EV Digest 4027
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: re Save the rangers, bike conversions
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque rotation ?s
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque rotation ?s
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hydrogen on NPR NOW
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hydro caps, Re: "very important that you allow the battery to gas"?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: fight the automakers' lawsuit
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: save the EV Rangers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) LED Headlights?
by "Marc Michon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) save those gas lines
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EV for sale on Ebay--4518618541
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Building big EVs, was Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> Hi Jeff, I ride a motorcycle, and originally it was my first
> choice prior to looking into it in the early 70's. My two
> cylinder motorcycles (Harley, Honda, Kawasaki) have always
> gotten 60mpg and the best I could figure from riding some and
> talking to motorcycle converters is 10 miles per charge on
> the freeway. Adding 200+ pounds of batteries bulked out the
> side to get more range above 10mpc causes unsafe handling on
> a bike.
Hi Mark,
I don't know about any rules of thumb regarding battery weight and range
that apply to EMs. Looking through the Photo Album suggests a range of 20
miles should be doable.
I have to disagree with your claim about adding 200 lbs of batteries
resulting in unsafe handling. Keep in mind that as a former sport bike
rider I take handling Very Seriously.
There's nothing really different in concept here from converting a car. If
you add a huge amount of weight, of course your handling will suffer.
That's why you don't stop at adding weight - you make other changes to
compensate. Example: My LeSled had an original curb weight of around 1800
lbs. GVWR is around 2600 lbs. With my 20 US145 batteries it weighs just
over 3000 lbs. Is its handling poor? Of course! But since I've worked
very hard to keep a good weight distribution, when I add stiffer springs,
anti-roll bars and shocks to compensate for the weight, it will handle just
like any other small 3000 lb. car. A VW Golf, for instance.
The problem with motorcycles is that they are much smaller, and therefore
much more prone to wild deviations from the original weight distribution and
polar moment when converted. And frankly, there are very few people, even
those who have ridden for years, who understand anything at all about
monotrack vehicle dynamics. Easily 95% of the motorcycle riders out there
haven't the faintest clue how it all works. There's lots of lore, precious
little knowledge. You need to *know* if you want to build a good EM. If
you don't, you get "unsafe handling".
Obviously stiffer springs will be needed. Stiffer springs should always be
paired with stiffer shocks. (Yes, for cars too.) This is all easy with
off-the-shelf parts and fork oils. The real key to success is in weight
distribution and concentration. Keep the cg where it should be, and you
don't have to make any changes to rake or trail to compensate. You get a
bike that weighs 200 lbs. more than it did, feels like it weighs maybe 75
lbs. heavier, and handles very well. Maybe even better than before if you
get it really right.
If this sounds like unsubstantiated speculation, consider that there was a
comparison road test years ago between a Ducati 900SS and a Honda CB750.
The Honda was over 100 pounds heavier, but it handled lighter, quicker and
with more rider confidence. Weight distribution and concentration matter.
More important, how they work with the rake, trail and wheelbase of the bike
are critical.
Please, no blanket statements. They can unnecessarily limit our options.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
whata truly spendid article
i hope you have a well deserved air of smugness about you
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Much congratulations go to Ken! Where can one view the New York Times
> article?
In the original article, the photo of me was left out because of last
minute additions to the disaster coverage that day. Apparently, the
Edmonton article ran it with my photo intact.
Here is the complete article along with the direct links at the end:
-------------------------------------------------
Taking Hills in a Single Glide
December 31, 2004
By CHRIS DIXON
http://nytimes.com
YOU just turn the key," said Kevin Penrose, pointing to the L.E.D.
controls on a flat-black, well-wired mountain bike outside Electric
Cyclery, his tiny, nondescript shop on the
Pacific Coast Highway in Laguna Beach, Calif. "The thumb lever is the
throttle, and this button is for turbo mode. If you go downhill, the
blue light will show when the regenerative charging kicks in."
These days, a visit to Costco, Wal-Mart, a local auto-parts store or
even eBay will present you with what may seem a baffling array of
two-wheel electric vehicles that promise to make commuting a breeze, or
serve as the best toy a kid ever had. Aside from having two wheels, the
common thread among these personal electric vehicles, or P.E.V.'s, is a
24- or 36-volt lead-acid or nickel metal hydride battery, a 250- to
1,500-watt electric motor and the ability to go as
fast as 40 miles per hour and as far as 40 miles on a single charge.
Sales of P.E.V.'s, have increased anywhere from 40 to 200 percent
annually over the last three or four years in the United States, said
Seth Leitman, an alternative transportation consultant for New York
State and, more
recently, a P.E.V. retailer. And even though much of the market is made
up of inexpensive imports that can be unreliable (in September, Target
stores announced the recall of nearly 75,000 of its $200 Chinese-made
Red Dragon and E-Scooters), a significant portion of it is composed of
more expensive, powerful machines that offer the range, sturdiness and
reliability to serve as genuine transportation aids. Mr. Penrose said
that at his store he was having no trouble finding customers for his
two-wheel stand-up electric scooters, larger, sit-down electric
motorcycles and the wired-up mountain bike he was showing,
the WaveCrest Tidal Force.
With the exception of its wires and a pair of foot-diameter black disks
at the center of each wheel, the Tidal Force is a high-end,
front-suspension mountain bike whose folding
frame was designed for military use. The front disk holds a 36-volt
nickel metal hydride battery, and the rear contains a 750-watt
direct-drive motor that runs at 89 percent efficiency.
On a recent test run, the bike almost silently shot up the steep incline
of a street near the store with no pedaling whatsoever. Shifted into
pedaling gear as it reached the crest of a hill and started on the
downgrade, the bike hit around 30 miles an hour. Without pedaling, it
easily held
20. Then, on a steeply inclined fire road, the sensation of quietly
flying up an unpaved mile-long hill that normally requires a granny gear
was amazing. The bike's solid feel on the way down was just as
impressive.
At $1,500 to $3,000, a WaveCrest can be an expensive option for those
looking for an electric bike. There are many other options, ranging from
other electric bicycles to stand-up scooters to Vespa-style
e-motorbikes. Miles per charge and power to the ground vary greatly, but
a good
bike or scooter should take you at least 10 miles on a charge. It should
also be able to recharge in three to six hours.
One of the country's largest P.E.V. dealerships is NYCE Wheels in
Manhattan. The manager, Mike Dolan, said that business at the store,
which sells and services higher-end P.E.V.'s, is growing. "More people
want these," he said. "Gas prices are going through the roof and taxis
are more
expensive. Once people realize that they can get anywhere in the city on
their own terms, it becomes a really attractive option."
Mr. Dolan said that he had just sold a WaveCrest 750 mountain bike to a
trail rider from New Jersey and a Goped ESR 750 stand-up scooter to a
city messenger. Both these American-made products and the Taiwanese-made
eGo electric motorbike are among Mr. Dolan's best-sellers.
Although local laws vary, there are generally three legal
classifications for P.E.V.'s. The simplest two-wheel P.E.V.'s are small
stand-up scooters that occasionally offer seats. In most parts of the
country, these machines may be ridden on public roads where the speed
limit does
not exceed 25 m.p.h., so long as their own speed cannot exceed 20
m.p.h.
In New York City, these scooters were nearly outlawed after a rash of
miniature "pocket rocket" motorcycle accidents led to an ordinance that
outlawed all gas-powered scooters and mini-motorcycles. In a last-minute
appeal, electric
scooter riders were able to persuade the city to make an exception for
riding on public streets so long as speeds were electronically limited
to 15 m.p.h. They may not be used on sidewalks.
Depending on the jurisdiction, riders of electric bicycles are generally
able to avoid any legal restrictions if their bikes do not exceed 20 or
30 m.p.h., and larger, Vespa-size electric motorbikes must generally be
lighted, blinkered, insured and licensed just like their
gasoline-powered counterparts.
The Web site visforvoltage.com, perhaps the best
clearinghouse for information on P.E.V.'s, and a few calls to Mr.
Penrose's customers suggested that range and power are the keys to happy
cruising.
For Julie London, 43, of San Juan Capistrano, Calif., a WaveCrest has
meant freedom from the ravages of early-onset Parkinson's disease.
Formerly an avid cyclist and racer, Ms. London was forced off her bike a
few years ago by
fatigue from Parkinson's. "I was absolutely amazed when I rode one," she
said. "I was literally overcome with emotion because it was like getting
my life back again. I was laughing uncontrollably for, like, 15 minutes.
Now I ride
mine pretty much every day. It'll go 20 miles per hour, and if I'm too
tired to pedal, I don't have to. It's actually easier for me to ride
than driving my car."
Ken Trough, a Web developer from Bellingham, Wash., was so taken with
P.E.V. technology that he created the visforvoltage Web site. Mr. Trough
makes a five-mile daily trip to work aboard a powerful Badsey Hotscoot
stand-up
scooter. "I like personal electric vehicles because they don't directly
challenge the automotive manufacturing base," he said. "It's very
subversive technology. It gets people thinking about electric vehicles.
Once people find out what a good product this is, what it can mean in
their lives, in their living spaces and what it can do for their
transportation budgets and quality of life, I think it's a no-brainer.
You get more smiles per mile."
Here are the direct links for NY Times subscribers:
http://tinyurl.com/6h5ab
http://tinyurl.com/4l6jv
Thanks for all the kind words!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm using an EVCC adaptor and coupler in my S-10 conversion. All
alignment seems to be good. I also have various odd noises in the drive
train at different forward speeds. Even with the transmission in
neutral, if the clutch is engaged I hear many interesting noises in the
transmission. With the clutch disengaged, there is barely any sound.
Most of the noise is coming from the transmission itself. I have put in
temporary torque reaction bracing from the transmission to adaptor plate
bolts down to the lower A arm mounting bolts. This keeps the
transmission from rocking around during take off in first gear and
during shifts. Of course, these solid steel straps are also
transmitting all the mechanical noise to the frame and then to the cab.
You might want to check your motor mounts to make sure they are realy
isolated mechanically. The neutral noise is all bearing sounds,
whirring and whooshing. When driving, espcially in first gear, I can
hear clearly the gear teeth cogging together, espcially under load.
Then there is the back slap noises when coasting. The motor doesn't
take up the gear train lash when it isn't powered, so I hear an
oscillating noise. Then there is the noises of the new kevlar clutch.
It growls when the clutch pedal is in motion, either to engage or disengage.
My point here is that your noises may be entirely normal, just amplified
because there is no engine/exaust noises to cover them up and you may
not have good mechanical isolation between the drive train and the
body/frame of the car.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> > Something else you could try, if you are going to
> > take the adapter out
> > anyway, is to take it to EA and have them check it
> > for symetry and proper
> > sizing?
> Flywheel was machined down. Should be good...
Hopefully just verifying the obvious here, but was the flywheel balanced
after it was machined down? Those are two different operations.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NPR Science Friday doing hydrogen cars right now. 12.30pm
Call in show.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >What weather conditions can an EV tolerate? Winter weather is rough
> >on vehicles in Wisconsin. Lots of salt and sand on the roads, 25
> >degrees below zero, ice rain sleet snow slush, and muddy. Can an EV
> >be built to withstand dust, sand, dirt, mud, water? What about
> >fording?
Short trips aren't a problem - after all, you generally leave the charger
plugged in, which means you can run heat or AC off 120/240vac, and lots of
insulation will keep the batteries warm, but long trips will be a different
matter - running down the pack *and* wanting it to also keep itself and/or the
cab warm is going to be quite a drain. You can run an EV through anything you
can run an ICE as long as you build it well. Most EV'ers try to eliminate as
much excess weight as possible to get the most range, but then you also can
work on lowering the aero drag, rolling resistance, gear and other
drags...takes a bit of thinking through!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I'm just about ready to call this list quits, and sign off for good. How many
times have I
and others begged our co-listers to keep their political views to themselves,
and stay on
topic? Now, here comes the new 'sneaky' trend that several have recently used.
You know
who you are, and you know the drill.....you come on, blather on bashing this
person, then
this one, touting your political beliefs, then, you say...'Oh, sorry, I better
not discuss
politics', or 'Please take any further discussion of this topic off-list'....as
if saying
that after you've had your say, makes it all 'OK'. It doesn't! The list charter
is
clear... NO POLITICS.
Intentionally violating the list charter and the wishes of others by being
political and
taking your shots, then hiding behind a closing comment that you 'think' makes
it all OK,
doesn't cut it.
Examples:
John Bryan:
> There was one called Fahrenheit 9/11 that looked awefully interesting....I
> then approached
> a very attractive woman who was standing on the curb and said
> "quite a movie huh?". She replied that "everyone should watch it before they
> vote".
>
Bob Rice:
> Govt consperesy here? Of course they will go off in a
> tirade over the last prez #$%^&! NOBODY here voted for "W"around here in
> CT. Watched "Farenheit 911" again, on DVD . God HELP America. OK I'll quit
> ranting here. This is a EV List, not politcs.
>
>
Chris Tromley:
> I'm not so sure he should
> leave Bush alone yet though....prove beyond any doubt that it's perfectly OK
> to be an
> evil, murderous, thieving despot, as long as you play nice and make your vast
> oil
> reserves available to the US. It *is* all about oil. Sorry, I know that's
> OT and political, but I'm feeling pretty pi**ed off too. Please take any
> further discussion of this topic off-list.
>
Thankfully, David Dymaxion posted the following:
> Please, no political firestorm on the EVDL. I'd love it if any of the
> NEDRA greats could set Rush Limbaugh straight about EVs being slow
> and unloved!
>
This, is how to state an opinion and make a call to action. Notice, he did not
bash
anyone, he did not rant on and on about politics, and he was still able to make
his point.
To further underscore this, note that I 'am' a fan of Rush, but since I do not
blindly
agree with all he says, and, since I feel he is way off here, I'm taking David's
suggestion to heart and am crafting a response.
It pains me to see people I consider close EV friends, good guys who are
welcome and hang
out here at the Wayland EV laboratory and juice bar, posting political rants on
the list.
I must tell you all, there's a lot of lip biting on this end of the data
stream, and
there's a lot I'd like to let loose with, but I resist, and I will continue to
do so.
What's it going to take, to make you guys simply stop? The EV List is supposed
to be a
fun, enlightening and informative place where we can all get together in our
common bond
that is our love for EVs. It's a place where newbies can get educated, a place
where racers
share what they've learned at the track, a place where you can find hard-to-get
parts, a
place where you can ask others who may have done what you're considering doing,
a place where
brilliant engineers are happy to answer questions, and it's a place where
friends are
made. Please, don't turn it into an unfriendly place by posting stuff that has
no business here.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
>
> I always put ventilation fans blowing into a
> batt
> box to keep H2 problems down rather than sucking
> air
> out.
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
this is ok only if your battery box is either well
sealed, or not near your passenger compartment. The
danger of fans blowing into the box, is that it will
pressurize the box slightly and your H2 will end up
wherever you have leaks.
If your fan 'pulls' on the box, then slight leaks in
the box are no problem and you know where the H2 is
going.
In either case you should be using a brushless fan.
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> What's it going to take, to make you guys simply stop? The EV List is
supposed to be a
> fun, enlightening and informative place where we can all get together in
our common bond
> that is our love for EVs. It's a place where newbies can get educated, a
place where racers
> share what they've learned at the track, a place where you can find
hard-to-get parts, a
> place where you can ask others who may have done what you're considering
doing, a place where
> brilliant engineers are happy to answer questions, and it's a place where
friends are
> made. Please, don't turn it into an unfriendly place by posting stuff that
has no business here.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
>
I'll Second that motion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is what I have sent:
======================================
To whom it may concern:
No one regulates fues consumption by
regulating emissions as Ford claims,
so your litigations are not well grounded.
Yes, you cannot go below certain level
for emissions unless you cut down the
power of engine, but the fuel does not
have to be a gasoline. If you cannot
further reduce pollution with existing
fuel to comply with the law,
CHOOSE OTHER TYPE OF FUEL.
Electricity is the best one, it has
been proven by GM and others many
times. Technology exists today: EV1 is a
good example. Despite GM's claims, people
LOVED the car and want more of them.
I have heard that manufacturers do not
offer alternative fuel (like electric)
vehicles because can't make business
case to fit their business model.
Please consider revise your business model
then. If there is large demand for such
vehicles (and there is, it is known
verifiable fact), something must be wrong
with that business model.
I hope you will listen to the consumers
approving with their wallets for what
you, as a manufacturer, do and what you
don't do for us.
Regards,
Victor
Electric Vehicle driver
======================================
Sherry Boschert wrote:
The following site has made it easy to compose and
send letters to car company officials urging them to
drop their lawsuit against California's clean air
requirements:
http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/car_company_lawsuit/i5kw6w2ojm37w7#
Every little bit helps.
=====
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Auto Association
415-681-7716
www.sfeaa.org
There are 941 electric vehicles and neighborhood electric vehicles in San
Francisco (DMV statistics). Driving with no gas, no oil, no noise, no emissions
-- no kidding!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Felix Gardner wrote:
Steve Clunn, or any one,
I have a 20 mile commute to work one way, I drive on the highway at
about 60 to 75 miles an hour, what rating of a motor and how large of
a battery pack would it take to move a 6030 lbs 4x4 vehicle that far
and still get me home?
A pusher trailer vs a generator trailer, which would have more success
in assisting a small EV conversion car travel 250 miles, 60 to 75 mph?
COnsidewr another cleanest option - battery trailer. You can
have two, swapping them out as cordless tool's battery.
This way you still never use gasoline as you would with any other
type of trailer.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVers
I am a newbie and do appreciate the technical knowledge that can be tapped
on this list. Lets keep it that way. I agree lets lose the politics. We all
know the situation.
Could we also lose all this LED headlights too, they immediately make me hit
the delete key!
Onwards
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> What's it going to take, to make you guys simply stop? The EV List is
> supposed to be a
> > fun, enlightening and informative place where we can all get together in
> our common bond
> > that is our love for EVs. It's a place where newbies can get educated, a
> place where racers
> > share what they've learned at the track, a place where you can find
> hard-to-get parts, a
> > place where you can ask others who may have done what you're considering
> doing, a place where
> > brilliant engineers are happy to answer questions, and it's a place
where
> friends are
> > made. Please, don't turn it into an unfriendly place by posting stuff
that
> has no business here.
> >
> > See Ya...John Wayland
> >
>
> I'll Second that motion.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have strong political opinions aligned with many on
the list and have good reason to believe my opinions
based on my experiance and investigation of a wide
variety of resources. However, I have to agree with
John on this subject. We could use up a terabyte of
information going back and forth on opinions even on
this list!!! Hopefully we can stick to the EV format
and keep this list the great resource that it is.
Don't give up John, your one of the great information
resources on this list and we appreciate your EV
insite. While we may not agree on politics we
certainly agree on EV's, whether it is for
environmental reasons, technology or just a hobby.
Rod
16 years into EV's and 8 on the list!
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm just about ready to call this list quits, and
> sign off for good. How many times have I
> and others begged our co-listers to keep their
> political views to themselves, and stay on
> topic? Now, here comes the new 'sneaky' trend that
> several have recently used. You know
> who you are, and you know the drill.....you come on,
> blather on bashing this person, then
> this one, touting your political beliefs, then, you
> say...'Oh, sorry, I better not discuss
> politics', or 'Please take any further discussion of
> this topic off-list'....as if saying
> that after you've had your say, makes it all 'OK'.
> It doesn't! The list charter is
> clear... NO POLITICS.
>
> Intentionally violating the list charter and the
> wishes of others by being political and
> taking your shots, then hiding behind a closing
> comment that you 'think' makes it all OK,
> doesn't cut it.
>
> Examples:
>
> John Bryan:
>
> > There was one called Fahrenheit 9/11 that looked
> awefully interesting....I then approached
> > a very attractive woman who was standing on the
> curb and said
> > "quite a movie huh?". She replied that "everyone
> should watch it before they vote".
> >
>
> Bob Rice:
>
>
> > Govt consperesy here? Of course they will go off
> in a
> > tirade over the last prez #$%^&! NOBODY here
> voted for "W"around here in
> > CT. Watched "Farenheit 911" again, on DVD . God
> HELP America. OK I'll quit
> > ranting here. This is a EV List, not politcs.
> >
> >
> Chris Tromley:
>
> > I'm not so sure he should
> > leave Bush alone yet though....prove beyond any
> doubt that it's perfectly OK to be an
> > evil, murderous, thieving despot, as long as you
> play nice and make your vast oil
> > reserves available to the US. It *is* all about
> oil. Sorry, I know that's
> > OT and political, but I'm feeling pretty pi**ed
> off too. Please take any
> > further discussion of this topic off-list.
> >
>
> Thankfully, David Dymaxion posted the following:
>
>
> > Please, no political firestorm on the EVDL. I'd
> love it if any of the
> > NEDRA greats could set Rush Limbaugh straight
> about EVs being slow
> > and unloved!
> >
>
> This, is how to state an opinion and make a call to
> action. Notice, he did not bash
> anyone, he did not rant on and on about politics,
> and he was still able to make his point.
> To further underscore this, note that I 'am' a fan
> of Rush, but since I do not blindly
> agree with all he says, and, since I feel he is way
> off here, I'm taking David's
> suggestion to heart and am crafting a response.
>
> It pains me to see people I consider close EV
> friends, good guys who are welcome and hang
> out here at the Wayland EV laboratory and juice bar,
> posting political rants on the list.
> I must tell you all, there's a lot of lip biting on
> this end of the data stream, and
> there's a lot I'd like to let loose with, but I
> resist, and I will continue to do so.
>
> What's it going to take, to make you guys simply
> stop? The EV List is supposed to be a
> fun, enlightening and informative place where we can
> all get together in our common bond
> that is our love for EVs. It's a place where newbies
> can get educated, a place where racers
> share what they've learned at the track, a place
> where you can find hard-to-get parts, a
> place where you can ask others who may have done
> what you're considering doing, a place where
> brilliant engineers are happy to answer questions,
> and it's a place where friends are
> made. Please, don't turn it into an unfriendly place
> by posting stuff that has no business here.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
>
>
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Rod Hower wrote:
I have strong political opinions aligned with many on
the list and have good reason to believe my opinions
based on my experiance and investigation of a wide
variety of resources. However, I have to agree with
John on this subject. We could use up a terabyte of
information going back and forth on opinions even on
this list!!! Hopefully we can stick to the EV format
and keep this list the great resource that it is.
Don't give up John, your one of the great information
resources on this list and we appreciate your EV
insite. While we may not agree on politics we
certainly agree on EV's, whether it is for
environmental reasons, technology or just a hobby.
Rod
16 years into EV's and 8 on the list!
Hey Rod,
I'm mainly a lurker here but to the people interested in politics, there
are many newsgroups that get hundreds of postings a day such as: us.politics
I don't agree with any zealots because of their need to tell everyone
that they're correct.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
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May your electric karma run over all off-topic dogma...
Or, perhaps this: light up or lighten up.
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Dave,
Yeah, the wallet thing is a really good comparison for people in the
military, especially for those who live in military housing. I live in
military housing, which is actually very nice contrary to what most people
have heard, and we don't pay (directly) for the electricity we use. We don't
recieve any sort of monthly bill for power, gas, or water. Which is great
for reducing the lifetime cost of an EV, I pay nothing (again, nothing
directly, nothing is free)to fill up, but I cannot opt for green power and
residents of mil housing have no monetary incentive to conserve electricity
and believe me, nearly all of them don't even begin to try. I walk around at
night and see lights on everywhere. I have actually seen people with window
air conditioning units running and windows or doors open in other other
parts of the house. And me being so passionate about conservation it just
drives me crazy. I have installed cfls in my home and when they are on sale
buy them for my friends and neighbors and have succeeded in convincing a
couple about the importance of conservation. Yet another wall to beat my
head against. But help is on the way. The military is privatizing housing
and one thing the civilians who are now running it plan to do is to install
electricity meters on the houses, monitor usage for a year or two to
establish a baseline (if that's the correct term) and then if you average
over that baseline, you pay the difference, if you conserve and come in
under baseline you get a refund. A great market-base solution.
John Shelton
-----Original Message-----
From: Gnat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:33 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: save the EV Rangers
Hi John
I've found most people don't give a damn about most great things.
They think more along the lines of if it look good or what does
it cost.
It sounds like the peeps you were talking to won't understand anything but
how it might affect their wallet. Perhaps you might be able to clue them
in slightly if you compared direct operating costs per mile or something
equally unfair to an ice. ie it only cost me 30 cents to fill up (charge
etc)or it only costs me so many cents per mile compared to so many $$ per
mile for gas.
You don't need to try and feed them the full meal deal, they will just choke
on it and zone out on you. Give them just enough info to hook em and then
give them the rest of the info down the road. If you do it this way they
will
be interested enough to listen the next time (if they want to), otherwise
you
can talk to them forever and they just think you are some kind of looney
with
a pet project to force on them.
Learned the hard way.
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: January 13, 2005 7:18 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: save the EV Rangers
>
>
> I know I shouldn't but I can't help it. I'm pissed off and dejected
> too when it comes to telling anyone about my EV, biodiesel, renewable
> energy, etc. When I mention I have an EV, the somewhat informed people
> respond with "An Insight or a Prius?" Then I explain to the that those
> aren't EV, they're just efficient gas powered cars. Then I explain the EV
> and half the people look at me like I'm crazy to invest so much
> money/effort/time when the same people wouldn't think twice about someone
> who modifies their ICE to go faster and get LESS mileage and the
> other half
> usually respond with "How do you drive really far?" That's when I ask them
> how much they drive every day, which is usually within the range of an EV,
> and I tell them I have a 13 mile round trip commute and the
> grocery store is
> 2 miles away and I have an ICE car for long trips, more than half of my
> driving. Incredibly some people have actually taken offense at EVs, as
> though they are un-American. Then, finally, many of the nicer
> people wind up
> the conversation with, "Well that's a really good thing to do,"
> which can be
> interpreted as "That's a really good thing for YOU to do, I'd never do
> anything like that." It's the wrong thing to do, but lately my
> attitude has
> been "Why waste my time." Part of the problem is the people I work with. I
> work with mostly good-old-boys who believe trucks and SUVs are the most
> patriotic vehicle you can drive and see no connection between
> deployments to
> the Middle East and their vehicles.
> A really smart friend of mine, who would have an EV if he had any
> car at all, explained to me that for someone to accept the idea
> of EVs, the
> have to change too much in their lives; mentally, fiscally, etc. They have
> to accept that the greenhouse effect is real (many still don't
> even thought
> the oil companies admit it is), they have to accept that our
> future security
> depends on an independent source of energy, that we don't really
> care about
> democracy in the Middle East, that they don't have to worry about what the
> Joneses think, that their 2nd car CAN be a battery powered car
> instead of a
> trophy ICE, that SUVs are not safer in an accident, etc., etc.
> And then they
> are finally ready to sell the Expedition and buy a converted car
> or convert
> their own. If there are any hard sci-fi fans out there you might
> have heard
> of this guy. Stephen Baxter wrote a book where an extraordinary event
> happened and a giant object appeared in the sky. People who saw couldn't
> look at it for extended periods of time not because it was too bright but
> because their human brains couldn't handle such a strange anomaly. They
> would have to physically look away from it. That's how I perceive a lot of
> people react to EVs. The idea is so radically different and goes against
> what they have been taught and believe and have learned that they need to
> make arguments against them or make a deflecting joke about 50 mile
> extension cords. Not only are they mistaken in much of what they
> believe and
> know, they don't want to be corrected.
> I'm sorry to vent.
>
> John Shelton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Jarrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 07:00 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: save the EV Rangers
>
>
>
>
> Felix Gardner wrote:
> > First it was the EV1 and now the Ranger. I didn't even know about
> > what happened to the EV1 until two days ago. This makes me so angry!
> > I don't even drive an EV, but it is just so . . . . AHGHAAAA!!!
>
> *SNIP*
>
> And therein lies the problem. Your'e interested in EVs (else you would
> not be here) and *you* had not heard about what happened to the EV1
> until recently.
>
> The vast majority of the population has no clue either, in fact, when I
> try to tell people what happened to the EV1 *THEY DON'T BELIEVE ME*.
> Even my friends seem to think I'm some left wing conspiracy theorist.
>
> It's only after the fact when I tell them to look it up for themselves
> that they start to believe me.
>
> The auto companies have plenty of money for ads saying what they want
> and to sweep what they don't under the carpet. And that's a shame.
> Most people that have even heard of the EV1 believe it was a failed
> experiment because it didn't work or people didn't want it.
>
> Don't even get me started on fool cells...
>
>
> *SIGH* Sorry to vent, just generally pi**ed at the world right now. I
> have no EV, there likely isn't one in my very near future, and the
> powers that be like it that way.
>
> James
>
>
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Lumens,candlepower,footcandles,bright shinny stuff
http://www.theledlight.com/lumens.html
Marco Michon Fresno,CA
where the Sierra Nevada Mountians are Hidden(smog)
www.austinev.org/evalbum/487.html
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Gardner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: EV Pusher Trailers?
> Steve Clunn, or any one,
>
> I have a 20 mile commute to work one way, I drive on the highway at
> about 60 to 75 miles an hour, what rating of a motor and how large of
> a battery pack would it take to move a 6030 lbs 4x4 vehicle that far
> and still get me home?
to go 20 miles at 60 mph will take 20 minits at 50 mph it will take 24minits
, now what is getting there 4 minits faster worth ? Is it worth $2 more ,
How about not plugging in at work , what is that worth ? off the top of my
head a 6030 lbs vehicle sound like 2 ev's so your going to need twice the
battery pack as most ev's would have to do the same . .
>
> I am planning on attempting two conversions this summer. One light
> speedy long range transport (for my beautiful mate Nikki) and one
> heavy durable vehicle for winter time and recreational use (mostly for
> me).
Light would go with speedy or long range but both is not so easy . trying to
make one do it all may require lots of money, maybe more that what it would
cost to do 2.
I want to experience the challenges of different weight classes
> and different vehicle uses and demands. I might do three conversions,
> my buddy has a little Honda that he would like to upgrade.
>
Sounds like your ready to start a conversion business, :-)
> Most of the conversions I am finding are of small to medium light
> vehicles designed for speed. I have seen a tractor conversion,
> totally blew me away amazing. Lawn tractors, dragstors, but no large
> trucks, not even medium trucks with 4x4.
allot is just what you get used to ,. My lawn trailer stays hooked to my
Mazda PU most of the time , I'm probable close to your 6000 lbs with it. I
have never pulled my trailer 60 mph although I think it would , o to 60 with
the trailer hooked behind :-0 , no won't do it , got to many thing to fix
already , . , I could see your truck with 30 to 40 golf cart batteries
doing your 40 mile run at 55 , but it won't be a zippy truck at 6000lbs,
I am thinking that I will
> first start with a small speedy road cutter.
ah that sounds good .
Then a S-10 or Ranger
> with 4x4.
>
Are you thinking that one of these weights 4000 without the motor . ? and
adding 1/3 battery weight.
Steve clunn
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I removed the gas lines for the 300zx and now I have 2 ideas of what I could
have use them for. there is little room in the front for anything and
putting the water pump for the zillia in the back would have been nice, the
long lines would have done the cooling . I've been thinking of running the
water hose somewhere where it can be seen easly so it can be seen that the
water pump is working . Might make a nice display , for the guy who like
lots of gauges, a loop of hose somwhere on the dash . the other gas line
could have been used for the vaccume pump which could have been stuck in the
back , so when putting on the brakes that farting sound of the pump ( you
know the sound I mean) would be coming from the back of the car. .....Joe 6
pack "Look an electric car passing gas , now that's a sweet sound ,,got to
get me one" . .
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A 1979 Mazda Rx7, 9" ADC, Curtis 1221B, vacuum brakes, K & W charger,
Todd PC30 DC-DC converter.
Item number: 4518618541
New set of batteries. Car is located in Kansas.
Good starter car for people new to EV's. :)
Opening bid is $4,500.00.
--
Mark
(it's not mine, but looks interesting)
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> > I have a 20 mile commute to work one way, I drive on the highway at
> > about 60 to 75 miles an hour, what rating of a motor and how large of
> > a battery pack would it take to move a 6030 lbs 4x4 vehicle that far
> > and still get me home?
>
> to go 20 miles at 60 mph will take 20 minits at 50 mph it will take 24minits
> , now what is getting there 4 minits faster worth ? Is it worth $2 more ,
> How about not plugging in at work , what is that worth ? off the top of my
> head a 6030 lbs vehicle sound like 2 ev's so your going to need twice the
> battery pack as most ev's would have to do the same . .
Steve's got the hands-on knowledge about costs, time, and parts. If that 3-ton
vehicle is diesel, you might save more (resources, money and time) if you leave
it ICE and try an SVO conversion or just use biodiesel - there *are* EVs this
big, but there's a lot of energy involved in getting them made and moving them
down the road.
> > I am planning on attempting two conversions this summer. One light
> > speedy long range transport (for my beautiful mate Nikki) and one
> > heavy durable vehicle for winter time and recreational use (mostly for
> > me).
>
> Light would go with speedy or long range but both is not so easy . trying to
> make one do it all may require lots of money, maybe more that what it would
> cost to do 2.
Depends on your definition of "long distance" and of "speedy"...and is light
like a few hundred pounds of enclosed scooter or light like a Saturn with
Orbitals?
> I want to experience the challenges of different weight classes
> > and different vehicle uses and demands. I might do three conversions,
> > my buddy has a little Honda that he would like to upgrade.
> >
> Sounds like your ready to start a conversion business, :-)
Always a good idea to read likely entries at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ -
a lot of real-life numbers, both of performance and cost (not to mention time
and effort) and occasionally, some owner/builder feedback to take to heart.
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