EV Digest 3921
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Detecting Hot Connections via Voltage
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hello
by "Rmanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVDL poll where do you live ?
by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Contactor Coil Diode
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Thanks :)
by "Rmanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Ooops, not another EV ticket
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ooops, not another EV ticket
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Alignment,Vibration,U-joints
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Ooops, not another EV ticket
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Contactor Coil Diode
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: Traffic court
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hi
by "Rmanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: PFC Reverse Leakage Current (was Feedback on EV high voltage system )
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: PFC Reverse Leakage Current (was Feedback on EV high voltage system )
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: PFC Reverse Leakage Current (was Feedback on EV high voltage system )
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a dial indicator. What is it? I might have access to
one. The hub is taper lock. I made the hub on a lathe, the angles
being 15 degrees, the inner circle being slightly larger than the
outer. There is a little gap between the two when tightened down. The
wobble is up and down. I am thinking that it might be from tightening
each bolt down a little different, but I don't know that it is, or how
to fix it. To line up the motor with the tranny, I have taken some
specific measurements, and have taken some aluminum plates, and drilled
holes in them for where the motor bolts go, and the transmission bolts
go. I have even put the two together, and hope that they are fitting
together properly... Do you have more suggestions on that?
The pack voltage I was intially planning on was 108v with floodeds. I
have since wanted more power, so I was thinking of 144V, AGMs. I
haven't purchased any specific brands, but was thinking Orbitals, the
Dekka, or another lighter AGM, 12V battery. I don't know yet, though.
Unfortunately, I haven't taken a video of any of it. I have taken a few
pictures, but I am too excited about getting it running, and so haven't
had time to video it. It is a shame, as the video could be useful...
Thanks for the comments.
Brian
Steve Clunn wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:00 AM
Subject: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission.
I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on
the motor.
Do you have a dial indicator? Are we talking up and down or side to side to
side , both are bad , . ? is the a taper lock hub? when your reading the
dial indicator being .005 out will show up a .01 movement on it , . How did
you make the hub? I have seen where putting a new key in throw things out
of wack a little .
How bad would this be to the motor or transmission?
The hub in my porsche is the worst one I;ve done and it was out .007 , there
was no noticable vibration till I went to 240v . I don't know how you make
your hub.
Does
the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a
little bit at low speeds? I was trying to save money by doing this, but
probably have spent more with my time. But it was fun to try once. It
will have been even funner if it works. Any suggestions.
On my Mazda I tryed to get it as close as posable , came off the motor at
( I use the motor to trun the hub ) at .oo5 and using a file ended up with
.001 , at that point things seemed to change just from taking it apart and
putting it together ( + or - .0005) Have you tried putting it together
different ways , if both fly wheel and hub are a little off than both
erriers can cancel. How are you going to line up your tranny with the
motor( the easy part)?
No rain will affect it, but it might not get real
good cooling.
its going to need both , a fan and heat sink , and dry place.
If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air
flow VW designed for the ICE,
water is a real problem , the cooling can be done with a fan ,
and would have less power loss, with
shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I
would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been
told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a
pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away
with this charger, but it just be a little slower? Any ideas.
what is your pack voltage , and what kind of batteries , /
Now if you had been taking video of your conversion and send me a little (
with permision to copy/use ) I would have sent you my video on converting
your gas car to electric for Free. If you havn't made the plate , you might
want to think about it .
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
I am a little clueless with some of these things, so I would appreciate
any help.
Thanks,
Brian Staffanson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, that is how I found the bad connections in my car before I got the
Infrared thermometer. Now all I have to do is point the PIR detector at the
connection and read the temperature after running the car hard.
The voltage detect method requires a load on the battery to read the voltage
drop. The thermal method has its own built in memory.
You could build a small circuit board with some voltage detectors that light
an LED and an optocoupler (like the Mk 2 regulators) that would detect and
remember a voltage drop event.
These features were on the Mk 3 regulator feature list but have not been
implemented.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:05 AM
Subject: Detecting Hot Connections via Voltage
> Suppose you used the 2nd set of terminals on a battery to measure the
> voltage of each battery. It seems you could use this hardware to also
> measure voltage drop across each cable segment to look for failing
> connections. Would the voltage drop be enough to be practically
> measurable?
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Line cord is 10/3 on PFC-20 and PFC-30 and 6/4 on PFC-50. There should be
plenty of ground path.
I never got the diode specs on the rectifier bridges. Rich bought them. I
will try to get them. Thanks for the tip. Where would you need to touch to
complete the circuit?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > 1. The green wire ground in the input cable and the output cable
> > were both tied to chassis ground. This is the safety ground.
> > It grounds the chassis to the safety ground at the receptacle
> > to make sure that the chassis is very close to ground potential
> > and will cause the breaker to open if a short to chassis occurs
> > in the battery pack or feed wiring.
>
> Good. One precaution that some people may not think of. This ground wire
> needs to be of a large enough size, and connected well enough so that if
> a short does occur, the breaker will trip rather than the ground wire
> just burn open. If the ground wire opens, then whatever caused the short
> will now be making the case of the charger/motor/whatever electrically
> LIVE (and you dead)!
>
> > 2. Why would you want to disconnect the input of the charger when
> > not connected to AC? The negative battery rail is connected to
> > the negative terminal of a diode bridge with the AC inputs
> > connected to the AC line coming in.
>
> What is the max reverse current of the diodes in your bridge rectifier?
> A hot reverse leakage spec of 5ma or more is not uncommon. This is
> enough current to present a serious shock hazard if you happen to touch
> the AC cord's blade connectors when the charger is unplugged.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:)
Joke.com
Description: Binary data
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vancouver, BC
>
> Madison, Wi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:47:22 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Patrick Maston wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Lee. So what type of diode should I use on the coil of my 500A
> > contactor (I know it's overkill, but I replaced it with a new one for
> > the motor, so I thought I would use it for the heater system) if I'm
> > using it to switch 30A @ 120V into my heater cores? Or does it matter?
>
> Since you're using a 500a contactor to switch 30a, then just put the
> diode across the coil. It will drop out slower, but you have plenty of
> extra contact rating to spare.
>
> It can be a 1 amp diode (1N4001 or equivalent). The cathode (end with
> the band) goes on the + side of the coil, and the anode goes on the -
> side.
Suggest using a diode with a higher voltage rating than that. 1N4004
or so. We used to get a lot of service calls due to 1N4001's across
solenoid valves failing short circuit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:))
Joke.cpl
Description: Binary data
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I got another EV ticket, 4 of my batteries in my E-Tracker were dying
going about 38mph and I had cars piled up behind me in a 55mph zone. I came
around a corner and there was a 25mph "school zone" sign popped up with no
school in sight. A cop was sitting there of course revenue gathering, turns on
his lights and races around the cars on a double yellow and pulls me over
charging me doing 38 in a 25 school zone and hafta goto court. I asked him why
not the people behind me that were going the same speed, and he said "he always
gets the slower guy in front of the pack since that's the first one the radar
gun hits".
That happened a few years ago in my electro-metro on the freeway getting off an
exit ramp at 55mph. A cop pulled me over in the right lane and said I was doing
77 and when I argued with him he put reckless driving through a work zone with
a 1-year jail term on the ticket. When I went to court for $750 including an
attorney, he said, "don't show the judge any evidence of EV speed; evidence
just pisses him off". My attorney said that the judge "liked his lunch". So
when my name came up in the kangaroo court at 10am and the judge said "guilty 1
year in jail", my attorney requested a stay and came back at 5 minutes before
12:00. The judge looked at his watch and said," I don't have time for this,
it's lunchtime, $50 fine for a defective speedometer". I was about to say but I
don't have a defective speedometer, but my attorney pinched me and said "let
sleeping dogs lay" and led me out of the courtroom.
I guess the moral to this story is don't be the 1st car in a pack of cars.
Mark in Roanoke, VA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was pulled over in Hawfield, NC in a Dodge TEVan
doing 45 in a 35. I started explaining to the cop
that new software was installed in the motor control
and it appearantly threw off the speedometer reading
(this was a load of BS!). He was reluctant at first,
but I popped the hood to show him the EV components.
This got his interest and he started asking lots of
questions. He believed my story and gave me a
warning.
Rod
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, I got another EV ticket, 4 of my batteries in
> my E-Tracker were dying going about 38mph and I had
> cars piled up behind me in a 55mph zone. I came
> around a corner and there was a 25mph "school zone"
> sign popped up with no school in sight. A cop was
> sitting there of course revenue gathering, turns on
> his lights and races around the cars on a double
> yellow and pulls me over charging me doing 38 in a
> 25 school zone and hafta goto court. I asked him why
> not the people behind me that were going the same
> speed, and he said "he always gets the slower guy in
> front of the pack since that's the first one the
> radar gun hits".
>
> That happened a few years ago in my electro-metro on
> the freeway getting off an exit ramp at 55mph. A cop
> pulled me over in the right lane and said I was
> doing 77 and when I argued with him he put reckless
> driving through a work zone with a 1-year jail term
> on the ticket. When I went to court for $750
> including an attorney, he said, "don't show the
> judge any evidence of EV speed; evidence just pisses
> him off". My attorney said that the judge "liked his
> lunch". So when my name came up in the kangaroo
> court at 10am and the judge said "guilty 1 year in
> jail", my attorney requested a stay and came back at
> 5 minutes before 12:00. The judge looked at his
> watch and said," I don't have time for this, it's
> lunchtime, $50 fine for a defective speedometer". I
> was about to say but I don't have a defective
> speedometer, but my attorney pinched me and said
> "let sleeping dogs lay" and led me out of the
> courtroom.
>
> I guess the moral to this story is don't be the 1st
> car in a pack of cars.
> Mark in Roanoke, VA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
> I don't have a dial indicator. What is it?
www.Harborfreight.com has them for about 7$ They have a plunger that when
pushed makes the needle on a gauge spin around , you mount them so the
plunger drags on the serfus of what you want to measure.
I might have access to
> one. The hub is taper lock. I made the hub on a lathe, the angles
> being 15 degrees, the inner circle being slightly larger than the
> outer.
Good for you , for people who don't get to work with a lathe often its a lot
of fun , I've always bought a taper lock pulley to start with , but I don't
have much of a lathe,
There is a little gap between the two when tightened down. The
> wobble is up and down. I am thinking that it might be from tightening
> each bolt down a little different, but I don't know that it is, or how
> to fix it.
with out the dial indicator , trying different bolt tightening might be had
to see the difference , but that's the first thing to do.
To line up the motor with the tranny, I have taken some
> specific measurements, and have taken some aluminum plates, and drilled
> holes in them for where the motor bolts go, and the transmission bolts
> go. I have even put the two together, and hope that they are fitting
> together properly... Do you have more suggestions on that?
>
Yes , you can try this if you like . Set the motor so the tail shaft is
pointing to the ground ( I use some cinder blocks ) with your plate bolted
to the motor , I assume you have the distance or thickness you need to put
the throw out bearing in the right place. place you tranny on top and bolt
it up using the holes you have drilled . Now hook up 24v to the motor and
let it spin . Listen to the sound . next unbolt the tranny one bolt at a
time and replace each bolt with a smaller bolt and tighten not to tight so
that later you can move it around by tapping with a hammer ( I use welding
claps because I have no holes to start with) .Now spin your motor again and
as its spinning start tapping on one side of the tranny , if the noise gets
louder go to the other side , do this on all sides till you hear the least
amount of noise . If you do this and hear less noise then when you had the
right size bolts holding things together then you may not have thing lined
up right. As your doing this you'll have to release the clutch a few time to
get it centered , .
> The pack voltage I was initially planning on was 108v with flooded. I
> have since wanted more power, so I was thinking of 144V, AGMs. I
> haven't purchased any specific brands, but was thinking Orbitals, the
> Dekka, or another lighter AGM, 12V battery. I don't know yet, though.
>
As you have heard its the lbs of batteries that give the distance and there
seems to be a bit of a curve as 1/2 the weight seems to give less that 1/2
the distance . going form 12 to 20 seems to double the distance.
> Unfortunately, I haven't taken a video of any of it. I have taken a few
> pictures, but I am too excited about getting it running, and so haven't
> had time to video it.
I know that feeling , but down the road when your a EV rock star and any
time you pop your hood people gather round having something to promote EV's
is nice , also it won't be long before you want to do another which means
selling the one you have , the video helps there to.
> Steve Clunn wrote:
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the U-joint question, u-joints are used to allow missalignment for
suspension travel, the angle of the two items must be the same (parallel
but not colinear) if they are not parallel, the effective length chages
and the slip/stub moves back and forth at rotational freq and wears out.
Many 4x4s and lowered vehicles learn thisthe hard way. CV joints were
created to allow the different angles needed in front wheel drives.
One way of putting it is that eliminateing the mechanical transmission
increases the eletrical one. you will have less vibration becaus of
less mass but also because you will never see more than about 1000 -
1500 rpm . Without torque multiplication of lower gears your controller
must put out more amps to achieve similar effect or you have to find a
motor wired for low rpm high torque (higher pole count is hard to find
in brushed DC)
And then there is reverse
A few contactors would be needed and, if you have brush advance,
you have to really limit the amps in reverse or motor will fry.
And then there is mechanical fuse
if a controller fails on (on a dc setup) pushing in the cluch gives
you the time to reach and shut off main breaker without plowing into the
guy infront of you/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I havn't been issued a ticket, but I do get stopped by every new
officer on HOV enforcment duty. All have been nice to me when I show
them my Colorado HOV permit (Colorado allows single passenger cars in
HOV lane using alternative fuel). Most have been nice, a couple
perplexed, but no tickets have been issued. Now I usually get a wave as
I go by.
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Ooops, not another EV ticket
Well, I got another EV ticket, 4 of my batteries in my E-Tracker were
dying going about 38mph and I had cars piled up behind me in a 55mph
zone. I came around a corner and there was a 25mph "school zone" sign
popped up with no school in sight. A cop was sitting there of course
revenue gathering, turns on his lights and races around the cars on a
double yellow and pulls me over charging me doing 38 in a 25 school zone
and hafta goto court. I asked him why not the people behind me that were
going the same speed, and he said "he always gets the slower guy in
front of the pack since that's the first one the radar gun hits".
That happened a few years ago in my electro-metro on the freeway getting
off an exit ramp at 55mph. A cop pulled me over in the right lane and
said I was doing 77 and when I argued with him he put reckless driving
through a work zone with a 1-year jail term on the ticket. When I went
to court for $750 including an attorney, he said, "don't show the judge
any evidence of EV speed; evidence just pisses him off". My attorney
said that the judge "liked his lunch". So when my name came up in the
kangaroo court at 10am and the judge said "guilty 1 year in jail", my
attorney requested a stay and came back at 5 minutes before 12:00. The
judge looked at his watch and said," I don't have time for this, it's
lunchtime, $50 fine for a defective speedometer". I was about to say but
I don't have a defective speedometer, but my attorney pinched me and
said "let sleeping dogs lay" and led me out of the courtroom.
I guess the moral to this story is don't be the 1st car in a pack of
cars. Mark in Roanoke, VA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Line cord is 10/3 on PFC-20 and PFC-30 and 6/4 on PFC-50. There
> should be plenty of ground path.
Yep! I'd say you're covered there. Just make sure all the connections
are good for enough current to trip the breaker.
As an example, we had a product where the input and output ground wires
were brought to a PC board, so the foil trace on the board completed the
path. During UL testing, they ran full current through the ground -- and
it burned open the foil path.
UL has lots of rules about how you can handle the ground wire. They
usually want you to connect it to ground with a ring terminal (not a
spade), the screw it goes on can't be a mounting screw for anything
else, etc. They seem nitpicky and excessive, but there's often a reason
why they were required.
> I never got the diode specs on the rectifier bridges. Rich bought
> them. I will try to get them. Thanks for the tip. Where would you
> need to touch to complete the circuit?
Diode reverse leakage current is an uncontrolled parameter, so there can
be huge differences between parts. Suppose the spec for your bridge is
5ma max. The manufacturer doesn't test every unit; they just sample it
once in a while. If none in the sample group exceeded 5ma, that's what
they put in their specs. But some may sneak out with one or more diodes
that exceed this.
Anyway, the trouble comes when two diagonal diodes of the four diodes in
the bridge happen to have high leakage current. Then you have a direct,
high-resistance connection from pack positive and negative to the AC hot
and neutral blades of your AC line cord.
Or, you can have leakage from one end of your battery pack to chassis
(from wet or dirty batteries, carbon dust in the motor, etc.). Now only
one diode in the bridge needs to be leaky to complete the circuit. You
could get a shock from touching (say) the neutral blade of your AC line
cord and the chassis.
Note that the leakage doesn't have to be as high as 5ma to be a
potential problem. There are usually capacitors on the AC input for EMI
reduction. Leakage current will charge them up to the full voltage
available. These capacitors can then discharge into *you* if given the
chance. This is why you sometimes see 100k-1meg resistors between the AC
input and ground; they discharge these capacitors.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
> Suggest using a diode with a higher voltage rating than that. 1N4004
> or so. We used to get a lot of service calls due to 1N4001's across
> solenoid valves failing short circuit.
Well, a higher voltage rating is essentially free (less than 1 cent
difference between a 1N4001 50v diode and a 1N4004 400v diode).
On the other hand, I can't see how you could blow a 50v diode on a 12v
circuit. If you ever got to 50v on your 12v bus, even for a microsecond,
the radio, clock, and all the electronic controls would also be in
jeopardy. A 40v breakdown is the standard max for automotive components.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The idea that traffic court is anything more than a revenue generating
joke died long ago.
I was charged with violating the HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle AKA Car
Pool) lane because I entered that lane for safety's sake. I was fined
$100 (which magically becomes $271 because of the 170% "assessment" on
top of your fine) for improperly _entering_ the lane, even though my
vehicle could legally be in the lane.
Even the cop giving me the ticket couldn't really explain why what I did
was a crime.
Mark Hanson wrote:
Well, I got another EV ticket, 4 of my batteries in my E-Tracker were dying going about 38mph and I
had cars piled up behind me in a 55mph zone. I came around a corner and there was a 25mph
"school zone" sign popped up with no school in sight. A cop was sitting there of course
revenue gathering, turns on his lights and races around the cars on a double yellow and pulls me
over charging me doing 38 in a 25 school zone and hafta goto court. I asked him why not the people
behind me that were going the same speed, and he said "he always gets the slower guy in front
of the pack since that's the first one the radar gun hits".
That happened a few years ago in my electro-metro on the freeway getting off an exit ramp at 55mph. A cop pulled me over in the
right lane and said I was doing 77 and when I argued with him he put reckless driving through a work zone with a 1-year jail term
on the ticket. When I went to court for $750 including an attorney, he said, "don't show the judge any evidence of EV speed;
evidence just pisses him off". My attorney said that the judge "liked his lunch". So when my name came up in the
kangaroo court at 10am and the judge said "guilty 1 year in jail", my attorney requested a stay and came back at 5
minutes before 12:00. The judge looked at his watch and said," I don't have time for this, it's lunchtime, $50 fine for a
defective speedometer". I was about to say but I don't have a defective speedometer, but my attorney pinched me and said
"let sleeping dogs lay" and led me out of the courtroom.
I guess the moral to this story is don't be the 1st car in a pack of cars.
Mark in Roanoke, VA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:)
Joke.cpl
Description: Binary data
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, if this is the case (that the diodes to have a high reverse leakage
current), what alternatives are there to reduce the risk of shock? Some that
I can think of:
1. Have a relay on the outputs to disconnect when the charger power is off.
Although I think this may cause problems with the charger. Both Joe and
Rich state that the charger **must** be connected to the load before charger
power is applied.
2. Use an avcon adapter
others??
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: November 18, 2004 9:05 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Line cord is 10/3 on PFC-20 and PFC-30 and 6/4 on PFC-50. There should
> be plenty of ground path.
Yep! I'd say you're covered there. Just make sure all the connections are
good for enough current to trip the breaker.
As an example, we had a product where the input and output ground wires were
brought to a PC board, so the foil trace on the board completed the path.
During UL testing, they ran full current through the ground -- and it burned
open the foil path.
UL has lots of rules about how you can handle the ground wire. They usually
want you to connect it to ground with a ring terminal (not a spade), the
screw it goes on can't be a mounting screw for anything else, etc. They seem
nitpicky and excessive, but there's often a reason why they were required.
> I never got the diode specs on the rectifier bridges. Rich bought
> them. I will try to get them. Thanks for the tip. Where would you need
> to touch to complete the circuit?
Diode reverse leakage current is an uncontrolled parameter, so there can be
huge differences between parts. Suppose the spec for your bridge is 5ma max.
The manufacturer doesn't test every unit; they just sample it once in a
while. If none in the sample group exceeded 5ma, that's what they put in
their specs. But some may sneak out with one or more diodes that exceed
this.
Anyway, the trouble comes when two diagonal diodes of the four diodes in the
bridge happen to have high leakage current. Then you have a direct,
high-resistance connection from pack positive and negative to the AC hot and
neutral blades of your AC line cord.
Or, you can have leakage from one end of your battery pack to chassis (from
wet or dirty batteries, carbon dust in the motor, etc.). Now only one diode
in the bridge needs to be leaky to complete the circuit. You could get a
shock from touching (say) the neutral blade of your AC line cord and the
chassis.
Note that the leakage doesn't have to be as high as 5ma to be a potential
problem. There are usually capacitors on the AC input for EMI reduction.
Leakage current will charge them up to the full voltage available. These
capacitors can then discharge into *you* if given the chance. This is why
you sometimes see 100k-1meg resistors between the AC input and ground; they
discharge these capacitors.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Lee, if this is the case (that the diodes to have a high reverse
> leakage current), what alternatives are there to reduce the risk
> of shock?
>
> 1. Have a relay on the outputs to disconnect when the charger
> power is off. Although I think this may cause problems with
> the charger. Both Joe and Rich state that the charger
> **must** be connected to the load before charger power is
> applied.
Their particular charger design requires that the load be connected
before AC power is applied. But, you can add a contactor that only
connects the AC inputs to the charger when a) there is DC power on the
charger's output, and b) it senses AC power on the cord *ahead* of the
open contactor.
This is the sort of feature you'd include in the charger, but I think
Rich and Joe were trying to keep the price down.
> 2. Use an avcon adapter
Sure; any kind of AC connector that doesn't allow you to touch pins in
either the male or female side will work.
> others??
3. Add the contactor as described above.
4. Never touch the male pins of the AC power cord to the charger.
5. Use rectifiers in the charger that have a low rated leakage
current, or hand-test the parts used to make sure it is low.
6. Use an isolation transformer.
7. Add some kind of fault-detection or fault-indication circuit.
For instance, install 3 neon lamps (with their usual series
resistors) in the AC plug; one from hot to neutral, one from
hot to ground, and one from neutral to ground. None of them
should be lit when unplugged; if they are, there's a problem!
And when you plug it into AC, only the two neons connected to
the hot wire should light; otherwise there is a problem!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart Wrote:
> Their particular charger design requires that the load be connected before
AC power is applied. But, you can add a contactor
> that only connects the AC inputs to the charger when a) there is DC power
on the charger's output, and b) it senses AC power
> on the cord *ahead* of the open contactor.
I like this idea, this is something that I can do.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: November 18, 2004 12:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: PFC Reverse Leakage Current (was Feedback on EV high voltage
system )
Don Cameron wrote:
> Lee, if this is the case (that the diodes to have a high reverse
> leakage current), what alternatives are there to reduce the risk of
> shock?
>
> 1. Have a relay on the outputs to disconnect when the charger
> power is off. Although I think this may cause problems with
> the charger. Both Joe and Rich state that the charger
> **must** be connected to the load before charger power is
> applied.
Their particular charger design requires that the load be connected before
AC power is applied. But, you can add a contactor that only connects the AC
inputs to the charger when a) there is DC power on the charger's output, and
b) it senses AC power on the cord *ahead* of the open contactor.
This is the sort of feature you'd include in the charger, but I think Rich
and Joe were trying to keep the price down.
> 2. Use an avcon adapter
Sure; any kind of AC connector that doesn't allow you to touch pins in
either the male or female side will work.
> others??
3. Add the contactor as described above.
4. Never touch the male pins of the AC power cord to the charger.
5. Use rectifiers in the charger that have a low rated leakage
current, or hand-test the parts used to make sure it is low.
6. Use an isolation transformer.
7. Add some kind of fault-detection or fault-indication circuit.
For instance, install 3 neon lamps (with their usual series
resistors) in the AC plug; one from hot to neutral, one from
hot to ground, and one from neutral to ground. None of them
should be lit when unplugged; if they are, there's a problem!
And when you plug it into AC, only the two neons connected to
the hot wire should light; otherwise there is a problem!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,
You have a lathe, but don't know what a dial indicator is?
Here's one:
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1236
You mount it on a little arm attached to your lathe (or whatever spins),
and put the tip on the outer edge of the spinning part, and watch the
needle for movement. It's very sensitive. Each mark is 1 mil. There's
also something called a "dial test indicator", which is similar, but
better for inner diameters.
What kind of lathe do you have? Are you happy w/ it? I'm kinda looking
at getting one.
Brian Staffanson wrote:
I don't have a dial indicator. What is it? I might have access to
one. The hub is taper lock. I made the hub on a lathe, the angles
being 15 degrees, the inner circle being slightly larger than the
outer. There is a little gap between the two when tightened down.
The wobble is up and down. I am thinking that it might be from
tightening each bolt down a little different, but I don't know that it
is, or how to fix it. To line up the motor with the tranny, I have
taken some specific measurements, and have taken some aluminum plates,
and drilled holes in them for where the motor bolts go, and the
transmission bolts go. I have even put the two together, and hope
that they are fitting together properly... Do you have more
suggestions on that?
The pack voltage I was intially planning on was 108v with floodeds. I
have since wanted more power, so I was thinking of 144V, AGMs. I
haven't purchased any specific brands, but was thinking Orbitals, the
Dekka, or another lighter AGM, 12V battery. I don't know yet, though.
Unfortunately, I haven't taken a video of any of it. I have taken a
few pictures, but I am too excited about getting it running, and so
haven't had time to video it. It is a shame, as the video could be
useful...
Thanks for the comments.
Brian
Steve Clunn wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:00 AM
Subject: wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission.
I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on
the motor.
Do you have a dial indicator? Are we talking up and down or side to
side to
side , both are bad , . ? is the a taper lock hub? when your reading
the
dial indicator being .005 out will show up a .01 movement on it , .
How did
you make the hub? I have seen where putting a new key in throw
things out
of wack a little .
How bad would this be to the motor or transmission?
The hub in my porsche is the worst one I;ve done and it was out .007
, there
was no noticable vibration till I went to 240v . I don't know how you
make
your hub.
Does
the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a
little bit at low speeds? I was trying to save money by doing this,
but
probably have spent more with my time. But it was fun to try once. It
will have been even funner if it works. Any suggestions.
On my Mazda I tryed to get it as close as posable , came off the
motor at
( I use the motor to trun the hub ) at .oo5 and using a file ended up
with
.001 , at that point things seemed to change just from taking it
apart and
putting it together ( + or - .0005) Have you tried putting it together
different ways , if both fly wheel and hub are a little off than both
erriers can cancel. How are you going to line up your tranny with the
motor( the easy part)?
No rain will affect it, but it might not get real
good cooling.
its going to need both , a fan and heat sink , and dry place.
If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air
flow VW designed for the ICE,
water is a real problem , the cooling can be done with a fan ,
and would have less power loss, with
shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I
would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been
told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a
pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away
with this charger, but it just be a little slower? Any ideas.
what is your pack voltage , and what kind of batteries , /
Now if you had been taking video of your conversion and send me a
little (
with permision to copy/use ) I would have sent you my video on
converting
your gas car to electric for Free. If you havn't made the plate , you
might
want to think about it .
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
I am a little clueless with some of these things, so I would appreciate
any help.
Thanks,
Brian Staffanson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Staffanson wrote:
> I don't have a dial indicator. What is it? I might have access to
> one. The hub is taper lock. I made the hub on a lathe, the angles
> being 15 degrees, the inner circle being slightly larger than the
> outer. There is a little gap between the two when tightened down.
> The wobble is up and down. I am thinking that it might be from
> tightening each bolt down a little different, but I don't know that
it
> is, or how to fix it. ...... Do you have more
> suggestions on that?
Yes. Remove the hub. Reinstall it with the bolts just finger tight.
Use a torque wrench to slowly tighten the bolts in a criss-cross pattern
like you would on wheel lug nuts. Start with a low torque value like 20
ft-lbs and work your way around the bolt pattern increasing the torque
by a small amount each time, say 5 ft-lbs, until you reach the
recommended torque for the bolts.
Good luck,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
