EV Digest 3994
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT: Oil Article In Nat'l Geog
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Air conditioning - dumb questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High current li-ions from Sony
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Bill Dube crimper URL
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Power steering...wahoo!!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Claimed TZero 1/4 mile time from ACP
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: High current li-ions from Sony
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Steer-by-wire, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Cool scooter kit, was Re: Cedric's bike
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) TS cell info
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Refining Hybrid truck ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC musings
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) wire cutting machine
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
FYI here is a link.
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0406/feature5/
It's inevitable. But just how soon will the vital fuel become so scarce
and expensive that we're forced to make hard choices about how we live?
Electro Automotive wrote:
>
> I don't mean to start any OT thread here about the politics of oil, but the
> cover story on the June National Geographic is called "The End of Cheap
> Oil". It gives some pretty compelling information showing that the peak of
> worldwide oil production is probably only a couple of decades away, and
> it's all downhill from there. I'm going to mine it for fact bites for
> promoting EV use.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you used a 1500 watt AC at 120 VAC from a inverter from a 12 volt deep
cell battery, the amp draw will be 150 amps at 12 volts.
You will need a alternator of 150 amps at 12 volts to run the inverter.
If you used the motor to turn the alternator, it will read about 8 more
motor amps.
Therefore, I did not go this route, because the inverter and alternator came
to about $2000.00. I used the main motor to drive the alternator, power
steering, power brakes, vacuum pump and AC on the same aluminum frame
mounting that is used on GMC diesel trucks.
These units are not normally on at the same time. The motor amps normally
run from 4 to 10 amps, when the motor is under power, and 0 amps when not
under power or at coast down.
Therefore I am doing some type of REGEN into the accessory drives and gives
me good braking similar to a engine compression. Can actually stop on a
slight grade with transmission in the 20:1 gear ratio which will hold the
car from rolling back down the grade.
I used to have a Honeywell motor generator that was power off the main
batteries, that provide all the 12 VDC power at 14.5 volts driving all these
accessories and charging the 12 Volt battery. It used about 30 battery amps
continuous.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Air conditioning - dumb questions
> <<This helps a lot in hot weather. Air conditioning is a *big* power user.
> Not surprisingly, auto air conditioners are not designed for efficiency.
> Home air conditioners are. So, one interesting route is to use a small
> home air conditioner, powered by an inverter.>>
>
> Lee, we talked about this at some length this summer. My ICE AC was dead,
> and I thought about trying to install a window unit in my car, perhaps
> sticking
> out of the backseat and venting into the trunk. Of course, the details
> are
> messier (how do you vent the trunk, yadda yadda), but screw details - I'm
> a big
> picture kinda guy :-)
>
> I didn't want to consider getting the auto AC fixed if it was something
> like
> a compressor, because 1) it would be majorly expensive, 2) it would only
> break
> again, as every auto AC I've ever had has broken, 3) I cannot
> maintain/repair
> such a system on my own, and would be at the mercy of expensive, ripoff,
> jerkoff mechanics, and 4) my car is a total piece of crap anyway.
>
> My thinking was, the electric window unit would solve these issues. As to
> 1,
> it might also be expensive for me to convert to window unit AC (inverters,
> HO
> alternators, etc). But once I do, and the window unit dies, I can chunk
> it
> and replace it with another wal-mart special for $100. Also, if I sell
> the car
> or if it dies, I can keep the inverter and window unit AC, and stick them
> in
> another car (cannibalization) or do something else with them. As to 2,
> see 1
> (cheap replacement - provided HO alternator, inverter, etc. don't break).
> As
> to 3, I can maintain/repair the system on my own - that
> maintainence/repair
> consisting of chunking a broken window unit and buying a new one for $100
> at
> wal-mart.
>
> Anyway, back to the point. My decision this summer ended up being to try
> the
> "3rd way." I took it in for a recharge, and dye insertion in the system.
> My
> thinking was, if by some miracle it was something cheap, like a leaky
> hose,
> I'd fork out the bucks to fix it no prob. But if it was the compressor,
> etc.
> then I'd go ahead with my window AC plan. Well, it cooled for a while,
> then
> leaked out after a few months, and they told me they couldn't find where
> the dye
> leaked, therefore they couldn't find where the freon leak was, and
> therefore
> they couldn't identify the problem, and therefore they wanted to repeat
> the
> whole process. I told them "no," and have decided to go through with said
> AC
> conversion - probably this spring before it gets real hot. Besides, it
> will
> give me a lot of "practice" for when I eventually do an EV conversion.
>
> Anyway, here are some questions for you, and a rough game plan for you to
> look at if you don't mind:
>
> 1) I presume I will need a HO alternator. Hopefully I can get one to
> replace
> the stock one exactly, with no other mods needed, or if not then perhaps I
> can send the stock one off somewhere to get modified or rewound "HO" so
> that it
> bolts right back in?
>
> 2) I presume I will need an inverter. The question is, can or should I
> hook
> the inverter up to the accessory battery? Or will I need another battery
> or
> batteries, connected to the HO alternator? My initial presumption was
> that
> hooking it up to the accessory bat would be just fine, because no net
> power would
> be sucked out of it. The alternator would supply the battery, while the
> battery supplied the inverter. But then it hit me that I really don't
> have a good
> enough understanding of this to make that kind of assumption. I'm now
> thinking that, counterintuitive to my thinking at least, all the current
> coming out
> of the battery and going into the inverter would in actuality count as
> "amp
> draw" from the battery itself, even though with my way of thinking it
> should not
> because the current is coming from the alternator (I have a strange way of
> thinking). And if it indeed counts as "amp draw," I've learned from this
> list
> that el-cheapo flooded starter batteries don't like a lot of amp draw...
> at
> least not for an extended period of time (see, dumb newbies can learn
> something
> from this list after all - miracle of miracles). But... thinking about it
> more, this should only be a problem if it is a series connection between
> alternator/battery/inverter, right? If we are talking about a parallel
> connection here
> (and more and more I'm thinking we are, with the alternator in parallel
> with
> the battery, in parallel with the inverter)... then wouldn't this be
> okay -
> connecting the inverter to the accessory battery, which is in essense
> wiring it
> in parallel with the battery and the alternator? Question: wire to
> accessory
> bat, or seperate battery or batteries? And if wire to accessory bat, is
> this
> a parallel connection (seems it would be) or series?
>
> 3) Is that essentially it for the "big picture?" An HO alternator,
> possibly
> a separate battery pack (or possibly not), an inverter, and an AC? And
> what
> do you think of my plan to mount this thing in the trunk, with the "cool
> air
> side" sticking into the car through the back seat? I figure at minimum
> I'd need
> to drill a water drain hole in the bottom of the trunk. In reality, I'll
> probably need to figure out how to do some venting back there, somehow.
> If I
> can't stick it in the trunk, I have no idea where I will stick it. It's a
> 93 (or
> thereabouts) Buick Regal.
>
> Thanks.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I look at the battery thing as something to live with, like New England
winters, til something better is invented, better batteries. AGM, and that
stuff STILL suffer the same things GC's do, lousy winter performance, the
Pukert thing. Bill Dube? You got yur ears on? How's the Wabbit with the
Saft Nicads doing?Not affected by Denvers's cold winter?
NiCads are not seriously effected by cold weather. By design or
happenstance the plateau of the capacity curve straddles the range of
temperature you will see over all the seasons. The curve is pretty flat so
you really don't see a change in capacity with temperature.
Of course, running the heater takes a bite out of the range.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:49 AM 12/31/2004, you wrote:
I happened across a press release from Sony about li-ions coming out in
January
- check out the power density:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200412/04-060E/
If you can't tell, I'm looking at the 26650VT cells, which have a maximum
output
of 50A (20C). At 90gm, that's twice as much as the G8 cells of the same
capacity, but the wt/gm is better than li-polys. A series/parallel (2000
cells!) could max out a 1K Zilla in a 400# pack; it's nothing like the Bolders
fueling the Killacycle, but perhaps useful hybridized with another pack.
Looking at the specs, these Li-Ion cells should put out something
around 1400 W/kg. This is quite a bit better than any available AGM. It
would be a little less than a HP per pound. Not too shabby. The energy
density looks to be close to 100 Whr/kg. This would be about 3 times the
range of a lead-acid pack of the same weight.
Very nice battery for a hot street machine.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Bill Dube crimper instructions can be found here:
http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm
Plan on some more detailed pictures of the construction process on my
crimper in the next three or four years :) or sooner hopefully. If you
need any specifics, let me know. I just finished all my crimping
today. I'm so glad I had the crimper.
Hi Ryan,
Is this the only page? I see no link...
Was the 13mm socket for standard batt. connector (for #4 wire?)
2/0 Quick-Connect (Orange stripe)
I mean what is the outside diameter of the lug crimped with this tool.
What kind of bolt cutter was used (5/8" bolt cutter or? ...)
Get a big one at the flea market. Four foot handles is best.
Despite the crimped lug pict. which seems round, the outside of the
crimped lug must look like inside the six pan socket, yes?
Yes
Also are 3 pans of the socket used on each jaw?
Yes. You round the cut edge so that it doesn't cut into the lug,
but slides smoothly over the sides.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone, and hapy new year!
John, that forklift sounds awesome! I can't wait to see pictures of the
finished product.
I just took my first run in the 200sx with power steering. It was
great. I have been frustrated by the PS for awhile, wishing the 200sx
never had had it. I probably would have driven it for awhile without,
but the state inspection requires the PS to be working if the vehicle
originally had it.
I took the advice of several list members to use the Toyota MR2 pump.
After having a new fitting put on the existing power steering hose,
things went together very nicely.
When I first turned the pump on, I thought there was a problem with my
wiring - I couldn't hear it over my blower and vacuum pump. I put my
hand on the power steering pump to see if I could feel it running. I
couldn't. Hmm...I turned off my motor blower, and then I could hear a
whine. When I started turning the steering wheel, it made a more
noticeable whine, but certainly no worse than the original power
steering pump. I was very impressed. Altogether, the 200sx is quieter
than it was with an ICE. Much quieter with the vacuum pump off. I need
some better rubber mounts to take out some of the vibration noises.
I'm loving the EV! The only thing that has been a reality check is the
range. With only 12 Orbitals, my range in the 20-30 degree weather
seems to top out at about 6 miles. That gets me to all the necessary
places I need to go, but limits me a bit more than I thought it would.
Oh well. I look forward to a bit more range in the summer. Maybe 10 miles?
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
run in the 80's getting 156 MPG doing a 55 MPH run
from LA to San Francisco.
This is not as good as the 500mph economny runs sponsered by Craig Vetter.
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html
If electric power was used 300 pounds of battery would give you 250 miles
range if you say 600 pounds of lead equals a gallon of gas. Lawrence
Rhodes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Jan 2005 at 17:14, Charles Whalen wrote:
> Even corporations can't justify paying prices like
> that, so I wouldn't expect to see that car in use by corporate fleets, much
> less ever at consumer retail!
Easy there, Charles, you're about to hyperventilate. <g>
I'm not a Saft employee or manager, but I'd guess that these are hand-built
prototypes. The labor that goes into them isn't Chinese teenagers paid 50
cent an hour, probably not even $20 an hour union labor from the EU. Who
knows, maybe they're built by $100 an hour engineers.
The price probably also includes amortization of the development costs over
a few hundred units, perhaps a few thousand at most. Should a potential
customer consider making a sufficiently large commitment, the price per unit
might well fall quite a bit. But again I'm just speculating.
When you think about it, this isn't that much different from the very few
astronomically expensive fool cell vehicles that the big automakers have
built for prototype service here. Some of them have been sold to
institutions and goverments, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Certainly there are those who disagree, but some people, though not many in
the US these days, believe that one of the jobs of government is to
patronize and even subsidize businesses that are trying to develop products
that accomplish some kind of (at least perceived) social good.
Business has to mind its bottom line. This is especially true today with
the prevelance of institutional investors who demand immediate return on
every investment. That's one reason that EV battery development has been so
maddeningly slow. The cost - demand problem keeps chasing its tail.
But suppose the Belgian government (to pick a country at random) buys ten or
twenty of these pricey EVs ($100,000 each?) fitted with advanced batteries
and puts them into daily service, maybe shuttling people around their
offices in different cities. This provides additional real-world use data
for the battery and EV manufacturers. In an ideal world it might also help
amortize some of the company's development costs, so that private customers
can have a more realistic price down the road.
This was part of what California was trying to do through the Braude
Initiative. The original idea, IIRC, was that the state would require the
automakers to produce EVs, and the state would buy them for its fleets.
Through their own purchases, and by subsidizing corporate fleet and even
private purchases, they hoped to reach that tipping point where the
production was sufficient for economy of scale to kick in. IIRC, at one
time there were extra incentives for NiMH batteries, because they believed
that among advanced batteries NiMH showed the best promise for quick
commercialization.
As we've seen, in the US (and perhaps elsewhere) there are all kinds of ways
to derail such a scheme. There's also a danger anywhere that unscrupulous
businesses will work the system to swallow up tax dollars and then not make
a good-faith effort to put the socially-positive products into production.
But we don't know any companies like that, do we? <g>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
you take.
-- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also great to use for working under your smaller cars. If you build a pair
of fork extensions from channel with a fixed and an adjustable pad on each
you can slip right in the side, catch a couple frame points and lift most
cars to a comfortable height just like a garage lift. Should safety chain
the mast so it can't tilt tho. Set a deal like this up for a buddy and he
has used it for years. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this on acpropulsion's site:
"The Li Ion tzero accelerates from 0-60 mph in 3.6 seconds
and covers the quarter mile in 12.2 seconds. Top speed is
102 mph (rpm limited). Estimated top speed with appropriate
gearing is 140 mph."
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_cars.htm
I wonder where they verified this at or if this was a
calculation done on paper. AC Propulsion is not a company
that has been known to distort or lie.
They should take it to a NEDRA event, because they have a
world record if what they claim is true. They need to prove
it.
Either way, I found that claim quite interesting.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
with winter temp generaly way under 0°C here (should be 32°F), i'm pleased
to agree :^) no or unsignificative difference with summer though my range is
reduced by electric heater...
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
>
> >
> > I look at the battery thing as something to live with, like New
England
> >winters, til something better is invented, better batteries. AGM, and
that
> >stuff STILL suffer the same things GC's do, lousy winter performance, the
> >Pukert thing. Bill Dube? You got yur ears on? How's the Wabbit with the
> >Saft Nicads doing?Not affected by Denvers's cold winter?
>
> NiCads are not seriously effected by cold weather. By design or
> happenstance the plateau of the capacity curve straddles the range of
> temperature you will see over all the seasons. The curve is pretty flat so
> you really don't see a change in capacity with temperature.
>
> Of course, running the heater takes a bite out of the range.
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
French Postal company signed to purchase 8 li-ion Cleanova II for real test
so we will see results this year, i hope to write about a success here.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
> On 1 Jan 2005 at 17:14, Charles Whalen wrote:
>
> > Even corporations can't justify paying prices like
> > that, so I wouldn't expect to see that car in use by corporate fleets,
much
> > less ever at consumer retail!
>
> Easy there, Charles, you're about to hyperventilate. <g>
>
> I'm not a Saft employee or manager, but I'd guess that these are
hand-built
> prototypes. The labor that goes into them isn't Chinese teenagers paid 50
> cent an hour, probably not even $20 an hour union labor from the EU. Who
> knows, maybe they're built by $100 an hour engineers.
>
> The price probably also includes amortization of the development costs
over
> a few hundred units, perhaps a few thousand at most. Should a potential
> customer consider making a sufficiently large commitment, the price per
unit
> might well fall quite a bit. But again I'm just speculating.
>
> When you think about it, this isn't that much different from the very few
> astronomically expensive fool cell vehicles that the big automakers have
> built for prototype service here. Some of them have been sold to
> institutions and goverments, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>
> Certainly there are those who disagree, but some people, though not many
in
> the US these days, believe that one of the jobs of government is to
> patronize and even subsidize businesses that are trying to develop
products
> that accomplish some kind of (at least perceived) social good.
>
> Business has to mind its bottom line. This is especially true today with
> the prevelance of institutional investors who demand immediate return on
> every investment. That's one reason that EV battery development has been
so
> maddeningly slow. The cost - demand problem keeps chasing its tail.
>
> But suppose the Belgian government (to pick a country at random) buys ten
or
> twenty of these pricey EVs ($100,000 each?) fitted with advanced batteries
> and puts them into daily service, maybe shuttling people around their
> offices in different cities. This provides additional real-world use data
> for the battery and EV manufacturers. In an ideal world it might also
help
> amortize some of the company's development costs, so that private
customers
> can have a more realistic price down the road.
>
> This was part of what California was trying to do through the Braude
> Initiative. The original idea, IIRC, was that the state would require the
> automakers to produce EVs, and the state would buy them for its fleets.
> Through their own purchases, and by subsidizing corporate fleet and even
> private purchases, they hoped to reach that tipping point where the
> production was sufficient for economy of scale to kick in. IIRC, at one
> time there were extra incentives for NiMH batteries, because they believed
> that among advanced batteries NiMH showed the best promise for quick
> commercialization.
>
> As we've seen, in the US (and perhaps elsewhere) there are all kinds of
ways
> to derail such a scheme. There's also a danger anywhere that unscrupulous
> businesses will work the system to swallow up tax dollars and then not
make
> a good-faith effort to put the socially-positive products into production.
> But we don't know any companies like that, do we? <g>
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
> you take.
>
> -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Looking at the specs, these Li-Ion cells should put out something
> around 1400 W/kg. This is quite a bit better than any available AGM. It
> would be a little less than a HP per pound. Not too shabby. The energy
> density looks to be close to 100 Whr/kg. This would be about 3 times the
> range of a lead-acid pack of the same weight.
>
Their low current version is twice the Whr/kg, but with the VT's, the question
is what are they using for nominal voltage, since voltage range (2.5V-4.1V) is
lower than (3.0V-4.2V) of an "average" li-ion? I guess we'll find out when
these get on the market somewhere! Next question is where and how much...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lever steering has been tried on motorcycles, but it feels wrong. The two
hand controls should move around a common pivot with an axis no more than
about 45 degrees from vertical.
Recumbent bikes
use underseat steering that is fairly similar to the lever idea, and while
I
haven't tried one, they look to have good stability.
I've built recumbent bikes myself and for comfort underseat steering is
definitely best (adds drag though). However, they are exactly as I described
above. Whatever angle and orientation the hands are at, there is a central
pivot, usually with a vertical axis. Recumbent trikes often do use levers,
but you don't have to balance them and so the 'feel' issue doesn't come into
it. When it comes to free leaning machines, 'feel' is everything. I've
ridden both the dreadful (Honda CG125) and the utterly sublime (any of my
Morinis).
Hack together a bicycle based proof of concept machine before you even think
of messing with the human-machine interface of a motorcycle or any other
free leaning machine.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
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> >> run in the 80's getting 156 MPG doing a 55 MPH run
> >> from LA to San Francisco.
> This is not as good as the 500mph economny runs sponsered by Craig Vetter.
> http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html
> If electric power was used 300 pounds of battery would give you 250 miles
> range if you say 600 pounds of lead equals a gallon of gas.
The Vetter link lead me to this:
http://www.defiantscooter.com/Pages/Body%20Styles/body_styls_torpedo.html
May not be ultraefficient, but it certainly is ultra-retro-cool! They only have
a price for the frame ($3750), so who knows when the body will be available. A
total wt of 590# "skinless" means the Sportster engine is pretty heavy - how
about a 6.7" AdvDC motor where the tranny sits, 156V Z1K above it, PF30
charger, and a motor bay filled with 190# of VT high current LiIons? 1000A peak
and 8kwh of electricity should be enough for most folks! Even a Curtis and lower
current lithiums would be enough for me.
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"Mucking around" seems the appropriate term - their numbers don't make a
lot of
sense: in terms of energy density, their LCP95AHA cells look the best at
2.4kg
for 95Ah, but why would losing 20% of the weight only cost you a loss of
5% of
capacity, especially when the LCP90AHA has another 5Ah drop but only 100gm
less
weight? Makes you dubious about performance until you can get some cells
independently tested.
They'd make sense if all the cell data was up on the site. Some cells are
tailored for higher energy density, some for higher power density, and some
for higher cycle life. It's the same for any chemistry. Some of the NiMH
cells used in hybrids have lower energy density than lead acid. That was
part of the problem with the 90Ah TS cells that some people bought.
To confuse matters even more TS have introduced some Lithium Cobalt cells
along side their Lithium Manganese line.
The reason that TS cells are so cheap is not so much labour costs (it's
meant to be a pretty well automated line) but more because they designed
them to be cheap. Their electrodes are much thicker than other production
cells (up to 20 times thicker!) and they're using the cheaper options for
many other ingredients. The result is 50% of the performance of other
Lithiums, but at 20% of the cost (or less!). The big difference is that you,
as an individual, can buy as many as you want, right now!
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
.
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I found some data on Li -ion cell construction. You must compromise when
you build a cell between capacity and power density.(kinda true for all
batteries, but more so for li-ion)
A high capacity li-ion 100ah cell(.5-1C) will have about 1400grams of
cathode material(the most expensive part) at $110/kg (Best quote so far,
i am still looking).
The high power(to 3C) cell will have 648 grams but larger qty of thinner
plates. The Distance the eletrons must travel to get to the collector
plate is the issue.
less active material means less Li ion intercallation or holding. Li
-ion doesn't change it's active materials chemical composition like lead
acid batteries do. Therfore it has higher cycle life.
until you overcharge,overheat,store at elevated temperature, or spring a
leak
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With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into the
diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data?
Would that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using a
meter with ascii out that is connected to a fuel injector that is
capable of measuring duty cycle or duration.
How about motorcycle chain to a motorcycle sprocket mounted on a "brake
drum extension". then mount the motor on the frame at the ceter of
rotation or use a tensioner.
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ok guys, its finally happened, John has cracked. he's been on the edge
for some years now, but I think this is where we draw the line. :)
sounds like an awesome project John. Have fun but don't get too side
tracked from the Datsun...
seth
On Jan 1, 2005, at 10:45 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
From John Westlund:
Congratz.
Forklift?
From Seth Murray:
If John has an EV with flooded cells...must be a forklift.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Oh gees you didn't buy a fork lift did you John?
Uh, umm, no...I didn't 'buy' a fork lift. I did, however, get one for
free! It's one of
five units just dropped out of service from a good sized fleet of
mixed Yale, Hyster,
Clark, and Crown forklifts I've been maintaining for one of our
customers. A few months
back they added six new Crown forklifts to their fleet, so 5 of their
oldest Hysters were
decommissioned. All were sold, except for my own Hyster J30BS, they
gave it to me for
free.
I had written:
...it weighs about 7000 lbs. and runs off of nearly 2000 lbs. of
flooded cells.
To be exact, my forklift has the biggest battery that will fit, the
2000 lb. model, and so
it tips the scales (literally) at 7200 lbs.
From Joe Smalley:
How high does it go?
Not too high as far as forklifts can go. It's not a triple or quad
mast, just a two stage
so this one only does 130 inches or about 11 feet, but it can lift
3900 lbs. that high!
That said, it's collapsed mast height barely clears my backyard EV
shop's door by 1/2
inch....and that's only if I tilt the mast forward all the way. Once
it's in the shop I
can return the mast to full vertical again and it clears everything
fine.
Got pictures?
Not yet. but they'll be coming. I'm taking before and after pictures,
as I've got
something 'special' planned for this thing.
From Lawrence Rhodes:
However it might come in handy if you don't crack the garage floor
with it.
Good point, and something that's possible with so much weight
concentrated in such a small
wheel base. It does, however, have the cogged variable surface type
solid tires instead of
the non-treaded type, so there's a bit more cushion with these. I was
allowed to cherry
pick parts from the 5 trucks being sent away, and so mine has pretty
nice condition tires
on it.
From Steven Ciciora:
Are you going to put a zilla in it? What is it's top speed?
From Seth Murray:
I give him about 24 hours before it's got twin Z2ks running off a
high voltage
pack of orbitals and a 12" sub for every 10 pounds of battery :)
Well......you are actually pretty close to getting this right! No twin
Zillas or high
voltage, but subwoofers...OH YEAH! The plan is turning this little
tough forklift into
'The Hyster From Hell'. I've got a demented plan that will be turning
this machine into
the world's only sound-off fork lift. A full and detailed renovation
is planned to return
it to a factory fresh appearance, with lots of custom touches, of
course. It will retain
its full functionality as a useful workhorse forklift, and its
everyday sound system,
though planned to be pretty potent and definitely Waylandesque, will
not get in the way or
detract from the functionality of the machine. It's the detachable
'Crowd Array' hydraulic
deploying enclosure that will be something else! With an 850 ahr 2000
lb. battery for a
massive power reserve, audio output power will be measured not in
watts, but in KWs! Yeah,
I'm going a bit nuts on this system. I've got several sponsor avenues
to pursue, but the
plan right now is a wall of woofers sporting perhaps as many as 20 12"
bass drivers, or
perhaps 15 15's, or whatever I end up with. The top part will be the
main sound stage that
will be a two piece affair that splits and deploys left and right
midwoofer, midrange, and
tweeter enclosures via hydraulic rams. The idea is similar to the way
satellites open up
once in space as they unfurl their photovoltiac panels. For crowd
pleasing music
reproduction, the 'Crowd Array' will be a fork-mounted device that can
be elevated,
tilted, side-shifted and with the hydraulic soundstage, angled and
directed just so.
The color theme will be yellow and black, true to the original Hyster
look. I'm hoping to
have amplifiers custom done in yellow against black crinkle finish.
This is all just in my head at the moment, but hey, that's how it goes
with me. I've been
fortunate to have strong backing from the car stereo companies for all
my other projects,
so I'm pretty sure this concept will become a reality. The everyday
sound system part will
be a piece of cake for me, but the Crowd Array will be quite a project.
As to the forklift's battery pack and drivetrain, it will all be stock
stuff, but of
course, all of it will be redone to my specs of detail and
craftsmanship. The GE EV100 SCR
controller drives twin 6.7 inch Prestolite series-wound traction
motors, and power comes
from a 24V, 850 ahr industrial battery. Enersys is already on board to
fully load test and
or rebuild the battery, and when returned to me, it will be as new
both in performance and
in cosmetic appearance. Though ugly right now, all cells are nicely
equalized and the
battery cranks out pretty close to its 850 ahrs @ the 6 hour rate. The
removable solid
plate steel controller - contactor panel cover will be cloned by Marko
Mongillo and I at
the metal fab shop, as the current one has been banged up pretty bad,
and a show only
clear Lexan cover will be made so the innards are viewable. Both drive
motors have been
rebuilt by my motor god friend Jim Husted, owner of Hi Torque Electric
(name of said
company inspired by me) out of Redmond, Oregon, so the drive motors
are like new. The
power steering pump motor as well as the hefty lift pump motor, are in
great condition,
too. I have a like new Exide industrial 24V charger that matches
beautifully to the
forklift.
I've had my eye on good 'ol #3 Hyster for a long time, as it's been
known this customer
was planning on getting rid of 5 of their trucks. The model J30BS is
small and compact,
yet powerful for its size, a perfect machine for me. Only the little
J30BS came with the
tidy and flat all metal dash fold, where the sanitary twin meter
arrangement of an hour
meter and an analog 'battery gauge' reside on either side of the
tilt-away steering
column. An Emeter will replace the analog gauge, and there's a nice
clear area to the left
dash side, where I can cut-in through the plate steel and make an
in-dash AM-FM-CD-DVD
player mount. I've always had a thing for hi tech machines mounted
against painted metal
dashes. Under the dash, the power unit's slanted vertical plate steel
is wide open for a
terrific mounting area for the amplifiers, too. Along with all the
recent new parts
installed, there's also a new seat that came with the deal.
What on earth are you going to _do_ with it?!?
Other than the above crazy stuff, my electric forklift will be used
for lots of stuff
around here. It will be real handy as a mobile hoist to effortlessly
lift the twin drive
motors out of the Zombie's engine bay as I prepare to modify things
for a new motor
orientation. It will also be used to help with my other 2005 project
machine, my '66
Datsun minitruck, to lift off its 450 lb. bed....etc. etc. Besides,
everybody
needs their own forklift :-)
My wife at first, went nuts when I brought this contraption home, but
she's mellowed out
now and accepts what I've done as just another Plasma Boy thing.
See Ya......John Wayland
--
'72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
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I have played with automotive AC for some time and wanted to talk about
some of the differnces that have occured
R134 has got less specific heat, in requires 20% more heat exchanger
area than R12 for the same amount of work.
It also makes it a little slower to get cold
In the late 80's (check memory on this) when they knew r134 was coming,
the automaufactures started using barrier hoses
Cars with these can be convertered without replacing the hoses, but LIke
mentioned, you must replace the dryer/oil trap and flush the system.
R134 is "criticaly charged" the amount has to be bang on (about 20% less
than r12 by weight for same system) too much and it acts like to little,
Charging by guages is, well kinda like charging nimh in thermal
runnaway, it will fool the charger.
Older cars will need the hoses replaced, DONT BUY THEM!, take your
existing hoses to the local distributer for industrial hydralic hoses
and such and have them re-hosed, it is way cheaper. The r134 molecule is
smaller and leaks thru the hose, everywhere, slowly and makes the dye
kit useless.
The best thing to do on an ICE AC that still works is to keep it R12,
Kragen sells R12 if you have a permit. It is all recycled and is around
$20/can
For EV's, we may consider the conversion to 134 as more viable, there
won't be the heat of the powerplant to fight off so the 20% loss might
be tolerable.
Switching to r134 allows us to use a post '95 compressor, these are
"scroll compressors" and take less energy than the piston type, Anyone
know how many watts to turn the newer style compressors?
I live in Fresno california, the radio stations around here count the
number of days over 100 in the summer(and the number of days till we go
without sunin the winter, fog central,in te winter)
AirC is a must. One of the things I plan is to have the Air started by
the remote control for the alarm, before I get to the vehicle, my
friends and coworkers will just "die" with envy.
HC air conditioners
Some cars have HC or hydrocarbon freon, it is a mix of propane and
isobutane, very cold,quick,compact system, but...explosive!
R12 systems that don't have enough umph can be "boosted" by adding up to
20% propane. R134 system cannot.
The god and the bad
Automotive AC systems are an environmental problem becasue the
compressor is driven externally and therfore some leakage is inevitable,
the good think about compressors for home use is they are hermetically
sealed and are relieved from power robbing shaft seal drag and leak a
lot less, they are however r22, although some are changing to
alternatives now.
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Is there such a machine that will cut 22 gauge wire to different specified
length from 3 to 6 inches? It doesn't have to be precision maybe with in
.050 inch. Thanks in advance for any info. Lawrence Rhodes..........
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Hi-
Walking under a load on a forklift is a bad thing. We once had a 3,000 lb.
panel
saw fall 4ft. before you could blink when the pressure hose to the lift side
of the
cylinder broke. garage lifts have mechanical dogs that prevent this.I don't
know
if newer forklifts have this function or not.
David Chapman wrote:
> Also great to use for working under your smaller cars. If you build a pair
> of fork extensions from channel with a fixed and an adjustable pad on each
> you can slip right in the side, catch a couple frame points and lift most
> cars to a comfortable height just like a garage lift. Should safety chain
> the mast so it can't tilt tho. Set a deal like this up for a buddy and he
> has used it for years. David Chapman.
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