm, Height: 280mm
>
> - One big case with electrical connections (plated connectors, fuse,
relay,
> temperature
> sensor), water connection (water level) and fans.
> 12 blocs STM-140 from SAFT - So a voltage of 72V and 140Ah
> Case dimensions: length: 785mm (+70mm for the fans) - Width: 890mm -
Heigth:
> 280mm
>
> Each bloc dimensions: length: 244mm - Width: 153mm - Heigth: 260mm
> actual Cycle number used: 10 to 20 cycles - Time life: 1500 cycles at
> 80%DOD -
> Weigth: 17kg
>
> total weight for one pack is 324kgs (715 pound)
>
> If i remember correctly last price was about 4000 euros for one pack,
> shipment quote about 1000 euros (quote for 2 pack) but you may look about
> USA overseas transport company price.
>
> for other question ONLY ABOUT PURCHASE contact directly the seller
> www.ALEL.biz
>
> thanks for your understanding.
> Philippe
> over the pond.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philippe Borges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:31 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
>
> what a pitty being on this side off the pond, i now about 80 like new
> STM5-140MR sitting and nobody to use them....because here in France there
is
> no way to put a conversion on the road, law is law :^(
>
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
its not exactly impossible but law is making it "near impossible"
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 3:34 PM
Subject: Conversions
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
>
>
> > what a pitty being on this side off the pond, i now about 80 like new
> > STM5-140MR sitting and nobody to use them....because here in France
there
> is
> > no way to put a conversion on the road, law is law :^(
> >
> > Philippe
>
> Wow, I thought there, it was fairly progressive, probably worried about
Joe
> six-pack driving something unsafe, but they could just as well pass an
> inspection though. I wonder if there are other places where they don't
allow
> conversions. I guess that could inadvertently happen here if there were a
> lot of factory EV's running around and conversions got legislated out.
That
> would certainly *ruin* my day if I couldn't convert (read afford) an EV.
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Here's something which I've wondered about for a while:
I have a Raptor 600 controller, on which I have the potentiometer for
current limit turned all the way up (max current). I have a 0-400 amp
ammeter on the battery side of the controller, with the shunt inserted
between the controller/motor (-) buss bar and the (-) contactor.
Watching the ammeter while driving around, I notice that the higher the
gear I'm in, the less battery amps I can pull. For example, I can get
the ammeter to read 400 amps (peg) if I floor it in 1st gear. However,
if I shift to 2nd gear, I can't seem to pull more than about 350 amps
with the accelerator floored. 3rd gear starts to get bad, as I can't get
more than about 280 amps, and 4th gear is practically unusable as I
can't seem to pull more than about 210 amps, no matter what. And I do
have to start out in 1st gear because I can't get going in any
reasonable amount of time from 2nd (3rd is impossible).
I realize that there is a difference in battery and motor amps, but I
don't fully understand why. Is it because of a difference in input vs.
output voltage of the controller, or what?
My biggest problem is that my acceleration in the higher gears is
horrible because I can't seem to pull enough current from the batteries.
I realize that this is probably because the Raptor is hitting it's max
output of 600 motor amps and is going into current limit as the LEDs
indicate (In fact, according to the LEDs, my controller is always in
current limit when I floor it, no matter what gear). What I don't
understand is this: why does it hit current limit so much sooner in the
higher gears (and less battery amps get drawn)? I'm guessing it is
related to torque and the transmission?
Thanks for any insight on this.
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
