EV Digest 3939
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fwd: EV Album Feedback
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Vehicle Ground Strap?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Over-indulgence in potentially EV fuses....
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: we have Chevrolet S-10EV's for sale
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John this post is getting very long.
You seam to be micro engineering a lot of EVs specs.
Most of these guys do NOT have a solid data files, and are close to seat of
the pants. Yea the average is what they say.. but the peaks are a LOT
higher.
Otmar's issues are he likes to drive around in 3rd gear all the time.
Until one of us gives you a actual log of the entire run and the recharge
curve. You don't really know what the batteries actually were subjected to.
Otmar's 22 miles with 20 Orbitals is right on what I would expect. With some
heavier accelerations.
The Numbers that I am currently quoting for Orbitals, are being loaded with
a 30 amp load. A bit lighter than a 2000 amp Zilla.
So yea I am getting name plate power in a Lab setting. I tested these Orbs
when I got them, and have the Capacity in Kwhr written on thier cases.They
were tested at 1500 watts then backed off to 750 watts. The Load bank I am
using right now is loading them to about 370 watts each. So I should get
more than thier nameplate Amphours. But... I am not for equalization
reasons, and possible a weak battery. I got 3.50 Kwhr from them last night,
a slight drop from the last run Sunday. They were colder, but better
equalized.
Oh yea forget the 14 second run without a 2000 amp Zilla and rear wheel
drive... it's not gonna happen.
16s on a good day, more like 18s.
I keep telling you Yts and Orbital XCD34s are almost the exact same battery.
Both in Amphours and Puekerts, The Orbs will make 1800 amps without falling
below 6 volts for 10 seconds at 80 Deg F.
Check out the down loadable files.
The Yts intercell links open at 1200 amps and 10 seconds. We won't be
going there.
The data you are looking for, the sub 1 amphour capacity differences, are
going to be very hard to see, and I don't have factory fresh Yts to test.
The new Orbs even have a '02 date code on them.
The differences will be masked in how differently you drive and how well
your EV is set up.
I can get you sharp data, but your application won't noitice the
differences.
Also note the difference in %100 DOD, and %80 DOD, and long life cycle DOD.
Bill's 8.5Kwhr from 16 Yts is rather suspect. I have never gotten 500 watt
hours from any Yt case 24. EVER!, even at 200 watt loads. Yts Scatter around
280 watt hours, Min is 260 max is 340.
To get 530 wHrs from a Yt would take 120 Deg F and a %100 DOD taken to less
than 10 volts(1.75 Vcell). And of course a very light load. The Yts WHERE
rated at 55 amp hours at a 20 amp load, That's 660 watt hours, doing
trolling motor duty, not EV 500 amp quick start loads.
I expect that this 8.5Kwhr was a high point that this pack made with lots of
effort by the driver to coax all the range and all the power from these
batteries.
Expect 300 whrs from a Orbital, and 280 from a Yt in a 60 Deg world and 750
watts of loading. And you need to test about 6 pairs before this becomes
evident.
I expect to get 6Kwhr from 20 Orbitals with a 5 kw load.
This is in line with Getting 10+ Kwhr from Gone Postal's twin pack of 20
Orbs.(40 total) I did this on the road. No meters, just 25 miles and a 10Kw+
recharge number on my charger test equipment.
One of the things here is to keep personal bests, and Add copy runs clear,
from a normal runs and recharge without heroic efforts.
20 Orbs or Yts will get you about 20 miles....In a good 2500 lbs EV with
average loads and speeds.
Your results may Vary.....ALOT!
Ummm the Monster PFC 150 Lives....It's operational. Out to 17Kw.
Anyone one who needs a charge, in the North Kistap area of Washington
State... feel free to book a run on it.
Rod??? Get GP back together Will ya??
> I'm glad to hear about your experiences building that fast
> charger. I'm currently torn between buying the PFC50, but
> not really having many places where I could use its full
> potential, or saving a significant amount of cash and using
> a PFC20 instead. And here you are, looking at building a
> monster PFC150 for offboard charging, just around the
> corner.
>
> Thanks for all your help.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David ,
I have a better way,
Pop the load bank on Goldie's big charge port, drain her down, Log the
data.
Move the load bank to the Test Orbital pack, Load to the same point,
record.
Note that Goldie has a 8 year old mix and match set of factory prototype
Yts. And the Orbs are low cycles, 2 years of shelf life, barley broken in.
So... I expect that the pack should show about a 2:1 capacity ability...
Oh yea and Goldie and the test pack are both parked about 30 ft apart in the
same temp shop. This is good for close comparisions.
This sounds like a really good test for today.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
> Thanks for posting your research. The best comparison would be the
> same vehicle that has tried both kinds of batteries. Haven't some of
> the Sparrow folks tried both? It would be a good data point. What was
> CA Poppy's range with Optimas vs. Orbitals? Also, the drag racers may
> not be the best range data point, pulling 2000 amps from the
> batteries might do bad things for your range, and their cars are
> optimized for speed more than efficiency.
>
> A lead-acid EV1 could do over 100 miles at highway speeds if driven
> carefully, and I easily got 60-70 miles per charge when I rented them
> (included lots of acceleration tests :) ). The Tzero probably has a
> bit worse aero, but is lighter, so I could believe it would do 100
> miles if driven carefully.
>
> --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > >Optima Yellow tops are as good as they ever were.
> > >They still do a very good job for fast perky EVs.
> > >We have found that Exide Orbotal XCD34s are better
> > >for all out drag racing.
> > >But.. I would still do a EV with Yts, it's just that
> > >I would have to pay
> > >list for them right now.
> > >
> > >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
> > >street racing and high
> > >power affordable EVs.
> > >Light powerfull and clean.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and record
> > breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I can go
> > within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD at ~ 200
> > wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a 1,000 amp
> > Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total conversion
> > weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s or faster
> > in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster is
> > better. Maybe even high 14s.
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > >Wait a minute..
> > >The Orbitals that I have have almost the EXACT same
> > >capcity as Optima
> > >Yellow tops.
> > >For all but the serious die hards the two batteries
> > >are the same!!
> > >In Fact the Orbs have a little MORE capacity than
> > >the Yts.
> > >Yts new made about .28 Kw on a 1500 watt load. The
> > >Orbs make .30Kwhr
> > >I yanked 3.6 kw from 12 last night. And turned
> > >around and stuffed 13,000
> > >watts of charge into them. Note that this was a 12
> > >series string pack, and
> > >ALL were not at the same DOD. One was at 10 volts so
> > >I terminated that draw
> > >down cycle. As the pack gets better equalized, I
> > >hope to get more from all
> > >of them. As well as testing the charger's software,
> > >and the saftey BMS, I am
> > >also finding out how much effort is needed to
> > >equalize the pack. I have not
> > >given up on any single battery.
> >
> > That clarifies some things, but then raises other questions.
> >
> > Any idea how many wh Optimas would deliver at a 500 watt
> > load and how many wh Orbitals would deliver at 500 watt
> > load? 1500 watts is a lot more than I'd be taking out of
> > them just to cruise on the highway! The Orbitals have a
> > lower Peukert's exponent, meaning if their capacity at a
> > high 1500 watt load is the same as Optimas, then Optimas
> > might have more deliverable wh than the Orbitals at the
> > lower load I'd be using?
> >
> > I've come across conflicting data through the archives and
> > through descriptions of conversions that have used either
> > Optimas or Orbitals, and that has lead to confusion.
> >
> > For example, California Poppy, using 20 Orbitals, has 22
> > miles range at 60 MPH to 100% DoD, according to an email
> > Otmar sent me. He consumes about 240 wh/mile at that speed,
> > which would equate to 5.3 kWh on board. 240 wh/mile equates
> > to using 14.4 kW to maintain that speed, which would be a
> > 720 watt load per battery. He's using a lighter load and
> > getting about 12% less capacity than you are. I can think of
> > a few things leading to this discrepancy, one of them being
> > that his pack might have fewer cycles than yours on it and
> > thus hasn't attained as much capacity, or one of his
> > batteries might have an exceptionally low capacity. With
> > Optimas, he would have expected a 45 mile range to 100% DoD
> > at 65 MPH, assuming a 170 wh/mile consumption(That low
> > consumption didn't happen, as is obvious, due to everything
> > associated with the twin motor setup) and 240V of Optima YTs
> > on board, which looks tobe a huge discrepancy compared to
> > the data you provided on the YTs, but again a lighter load
> > may make all the difference in the world with the Peukert's
> > effect taken into account.
> >
> > According to Bill Dube's posts I've been reading in the
> > archives from back in 1998, his 'Wabbit' got about 35-40
> > miles highway(60-70 MPH) to 100% DoD, consuming
> > approximately 175 wh/mile at said speed, using a 192V pack.
> > This equates to about 380-440 wh per Optima, which is also a
> > large discrepancy to your data, having 50% more capacity.
> > But again, the discrepancies of how many times the pack has
> > been cycled, and the fact that he'd only been using 10.5 kW
> > of power, or a 660 watt load per Optima, to keep his car
> > going could possibly account for the differences.
> >
> > Then of course, there is AC Propulsion, which claimed 180
> > wh/mile on its TZero at 60 MPH speeds, with 336V of Optimas
> > and 80-100 miles range at that speed. That would equate to
> > 10.8 kW to keep the car moving at that speed, and about 390
> > watt load per Optima, for about 400-500 wh per Optima on
> > board. Of course, that range figure may or may not have been
> > marketing BS on AC Propulsion's part, but I'm sure the
> > figure has been well scrutinized on this list and the list
> > members seem to have accepted it as real.
> > Also from the archives, was a statement by Marc Kohler that
> > may or may not be true, on the YTs pertaining to Bill
> > Dube's EV. He mentioned that 16 YTs were good for 7.5-8.5
> > kWh, with no source listed, however. I'm curious as to
> > where that may have came from, as some conversions with YTs
> > appear to be exhibiting these figures, but this is based on
> > claims from the conversion owner, and not hard data. The
> > conversions I have found using Orbitals, however, seem to
> > show disappointing capacities in contrast. Which is also
> > contradicting your data, with various factors that may or
> > may not account for the discrepancy.
> >
> > I trust your data over claims though, as unlike claims, it
> > is actually measured and can be studied. I want to take the
> > right steps when building my EV. I need to know what to
> > expect. Do those figures I listed on those conversions seem
> > at all correct with the discrepancies listed, or are those
> > exceptional cases that might happen in the best possible
> > conditions, or are they exaggerations? I realize both the
> > Orbitals and Optimas you tested were probably nowhere near
> > their peak capacity they'd develop if cycled correctly, and
> > that at a load 1/3 of that which you used, they may have
> > drastically different capacities. Does this seem at all
> > right?
> >
> > If 30 miles highway to 80% DoD is not doable with either
> > Orbitals or Exides in a 240V string, with about 500 watts
> > load on each battery, I'd like to know. I've gotten the
> > typical 'can' and 'cannot' answers, but I'd love to figure
> > out what I'm jumping into before I plunk down some serious
> > cash(~$10k give or take a few grand) on this conversion.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear about your experiences building that fast
> > charger. I'm currently torn between buying the PFC50, but
> > not really having many places where I could use its full
> > potential, or saving a significant amount of cash and using
> > a PFC20 instead. And here you are, looking at building a
> > monster PFC150 for offboard charging, just around the
> > corner.
> >
> > Thanks for all your help.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think he meant the BB600, not the BB6600. Here's a link:
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
Christopher Robison wrote:
Where would I go to find more information about the nicads mentioned here?
A Google search for "BB6600 nickel cadmium" and "BB6600 nicad" yields zero
hits, and "BB6600 battery" yields only one hit, to an earlier archived
post to this list. Of course, "BB6600" yields all kinds of hits, none are
relevant.
--chris
jerry dycus said:
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
They will put out the power, almost no
peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
And they weight 30% less than AGM's in single
cells, immune to cold, can charge full power until
full and keeps full voltage until 10% from empty.
Or use Trojan 27TMH's for a longer range of
50% with a weight increase of 25%. You would still get
good low end 1,000 motor amp take-offs even with a
350-450 batt amp limit. Again cheaper to buy at $58
each, to charge as no batt regs needed and lower cost
chargers can be used.
Unless you need them for racing, AGM's lack
of range for the weight, should preclude them from
most EV's.
Low 15's should be doable with either of these
non AGM options. Faster with the ni-cads though almost
matching AGM's. At lower states of charge like 40%
and/or the cold, ni-cads have a stiffer voltage,
deliver more amps than those AGM's!
And the stiff voltage will help top 1/4 mile
speed. Wacking off 225lbs helps too. Or add more cells
to the same weight and beat AGM's all around!!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
street racing and high
power affordable EVs.
Light powerfull and clean.
I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and
record
breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I
can go
within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD
at ~ 200
wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a
1,000 amp
Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total
conversion
weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s
or faster
in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster
is
better. Maybe even high 14s.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
Disclaimers: I don't know anything more about the company than their
web page.
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where would I go to find more information about the nicads
> mentioned here?
>
> A Google search for "BB6600 nickel cadmium" and "BB6600 nicad"
> yields zero
> hits, and "BB6600 battery" yields only one hit, to an earlier
> archived
> post to this list. Of course, "BB6600" yields all kinds of hits,
> none are
> relevant.
>
>
> --chris
>
>
> jerry dycus said:
> > Hi John and All,
> > Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
> >
> > They will put out the power, almost no
> > peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
> > same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
> > And they weight 30% less than AGM's in single
> > cells, immune to cold, can charge full power until
> > full and keeps full voltage until 10% from empty.
> > Or use Trojan 27TMH's for a longer range of
> > 50% with a weight increase of 25%. You would still get
> > good low end 1,000 motor amp take-offs even with a
> > 350-450 batt amp limit. Again cheaper to buy at $58
> > each, to charge as no batt regs needed and lower cost
> > chargers can be used.
> > Unless you need them for racing, AGM's lack
> > of range for the weight, should preclude them from
> > most EV's.
> > Low 15's should be doable with either of these
> > non AGM options. Faster with the ni-cads though almost
> > matching AGM's. At lower states of charge like 40%
> > and/or the cold, ni-cads have a stiffer voltage,
> > deliver more amps than those AGM's!
> > And the stiff voltage will help top 1/4 mile
> > speed. Wacking off 225lbs helps too. Or add more cells
> > to the same weight and beat AGM's all around!!!
> > HTH's,
> > jerry dycus
> >
> > --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> >> >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
> >> >street racing and high
> >> >power affordable EVs.
> >> >Light powerfull and clean.
> >>
> >> I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and
> >> record
> >> breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I
> >> can go
> >> within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD
> >> at ~ 200
> >> wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a
> >> 1,000 amp
> >> Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total
> >> conversion
> >> weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s
> >> or faster
> >> in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster
> >> is
> >> better. Maybe even high 14s.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
> >
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yay Rich, thanks for the great battery data you provide to the
community.
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David ,
> I have a better way,
> Pop the load bank on Goldie's big charge port, drain her down,
> Log the
> data.
> Move the load bank to the Test Orbital pack, Load to the same
> point,
> record.
>
> Note that Goldie has a 8 year old mix and match set of factory
> prototype
> Yts. And the Orbs are low cycles, 2 years of shelf life, barley
> broken in.
> So... I expect that the pack should show about a 2:1 capacity
> ability...
>
> Oh yea and Goldie and the test pack are both parked about 30 ft
> apart in the
> same temp shop. This is good for close comparisions.
>
> This sounds like a really good test for today.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
>
>
> > Thanks for posting your research. The best comparison would be
> the
> > same vehicle that has tried both kinds of batteries. Haven't some
> of
> > the Sparrow folks tried both? It would be a good data point. What
> was
> > CA Poppy's range with Optimas vs. Orbitals? Also, the drag racers
> may
> > not be the best range data point, pulling 2000 amps from the
> > batteries might do bad things for your range, and their cars are
> > optimized for speed more than efficiency.
> >
> > A lead-acid EV1 could do over 100 miles at highway speeds if
> driven
> > carefully, and I easily got 60-70 miles per charge when I rented
> them
> > (included lots of acceleration tests :) ). The Tzero probably has
> a
> > bit worse aero, but is lighter, so I could believe it would do
> 100
> > miles if driven carefully.
> >
> > --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > >Optima Yellow tops are as good as they ever were.
> > > >They still do a very good job for fast perky EVs.
> > > >We have found that Exide Orbotal XCD34s are better
> > > >for all out drag racing.
> > > >But.. I would still do a EV with Yts, it's just that
> > > >I would have to pay
> > > >list for them right now.
> > > >
> > > >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
> > > >street racing and high
> > > >power affordable EVs.
> > > >Light powerfull and clean.
> > >
> > > I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and record
> > > breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I can go
> > > within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD at ~ 200
> > > wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a 1,000 amp
> > > Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total conversion
> > > weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s or faster
> > > in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster is
> > > better. Maybe even high 14s.
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > >Wait a minute..
> > > >The Orbitals that I have have almost the EXACT same
> > > >capcity as Optima
> > > >Yellow tops.
> > > >For all but the serious die hards the two batteries
> > > >are the same!!
> > > >In Fact the Orbs have a little MORE capacity than
> > > >the Yts.
> > > >Yts new made about .28 Kw on a 1500 watt load. The
> > > >Orbs make .30Kwhr
> > > >I yanked 3.6 kw from 12 last night. And turned
> > > >around and stuffed 13,000
> > > >watts of charge into them. Note that this was a 12
> > > >series string pack, and
> > > >ALL were not at the same DOD. One was at 10 volts so
> > > >I terminated that draw
> > > >down cycle. As the pack gets better equalized, I
> > > >hope to get more from all
> > > >of them. As well as testing the charger's software,
> > > >and the saftey BMS, I am
> > > >also finding out how much effort is needed to
> > > >equalize the pack. I have not
> > > >given up on any single battery.
> > >
> > > That clarifies some things, but then raises other questions.
> > >
> > > Any idea how many wh Optimas would deliver at a 500 watt
> > > load and how many wh Orbitals would deliver at 500 watt
> > > load? 1500 watts is a lot more than I'd be taking out of
> > > them just to cruise on the highway! The Orbitals have a
> > > lower Peukert's exponent, meaning if their capacity at a
> > > high 1500 watt load is the same as Optimas, then Optimas
> > > might have more deliverable wh than the Orbitals at the
> > > lower load I'd be using?
> > >
> > > I've come across conflicting data through the archives and
> > > through descriptions of conversions that have used either
> > > Optimas or Orbitals, and that has lead to confusion.
> > >
> > > For example, California Poppy, using 20 Orbitals, has 22
> > > miles range at 60 MPH to 100% DoD, according to an email
> > > Otmar sent me. He consumes about 240 wh/mile at that speed,
> > > which would equate to 5.3 kWh on board. 240 wh/mile equates
> > > to using 14.4 kW to maintain that speed, which would be a
> > > 720 watt load per battery. He's using a lighter load and
> > > getting about 12% less capacity than you are. I can think of
> > > a few things leading to this discrepancy, one of them being
> > > that his pack might have fewer cycles than yours on it and
> > > thus hasn't attained as much capacity, or one of his
> > > batteries might have an exceptionally low capacity. With
> > > Optimas, he would have expected a 45 mile range to 100% DoD
> > > at 65 MPH, assuming a 170 wh/mile consumption(That low
> > > consumption didn't happen, as is obvious, due to everything
> > > associated with the twin motor setup) and 240V of Optima YTs
> > > on board, which looks tobe a huge discrepancy compared to
> > > the data you provided on the YTs, but again a lighter load
> > > may make all the difference in the world with the Peukert's
> > > effect taken into account.
> > >
> > > According to Bill Dube's posts I've been reading in the
> > > archives from back in 1998, his 'Wabbit' got about 35-40
> > > miles highway(60-70 MPH) to 100% DoD, consuming
> > > approximately 175 wh/mile at said speed, using a 192V pack.
> > > This equates to about 380-440 wh per Optima, which is also a
> > > large discrepancy to your data, having 50% more capacity.
> > > But again, the discrepancies of how many times the pack has
> > > been cycled, and the fact that he'd only been using 10.5 kW
> > > of power, or a 660 watt load per Optima, to keep his car
> > > going could possibly account for the differences.
> > >
> > > Then of course, there is AC Propulsion, which claimed 180
> > > wh/mile on its TZero at 60 MPH speeds, with 336V of Optimas
> > > and 80-100 miles range at that speed. That would equate to
> > > 10.8 kW to keep the car moving at that speed, and about 390
> > > watt load per Optima, for about 400-500 wh per Optima on
> > > board. Of course, that range figure may or may not have been
> > > marketing BS on AC Propulsion's part, but I'm sure the
> > > figure has been well scrutinized on this list and the list
> > > members seem to have accepted it as real.
> > > Also from the archives, was a statement by Marc Kohler that
> > > may or may not be true, on the YTs pertaining to Bill
> > > Dube's EV. He mentioned that 16 YTs were good for 7.5-8.5
> > > kWh, with no source listed, however. I'm curious as to
> > > where that may have came from, as some conversions with YTs
> > > appear to be exhibiting these figures, but this is based on
> > > claims from the conversion owner, and not hard data. The
> > > conversions I have found using Orbitals, however, seem to
> > > show disappointing capacities in contrast. Which is also
> > > contradicting your data, with various factors that may or
> > > may not account for the discrepancy.
> > >
> > > I trust your data over claims though, as unlike claims, it
> > > is actually measured and can be studied. I want to take the
> > > right steps when building my EV. I need to know what to
> > > expect. Do those figures I listed on those conversions seem
> > > at all correct with the discrepancies listed, or are those
> > > exceptional cases that might happen in the best possible
> > > conditions, or are they exaggerations? I realize both the
> > > Orbitals and Optimas you tested were probably nowhere near
> > > their peak capacity they'd develop if cycled correctly, and
> > > that at a load 1/3 of that which you used, they may have
> > > drastically different capacities. Does this seem at all
> > > right?
> > >
> > > If 30 miles highway to 80% DoD is not doable with either
> > > Orbitals or Exides in a 240V string, with about 500 watts
> > > load on each battery, I'd like to know. I've gotten the
> > > typical 'can' and 'cannot' answers, but I'd love to figure
> > > out what I'm jumping into before I plunk down some serious
> > > cash(~$10k give or take a few grand) on this conversion.
> > >
> > > I'm glad to hear about your experiences building that fast
> > > charger. I'm currently torn between buying the PFC50, but
> > > not really having many places where I could use its full
> > > potential, or saving a significant amount of cash and using
> > > a PFC20 instead. And here you are, looking at building a
> > > monster PFC150 for offboard charging, just around the
> > > corner.
> > >
> > > Thanks for all your help.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. I forget the exact topic, but a few weeks ago Lee Hart was
saying just the opposite. Larger diameter tires, bigger gearing, lower rpm's,
etc. I'm sure that what this guy is after may be different than what the other
guy Lee was responding to was after, but still....
<<This allows the motor to turn at 5-6,500 rpm
so you can get the benefit of gearing, tractive
effort, to climb those hills without large amp draws,
hugh speed drops.
Remove the internal motor fan and replace it
with an external electric one to lower drag. They work
better anyway.
A motor running at twice the speed needs 1/2
the torque, thus amp draw to produce the same tractive
effort you need.
Tractive effort is the force at the road that
moves you. It's motor torque x gearing x wheel radius.
Smaller dia tires.
Run in the lowest possible gear and the
motor's highest rpm.>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I checked with Michelin - they no longer manufacture the Proxima tire
and do not have a substitute available.
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/29/04 12:55:30 PM >>>
According to a site I found on the web, you are correct: Michelin
Proxima RR, P175/65R14, self-sealing, 50 psi max inflation.
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/29/04 12:20:37 PM >>>
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Charles Whalen wrote:
> Hi Carl,
>
> Impressive indeed! Great looking car and project! Hope you'll keep
us
> updated on your progress.
>
> Regarding the self-sealing LRR tires, do you know where Saturn got
them,
> i.e. who actually manufactures them, the make and model? Like most
tires, I
> assume that is probably stated on the tire, right? Do you happen to
know if
> it was it a one-time limited production run done only for the EV1,
or
is it
> possible to actually special order these tires from whoever the
manufacturer
> is? Did you yourself buy them from a Saturn dealer in California,
or
did
> you get them somewhere else?
Michelin Proxima, IIRC. I have a set on my car now,m but they're
dry-rotting!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:47 PM, jerry dycus wrote:
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
They will put out the power, almost no
peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
Same power you say? These do look like they'd cost little more than a
pack of YT's, which I admit is quite tempting. However, I thought
NiCds were far from as capable as AGM's current-wise. Or are you
talking about going to a 336V pack to reduce current draw without
reducing power output and capacity? Still tempting, except I'm pretty
sure my T-Rex 1000 would bite the dust if I exceeded the 192V I'm
currently planning. Also, without higher voltage (than 336) or
paralleling packs, I don't think I could actually squeeze out much more
range (11kWh for 336V of those NiCd's, 10kWh for the YT's)...
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where do you find these ni-cads like the BB6600?
I did a Google search and found nothing : (
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:47 PM
Subject: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.4 - Release Date: 11/30/2004
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--- Begin Message ---
This came in on the EV Album feedback form. I have pulled the email
address, but I will forward any responses back to the sender.
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:50:26 -0800
Name = Phil
Email_Address =
City = Melbourne
State = FL
Country = USA
Comment = Does anyone know of the people that ran the Florida Solar Car
Corp? If so are they still here in Florida? Any info helpfull.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ben and All,
--- Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:47 PM, jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Hi John and All,
> > Why not use starting ni-cads like the
> BB6600?
Opps!!! BB600
> >
> > They will put out the power, almost no
> > peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are
> the
> > same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
>
> Same power you say? These do look like they'd cost
> little more than a
> pack of YT's, which I admit is quite tempting.
Not much. But you don't need regs, pricey charger
either. And you don't need to replace it 3-5 times
over 20 yrs!!
> However, I thought
> NiCds were far from as capable as AGM's
> current-wise. Or are you
Notice I was specific in starting type and BB600,
an aircraft starting battery. With many other ni-cads
like SAFT's, you do need to keep mostly under 250 amps
in EV use.
Others are for UPS work and not good for EV's.
> talking about going to a 336V pack to reduce current
> draw without
> reducing power output and capacity? Still tempting,
> except I'm pretty
> sure my T-Rex 1000 would bite the dust if I exceeded
> the 192V I'm
> currently planning. Also, without higher voltage
> (than 336) or
> paralleling packs, I don't think I could actually
> squeeze out much more
> range (11kWh for 336V of those NiCd's, 10kWh for the
> YT's)...
But you can more deeply discharge and otherwise
abuse ni-cads where it's curtains for AGM's if you do
that.
Add to that the 25% weight reduction, stiffer
voltage and you have better acceleration, 25-35%
better range at the same voltage at EV rates.
Double that if it gets cold where you live in the
winter.
A parallel pack at 192vdc would diffinently outdo
an Orbital pack at 336vdc at about the same weight
with about 15kwhr of useable power.
jerry dycus
>
> -Ben
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Can those things be mounted sideways? How safe are they to be in an
unvented enclosure (say the trunk)
They look tempting, main problem is fitting 250 of them in my car.
Chris
David Dymaxion wrote:
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
Disclaimers: I don't know anything more about the company than their
web page.
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Where would I go to find more information about the nicads
mentioned here?
A Google search for "BB6600 nickel cadmium" and "BB6600 nicad"
yields zero
hits, and "BB6600 battery" yields only one hit, to an earlier
archived
post to this list. Of course, "BB6600" yields all kinds of hits,
none are
relevant.
--chris
jerry dycus said:
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
They will put out the power, almost no
peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
And they weight 30% less than AGM's in single
cells, immune to cold, can charge full power until
full and keeps full voltage until 10% from empty.
Or use Trojan 27TMH's for a longer range of
50% with a weight increase of 25%. You would still get
good low end 1,000 motor amp take-offs even with a
350-450 batt amp limit. Again cheaper to buy at $58
each, to charge as no batt regs needed and lower cost
chargers can be used.
Unless you need them for racing, AGM's lack
of range for the weight, should preclude them from
most EV's.
Low 15's should be doable with either of these
non AGM options. Faster with the ni-cads though almost
matching AGM's. At lower states of charge like 40%
and/or the cold, ni-cads have a stiffer voltage,
deliver more amps than those AGM's!
And the stiff voltage will help top 1/4 mile
speed. Wacking off 225lbs helps too. Or add more cells
to the same weight and beat AGM's all around!!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
street racing and high
power affordable EVs.
Light powerfull and clean.
I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and
record
breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I
can go
within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD
at ~ 200
wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a
1,000 amp
Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total
conversion
weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s
or faster
in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster
is
better. Maybe even high 14s.
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
> Yay Rich, thanks for the great battery data you provide to the
> community.
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That data is going to have to wait... The monster charger just ate a $275
Data collection module.... GRRRRrrrr!!!!
I was going to run 13 Orbs then the old 13 Yts in Goldie.
Oh well I got 6 more Regs onto th Orbs, and added the 13 one... then Well
more distractions.....
Like hearing that a WELL KNOWN List EVer got his PFC50 eaten by UPS.
I have a punch list to check before I give up the modules for dead.... but
that's waiting for after dinner.
More later if I can still keep my eyes open when I get back to this PC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Me! I have 100 for sale. Berube had some for sale last year. Or
www.sg-photo.com.
Seth
On Dec 1, 2004, at 6:06 PM, Tim wrote:
Where do you find these ni-cads like the BB6600?
I did a Google search and found nothing : (
Tim
----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:47 PM
Subject: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.4 - Release Date: 11/30/2004
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:18 PM 30/11/04 -0700, you wrote:
Some food for thought on your clutchless shifting:
http://www.circuitcellar.com/avr2004/DA3784.html
- Steven Ciciora
Sorry steve, I don't quite see the relevance. All that I see is an
electronic gadget that saves the minor mental strain of remembering the
last gear shift or looking at the tacho and speedo and making a minor
calculation.
Much more useful if that device were able to determine the gear that you
are moving into and providing a difference signal that showed that the
motor was above or below the required RPMs for the smooth clutchless shift.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Should one of these be used on an electric vehicle
or is it unnecessary or even dangerous?
http://www.lessemf.com/images/a214.jpg
(Scroll way down)
http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
Invested earlier this week in another day-trip away to my favorite
industrial salvage yard. Apart from a couple of yet to be identified
contactors, some industrial stuff, meters and switches, I bought fuses.
Well, I bought some boxes of assorted stuff that had some useful looking
HRC fuses in them...and another box..and a box of fuses...and another, and
.... - you get the picture....well.. there were more smaller fuses in the
bottom of the boxes than I anticipated, as well as getting carried away
with the ones I was actually looking for.
So I now have HRC (high rupture capacity) fuses:
14 of 800Amp 80kA 250VDC/550VAC
2 of 700Amp 80kA 600VAC
6 of 400Amp 80kA 660VAC/40kA 460VDC
8 of 355Amp 80kA 660VAC/40kA 460VDC
20 of 315Amp 80kA 660VAC/40kA 460VDC
6 of 250A
11 of 200A 80kA 550VAC/40kA 250VDC
20 of 160A 80kA 660VAC/40kA 350VDC
plus approximately 500 fuses in the ranges 2 through to 125A
and
17 semiconductor fuse 300A 150V [FWA300]
13 semiconductor fuse 250A 250V [FWX250]
Search of the web failed to turn up a datasheet on the Bussman
semiconductor fuses, but the voltage rating seems to be a dual AC/DC rating
from the listings that I did find, although I don't know the kA interrupt
rating.
They are mostly bolt-between two terminals installation, and lengths from
around 40mm and longer. Even the 2A ones are this type. Many of them are
surface corroded in one way or other, since most of the boxes had been
siting open so the surfaces have oxidised so would need a clean before
installing.
As you can see, I over-indulged, so I have somewhat excess numbers of
fuses. Although this is mainly for Australian EVers, if you need a fuse and
we can come to an arrangement I may be able to find you a cheap fuse - or
in lower values a box of 12. Contact me if you are interested,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or by 'phone in Australia 0419 100 532. Cheap-rate
freight to the US or Europe would take weeks, and would be of marginal
cost-benefit relative to you getting one from someone in your area.
But since I have sold some of the industrial stuff for what I spent to get
the lot, I don't care if I dont sell them so have lots of fuses on the
shelf - they are for the next vehicle... and the next.. and...
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be psyched to get my hands on the NiMH version... IF it could handle
the cold New England weather. However, what scarce information there is
seemed to say that it couldn't... anyone know otherwise?
I could deal if I had to take it off the road for a few extreme cold
days, as long as no permanent damage was being done to the batteries.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Saw this on another list.....
>
In stock now:
(1) 1998 NiMH S-10EV, 20k miles (including a full coverage warranty and LPI
gen2 charger) $19,500
>
If you are interested in either, please visit the web site below.
http://www.evbones.com
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
