EV Digest 3943
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Spare Tires (getting OT?)
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Spare Tires
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Anyone got a little pot?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Li-Ion Batteries
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Anyone got a little pot?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Magura pot update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Magura pot update
by "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Magura pot update
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Calling all Ranger EVs
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) kWh/mile challenge
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) was 35 feet
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Spare tires
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Spare tires
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Magura pot update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
you are cursed i think
i haven't had a puncture in any sort of vehicle in 7 years
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<years now.>>
I continue to be amazed when people say this. The last time I saw this
discussion, I said to myself "I can't believe these people have good luck with
their tires! I don't know anyone that does!" Later that *very* same day, I got
a
big ugly screw stuck in a brand new tire. A few weeks later, a piece of an
old clothes hanger penetrated another tire.
About a month later I had a massive blowout, so bad that the tread came
entirely loose and was flapping around hitting my rear fender. I still have
black
marks and scratches on the car from the incident, in addition to a broken
antenna. Oh, this was a fairly new tire.
I always carry a spare, if not two, and I always carry all the equipment
necessary to change the tire on the road, in addition to a flashlight, and even
an
electric pump that I can plug into the cigarette lighter. Yes, flat or blown
tires happens to me that often, and I've been driving for over 20 years now.
And no, I don't drive on tires until they are threadbare, and no I don't buy
tires from a junkyard.
Sam
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> you are cursed i think
> i haven't had a puncture in any sort of vehicle in 7 years
>
My last flat tore off several feet of tread at 60mph, which wrecked havoc
against the side of our ICE RAV4, but even that was 3 years (and 1
deductable)ago. In the past I have installed used tires to match the wear of
the other 3 and never had issue with flats. The Ranger EV had one flat, but
that AAA Premium service came in handy for the 30+ mile tow home, since I, too,
had removed the spare [Ford eliminated its normal under-truck storage and put
the full-sized spare smack dab in the middle of the bed!]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< The Magura throttle on my GoBig scooter was smashed in shipping. I got a
good look at the internals. The pot is a standard off-the-shelf unit that
should be available from DigiKey or equiv. I'm thinking it was a Potter &
Brumfield. As I recall, you can remove that single screw and withdraw the
pot from the socket it fits in. It should have markings.
John >>
aww, great...I threw it out a week ago! And, yes, an allen-head screw holds it
in. Well, I can measure the housing width and length and search the pot
listings for a similar-sized 5kohm equivalent. Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> Hi,
>
> > Points... if the yellow LED is ON it means the controller is WOT,
> > infact it's locking the FETs on at 100% pwm, and just kicking them off
> > evey 1/2 second to make sure the amps are still sane.
>
> The yellow WOT throttle LED on my Raptor *NEVER* comes on, even with the
> throttle to the floor (regardless of gear). According to the manual,
> this indicates that the throttle IS in current limit mode.
This is the problem when I don't follow the whole thread.
OK... NOW I think it's the MOTOR.
Weather the Yellow comes on or not MAKES a rather BIG difference in E-mail
diagnosiss.
Most of us can actually launch in 4th gear.... Yes it's hard on things,
but it does work.
The fact that you can't and the controller is ALWAYS in some form of current
limit, Says you have some issues in the motor loop.
The low amps in 2nd ands only 270 in 3rd is just not right...the higher
gears should make the controller give maximum current not dropping current.
This is your problem area. You are locking the controller into it's maximun
output amps, Going up in gears just drops the RPM and lugs the motor even
harder.
I really would like to know your motor amperage while you are doing this. If
it's many more than the battery side, you have a motor problem.
You could actually see 2 to 3 times the battery amperage in the motor loop.
How hot does the motor get??
Hey I had a issue alot like this, On John Lussmyer's Sparrow. I could
barley get it up my hill to the drive way. I jacked the drive tire up, and
hooked a clamp on amp meter onto one of the motor leads, OK No load... not
much RPM. AND 250 AMPS! OH SH--!
No load and a good speed should be like 25 to 50 amps...Motor amps, almost
nothing battery amps.
OK now try the 12 volt trick. Just 12 volts across the motor, no controller,
just contactor drive it or even jumper cable it. You should get a 60 to 100
amp in rush wind up, then it drops to 30 amps free spin.
50 to 60 amps with tranny and flywheel and 12 volts is OK.. 100s of amps and
very little RPM says you have a sick motor.
Something is not right with our EV... Thats for sure.
>
> There has only been two times ever that the yellow led has lit during
> driving. Both times the batteries were very low, and I was flooring it
> in first gear and getting nowhere fast (I was basically out of power and
> I luckily just barely reached my destination).
>
> And I do believe my throttle setting is correct on the Raptor, as with
> the motor DISCONNECTED, I DO get the yellow LED to light up when I floor
> the throttle.
>
> > But it's NOT the controller folks
This sounds like it's still not the controller..
>
> The only reason why I doubt this controller at times is because it has
> had previous problems. Luckily, once I replaced the two connectors
> between the power board and control board, I solved my cutting-out
> problem (after being stranded with a NON-working controller on the side
> of the road three times). After the new connectors were installed I did
> notice the controller being A LOT more responsive, and it hasn't cut-out
> since.
>
> > First Nick, put the Shunt in the main Battery Negative lead. STomp on
> > it, record the max amps
>
> That is where the shunt is installed. In 1st gear, on warm batteries, I
> can and do get it to go just up to 400 amps, or peg (if I'm lucky). In
> 2nd gear, I can usually get it around 360 amps (maybe just a bit more if
> I'm lucky). 3rd gear is the impossible one. I've never seen more than
> about 270 battery amps when flooring it. Keep in mind again that the
> yellow LED has NEVER come on under these conditions.
>
> Also, getting 400 amps in 1st gear doesn't help me much as I can't go
> much past 25mph before the motor is at 5000 rpms. I really need the
> power in 2nd and in 3rd gear, where I rarely am seeing it.
>
> I will continue to monitor all of this...
>
> > Red beastie had a 450 amp Raptor and 120 volts and was
> > 5200 lbs, and had acceptable power levels. Not real good, but it could
get
> > to 70 mph, with about a minute of time.
>
> This just seems to further indicate that I have a real problem with my
> setup. I basically at this point CANNOT top ~59mph on a flat surface
> (less on any sort of grade), and can just barely hold 45mph going up
> longer/steeper hills. and It takes me a lot of time to get up to 55mph.
> This in a vehicle that I believe to be around 4000lbs.
>
> > Starting in 4th with a 120 volt pack looking at the current in the
> > motor + to the B- loop you should see 600 amps or more until the
> > yellow comes on then 600 or less.
>
> I absolutely CANNOT start in 4th gear (not even in 3rd). I floor it and
> I might just barely inch forward on flat surface. Sometimes the motor
> goes into a stall condition (I'm putting in power but not moving). Still
> no yellow LED.
Of course you can't... If the motor is shorted or has a few brushes missing
of not in contact with the comm.
Just remember, If I did this to Goldie, I have a very good chance of
twisting off the input shaft....
>
> Thanks for taking the time to comment. I'm sorry if I'm repeating
> myself, but I'm puzzled and haven't made been able to make much forward
> progress with this "issue."
>
> I am still working on getting some of Lee's battery bride LEDs hooked up
> (If I can ever find somebody who sells >1/2 watt 1% resistors), and I'm
> probably going to get a 1000 amp ammeter and shunt to place in the motor
> loop so I can monitor it (though I'm not too eager about buying another
> Westach product).
Nick, Get a 500 amp 50 Mv Shunt...it's about $30 buck from Rod at EVparts.
Go to Radio Shack, get there PC compatable meter, the good one, it's about
$80 bucks
Set the meter to Millivolts. one Mv is 1 amp.
Wire the shunt back to the meter, tape all your connections. Now go for a
ride and get us some numbers.
>
> Thanks again for everyone's input in this unfolding story about the
> little Jeep EV that could :-)
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 22:09, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > OK... I have been staying out of this because I have my own fish to fry.
> >
> > BUT
> > Points... if the yellow LED is ON it means the controller is WOT, infact
> > it's locking the FETs on at 100% pwm, and just kicking them off evey 1/2
> > second to make sure the amps are still sane.
> >
> > If the Yellow led is on, The controller is NOT doing current
multipliction,
> > the batteries are just locked onto the motor leads. AND that's all you
get.
> > I limp home and recharge when this happens.....
> >
> > So... weak batteries, Huge battery cable losses, bad or fried motor
> > brushes... All sorts of things. But it's NOT the controller folks.
> >
> > First Nick, put the Shunt in the main Battery Negative lead. STomp on
it,
> > record the max amps. Getting the complete pack voltage at this point
tells
> > you Everything you need to know.
> > First select first gear, then apply as much foot as you dare.... If your
> > voltage on the controller B+ to B- drops like a rock, then you have
battery
> > and cabling issues. If the voltage stays the same and the amps don't go
> > anywhere, then your motor is just not drawing any amps. Look for real
issues
> > in the motor.
> >
> > And remember that Red beastie had a 450 amp Raptor and 120 volts and was
> > 5200 lbs, and had acceptable power levels. Not real good, but it could
get
> > to 70 mph, with about a minute of time. With a Raptor 1200 in her we
could
> > fry any and all the contactors.....Been there done that got the Flu
doing
> > it...
> >
> > Starting in 4th with a 120 volt pack looking at the current in the motor
+
> > to the B- loop you should see 600 amps or more until the yellow comes on
> > then 600 or less.
> > In fact if you ARE looking at motor amps and see anything over 750 amps
GET
> > OFF it!!! Just to keep the diodes in the non vapor phase.
> > Don't do the high gear full amps launches if you don't have to. Use the
> > lowest gear and the highest motor RPM you can stand.
> > Yes a good Raptor 600 will peg a 500 amp gage without much fuss or
effort.
> > If... the motor is up to it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:05 PM
> > Subject: RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> >
> >
> > > > Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's something which I've wondered about for a while:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a Raptor 600 controller, on which I have the
> > > > > potentiometer for current limit turned all the way up
> > > > > (max current). I have a 0-400 amp ammeter on the battery
> > > > > side of the controller, with the shunt inserted between
> > > > > the controller/motor (-) buss bar and the (-) contactor.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > My biggest problem is that my acceleration in the higher
> > > > > gears is horrible because I can't seem to pull enough
> > > > > current from the batteries. I realize that this is
> > > > > probably because the Raptor is hitting it's max output
> > > > > of 600 motor amps and is going into current limit as the
> > > > > LEDs indicate (In fact, according to the LEDs, my
> > > > > controller is always in current limit when I floor it, no
> > > > > matter what gear).
> > >
> > > I'm quite late jumping in here, but something that has been bugging me
> > > that nobody has addressed is why Nick is getting such pitiful current
> > > from his controller in any case.
> > >
> > > That is, the DCP Raptor 600 is limited to a maximum of 600 *battery*
> > > amps, not motor amps. Motor/freewheel amps are "unlimited" (~900A).
> > > The current limit adjust allows the battery current limit to be
adjusted
> > > from 50-600A.
> > >
> > > Nick has a 400A shunt monitoring the battery current and says he has
the
> > > battery current limit cranked all the way up, yet he isn't able to peg
> > > his ammeter (ever?), even though the Raptor has its yellow LED lit
> > > (which apparently indicates that it is in current limit).
> > >
> > > So, why isn't Nick seeing a solid 600A (or at least a pegged 400A
meter)
> > > for at least the first few seconds when he floorboards the throttle
> > > while the controller is cold? I could understand thermal cutback
> > > limiting him once the controller warms up, but surely he ought to be
> > > able to see 600 battery amps at least briefly.
> > >
> > > If he is not pegging his 400A meter, then he's getting less than 2/3
of
> > > the power that his controller is capable of, which at low RPM means
less
> > > than 2/3 of the torque.
> > >
> > > 600 motor amps is Curtis level performance; the DCP controller are
> > > supposed to do a lot better than this...
> > >
> > > Anybody more intimately familiar with the DCP controllers care to
> > > explain this one?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you made your point Roger...
The Thread was.....
Can you get 500 watt hours from a Yt, Yup I guess so.
Can you get this 500 watts in a EV under real multi hundred amp loads....
NOPE!
The point of independant testing is to find our what they do under realist
loads that we may encounter in on road traction EV applications.
That's why I rarely do sub 500 watt runs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:38 PM
Subject: RE: Sealed PbA battery Options
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Roger...
> > I have never see 500 watt hours for a YTs, even at
> > 120 Deg F case temps and 500 watt loads. This is where doing
> > real data testing helps.
>
> If you're suggesting that I haven't done real testing, you're sorely
> mistaken Rich.
>
> I've dug up a couple test files at random and sent plots off to John
> Westlund. I'll send you a copy too, just for fun.
>
> For anyone else interested, here is a summary of these randomly selected
> results:
>
> YT#4
> average average
> discharge temperature
> cycle kWh Ah rate (A) deg.C deg.F
> 1 0.31 28.6 22.75 13.6 56.4
> 2 0.32 28.4 22.96 14.5 57.8
> 3 0.37 32.9 23.09 14.5 58.1
> 4 0.44 38.6 23.13 15.2 59.4
>
> YT#10:
> average average
> discharge temperature
> cycle kWh Ah rate (A) deg.C deg.F
> 1 0.57 50.0 23.06 18.0 64.4
> 2 0.52 45.2 23.21 17.5 63.5
> 3 0.50 42.9 23.24 17.3 63.1
> 4 0.51 44.7 23.10 18.0 64.4
> 5 0.51 44.1 23.20 18.1 64.6
>
> > I certialy can not turst the spec sheets, and I only
> > trust my own test gear. The Standard test for me is two loads
> > at 1500 watts, and 110 amps of recharge, then the last test
> > while hot is at 750 watts. This is the bench mark that I am
> > using.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, just don't confuse it with what a YT is rated
> for and capable of delivering at a constant 25A load. 750W is
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; obviously these test results will not match up with the
> manufacturer's reserve capacity spec'd at 25A constant current.
>
> I don't trust the manufacturer's Ah specs since I don't know the test
> conditions they use, but the reserve capacity test conditions are stated
> and are those decreed by BCI, so that is a spec I *expect* the batteries
> to meet when I reproduce the test conditions.
>
> My test results certainly indicate that the Optima reserve capacity spec
> is realistic.
>
> > I record Kwhr off my Link 2000R and Heart Freedom 25.
>
> These tests were logged using an RS232 E-meter.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
>
> From: "Rich Rudman"
>
> > John Bryan, always had number that I felt were a bit too good.
>
> And I always thought my numbers were embarrasingly bad!
> Hey Rich, you beat me in a side by side race at Woodburn....
>
> Here's the numbers from Aug 29th 1998, I was in the left lane,
> you were in the right.
>
> Ghia Goldie
>
> R/T .623 .842 Rich was
sleeping...
> 60' 2.415 2.9 Goldie was
doing a LOT of tire smoke
> 330 7.518 7.710 Looks like I
got hooked up finally
> 1/8 11.865 11.882 More Hp is
finally starting to show up
> MPH 55.46 58.7 Yup I am still
pulling
> 1000 15.742 15.528
> 1/4 19.067 18.649
> MPH 67.52 71.62 This is slow.....
I bet I still had the Stock XP-1263 on board.
>
> I've always thought those were numbers best kept to myself,
> they don't seem particularly good to me. The only reason my
> numbers are so poor though, is that I'm limited to 380 battery amps.
>
> John
> Range Dude, not power. With only 380 battery to my 1200 It should have
been a LOT better on my side.
>
Stuff my Raptor 1200 in that thing, and dial in about 5 Deg more brush
timing, and you would be a hand full of seconds faster.
Six years ago..... I am feeling OLD.......So is Goldie...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to a discussion in the VisforVoltage forum
(http://visforvoltage.com/forums , Batteries section), price is $750 for ONE
12V/40Ah UCharge module.
Regards, Jens
>From: "Ed Rowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 3:15 am
>Subject: Li-Ion Batteries
>[...]
>The battery manufacturer, Valence Technology Inc. has a web page
>at http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
>They have some discharge curves comparing their product to lead
>acid but I didn't see any prices so if you are interested, guess you
>have to give them a call.
>Ed Rowan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:14 PM 12/3/2004, you wrote:
Nick, Get a 500 amp 50 Mv Shunt...it's about $30 buck from Rod at EVparts.
Go to Radio Shack, get there PC compatable meter, the good one, it's about
$80 bucks
Set the meter to Millivolts. one Mv is 1 amp.
In this case, 1mv is 10 Amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<If you can send me a picture and some kind of measurement, specs etc, I
will be glad to look in my bags and bales of pot(s) and see if I can find
you one. David Chapman.>>
Sorry, no pictures available, but the 5K pot appears to be 12mm wide x 6mm long,
then a 7mm x 7mm section, then a 4mm-thick shaft at least 3mm long. [a 12mm
thick x 13mm long pot would fit without using the collar] Time for me to start
scrounging (or else pay for a whole new Magura!).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found the pot on DigiKey by it's dimensions: a Clarostat 392JA502 (or 392JA5K),
but they require a minimum order of several hundred since it is not a
normally-stocked item. At 13 cents each, seems a cheap fix...if I can find
*one* (OK, maybe 5, if I keep damaging things)!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am not finding the 13 cent part. Digikey lists the 392JA502 and 392JA5K
for $7.58 in quantities of 60. Newark lists the 392JA5K for $9.06 for
quantities of 1 if you don't need 60.
Keith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Found the pot on DigiKey by it's dimensions: a Clarostat 392JA502 (or
> 392JA5K),
> but they require a minimum order of several hundred since it is not a
> normally-stocked item. At 13 cents each, seems a cheap fix...if I can find
> *one* (OK, maybe 5, if I keep damaging things)!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They usually carry sample stock, if not try
www.newark.com , http://www.future-active.com
or www.arrow.com.
Tell them your working on a 'government project' and
you need 2 sample pieces.
You'll get them for free!
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Found the pot on DigiKey by it's dimensions: a
> Clarostat 392JA502 (or 392JA5K),
> but they require a minimum order of several hundred
> since it is not a
> normally-stocked item. At 13 cents each, seems a
> cheap fix...if I can find
> *one* (OK, maybe 5, if I keep damaging things)!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> use your main contactors to connect the battery
> directly to your motor.
Isn't this how contactors get welded "on"? It seems to me that if my
motor is pulling too much current they could weld together when making
the circuit, if I'm using my normal pack voltage, that is. Or am I
wrong?
Thanks,
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
----------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 07:46, Markus L wrote:
> Nick,
>
> this is just a thought from a novice on the following statement
> you made:
>
> > I absolutely CANNOT start in 4th gear (not even in 3rd). I
> > floor it and
> > I might just barely inch forward on flat surface. Sometimes the motor
> > goes into a stall condition (I'm putting in power but not
> > moving). Still
> > no yellow LED.
>
> What if you bypass (for testing) your controller and use your
> main contactors to connect the battery directly to your motor.
> Now try to start in 3rd or 4th gear. To be safe you may
> try this first with only part of your pack connected. In a sense
> you would emulate a contactor controller and see if your
> batteries can deliver the current that your motor demands.
>
> You could possibly built a cheapo resistor in there that
> a second contactor would bypass to make smoother starts.
>
> Markus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you own or lease a Ford Ranger EV, please contact me off list.
I am interested in how many Ranger EVs are out there, and until when.
Thanks.
Marc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> How hot does the motor get??
I have noticed that the motor seems to get hot -- in opinion too hot.
Even after a shorter (~6 mile drive), the motor shaft and both casing
ends are too hot to touch. I'll try to get an actual temp. reading from
my multimeter (which has a temp. probe)...
Now that I think about it, I have also noticed sort of a "burning
brakes" smell coming from the motor after longer (~10+ mile) trips. This
is especially noticeable after trips which have included hills or
inclines, which have included me pulling up to 380 amps on the battery
side. This smell is definitely NOT the front brakes. I've had those
fixed and they no longer smell. The smell comes straight up from the
motor. I thought at first that it might be due to the motor still being
relatively new, but now that I've got 468.4 EV miles on the Jeep (I keep
a good log), I can't imagine that being the case.
> No load and a good speed should be like 25 to 50 amps...Motor amps,
> almost nothing battery amps.
I just hooked back up the Tachometer sensor (which works ok when it
feels like it), and did a little test. With the transmission in neutral,
the motor pulls the following currents (give or take a few amps):
RPM Current drawn (battery side current)
1000 8 amps
2000 15 amps
3000 20 amps
4000 40 amps
These are BATTERY SIDE current readings, with NO load on the motor
except for the spinning aluminum flywheel/hub, clutch disc, and pressure
plate. I'm guessing that this is way too much current being pulled if
I'm supposed to see no more than 50 motor amps?
I'll try to get my 400 amp shunt in the motor loop this weekend if I
have some spare cables around here with eyelets on them... otherwise
I'll have to order some more and wait...
Last questions... If this is a motor problem, I'm assuming it could be
repaired (at a motor shop)? Are motors like this usually expensive to
repair?
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 14:14, Rich Rudman wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > > Points... if the yellow LED is ON it means the controller is WOT,
> > > infact it's locking the FETs on at 100% pwm, and just kicking them off
> > > evey 1/2 second to make sure the amps are still sane.
> >
> > The yellow WOT throttle LED on my Raptor *NEVER* comes on, even with the
> > throttle to the floor (regardless of gear). According to the manual,
> > this indicates that the throttle IS in current limit mode.
> This is the problem when I don't follow the whole thread.
> OK... NOW I think it's the MOTOR.
> Weather the Yellow comes on or not MAKES a rather BIG difference in E-mail
> diagnosiss.
> Most of us can actually launch in 4th gear.... Yes it's hard on things,
> but it does work.
> The fact that you can't and the controller is ALWAYS in some form of current
> limit, Says you have some issues in the motor loop.
> The low amps in 2nd ands only 270 in 3rd is just not right...the higher
> gears should make the controller give maximum current not dropping current.
> This is your problem area. You are locking the controller into it's maximun
> output amps, Going up in gears just drops the RPM and lugs the motor even
> harder.
> I really would like to know your motor amperage while you are doing this. If
> it's many more than the battery side, you have a motor problem.
> You could actually see 2 to 3 times the battery amperage in the motor loop.
> How hot does the motor get??
> Hey I had a issue alot like this, On John Lussmyer's Sparrow. I could
> barley get it up my hill to the drive way. I jacked the drive tire up, and
> hooked a clamp on amp meter onto one of the motor leads, OK No load... not
> much RPM. AND 250 AMPS! OH SH--!
>
> No load and a good speed should be like 25 to 50 amps...Motor amps, almost
> nothing battery amps.
> OK now try the 12 volt trick. Just 12 volts across the motor, no controller,
> just contactor drive it or even jumper cable it. You should get a 60 to 100
> amp in rush wind up, then it drops to 30 amps free spin.
> 50 to 60 amps with tranny and flywheel and 12 volts is OK.. 100s of amps and
> very little RPM says you have a sick motor.
> Something is not right with our EV... Thats for sure.
>
>
> >
> > There has only been two times ever that the yellow led has lit during
> > driving. Both times the batteries were very low, and I was flooring it
> > in first gear and getting nowhere fast (I was basically out of power and
> > I luckily just barely reached my destination).
> >
> > And I do believe my throttle setting is correct on the Raptor, as with
> > the motor DISCONNECTED, I DO get the yellow LED to light up when I floor
> > the throttle.
> >
> > > But it's NOT the controller folks
> This sounds like it's still not the controller..
>
> >
> > The only reason why I doubt this controller at times is because it has
> > had previous problems. Luckily, once I replaced the two connectors
> > between the power board and control board, I solved my cutting-out
> > problem (after being stranded with a NON-working controller on the side
> > of the road three times). After the new connectors were installed I did
> > notice the controller being A LOT more responsive, and it hasn't cut-out
> > since.
> >
> > > First Nick, put the Shunt in the main Battery Negative lead. STomp on
> > > it, record the max amps
> >
> > That is where the shunt is installed. In 1st gear, on warm batteries, I
> > can and do get it to go just up to 400 amps, or peg (if I'm lucky). In
> > 2nd gear, I can usually get it around 360 amps (maybe just a bit more if
> > I'm lucky). 3rd gear is the impossible one. I've never seen more than
> > about 270 battery amps when flooring it. Keep in mind again that the
> > yellow LED has NEVER come on under these conditions.
> >
> > Also, getting 400 amps in 1st gear doesn't help me much as I can't go
> > much past 25mph before the motor is at 5000 rpms. I really need the
> > power in 2nd and in 3rd gear, where I rarely am seeing it.
> >
> > I will continue to monitor all of this...
> >
> > > Red beastie had a 450 amp Raptor and 120 volts and was
> > > 5200 lbs, and had acceptable power levels. Not real good, but it could
> get
> > > to 70 mph, with about a minute of time.
> >
> > This just seems to further indicate that I have a real problem with my
> > setup. I basically at this point CANNOT top ~59mph on a flat surface
> > (less on any sort of grade), and can just barely hold 45mph going up
> > longer/steeper hills. and It takes me a lot of time to get up to 55mph.
> > This in a vehicle that I believe to be around 4000lbs.
> >
> > > Starting in 4th with a 120 volt pack looking at the current in the
> > > motor + to the B- loop you should see 600 amps or more until the
> > > yellow comes on then 600 or less.
> >
> > I absolutely CANNOT start in 4th gear (not even in 3rd). I floor it and
> > I might just barely inch forward on flat surface. Sometimes the motor
> > goes into a stall condition (I'm putting in power but not moving). Still
> > no yellow LED.
> Of course you can't... If the motor is shorted or has a few brushes missing
> of not in contact with the comm.
> Just remember, If I did this to Goldie, I have a very good chance of
> twisting off the input shaft....
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to comment. I'm sorry if I'm repeating
> > myself, but I'm puzzled and haven't made been able to make much forward
> > progress with this "issue."
> >
> > I am still working on getting some of Lee's battery bride LEDs hooked up
> > (If I can ever find somebody who sells >1/2 watt 1% resistors), and I'm
> > probably going to get a 1000 amp ammeter and shunt to place in the motor
> > loop so I can monitor it (though I'm not too eager about buying another
> > Westach product).
>
> Nick, Get a 500 amp 50 Mv Shunt...it's about $30 buck from Rod at EVparts.
> Go to Radio Shack, get there PC compatable meter, the good one, it's about
> $80 bucks
> Set the meter to Millivolts. one Mv is 1 amp.
>
>
> Wire the shunt back to the meter, tape all your connections. Now go for a
> ride and get us some numbers.
> >
> > Thanks again for everyone's input in this unfolding story about the
> > little Jeep EV that could :-)
> >
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 22:09, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > OK... I have been staying out of this because I have my own fish to fry.
> > >
> > > BUT
> > > Points... if the yellow LED is ON it means the controller is WOT, infact
> > > it's locking the FETs on at 100% pwm, and just kicking them off evey 1/2
> > > second to make sure the amps are still sane.
> > >
> > > If the Yellow led is on, The controller is NOT doing current
> multipliction,
> > > the batteries are just locked onto the motor leads. AND that's all you
> get.
> > > I limp home and recharge when this happens.....
> > >
> > > So... weak batteries, Huge battery cable losses, bad or fried motor
> > > brushes... All sorts of things. But it's NOT the controller folks.
> > >
> > > First Nick, put the Shunt in the main Battery Negative lead. STomp on
> it,
> > > record the max amps. Getting the complete pack voltage at this point
> tells
> > > you Everything you need to know.
> > > First select first gear, then apply as much foot as you dare.... If your
> > > voltage on the controller B+ to B- drops like a rock, then you have
> battery
> > > and cabling issues. If the voltage stays the same and the amps don't go
> > > anywhere, then your motor is just not drawing any amps. Look for real
> issues
> > > in the motor.
> > >
> > > And remember that Red beastie had a 450 amp Raptor and 120 volts and was
> > > 5200 lbs, and had acceptable power levels. Not real good, but it could
> get
> > > to 70 mph, with about a minute of time. With a Raptor 1200 in her we
> could
> > > fry any and all the contactors.....Been there done that got the Flu
> doing
> > > it...
> > >
> > > Starting in 4th with a 120 volt pack looking at the current in the motor
> +
> > > to the B- loop you should see 600 amps or more until the yellow comes on
> > > then 600 or less.
> > > In fact if you ARE looking at motor amps and see anything over 750 amps
> GET
> > > OFF it!!! Just to keep the diodes in the non vapor phase.
> > > Don't do the high gear full amps launches if you don't have to. Use the
> > > lowest gear and the highest motor RPM you can stand.
> > > Yes a good Raptor 600 will peg a 500 amp gage without much fuss or
> effort.
> > > If... the motor is up to it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:05 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's something which I've wondered about for a while:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a Raptor 600 controller, on which I have the
> > > > > > potentiometer for current limit turned all the way up
> > > > > > (max current). I have a 0-400 amp ammeter on the battery
> > > > > > side of the controller, with the shunt inserted between
> > > > > > the controller/motor (-) buss bar and the (-) contactor.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > My biggest problem is that my acceleration in the higher
> > > > > > gears is horrible because I can't seem to pull enough
> > > > > > current from the batteries. I realize that this is
> > > > > > probably because the Raptor is hitting it's max output
> > > > > > of 600 motor amps and is going into current limit as the
> > > > > > LEDs indicate (In fact, according to the LEDs, my
> > > > > > controller is always in current limit when I floor it, no
> > > > > > matter what gear).
> > > >
> > > > I'm quite late jumping in here, but something that has been bugging me
> > > > that nobody has addressed is why Nick is getting such pitiful current
> > > > from his controller in any case.
> > > >
> > > > That is, the DCP Raptor 600 is limited to a maximum of 600 *battery*
> > > > amps, not motor amps. Motor/freewheel amps are "unlimited" (~900A).
> > > > The current limit adjust allows the battery current limit to be
> adjusted
> > > > from 50-600A.
> > > >
> > > > Nick has a 400A shunt monitoring the battery current and says he has
> the
> > > > battery current limit cranked all the way up, yet he isn't able to peg
> > > > his ammeter (ever?), even though the Raptor has its yellow LED lit
> > > > (which apparently indicates that it is in current limit).
> > > >
> > > > So, why isn't Nick seeing a solid 600A (or at least a pegged 400A
> meter)
> > > > for at least the first few seconds when he floorboards the throttle
> > > > while the controller is cold? I could understand thermal cutback
> > > > limiting him once the controller warms up, but surely he ought to be
> > > > able to see 600 battery amps at least briefly.
> > > >
> > > > If he is not pegging his 400A meter, then he's getting less than 2/3
> of
> > > > the power that his controller is capable of, which at low RPM means
> less
> > > > than 2/3 of the torque.
> > > >
> > > > 600 motor amps is Curtis level performance; the DCP controller are
> > > > supposed to do a lot better than this...
> > > >
> > > > Anybody more intimately familiar with the DCP controllers care to
> > > > explain this one?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Roger.
> > > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
At our monthly EV meeting everybody talks about how well or poorly
their EV's are doing on range. Some members claim to have great range and
efficiency but they can't prove it without damaging there battery pack and
having there car towed when it runs out of suds. So I put out a challenge to
the other club members to backup there claim with hard numbers on efficiency
because range is just how much lead you have on board and how efficiently
you use it.
So a special custom made award (that means homemade) will go to the club
member that has the most efficient on-road EV, and it will be passed around
to the member that can top the present holder of the award.
What would be a fair way to set-up this competition ?
What we came up with so far is the same e-meter and shunt set to some
generic battery settings and correct nominal voltage settings, and everybody
will drive the same 10 mile route as many times or as often as the want.
If anybody has any suggestions on a easy, fair, FUN way of doing this
competition we would welcome them.
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sit down, I don't want you to fall and hurt yourself when you laugh.....
1988 misubishi pu, all mods by me with every carol shelby book, a
machine shop, and 2 guys from the nissan race team for advice. lots of
testing on a skid-pad-- living the mantra "change only one thing at a
time". (well most the time.)
The brothers swan mentioned above and whose 510 sedan is in Fredd Puhn's
book "making your car handle" like to make points too, so they took a
front wheel drive honda civic into D prepared to the national title in
Salinas Kansas, just because people said front wheel drives can't be
compeditive. They are building a berkin lotus 7 replica now.
mods, brain strain time:
internal roll bar thru back window to bed, bed hammered flat to a plate
underneeth welded to frame
re-inforced frame to acomadate adjustable nascar rear sway bar.
Rear end was a 4.11 from a montero which I took .040 off halfs of diff
cage to push the limited slip to 125LB break away.
removed bumbers,spare, AC, exchanger, ductwork, etc. lost 800 lbs
replace engine with a 93 2.4, took 14 lbs or so off flywheel. from
carburated to fuel injected, replaced ALL wiring and computer ,fuel
lines and tank. electric fan.
Static timing advaced to add to computers wimpy advance for the freflow
exhaust and sonoco 104.
removed helper spring and installed lowereing blocks(mistake # 1) and
bolted front half of leafs togather, 4" away installed parallel radius
rods (poor mans 4bar link) made a panard rod.
all panard rods and radios rods were swedged alum with alum Aurora rod
ends for minimal weight gain. removed actuator on brake bias valve and
put adjuster screw on it.
Test after roll bar was halarious, it just cut donoughts, way to much
rear bar because frame stifness made things work, out of money so I went
to the wrecking yard and got a second stock front sway bar, cut the
spacers in half and mounted it on top the frame exatly parrallel to one
on bottom of frame.
short stiff springs up front(mistake #2) skips like stone on rougher tracks.
kyb's,Ferodo pads,redline oils 3degrees negative camber up front(to
compensate for bad geometry )
people went from laughing at me to claiming it was unfair, "trucks had
so much extra brakes than them."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
not off topic in one reguard. We are the few to uphold the image of the
eletric car as a practical and fun alternative. Being seen by the side
of the road alot might not help the cause "look martha another one of
those darn EV's, I'll never own one...." I can't use the excuse of
looseing the spare is for weight reduction (it weighs less the my
"other" spare tire :-( but I can see where the spare might be in the
way of a battery pack.
With that said, My driveing without a spare was in sunny california,
flat central valley and around town. The spare was reloaded for long trips.
Most of our conversions have short range and some parts of this country
have particulary lousy roads! No 1 best answer folks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
maybe I'm lucky, but I haven't had an on road flat
tire for several hundred thousand miles of driving
(I'm guessing about 300,000 miles and 20 years). I
have lived and worked in Ohio, Kentucky, North
Carolina, Arkansas and Illinios. The TEVan has a
spare, but I was only towed once, when the motor
control destroyed some IGBT's (a couple of months
ago). With this record I'm not too concerned about a
spare :-)
Rod
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> not off topic in one reguard. We are the few to
> uphold the image of the
> eletric car as a practical and fun alternative.
> Being seen by the side
> of the road alot might not help the cause "look
> martha another one of
> those darn EV's, I'll never own one...." I can't
> use the excuse of
> looseing the spare is for weight reduction (it
> weighs less the my
> "other" spare tire :-( but I can see where the
> spare might be in the
> way of a battery pack.
>
> With that said, My driveing without a spare was in
> sunny california,
> flat central valley and around town. The spare was
> reloaded for long trips.
> Most of our conversions have short range and some
> parts of this country
> have particulary lousy roads! No 1 best answer
> folks
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I am not finding the 13 cent part. Digikey lists the 392JA502 and 392JA5K
for $7.58 in quantities of 60. Newark lists the 392JA5K for $9.06 for
quantities of 1 if you don't need 60. >>
Misread the listing - $7.58 for "Standard Package" of 10 - still less than a
dollar.
--- End Message ---
