EV Digest 4032
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NO POLITICS - READ THIS (just ban them- zero tolerance)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) jump starting an EV was: Ken Trough in Edmonton newspaper
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: conversion body modifications
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Transmissions
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV Marriage made in Heaven - WHAT No Comments ???
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 92 geo tracker for sale
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Power steering
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by "Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Transmissions
by "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: INDUSTRIAL REMOTE CONTROL SYS
by "larry_cindy.balogh " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Tricky: Charger sizing for 24V 300Ah Concorde's
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) AGM Deep Cycle Batteries DCS-100L
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fw: EV Charter (Re: Politics v. advocacy was: Re: Backdoor Politics)
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tricky: Charger sizing for 24V 300Ah Concorde's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) PFC30 Rescues Dead Forklift
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David-
I propose that instead of warning, just ban people. No warnings. There
have been enough warnings. There is a list charter. Rules are made to
be enforced. Just drop them immediately.
Seth
Whatever you do, quit bellyaching about politics. We have what we
have,
whether you agree with it or not. If you like it, support it; if you
don't,
work to change it. But when it comes to EVs - just forget it. Get out
there and make something!
David Roden
Assistant EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:13:02 -0800
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
> I plan to use the bike 250 to 300 days a year, pretty much whenever
> it is dry and the forecast is to be dry. Most of my one way trips
> outside of work are less than ten miles in length.
All kinds of hub motors and Currie-type bolt-ons to peruse. What is
available
locally, or is there nothing around you can "see and touch"? [Buying
sight-unseen is one major drawback of the internet] Do you already have a
bike
you ride and are comfortable on? I have a "Chinese Junk" scooter that can
give
me 30mph for 10-12mi, but it can't handle very steep hills, being a 500
watt
model geared for 30mph! A higher-wattage version would be another
alternative
to consider, though.
You know what the oldtimers of the list say: don't daydream, go out and
make it/buy it/ build it and get on the road!
I will have to go to LA soon where I can test drive one. Hopefully there
will be a few stairs nearby to push it upward. This stair climbing issue has
been something i have been wrestling with.
I think most likely I will buy first to gain ebike experience. Then I can
think about building.
PS: Isn't Gail a member of the LVEVA?
I'm not sure, I havent gotten to meet her.
Thank you for your positive words. Regards. A.K.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
My Jetta had one of the weakest 12 V batteries I have
ever seen (lawn tractor battery) and would run flat
any time it was left for more than a few days in the
winter.
Rather than use an outside battery, my solution was to
connect a couple leads to the nearest 12 V worth of
traction batteries and use those to 'jump start' the
EV. It worked well and all you need is a couple
lengths of wire. Of course, it means you lose your HV
isolation for a couple of seconds but i can live with
that.
My other (sparkier) solution when i didn't have wire
lengths or didn't feel like opening the battery box
was just to (carefully) lay the blade of an old screw
driver across contacts of the primary contactor. It
sparks a bit, but immediately the DC fires up and
provides enough current to pull in that contactor and
hold it in. voila...ev is 'running' .
the second method provided lots of entertainment for
my passengers who didn't always understand how I could
'jump start' my car with only a screwdriver.
glad to hear you made it home.
~Fortunat
--- Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey, maybe I had drained my little 12 volt battery
> by leaving the headlights on. Sure enough, that's
> what I had done, but
> it did not recover enough in 30 minutes to pull in
> the main contactor.
> The dentist office was in a mall, so I went to Radio
> Shack and bought a
> couple of cheap lantern batteries and some jumper
> wires. I turned the
> key on, then touched my lantern battery jump starter
> to the aux battery
> terminals. I was rewarded with that blessed clunk
> of the main contactor
> pulling in, and with it the dc-dc that would quickly
> restore my little
> aux battery to life. When I got home I rewarded it
> with a nice long 1
> amp top-up. Out at the cottage I have a cheap 12
> volt flashlight with a
> small agm. I think I'll wire in a 12 volt plug to
> it so I can jump
> start from the cigar lighter.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmoonton
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I put an aluminum plate where the radiator went. I put the DC/DC there and
the controller. On the front side I put the controller heatsink. The back
side hasn't seen a drop or water. Works very well. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 10:01 PM
Subject: conversion body modifications
Experienced EV converters (or others with an opinion.)
In planning the conversion of my truck I have been reading Convert It and
Build your own electric vehicle. In build you own..., the author discusses
the reductions in the coefficient of drag possible by sealing off the
engine compartment.
Do many converters do this, and if so how?
John O'Connor
He with ICE parts littering the garage floor in Sacramento, California.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might help if you revealed your location and use. If you live in Fresno
or especially Modesto or Sacramento you can leave it in second and do most
of your driving. For San Francisco I used 1st and 2nd & sometimes 3rd for
the Freeway above 45mph. If you leave it in 2nd it acts like an automatic.
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Gardner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 10:44 PM
Subject: Transmissions
EVDL,
I have always disliked automatic transmissions, and preferred manual
over automatic. Will someone explain to me how much of a hassle it is
to use an automatic transmission with an EV, and what the pros and
cons are.
I understand that manual transmissions are the way to go with EV. Can
an EV work without a clutch, if so what are the advantages and
disadvantages? Are
EV harder on transmissions than ICE?
I would like to know about CVT. Are they efficient? Do they actually
work, if so how do they function? Can they be optimized customized
and modified? Are there any on the market, if so are they expensive,
where could I get one? What RPM HP and how much torque can they
handle?
Felix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/545.html I modified this Vego to have two
motors and an upgrade from 22ah to 34ah. I am 250 pounds and this scooter
will take any hill around my house. I live near Bernal hill in San
Francisco and the scooter was made especially to climb hills. It still goes
the stock speed(18mph) but with twice the torque. I put three big batteries
and two controllers where the old batteries and controller went. The forth
battery is under the swingarm. It is a 24v system with the torque of 48v.
I figure with good batteries I should exceed 15 mpc. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:07 PM
Subject: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
Greetings,
The question here is to buy or to build. I am looking to use an
electric bicycle type of EV for the following.
I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
speed of 20 mph.
Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
battery pack.
I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
mode at all times.
I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
speed for that.
I plan to use the bike 250 to 300 days a year, pretty much whenever
it is dry and the forecast is to be dry. Most of my one way trips
outside of work are less than ten miles in length.
If I buy, I am most interested in one of the Tidalforce bikes,
probably the IO stepthru model. I have considered an Iacocca folding
ebike as well.
If I build, Im probably looking at installing a hub motor setup on
a mountain bike with road tires.
36 volts is the lowest voltage I would use. I plan to use nimh
batteries, maybe liions in the future. I'm willing to have multiple
battery packs and chargers.
I live in a second story apartment. Hopefully with a little power I
could power the bike slowly up the stairs. That is, to walk it up the
stairs with some power to the wheels. Of course I wouldn't attempt to
ride it upstairs.
I consider my planned use for the bike to be severe service,
multiple stoplights, roads are pretty smooth, and using it day in and
day out. I have no plans to use the bike off road. I hope i can find
something that will hold up over time and give me years of trouble
free service.
I do realize that battery packs and tires will have to be replaced
every so often. I hope that the bike itself, motor, controller, etc
would not fail on me quickly. In short I am looking for something
quite durable.
This will be my first EV.
Hope this helps, and I thank you in advance for your wisdom and
your help. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV. Board member Las
Vegas Electric Vehicle Association.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geezzzz.... I thought someone just one, would have thought this was
Good News, and made a few comments, but all I see are reverberations
about who is RED-state and who is BLUE-state, and everyone seems to want
to weigh in and let folks know, and so on... and now THERE Ya got
ME doing it too....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
I noticed a 92 geo tracker for sale on the gsa site
http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/
get in and search by state for Massachusetts. Other than a broken
windshield appears intact.
bidding is at $1000 and will close on the 18th.
Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Power steering gearboxes are just manual gearboxes with a piston on each
end to help push. Usually the ratio is a lot less. example
My PU had manual steering at 4 turns lock to lock, I replaced it with a
gearbox from a power steering version of my pickup and just put some
fluid in it(< 1/2 full) and installed a jumper hose from input to
output. In my situation, I needed the 2.5 turn lock to lock for
autocrossing but didn't want the pump.
Change the alignment!
I then played with reduceing the caster setting on the front end
alignment. Stock it was at some number greater than 5 and a lot of
effort required.
At 1 degree it felt like a MG midget, It could turn on a dime but man
was it a full time job keeping it straight at high speed, I settled for
2 degrees and it is like a sports car.
<extranous info>
how this works. the caster is the angle from vertical that a line
drawn througn the upper and lower ball joint or strut to ground where
tire touches.
Because of this angle turning the vehicle raises the corner, this
makes the weight of the vehicle try to straighten the steering. If you
have added significant weight up front then you should reduce caster to
get back to stock "feel" anyway
Toe can also be used to help turn in, but I only recommend that for
track use, it wears tires and causes the car to drag. Toe should be set
to stay "in" during breaking or you will have a wandering beast during
hard breaking. Replace all the front bushings with hard to very firm
ones and you can reduce toe-in fro better milage
</extranous info>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pertaining to the stair climbing issue...
I saw this as a challenge and decided to try it out.
First, here is the specs on my home made Ebike:
26" mountain bike ($110 from one of the big box stores)
54lbs total weight (minus rider)
300 watt motor
24 volt NiMH battery pack
20 mile range
20mph max (bending down towards handlebars, 18mph sitting up) 20% grade
continuous hill climbing (for miles with no overheating) accessories:
speedometer etc., headlight, and Medusa power analyzer.
I started down the stairs and quickly found out that I cannot hold back this
bikes weight. Applying the rear brake, so the wheel was in an almost locked
position, allowed me to comfortably guide the bike down. Letting go of the
brake even for an instant will allow the bike to quickly accelorate and
maybe get away from you...be careful.
Now...going up had a slight surprise. It wasn't too bad at first. I had to
lightly apply the accelorator and the bike started going up the stairs. When
the whole bike was in the stairwell the back tire would hop and spin as it
was going from stair to stair. Mind you that if I were riding on level the
ground the speed would be 2-3 mph.
Well, I made it to the toop and what do you think I saw....yes, black tire
marks on the corner of each step that the tire hit as I was going up!!!
Two things I found out. One is that the 26" frame is maybe a bit too high
for manuvering up and down stairs (I'm 5' 9"). Second, I think I need
white tires for my white carpet.
P.S. I was able to get the tire marks out with alllllllot of
rubbing...whew!
Also, mine is pedal less! Here is a pic http://timgulden.fotopic.net/
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
This stair climbing issue has been something i have been wrestling with.
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think CVT technology is mature enough yet
to meet the needs of anything but the most tame
of vehicles. As for automatic transmissions, there
are solutions to make them work; however, you pay
a price in efficiency when comparing to a manual
transmission.
There are a few manual transmissions that do not
require a clutch - of course, they are racing
trannies and are a tad bit pricey. I'm putting a
Jerico 2 speed in my project - no clutch and no
fly wheel. The only disadvantage is that it would
be very difficult to downshift in these types of arrangements.
Jerico makes trannies from 2 speed all the way up
to 5 speed. Richmond makes a 2 speed as well, but
I'm not sure if they use dog gears which might be more
of a flat shifting type of arrangement.
Lenco also makes a manual type of tranny that
works very much like an automatic. These are
extremely pricey and it's unclear is they are suited
to daily driving. Some other EV'ers may know.
--Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sat Jan 15 22:44:29 2005
Subject: Transmissions
EVDL,
I have always disliked automatic transmissions, and preferred manual
over automatic. Will someone explain to me how much of a hassle it is
to use an automatic transmission with an EV, and what the pros and
cons are.
I understand that manual transmissions are the way to go with EV. Can
an EV work without a clutch, if so what are the advantages and
disadvantages? Are
EV harder on transmissions than ICE?
I would like to know about CVT. Are they efficient? Do they actually
work, if so how do they function? Can they be optimized customized
and modified? Are there any on the market, if so are they expensive,
where could I get one? What RPM HP and how much torque can they
handle?
Felix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice, and a very nice looking E20, I might add. Our E15 looks rather
down and dirty. It needs a PWM controller, as it can pull TOO much
current with the"click-bang" controller.
Seth
On Jan 16, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Tim wrote:
Pertaining to the stair climbing issue...
I saw this as a challenge and decided to try it out.
First, here is the specs on my home made Ebike:
26" mountain bike ($110 from one of the big box stores)
54lbs total weight (minus rider)
300 watt motor
24 volt NiMH battery pack
20 mile range
20mph max (bending down towards handlebars, 18mph sitting up) 20%
grade continuous hill climbing (for miles with no overheating)
accessories: speedometer etc., headlight, and Medusa power analyzer.
I started down the stairs and quickly found out that I cannot hold
back this bikes weight. Applying the rear brake, so the wheel was in
an almost locked position, allowed me to comfortably guide the bike
down. Letting go of the brake even for an instant will allow the bike
to quickly accelorate and maybe get away from you...be careful.
Now...going up had a slight surprise. It wasn't too bad at first. I
had to lightly apply the accelorator and the bike started going up the
stairs. When the whole bike was in the stairwell the back tire would
hop and spin as it was going from stair to stair. Mind you that if I
were riding on level the ground the speed would be 2-3 mph.
Well, I made it to the toop and what do you think I saw....yes, black
tire
marks on the corner of each step that the tire hit as I was going up!!!
Two things I found out. One is that the 26" frame is maybe a bit too
high for manuvering up and down stairs (I'm 5' 9"). Second, I think I
need
white tires for my white carpet.
P.S. I was able to get the tire marks out with alllllllot of
rubbing...whew!
Also, mine is pedal less! Here is a pic http://timgulden.fotopic.net/
Tim
----- Original Message ----- From: "a.k. howard"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
This stair climbing issue has been something i have been wrestling
with.
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I put away my much loved bike for a standup kick scoot w/power assist.
In 2002, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission studied kick
scooters and concluded they were twice as safe as bicycles, with most
accidents caused only by poor construction and inexperience.
Also, the smaller and foldable scooter format is *much* easier to
maneuver around indoors and up stairs etc. I commonly slide the scoot
into restaurant patios and client offices to recharge, where you would
never see a bike permitted.
I can extend range w/a second pack plugged into the charger port.
My next Draisine will be built around a hub motor as front wheel drive,
w/steering from the back as the deck will be a skateboard w/slalom
truck for the wheels... Hope to get the whole thing down to two moving
parts (the wheels).
Just my 2 cents Cdn. <smile>
Lock
Toronto
--- "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> The question here is to buy or to build. I am looking to use an
> electric bicycle type of EV for the following.
>
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
> I plan to use the bike 250 to 300 days a year, pretty much whenever
> it is dry and the forecast is to be dry. Most of my one way trips
> outside of work are less than ten miles in length.
>
> If I buy, I am most interested in one of the Tidalforce bikes,
> probably the IO stepthru model. I have considered an Iacocca folding
> ebike as well.
>
> If I build, Im probably looking at installing a hub motor setup on
> a mountain bike with road tires.
>
> 36 volts is the lowest voltage I would use. I plan to use nimh
> batteries, maybe liions in the future. I'm willing to have multiple
> battery packs and chargers.
> I live in a second story apartment. Hopefully with a little power I
> could power the bike slowly up the stairs. That is, to walk it up the
> stairs with some power to the wheels. Of course I wouldn't attempt to
> ride it upstairs.
> I consider my planned use for the bike to be severe service,
> multiple stoplights, roads are pretty smooth, and using it day in and
> day out. I have no plans to use the bike off road. I hope i can find
> something that will hold up over time and give me years of trouble
> free service.
> I do realize that battery packs and tires will have to be replaced
> every so often. I hope that the bike itself, motor, controller, etc
> would not fail on me quickly. In short I am looking for something
> quite durable.
>
> This will be my first EV.
> Hope this helps, and I thank you in advance for your wisdom and
> your help. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV. Board member Las
> Vegas Electric Vehicle Association.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One option would certainly be PLC's. They have become fairly inexpensive
recently. $100-200. They can be easily programed to respond to low voltage
inputs. Allen Bradley's Micrologix is toward the top of the scale, but, has
free software for programming. Direct builds one cheaper. Check with your local
community college if programming it yourself seems too intimidating! Balogh
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "SCOTT O'QUINN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:48:23 -0800
> Has anyone on the list had any experience with remote control equipment ?
> we are trying to modify a smell piece of equipment to run remotely with a
> CATTRON controller but we can't come up with controller actuator setup to
>control the hyd . ANY help would be appreciated .
> SCOTT
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at kendra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
D'oh! I only read half your post before I replied.
I would try C/8 or a bit more current for a charger. Call it 40-50A.
Slow enough that a robust 110V outlet can do it, and 220VAC can
definitely do it. If you add capacity, then a 60+ amp charger would be
good if you can tweak the current to keep the same relative rate (C/8
or whatever you are using).
Again, if you just daysail, then just a float charger of 20-30A might
be ok, as long as you don't want to discharge deeply days in a row.
Actually if you can stand the wait, and can have a cyclic charge
profile in there with it staying at float, then that should work too.
The thing about chargers is that more current capability is always
better. You never know when you want it. And programmability and
external safties are always nice.
In your case a Brusa amp-hour counter would be nice as they track small
current flow and integrate it well, so you can keep track of your SOC.
Not cheap, but worth it.
Seth
On Jan 16, 2005, at 7:16 AM, pekka wrote:
What would be a suitable amperage - talking decent switch mode
chargers - for charging a bank of AGM's at 315Ah/C20 at 24V in a
sailing boat?
The batteries get discharged rather too shallow than too deep
generally, and get charged a little by rotating the prop, when
appropriate, and a solar panel. Last summer I didn't have grid at the
dock, boat usage was low and the bank kept over 80% charge at all
times.
I anticipate/hope that I will use more of the capacity in the future
and so may need external charging.
The sizing suggestions given by manufacturers are usually for cyclic
use as in a road EV or fork lift. Do I need to charge the batteries at
30 amps or is less better? when the bank sits for a week or two and
then gets discharged to 80-60% SOC again... highly irregular charging
pattern with solar "pushing" 1A or 7-9Ah daily, prop regeneration
adding 0-4A when the wind is good.
Should I just bite my esthetic eye and add solar panels in all
impossible places? Solar is not cheap but neither are good chargers,
if I need 30A or more current capacity from one, and only every now
and then.
Do AGM's in general, or Concorde PV batteries in particular, need the
occasional hit from C3 charging current? The usage is more like
off-grid PV with the exception that solar panel capacity is pitiful
right now.
Pekka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have any knowledge or experience with these batteries? Dynasty
DCS-100L, also sold as Interstate DCS-100L. Group 29, 69 lbs, 100 A/Hr.
I am considering a 10-pack, $129 each from the local Interstate distributor
in Vancouver, WA.
<http://www.dynastybattery.com/cd_dyn/products/batteries/dcs/dcs100l.htm>
http://www.dynastybattery.com/cd_dyn/products/batteries/dcs/dcs100l.htm
<http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/products/specs/dcs100l.pdf>
http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/products/specs/dcs100l.pdf
What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions for a reasonably priced
AGM group 29 or 31 battery?
The web page says "Batteries to be mounted with 0.5 in. (1.25 cm) spacing
minimum and free air ventilation.". Mine would be mounted all right next to
each other in a heated and semi-insulated compartment. Do you think this
will cause a problem? (I can watch battery temp with a cheap-o digital
indoor/outdoor thermometer attached to the top of one battery.)
Rick Barnes
1986 Chevy Sprint "Cloud Conversion"
Aloha, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden hello,
Mark Klemkosky appears irritated at the politics on the EVDL. I sent the
attached email.
Steve Love [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 12:12 PM
Subject: EV Charter (Re: Politics v. advocacy was: Re: Backdoor Politics)
> The EV List is very good for tips and ideas on how to build an EV.
> I don't think we need more people telling what is OT (Off Topic). I think the
> charter
> needs to be more evenly applied by members for themselves.
> According to the list's charter:
> The EV Electric Vehicle Discussion Mailing List is intended to provide
> a forum to
> discuss the current state of the art and future direction of electric
> vehicles. It is
not
> intended to discuss either EV appropriateness or comparisons with other
> transportation
> primary drive modes such as the venerable internal combustion engine. Those
> discussions
> are best relegated to the appropriate usenet newsgroup.
> An electric vehicle is any vehicle which uses an electric motor as the
> primary or
> sole motive force. The energy storage device used to drive said motor can use
> any
> technology including, but not limited to, solar electric, electric battery,
> fuel cell,
> internal combustion engine coupled with a electric generator (hybrids), or any
combination
> of these.
> Production electric vehicles are currently available. Internal
> combustion engine
> vehicles can be converted to electric power. There exists a number of
> companies who
> perform this conversion. There is also a number of manufacturers of equipment
> allowing
you
> to "do it yourself."
>
> The EVTech list is another related EVDL list for more technical electrical
> 'internals'
of
> controllers, etc. It could be a great primary list. Mark, I think it may be
> exactly what
> you want.
> We don't live in a country where the Gov't bans things but it does ignore and
> de-fund
> things. The major car companies need to pay their pensions to UAW workers
> which is why
> the cars have rebates and also the 0% down finance options. They are
> incidently still
> losing money on cars. They make profit by volume sales.
> I could go on. The current funding of Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars is partly a
> government
> effort.
> Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Politics vs. advocacy (was: Re: Backdoor Politics)
>
>
> > Yawn. Again, what does this have to do about> building EV's???? This is
> > wasted
> bandwidth. Until the gov't attempts to "ban" EV's I don't think these types
> > of topics are relevant.
> > --Mark
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sat Jan 15 19:25:12 2005
> > Subject: Politics vs. advocacy (was: Re: Backdoor Politics)
>
> > The thing is, the movement against EV's is happening on a bipartisan
> > basis--from Republican presidents to Democratic California governors
> > and CARB members, to senators and representatives on both side of
> > the aisle. Some have malicious intent, some are just paid off by
> > automakers and energy companies, and the rest believe the hype and
> > blindly follow whatever they read in the paper and see on TV.
> > The real problem here is automakers and oil companies. They are doing
> > whatever it takes to secure their current business plans of high-margin
> > oil and high-margin SUV's and large cars.
> > I'm all for EV advocacy on this list, including write-in campaigns to 'right
> > the wrongs' perpetrated by biased or ignorant journalists and pundits. If
> > we don't advocate for EV's, they will be taken away--first by removing
> > existing charging infrastructure, then by outlawing NEV's, and finally by
> > outlawing conversions. It can happen very quickly, and it's up to the
> > people on this list to be vigilant of these attacks.
> > I'm all for eliminating political attacks on this list, but if advocacy is
> > moved
> > to another list, then I fear that we'll be undermined without even knowing
> > about it. EV'ing won't be any fun if it gets limited to racetracks by
> > lawmakers.
> > Tim
>
> > -------
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:23:04 -0700
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Re: Backdoor Politics...come on guys, knock it off!
>
> > > There has been no objection whatsoever in the past about the
> > > discussion of identical negative EV comments made on TV, radio, or in
> > > magazines. We collectively write letters to the author or the publisher.
> > > We
> > > send educational Emails collectively. We discuss the best course of action
> > > to fix the damage done and perhaps attempt to educate the misinformed
> > > author of the negative comments.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
pekka wrote:
> What would be a suitable amperage... for charging a bank of AGM's
> at 315Ah/C20 at 24V in a sailing boat? ... Do AGM's in general,
> or Concorde PV batteries in particular, need the occasional hit
> from C3 charging current?
Your charging current sounds fine. AGMs don't "need" high charging
current, although some brands (Hawkers in particular) may benefit from
it for best cycle life.
In your case, your batteries are more likely to die of old age than from
cycle life or depth-of-discharge. So, I would work to minimize the risk
of overcharging, which will kill them from grid corrosion and water
loss.
I would use your charging power to keep the batteries at a good
long-term float voltage, about 2.20-2.25v/cell or 13.2-13.5v per 12v
battery. You won't get quite as high an amphour capacity, but they will
last years longer.
Then, equalize once a month (or whenever indicated by more than a 0.015v
difference between cells after they have sat unused for many hours). You
equalize by continuing to charge them at low current (1-2% of their
amphour capacity, or 3.1-6.3 amps for your 315ah pack) until the voltage
stops rising (which will be around 2.5v/cell). This slightly overcharges
the "full" cells but finishes charging the ones that were not quite
fully charged.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I just returned from one of my road trips away from home again, as I was in
snowy central
Oregon, in Bend, working on forklifts. This trip was a fun one as I was using
some of my
EV stuff to get a big industrial battery up on charge.
We had a customer who had moved into a brand new warehouse about four months
ago. They had
not checked into the power situation of the new building as to having 3 phase
208 vac
provisions for powering up their Crown RR5000 reach truck's big 172 amp @ 24V
charger...evidently, it did not. My regular contact, the guy who babied this
like-new
forklift, had been let go and so no one really paid too much attention to the
forklift
after the move into the new warehouse. Additionally, the parent company had
plans to
retrieve the Crown and transport it to another city to their main warehouse,
thus its time
in Bend was limited. Since it was going to be leaving, everyone thought they
could just
keep running it on the battery without bothering to charge it up....I'm not
sure 'why'
they thought this.
About two months prior, I was at this location and they had asked if the big
industrial
charger, about 350 lbs. and taking up one cubic yard of space, could be
reconfigured to
run off 240 vac single phase. I assured them it could, as all big forklift
chargers have
power input configuration panels inside, where you can select 208 3 phase, 240
vac, or 480
vac. Our company only allows the forklift techs to work on the DC side,
however, so we are
told to defer AC wiring to licensed electricians. The customer would also have
to pay for
the appropriate additional interior 240 vac wiring, too. Evidentially, this
company knew
the forklift would be leaving in the near future and knew it would see limited
use, so
paying extra dollars to rent a 120 vac low power 20 amp portable charger from
us, was an
idea passed on.
Last week, our dispatcher received a call from the Bend warehouse. They were a
bit
dismayed when, after sending a forklift hauler more than 100 miles from their
main
warehouse to pick up the lift truck, it wouldn't power up and travel due to its
now
exhausted battery. When an 8000 lb. forklift has a dead battery and there are
no beefy
pallet jacks or other lift trucks around, you don't move it! Since I had other
customers
with work for me in Bend again, and knowing that batteries and chargers are my
thing, I
was asked to take care of the problem.
Early Wednesday morning, I packed up one of my two Manzanita Micro chargers,
the Zombie's
PFC30, along with various heavy gauge DC charge cords, assorted
Anderson-to-Anderson
adapters, a few 8 and 10 gauge twist lock AC power supply extension cords, and
a box of
120 vac & 240 vac pigtail line adapters, and put them on board my service truck.
I arrived in Bend after a white knuckle climb up and over Mt. Hood on slippery
roads, in
the afternoon at 2:00. Backing up to the docks, I couldn't help but notice a
delivery van
next to me that was plugged in to a handy outdoor 120 vac receptacle. My brain
said 'EV',
but of course, it was merely a block heater plugged in (it gets cold in Bend
with its high
desert altitude). This outlet would come in handy later.
Inside the warehouse, the stand-up rider-reach forklift's 875 ahr 24V, 1675 lb.
Yuasa/Exide battery had a static reading of just 23.42V....dead as a door nail!
Typically,
these batteries read around 26.65V off load. I checked the forklift's digital
dash gauge
power meter, and it too, reported '0%' power available. The only AC power
source within
reach, was a standard 120 vac duplex outlet....no worries, I've got a PFC
charger with me,
Mr. efficiency! A warehouseman commented as I brought in the compact green box
under my
arm, "Geez, what are you gonna do with that toy?". I love this kind of stuff!
Ignoring his
jabs, I set about getting everything ready. I covered the dormant industrial
charger
(resting on its pallet just ahead of the forks, ready to be hoisted by the
forklift) with
a soft towel to avoid scratching-up my nifty charger, then placed it on top.
My PFC30, like my hot rod PFC20 under Blue Meanie's hood, has an L630 twist
lock on its AC
line side, and a red 50 amp Anderson on its DC side. I twisted-on my L630 -to-
120 vac
pigtail adapter, then connected a fairly wimpy 25 ft., 16 gauge extension cord
over to the
wall socket...the warehouseman was still chuckling, thinking it would take
weeks to get
the big battery up on charge. I knew, that even at fairly high DC charge
currents, with
such a low 24V potential for the charger to work into, the PFC30's super
efficient
operation would keep the 120 vac power draw to around 10 amps max. Next, I used
a red 50
amp Anderson -to- grey 175 amp Anderson adapter to mate my PFC30's DC output to
my 4 gauge
twin lead DC charge cord (made from a higher end automotive jumper cable set).
The far end
of the DC charge cord's grey 175 amp Anderson was plugged into yet another
adapter, my
grey 175 amp Anderson -to- red 350 amp Anderson adapter, which in turn, was
plugged into
the battery's red 350 amp Anderson...whew! With the current control knob all
the way down
and with a clamp-on ammeter to monitor current flow, I flipped up the breaker
on the
charger as it powered up. Rotating the handy 'power knob', I dialed up an easy
30 amps. I
had never pushed out anything more from this charger, as it usually outputs 25
amps or so
into the Zombie's high voltage battery pack, and, having been warned over and
over by
Rudman about how my tweaked PFC20 could blow its internal 30 amp DC fuse if I
got too
carried away, I wasn't sure how big this charger's fuse was. Hmmmm...same box,
more power,
but just what could I get away with? I knew I could tear the thing apart if I
needed to
get at the fuse, and, I do stock similar DC rated fuses on board my service
truck, so I
gambled and cranked it up more to get 35 amps of juice....the PFC30 didn't
even break a
sweat. Quick calculation.....35 amps at ~ 25V, is the same as 7 amps at 125V,
and at close
to 98% efficiency, power consumption from the wall socket through the cord had
to be just
a tad over 7 amps. I figured this was a safe level to leave things at, and
after 15
minutes on charge, the extension cord was still cold as the big battery sucked
down the
juice. Of course, being used to a 150 amp charge level, this wasn't anything
for this
battery. In fact, the rated 'finish charge' of this battery, is listed as 35
amps minimum,
and 42.5 amps max. I didn't bother to turn down the charger's cutoff point to
30V or so to
protect the battery, because at 100% discharge and with 875 ahr of capacity, it
should
take 24+ hours to get the thing filled up!
Not fully knowing how the rest of my day would turn out, and with two other
stops to make
for the day's workload, I instructed the warehouseman how to flip off the
charger's
breaker in case I didn't return before closing time. Even knowing the battery
could not
get fully charged if left on charge overnight, I didn't want to leave anything
to chance.
I called the Madman after leaving the warehouse, to ask how big the DC output
fuse was
inside my charger, and was happy to hear it was a 50 amper...cool.
I was able to return to the warehouse near 6:00 PM, and found all was well, as
after
clamping on the test meter, it showed the charger was still putting out 35 solid
amps...no overtemp lights or current reductions to report. With my conversation
with
Rudman in mind, I cranked up the current to max, and saw 41.2 amps! Close to 4
hours at 35
amps was 140 ahrs, so the battery had been brought to about 1/6 its capacity.
This
customer wasn't asking for a full charge, only enough so they could use the
lift truck to
lift and move the charger, and, be able to drive it on and off the hauler. I
was done for
the day, but was to return the next morning to do the last PM service on this
lift truck. I
still didn't want to leave it on charge overnight, so I shut things down. Since
personnel
were to arrive to work at 6:00 AM, I showed them how to flip on the breaker,
then rotate
the current control fully counter clockwise.
The next morning as I arrived on site, the business park's outdoor reader
board's
bright red LED display alternated between 8:02 AM and 18 degrees. At the
warehouse,
the charger had been jamming 40+ amps since 6:00 AM, two more hours of
charging, for a total
into the battery of 220 ahrs. I felt the 16 gauge extension cord, and it was
just a
tad warm, a testament to this charger's efficiency. I shut things down and
plugged the
battery back into the lift truck. It powered up without a hitch, indicating
about 1/3
charge level on its dash gauge. I drove the truck over and outside to the dock
to begin
the PM service...BRRRRRR! I went inside and got the charger and all the
electrical stuff,
then set it all up outside, within a couple of feet of the outdoor 'engine
block heater
outlet'. I was able to plug the charger's fat power cord, with just the L630
-to- 120 vac
pigtail adapter connected to it, directly into the outdoor outlet, so no losses
through
the 25 ft. extension cord. I turned it on for a few minutes, so it could suck
18 degree
air to cool it down in a hurry. Then, it was connected to the battery again,
where it
socked out 42.5 amps continuously. The cooling fans would come on and spin up,
just to
near instantly spin right back down, as if to say, "Geez, it's cold out here!"
The PM took
an hour and a half, then with paperwork duties and talking with the customer,
another half
hour was added, so the battery got a two hour charge at 42.5 amps. With this 85
ahrs added
and minimal juice having been pulled driving and operating the truck the short
time I did,
I figured 300 ahrs were put back into the battery. The dash gauge agreed with
me and
showed about 40% charge level.
It was fun using one of our road going EV products to revive an industrial type
EV's
battery. The warehouseman was blown away by the small green box that had worked
so well.
He asked what it was designed for, which lead to a spirited conversation about
EVs. In
trying to give him an idea of just what the green box was capable of, I made
the following
comparison. I told him that while nearly 43 amps was impressive, it still was
far lower
than the BIG charger's capabilities. The big industrial charger was rated at
173 peak amps
into a 24V battery, but in daily charging it pretty much maxed out at 150
continuous amps.
This is where it got interesting....as I told him how the green box could
charge anything
from a 6V battery all the way to over 300V worth of batteries, his eyes
widened. Then I
gave him this scenario...take five batteries just like the one in his forklift,
put them
all in parallel (I used the example of jump starting a car battery), and the
industrial
charger's 150 amps would be divided by 5, to give 30 amps into each battery.
This concept,
he got. I then said, "So on the surface, this BIG charger has five times the
power of the
little green box." He agreed, but added that at 350 lbs. and perhaps 100 times
the size,
it certainly should have at least that much more power. Feeling proud of my new
student, I
continued with the lesson as I reminded him of the green box's ability to
charge a very
high voltage battery, like 8, 24V batteries wired in series at 192V. I told him
that when
connected to a 240 vac supply, it could jam 30 amps into each of the BIG
batteries all at
once, and that, hit him like a ton of bricks. "You mean that little box, can
put out as
much juice as two of those BIG things?" All I could say, was "Just about."
Yeah, I know the industrial charger's got this BIG isolation transformer, and
yes, I know
it has to crank out 150 amps for hours on end, but it's still cool to have a
little green
box that's so powerful, compact, and versatile.
Having done the deed at this warehouse, I had more work to do on my second day
in Bend.
The next stop was another PM service, this time on a walkie pallet jack. As I
always do, I had
a conversation with the customer to see if there were any problems they wanted
me to check out.
They asked me to see how the battery was, as they were only getting about an
hour's worth of
service before it had to plugged back in. These little jacks normally run for
4-5 hours under
heavy work loads, and up to 8 hours under moderate use. Some run off 4 six volt
golf car
batteries, some off 4 sealed AGM 6 volters, and some have the beefier single 24V
industrial battery of about 200 ahr capacity...such was the case with this
truck. The
battery was nearly four years old and had corrosion and the look of a tired
battery. It
was also pretty much on target for the average life expectancy of 3-4 years of
service.
The truck's battery was already hungry for a charge, but I loaded it down as I
tested it
out to get it fairly flat, to where it fell to 18V under a heavy lift. Again
using the
PFC30, I used my service truck's welder for the 120 vac source, which is closer
to 125
vac. With the cold ambient air for cooling, and a higher then normal voltage
for feed
juice, the PFC hit 43 amps, then settled in at around 42 amps. I timed the
charge, and
after 45 minutes the battery was near gassing and at 29 volts. Lowering the
charge rate
and allowing an absorption charge to take place, may have yielded 50 total ahrs
into the
battery, but the hand writing was on the wall telling me this battery was down
to about
1/4 its capacity.
What a great tool to have on my service truck, this little green box! It's
compact and
light weight, it's flexible to where it can run off 120 vac or 240 vac, it's
flexible to
where it can charge pretty much any battery I might run across, and it's
capable of
fairly high DC output levels. Things tend to get beat up in their life aboard a
forklift
service truck though, so it's back onto the clean shelf in my EV shop where ti
can keep
the Zombie properly fed.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
