EV Digest 4026
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Test run at 35 degrees below zero
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: save the EV Rangers
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Rush Limbaugh thinks EVs are Slow
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque rotation ?s
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Help Field excitation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Help Field excitation
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque rotation ?s
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) More info: EA Adapter plate & RPMs
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charging Trade-offs (was: The Amazing Little Hawkers.)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Ranger vigil changed!!
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: GM Sequel (joke)
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Rush Limbaugh thinks EVs are slow
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Coilovers for Ghia's, bugs, was Batts in Ghia's,
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) How to take action, EM, EV truck? (was: RE: save the EV Rangers)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Made my first run in my EV at -35 degrees. Yesterday it was 10 above and
than it drop a 45 degrees difference. Made runs before with my old
CableForm controller, which screams at you at this temperature. The old
charger also screams at this low temperture. I am wondering what they are
trying to say.
Before I left, the cab is preheated 30 minutes before I leave. The heater
power is transfer from the onboard invertors to outside commercial power.
The batteries so far do not need any heat. My battery boxes are double
insulated with 2 inches of poly foam with 4 inches of air space between the
foam layers. The battery temperature is at 65 degrees!
When I got into the EV, the inside temperature is above 80 degrees! The
Zillas did not make a sound. The motor and motor controller cooling fans
stay off. The Zilla water coolant pumps stay off. The whole car is frost
free and do not need any defrosting.
I normally drive to a Café which is about a mile run trip to my home. When
I got there, there were rolls of giant big rigs and large pickups with big
foot tires, mostly all running there engines.
I park next to one of these rigs, turn off all power systems and went into
the Café. When I came in, one of the guys ask me, DID YOUR CAR START THIS
MORNING, I said, I don't have that problem, because I remove my starter, do
not need it. Also I remove the fuel pump, water pump, radiator, and exhaust
systems. The reason some of these rigs do not start, is that they have all
this stuff.
Later, when I went out to my EV to come home, It fire up just fine, no
screaming sounds, no frost on the out side of the windshields, just only
some condensation on the inside.
When the inside of a vehicle is warmer than the outside and let standing for
about a hour, the windshield will lightly condensate. If you hit it with a
very hot heater defroster, it will than cause frost to build up on the out
side. So I adjust my temperature on the defroster to just a little above
the ambient temperature and let it build up slowly in temperature.
The under dash cab heaters are separated from the defrosters, but aids in
defrosting all windows by circulating the heat from the bottom to the back
and up and down the windshield and back thru the heater units.
Now, I will have to wait, until it gets to 110 degrees above zero to test
out the Air Condition systems.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not going to bring my own politics to the list, and
others have said mostly what I would have said should I have
done so.
But something needs to be said about the EV1 that wasn't
mentioned in this topic. To be fair, GM may have faced a
lawsuit due to fires related to the Magnacharger bullsh*t GM
pushed. However, one could argue that the charger could have
simply been replaced. It wasn't even originally meant to be
in the car to begin with, and is one of the reasons Cocconi
left GM, aside from them bitching about his inverter design
using MOSFETs as opposed to IGBTs. The car was supposed to
be built on the KISS principle to keep costs down.
Somethings must be said about the NiMH battery. That
chemistry typically had problems with charge retention, and
the one used in the EV1 by Ovonic had problems overheating
in 90+ degree weather. Other than that, it may have been
viable. I was flipping through the archives and someone
mentioned that at 20,000 cars a year, the NiMH battery in
that production volume would have been a mere $150/kwh(Or
about a $4,000 pack cost, with 100,000+ mile life). *VIABLE*
to replace the ICE, and grant a 150+ mile high speed 70-80
MPH highway range. 150 miles is good for Interstate travel,
given what Doug Korthoff has done with 100-120 miles range
on his EVs. Just a few minor inconveniences, basically
double your travel time. But still viable. Most of your
driving won't be on long trips anyway. Too bad that battery
was bought out by an oil company. We should at least be
using them in our conversions by now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not at all a fan of Rush, but maybe Wayland could change
his bigotry by taking him for a ride in Blue Meanie...
I remember finding an old broadcast of his doing a google
search, and the subject was hybrid-electric autos. He
mentioned his "twin-turbo" that did 0-60 in like 4.6 seconds
and weighed about 6,000 pounds. My guess is either a Bentley
or some tuned Cadillac Escalade. His roly-poly ass couldn't
fit in anything else, me thinks. :)
Through the broadcast, he kept chastizing hybrids and their
drivers, and then kept blabbing on and on about how they
shouldn't be offered because people want choice and don't
want to be forced to buy a slow, cramped, tiny car. He's
right, to a point, that people won't want a slow wedge, but
his comments on hybrids are far off, perhaps they were
intentionally that way even. But he is very wrong when he
thinks people don't want alternative fuel cars(Cars that
don't use any gasoline or petrol diesel), and even more
wrong when he mentions that technology is not viable to
replace oil. So many examples abound to contradict his
claims.
Maybe if someone would build an electric muscle car, like an
electric GTO or maybe an electric Plymouth Fury, his
argument wouldn't be worth anything; it isn't at all worth
much as it stands. Someone was building an electric GTO, but
he hasn't updated his page in years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Imagine my surprise when I opened the "Driving" section of this
morning's paper to find a picture of Ken Trough proudly displaying his
e-scooter. The article, which was reprinted from NY Times, also made
good mention of visforvoltage.com "perhaps the best clearinghouse for
information of PEVs". The final paragraph, as a take-home message:
""I like personal electric vehicles because they don't directly
challenge the automotive manufacturing base", he said. "It's very
subversive technology. It gets people thinking about electric vehicles.
Once people find out what a good product it is, what it can mean for
their lives, in their living spaces and what it can do for their
transportation budgets and quality of life, I think it is a no brainer.
You get more smile per mile.""
This in the Edmonton Journal, in the heart of Alberta, Canada's oil patch.
Way to go, Ken!
Speaking of smiles per mile, yesterday morning I spent a grueling couple
of hours in the dnetist chair. When I got back in the Mazda I found to
my horror that there was no power. Arrgh! I actually started to walk
home, which probably would have taken 45 minutes, but it soon was
obvious that this was not a practical option, since it was -28C and
windy (that's -18F). Hey, maybe I had drained my little 12 volt battery
by leaving the headlights on. Sure enough, that's what I had done, but
it did not recover enough in 30 minutes to pull in the main contactor.
The dentist office was in a mall, so I went to Radio Shack and bought a
couple of cheap lantern batteries and some jumper wires. I turned the
key on, then touched my lantern battery jump starter to the aux battery
terminals. I was rewarded with that blessed clunk of the main contactor
pulling in, and with it the dc-dc that would quickly restore my little
aux battery to life. When I got home I rewarded it with a nice long 1
amp top-up. Out at the cottage I have a cheap 12 volt flashlight with a
small agm. I think I'll wire in a 12 volt plug to it so I can jump
start from the cigar lighter.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmoonton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> Thanks, this is helpful. Unfortunately, the sound is
> not present until under significant RPMs, or high
> load. These conditions are not met when on a 12V run.
> Otherwise we'd have noticed the problem before
> installing in the vehicle...
Then use 24v. Better have a tach to check the real rpm though. On 24v no
load you can easily over-rev the motor!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I have a need to build a simple field regulator to supply up to 48 volts to
> the slip rings on the 3ph.generator I use to charge the current
> eliminator.There are 240 and 120 v single ph and 240 3ph.The circuit seems to
> take less than
> 2 amps.15 volts no load 48 volts full load.
Hi Dennis,
For something simple to provide 15-48 volts DC at 15 amps, driving the
highly inductive field, I think I'd use a variac and rectifier. It is
manually controlled, of course.
If you want something smaller and cheaper, but that will require some
building and experimenting, I'd use a phase-controlled motor speed
controller (the kind used in corded electric drills, treadmills, etc.)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I was toying with adding an electronic field-control circuit to the
Elec-trak E20. I wanted to achieve two things:
1. smoother field weakening
2. stronger field than what 36V gives me to be able to slow the
tractor using regen. breaking.
I believe the field current to be less than 4A @ 36V, I have only
36V available from the batteries. So I considered using a variable
(small 100W) DC-DC from 36V to maybe 6 - 48V. Are (cheap) DC-DC
(chips) available that are adjustable and can do step down as
well as step up?
Any experiences on how strong I would have to make the field to
achieve an effective breaking/regeneration force to slow down
the tractor.
The implementation could be to have the break switch not only
cut armature current but also short the armature and raise the
field current to say 48V while the break pedal is pressed
Any thoughts? Maybe this is just too complex for the benefits.
I just hate it when I go down hill and touch the break just a
bit the tractor actually may speed up (until I press further and
thus apply the mechanical break). I changed the setting to right
now first apply the mechanical break before it cuts motor current
but this is not ideal as well as it lugs the motor before it
disengages it and probably causes wear on the contactors due
to the higher current they need to switch off.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Freitag, 14. Januar 2005 12:59
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Help Field excitation
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > I have a need to build a simple field regulator to supply
> up to 48 volts to
> > the slip rings on the 3ph.generator I use to charge the current
> > eliminator.There are 240 and 120 v single ph and 240
> 3ph.The circuit seems to take less than
> > 2 amps.15 volts no load 48 volts full load.
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> For something simple to provide 15-48 volts DC at 15 amps, driving the
> highly inductive field, I think I'd use a variac and rectifier. It is
> manually controlled, of course.
>
> If you want something smaller and cheaper, but that will require some
> building and experimenting, I'd use a phase-controlled motor speed
> controller (the kind used in corded electric drills, treadmills, etc.)
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > > smooth with the clutch out and in neutral?
> Serious RPMs yield no noise in neutral.
>
I had a motor fly apart when spinning with no load , that's when I relized I
had no idea what the rpm of the motor was , I " though " I was not over
reving but looking back (over a pile of money) I can see that I really had
no idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> I have seen a tractor conversion, totally blew me away amazing.
> Lawn tractors, dragstors, but no large trucks, not even medium
> trucks with 4x4.
My 1988 Jeep Cherokee is a 4x4 Electric Vehicle. It's not in the EV Album yet,
but I do have alot of details on my website. With my limited budget, I'm having
a hard time as it is getting good range/performance out of my Cherokee, which I
think weighs less than 4500 lbs. (but I haven't had it weighed yet).
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:45:18 -0600
From: Felix Gardner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Steve Clunn, or any one,
I have a 20 mile commute to work one way, I drive on the highway at
about 60 to 75 miles an hour, what rating of a motor and how large of
a battery pack would it take to move a 6030 lbs 4x4 vehicle that far
and still get me home?
A pusher trailer vs a generator trailer, which would have more success
in assisting a small EV conversion car travel 250 miles, 60 to 75 mph?
What weather conditions can an EV tolerate? Winter weather is rough
on vehicles in Wisconsin. Lots of salt and sand on the roads, 25
degrees below zero, ice rain sleet snow slush, and muddy. Can an EV
be built to withstand dust, sand, dirt, mud, water? What about
fording?
I am planning on attempting two conversions this summer. One light
speedy long range transport (for my beautiful mate Nikki) and one
heavy durable vehicle for winter time and recreational use (mostly for
me). I want to experience the challenges of different weight classes
and different vehicle uses and demands. I might do three conversions,
my buddy has a little Honda that he would like to upgrade.
Most of the conversions I am finding are of small to medium light
vehicles designed for speed. I have seen a tractor conversion,
totally blew me away amazing. Lawn tractors, dragstors, but no large
trucks, not even medium trucks with 4x4. I am thinking that I will
first start with a small speedy road cutter. Then a S-10 or Ranger
with 4x4.
Here in Wisconsin everyone drives trucks, if people could see a
successful 4x4 conversion that could tolerate all the conditions of an
ICE 4x4, I'm sure people would stand up and notice.
Well, I sort of strayed away from the pusher trailer topic, but what
about a pickup with a generator in the bed? Aghh, then it would just
be another stupid hybrid, however less complicated as the generator
could be removed when not needed.
Felix
--
--signature--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A fellow EVer with the same setup runs his DCP up to
40 mph at 6K RPMs. If I'm only going up to 32 mph,
and getting noise from 25-32 mph, I was deducing I was
under 6K safety window of motor & controller.
Noise was not occuring in first gear, 12V load., w/
just flywheel & clutch. mounted, no tranny.
Tranny had 98K miles on it, but had been transported,
and fair amt. of jackrabbit starts in So.Cal traffic.
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
This was a dream of mine, a full sized electric Blazer or muscle car.
The $$ I'm saving on conversion easily pays for downsizing to a
Porsche.
Figure a 2000 lb sports car would take 20 to 28 orbitals to get the
job done. The big 4x4 is 3x the weight, and possibly 3x worse aero.
Now you are going to need 60 to 84 orbitals and 3 motors -- that has
moved cost from maybe $5k to $10k up to $15k to $30k. It'll also take
alot of power to charge that many batteries overnight. For the muscle
car, it's about 2x the cost.
If you are determined to go big, there are some things that'll help
alot. U.S. Body Source sells full sized chevy fiberglass truck and
Blazer bodies. They claim it'll save 1500 lbs! Chopping the top on a
truck can significantly lessen the frontal area.
--- Felix Gardner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I have a 20 mile commute to work one way, I drive on the highway at
> about 60 to 75 miles an hour, what rating of a motor and how large
> of
> a battery pack would it take to move a 6030 lbs 4x4 vehicle that
> far
> and still get me home?
> ...
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well yea, I always put in a more than I take out. You have to, to even get
back to 14.8 volts and 2 amps.
And clearly... my capacity is not dropping in every cycle by %4. So that is
not happening.
> You can't just put in what you took out. You must put in an extra
> 3% or 4% to fully charge the negative plate. If you don't overcharge by 3%
> or 4%, the negative plate will fall behind every cycle and will sulfate.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A last-minute change:
> Everyone,
>
> If you were planning on participating in tomorrow's
(Friday) protest
> at Senator Ford, please be advised, the LOCATION AND
TIME HAVE BEEN
> CHANGED. Due to unforseen circumstances, the
location had to be
> changed at the last minute and that meant a change
in time since
> permits had to be granted for the new location. The
new location is:
>
> DOWNTOWN FORD SALES
> 525 N. 16TH ST.
> SACRAMENTO 95814
>
> The time is shifted from a Friday start to Saturday
at 8:30 am. The
> protest will go through Monday.
>
> We hope this doesn't cause problems for those of you
wishing to
> participate. Our apologies to those who are
affected.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
> 2) If considering the 11" motor, be sure to check the clearance from
> the tranny input shaft to the inner CV joint. That can be a problem
> with large motors and transverse installations.
>
V-8s have no torque... Hummm we are getting jaded now aren't we?
The U of W Team has been shown very clearly the clearance points in my
Fiero.
They are as you said the passenger side (Right) CV joint and half shaft,
And... the far end of the right side engine Cradle, I had to jack one one of
the motor up to get the fan and fan gard off.
Members of the team actually did this....
Barked knuckles and grahite Dust are better teachers than Book work.
We all don't know if a Warp 11" is truley available, and when.
We could use blue prints of intalation.
\
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
as seth says, radiator size is not strictly a function
of energy rejected, but rather a combination of that
and temperature difference between the two streams.
car makers size their radiators at ~50 deg C ambient.
As anyone who has designed a heat exchanger can
appreciate, cooling the FC stack to 80 deg C with
ambient air at 50 deg C is a serious challenge. You
don't have a lot of dT to work with. Actually it is
even worse than that because there are really two heat
exchangers in that loop (one cooling the stack with
coolant and then one cooling the coolant with air) so
each HEX has only about half that dT to work with.
the other reason FC radiators are so big is that much
less energy leaves the powerplant via the exhaust
compared to an IC engine that loses about 30% of the
fuel energy through the tail pipe.
as for Seth's question regarding cold weather
operation, the anwer is: it is not easy. But it is
being worked on as we speak. In fact, both Honda and
Hyundai have announced in the last few weeks that they
have FC cars that can start and operate at sub zero
temperatures and that they will put them into the
field this year (2005) in cold climates like detroit
and upstate NY as part of the freedom car
demonstration program.
btw, i drove the Hyundai car back in december and
despite being somewhat overweight, it is the peppiest
EV i have ever driven with plenty of power right up to
75+ mph.
~fortunat
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The lower operating temp means that the radiatior
> temp is not as high
> above ambient, reducing efficiency. The big
> question: can they run it
> anywhere but San Fran yet? They usually have pure
> H2O coolant and can't
> stand heat or cold.
>
> Seth
>
> On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:12 PM, David Roden (Akron OH
> USA) wrote:
>
> > This is the part I find amusing:
> >
> > "Because the fuel cells used in cars would operate
> at about 180 degrees
> > Fahrenheit, they require more cooling and thus
> about twice the radiator
> > space of a conventional car, so honeycombed
> radiator surfaces are
> > nestled
> > around the front taillights, in the back and on
> the sides."
> >
> > So it needs twice the radiator capacity of a
> conventional car, which
> > already
> > wastes, what, about 85% of its fuel's energy? I'm
> not quite seeing
> > how this
> > is supposed to help matters.
> >
> > OTOH, if they really managed to stuff a fuel cell
> into a box the size
> > of a VCR,
> > they *have* been busy. I just wish they'd put
> some of that "busy" to
> > work
> > building BEVs instead.
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Felix wrote:
...EV technology needs popularity. I've been
spreading the word about EV here in Wisconsin. Are
there any EV lobbyist groups? If so they need more
backing, and if not there need to be?...
Yes! The Electric Auto Association (www.eaaev.org)
has been the backbone for many EV-ers for decades and
has the potential to be much more vocal, in the news,
and a potent lobbying force. If we all become EAA
members and spread the word, we can help give the
organization the clout to make a bigger difference.
For example, I'd like to see EAA be so well known that
any time EVs get mentioned (by Rush or any other
yahoos), a reporter picks up the phone and calls EAA
for a comment. Politicians and legislation-writers
should be seeking EAA's input on topics related to
energy and transportation.
Part of the way to make that happen is for each member
of EAA to use every opportunity to get our name and
ideas out there. Call Rush and say, "I'm a member of
the Electric Auto Association, and I think..." Write a
letter to your newspaper's editor saying, "As a member
of the Electric Auto Association, blah blah blah."
See how many times you can mention "the Electric Auto
Association" in conversations when you talk to people
about electric vehicles.
I think it's very cool that there are forklift drivers
and other EV users on this list, showing that the
benefits of EVs extend way beyond cars. Even if you
don't drive an electric auto, the EAA speaks for you.
=====
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Auto Association
415-681-7716
www.sfeaa.org
There are 941 electric vehicles and neighborhood electric vehicles in San
Francisco (DMV statistics). Driving with no gas, no oil, no noise, no emissions
-- no kidding!
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jerry and all
I finally got under my bug to look at the coilovers
shocks there is nothing written on them so I will have
to look up the guy that installed them to find out
where he got them. they hold up my 450 lbs of front
end batts and I feel confident that they will hold up
the additional batts in the rear with no problem. I
think he got them at an off road buggy place but
untill I track him down I won't know for sure
keith
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry wrote:
> > And which Coilovers did you use?
> > Cost? and where did you get them? I need some
> > badly.
> > Have you put weight on them to see what the
> ride
> > height will be?
> > I'm using 360 lbs of batts now and want to put
> in
> > 420 lbs of batts in my front and raise it a couple
> of
> > inches with coilovers but the coils I have now
> don't
> > help that much and it's dragging.
> > The towers are not that strong either it
> seems.
> > Hot EV!! Can't wait until you get it going.
> Got to
> > be killer fast!
>
> How much does the front of your EV weigh? The stock
> VW front suspension is
> designed for the correct ride hight at about 750lbs.
> If you just need to be
> higher (the spring rate is acceptable) then you can
> cut and turn the center
> of the beams. This should be done by a qualified
> welder and one beam at a
> time. My Buggy has the beam cut and turned 1/4 inch
> to lower my buggy (only
> 605lbs on the front.) The process can be done to
> either raise of lower a
> Beetle front beam, but should be done equally to
> both beams (otherwise you
> can trash the bearings in the beam.) A qualified
> welder should be willing to
> do this for about $150 (local area price.) You have
> to take the front
> suspension off and take it down to the beam (the
> bearings can remain
> inside.)
>
> Neon
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Much congratulations go to Ken! Where can one view the New York Times
article?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
Imagine my surprise when I opened the "Driving" section of this morning's
paper to find a picture of Ken Trough proudly displaying his e-scooter.
The article, which was reprinted from NY Times, also made good mention of
visforvoltage.com "perhaps the best clearinghouse for information of
PEVs". The final paragraph, as a take-home message:
""I like personal electric vehicles because they don't directly challenge
the automotive manufacturing base", he said. "It's very subversive
technology. It gets people thinking about electric vehicles. Once people
find out what a good product it is, what it can mean for their lives, in
their living spaces and what it can do for their transportation budgets
and quality of life, I think it is a no brainer. You get more smile per
mile.""
This in the Edmonton Journal, in the heart of Alberta, Canada's oil patch.
Way to go, Ken!
Speaking of smiles per mile, yesterday morning I spent a grueling couple
of hours in the dnetist chair. When I got back in the Mazda I found to my
horror that there was no power. Arrgh! I actually started to walk home,
which probably would have taken 45 minutes, but it soon was obvious that
this was not a practical option, since it was -28C and windy
(that's -18F). Hey, maybe I had drained my little 12 volt battery by
leaving the headlights on. Sure enough, that's what I had done, but it
did not recover enough in 30 minutes to pull in the main contactor. The
dentist office was in a mall, so I went to Radio Shack and bought a couple
of cheap lantern batteries and some jumper wires. I turned the key on,
then touched my lantern battery jump starter to the aux battery terminals.
I was rewarded with that blessed clunk of the main contactor pulling in,
and with it the dc-dc that would quickly restore my little aux battery to
life. When I got home I rewarded it with a nice long 1 amp top-up. Out
at the cottage I have a cheap 12 volt flashlight with a small agm. I
think I'll wire in a 12 volt plug to it so I can jump start from the cigar
lighter.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmoonton
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Felix Gardner wrote:
<a rant that pretty well captures the general feeling on this list>
We feel your pain, Felix. Stick around, learn, take action. The
long-timers here are just as passionate about these things as you. We
probably rant less because we have learned to turn our disgust with the
status quo into action, at least to the best of our individual abilities.
James Jarrett wrote:
> *SIGH* Sorry to vent, just generally pi**ed at the world
> right now. I
> have no EV, there likely isn't one in my very near future, and the
> powers that be like it that way.
Yeah, me too. And I get the feeling we're not alone. One thing that
distinguishes the people here is that we can see beyond "common knowledge"
and realize that reality can be something different, maybe even surprising
and counter-intuitive. We also tend to see that "common knowledge" is too
often merely BS that is purposely planted in order to line someone's
pockets. Maybe we're pi**ed in part because the result of the last election
is finally sinking in - the realization that the level of background BS in
this society is at an all-time high.
Bob Rice wrote:
> Michael Moore could do a good movie doco thing on Why-cant
> -you-buy-an-electric-car, with some of the footage from 911. Hope he
> duz, but I think he is gunna "do" the Drug Cartels, first?
I've suggested this to him. Maybe from his point of view EVs are too small
a slice of human experience to get much traction. I'm not so sure he should
leave Bush alone yet though. I won't go into it here, but search around for
what's been going on recently in Equatorial Guinea. Here are two links to
get you started:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4284291
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4200935
The story is getting bigger, and it sucks the last shred of credibility from
W's justifications for invading Iraq. Basically, our actions in Equatorial
Guinea prove beyond any doubt that it's perfectly OK to be an evil,
murderous, thieving despot, as long as you play nice and make your vast oil
reserves available to the US. It *is* all about oil. Sorry, I know that's
OT and political, but I'm feeling pretty pi**ed off too. Please take any
further discussion of this topic off-list.
Each of us needs to figure out a way to turn being pi**ed off into action.
Could be big, could be small, must be right for you. For me Jeff's post
pushed a button:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I personally am not a motorcycle person, but it seams that a motor
> cycle is a great way to get into EV's at a much reduced buy-in.
I've been trying to think of a way to contribute something to the cause.
Unfortunately, I have very little time. My looooong-running LeSled project
spends months without being touched. It's agonizing. The distractions are
diminishing though. Maybe, hopefully, with some luck, it'll be on the road
this spring and I can dump the ICE I've been driving. I also need to finish
LeSled to make space for the next project (don't tell my wife ;^).
How about an EM (electric motorcycle) kit? There was some lively discussion
of that some time back. I see the most attractive option as being a "city
bike" based on a Honda CB400T or CB450T. They came in two different body
styles http://media9.motorcities.com/01ANB114850035A.jpeg or
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/hawk400d/image2/honda/cb450t.jpg, but that
may not matter much after conversion. I'm thinking of using a direct drive
ADC A00 (formerly A89) motor, an Alltrax 72V 450A controller and 6 Optimas
or Orbitals. That should easily get you 60 mph or better (still a little
short for expressway travel, IMO). I have no clue what range you'd get, but
batteries would make up 30+% of the vehicle + single rider total weight.
With all new parts, the price would be around $3000 plus the motorcycle.
More for slick bodywork to make it look more finished. The kit would allow
you to just bolt it together, no welding. Or I could sell the kit
instruction book with plans for the special-fab pieces.
Here's the rub - I'm more than qualified to do this, but I personally have
no justifiable use for a motorcycle any more. Is there anyone who would
like to team up to build an EM for you and develop a kit that I can sell?
If I can get some actual (though modest) income from this, I can hopefully
expand with other ideas I have.
Like a kit to convert a Toyota Tacoma into an EV. Does anyone convert Chevy
S-10s any more? Maybe not, because it's an old design? (Sorry, that can't
be the next project - my wife would freak out! ;^)
The bottom line here is that there *are* things we can do. Just being
pi**ed doesn't accomplish much. Everyone has different abilities,
opportunities, contacts, choices. Let's make the most of them.
Chris
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When you want accurate information you go speak to the horses mouth. In this
case I called Warfield Electric Motor Company www.warfieldelectric.com to
see if the Netgain 11" motor was actually in production. The short answer is
no but they do build to suite so if you ordered one you would get one. I'm
not sure what the lead time is. Their contact info is on their web site. I
spoke with Craig there. I agree with Rich on learning hands on. For some
people this is a much easier method. Sometimes through experimentation you
may learn something that isn't in a book.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
2) If considering the 11" motor, be sure to check the clearance from
the tranny input shaft to the inner CV joint. That can be a problem
with large motors and transverse installations.
V-8s have no torque... Hummm we are getting jaded now aren't we?
The U of W Team has been shown very clearly the clearance points in my
Fiero.
They are as you said the passenger side (Right) CV joint and half shaft,
And... the far end of the right side engine Cradle, I had to jack one one
of
the motor up to get the fan and fan gard off.
Members of the team actually did this....
Barked knuckles and grahite Dust are better teachers than Book work.
We all don't know if a Warp 11" is truley available, and when.
We could use blue prints of intalation.
\
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Much congratulations go to Ken! Where can one view the New York Times
article?
In the original article, the photo of me was left out because of last
minute additions to the disaster coverage that day. Apparently, the
Edmonton article ran it with my photo intact.
Here is the complete article along with the direct links at the end:
-------------------------------------------------
Taking Hills in a Single Glide
December 31, 2004
By CHRIS DIXON
http://nytimes.com
YOU just turn the key," said Kevin Penrose, pointing to the L.E.D.
controls on a flat-black, well-wired mountain bike outside Electric
Cyclery, his tiny, nondescript shop on the
Pacific Coast Highway in Laguna Beach, Calif. "The thumb lever is the
throttle, and this button is for turbo mode. If you go downhill, the
blue light will show when the regenerative charging kicks in."
These days, a visit to Costco, Wal-Mart, a local auto-parts store or
even eBay will present you with what may seem a baffling array of
two-wheel electric vehicles that promise to make commuting a breeze, or
serve as the best toy a kid ever had. Aside from having two wheels, the
common thread among these personal electric vehicles, or P.E.V.'s, is a
24- or 36-volt lead-acid or nickel metal hydride battery, a 250- to
1,500-watt electric motor and the ability to go as
fast as 40 miles per hour and as far as 40 miles on a single charge.
Sales of P.E.V.'s, have increased anywhere from 40 to 200 percent
annually over the last three or four years in the United States, said
Seth Leitman, an alternative transportation consultant for New York
State and, more
recently, a P.E.V. retailer. And even though much of the market is made
up of inexpensive imports that can be unreliable (in September, Target
stores announced the recall of nearly 75,000 of its $200 Chinese-made
Red Dragon and E-Scooters), a significant portion of it is composed of
more expensive, powerful machines that offer the range, sturdiness and
reliability to serve as genuine transportation aids. Mr. Penrose said
that at his store he was having no trouble finding customers for his
two-wheel stand-up electric scooters, larger, sit-down electric
motorcycles and the wired-up mountain bike he was showing,
the WaveCrest Tidal Force.
With the exception of its wires and a pair of foot-diameter black disks
at the center of each wheel, the Tidal Force is a high-end,
front-suspension mountain bike whose folding
frame was designed for military use. The front disk holds a 36-volt
nickel metal hydride battery, and the rear contains a 750-watt
direct-drive motor that runs at 89 percent efficiency.
On a recent test run, the bike almost silently shot up the steep incline
of a street near the store with no pedaling whatsoever. Shifted into
pedaling gear as it reached the crest of a hill and started on the
downgrade, the bike hit around 30 miles an hour. Without pedaling, it
easily held
20. Then, on a steeply inclined fire road, the sensation of quietly
flying up an unpaved mile-long hill that normally requires a granny gear
was amazing. The bike's solid feel on the way down was just as
impressive.
At $1,500 to $3,000, a WaveCrest can be an expensive option for those
looking for an electric bike. There are many other options, ranging from
other electric bicycles to stand-up scooters to Vespa-style
e-motorbikes. Miles per charge and power to the ground vary greatly, but
a good
bike or scooter should take you at least 10 miles on a charge. It should
also be able to recharge in three to six hours.
One of the country's largest P.E.V. dealerships is NYCE Wheels in
Manhattan. The manager, Mike Dolan, said that business at the store,
which sells and services higher-end P.E.V.'s, is growing. "More people
want these," he said. "Gas prices are going through the roof and taxis
are more
expensive. Once people realize that they can get anywhere in the city on
their own terms, it becomes a really attractive option."
Mr. Dolan said that he had just sold a WaveCrest 750 mountain bike to a
trail rider from New Jersey and a Goped ESR 750 stand-up scooter to a
city messenger. Both these American-made products and the Taiwanese-made
eGo electric motorbike are among Mr. Dolan's best-sellers.
Although local laws vary, there are generally three legal
classifications for P.E.V.'s. The simplest two-wheel P.E.V.'s are small
stand-up scooters that occasionally offer seats. In most parts of the
country, these machines may be ridden on public roads where the speed
limit does
not exceed 25 m.p.h., so long as their own speed cannot exceed 20
m.p.h.
In New York City, these scooters were nearly outlawed after a rash of
miniature "pocket rocket" motorcycle accidents led to an ordinance that
outlawed all gas-powered scooters and mini-motorcycles. In a last-minute
appeal, electric
scooter riders were able to persuade the city to make an exception for
riding on public streets so long as speeds were electronically limited
to 15 m.p.h. They may not be used on sidewalks.
Depending on the jurisdiction, riders of electric bicycles are generally
able to avoid any legal restrictions if their bikes do not exceed 20 or
30 m.p.h., and larger, Vespa-size electric motorbikes must generally be
lighted, blinkered, insured and licensed just like their
gasoline-powered counterparts.
The Web site visforvoltage.com, perhaps the best
clearinghouse for information on P.E.V.'s, and a few calls to Mr.
Penrose's customers suggested that range and power are the keys to happy
cruising.
For Julie London, 43, of San Juan Capistrano, Calif., a WaveCrest has
meant freedom from the ravages of early-onset Parkinson's disease.
Formerly an avid cyclist and racer, Ms. London was forced off her bike a
few years ago by
fatigue from Parkinson's. "I was absolutely amazed when I rode one," she
said. "I was literally overcome with emotion because it was like getting
my life back again. I was laughing uncontrollably for, like, 15 minutes.
Now I ride
mine pretty much every day. It'll go 20 miles per hour, and if I'm too
tired to pedal, I don't have to. It's actually easier for me to ride
than driving my car."
Ken Trough, a Web developer from Bellingham, Wash., was so taken with
P.E.V. technology that he created the visforvoltage Web site. Mr. Trough
makes a five-mile daily trip to work aboard a powerful Badsey Hotscoot
stand-up
scooter. "I like personal electric vehicles because they don't directly
challenge the automotive manufacturing base," he said. "It's very
subversive technology. It gets people thinking about electric vehicles.
Once people find out what a good product this is, what it can mean in
their lives, in their living spaces and what it can do for their
transportation budgets and quality of life, I think it's a no-brainer.
You get more smiles per mile."
Here are the direct links for NY Times subscribers:
http://tinyurl.com/6h5ab
http://tinyurl.com/4l6jv
Thanks for all the kind words!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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