EV Digest 4040
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Advice Needed Dynasty/Interstate DCS-100L
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVs you can buy (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers ...)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: regen...
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV1's
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: test run at -35
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Kit Car EVs
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Steve's business (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession)
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: battery voltage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: regen...
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Steve's business (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) UK EV construction
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: test run at -35
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: UK EV construction
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) New BEV for Sale to Beta Customer
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ampabout ... get packin
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rick and all,
I am using Dynasty AGMs in my Civic EV, but mine are used and blem units so
I really can't give you any accurate idea of their service life. Worse
than that, mine are a mix of the DCS-100L deep cycle ones, and the High
Rate Series ones. Yes used miss-matched batteries, I know not a great
idea, but at $20 each and with date codes of less than a year old it was
hard to resist. My plan was to use these to get the charging system sorted
out, then invest in a set of new DCS-100L one for a real pack. So far the
used ones are doing well, and I am considering different options so they
haven't been replaced.
I do have the rear set mounted on end with half-inch spacing, the front
ones are flat including two that are against each other on one side but
otherwise fully exposed. For the winter I gave the front ones a wrap of
three electric battery blankets and sweater of foam insulation. The rear
ones are just sitting against two more battery blankets. The rear ones
tend to run about 3 degrees warmer than the fronts. I have a pair of those
inside-outside thermometers, one for each pack.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Jan 2005 at 12:15, David Dymaxion wrote:
> EV car companies that are still alive (to my knowledge), that offer
> freeway-capable vehicles you can drive away: Solectria, AC
> Propulsion, and Tango (well, hopefully soon).
Solectria stopped production of the Force when GM discontinued US sales of
their glider (the Geo / Chevrolet Metro). It was a tough sell anyway, at
around $30k for an electrified $10k econobox.
Solectria still offers the Citivan electric box truck. It has a top speed of
60
mph and will carry up to 3,500 lb. You can buy a used one with only 532
miles on it for $40k.
http://www.solectria.com/products/citivan.html
If you have lots of kids to transport - say, 66 of them - and ample cash, you
might have Solectria build you a schoolbus. They come in battery electric
and true hybrid ("plug hybrid") flavors. You could drive it at 55 mph on the
highway, and go 60 miles on battery power alone, though probably not both
at the same time. No idea of the cost.
htp://www.solectria.com/products/buses.html
AC Propulsion? No current offerings, except for a $265,000 T-Zero, the last
of the breed. However, they promise they'll be selling Scion conversions this
year. Time will tell.
Tango? It may have a good chance in Europe. In North America, who
knows?
> What has surprised me is that kit car companies (to my knowledge)
> don't sell electric versions of their cars.
I don't know of any current ones, but then I'm not a kit car hobbyist. Maybe
someone else knows.
There have been some in the past. Bradley made an electric version of their
GT, a VW-based kitcar, about 20-25 years ago.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/499.html
The Dolphin Vortex was a 3-wheeler electric or gas, your choice, not the
same as the Vortex kit car now made in England. I think at one time there
was a kit, I'm not sure; currently it's only available as DIY plans.
http://www.3wheelers.com/dolphin.html
http://www.vortexplans.com/
Rick Doran designed another interesting 3-wheeler, also suited to either an
electric motor or a gasoline engine (Subaru, IIRC). Not sure this ever made it
to the kit car stage either, though I seem to recall Rick offering the molds
for
sale some years back.
http://www.3wheelers.com/doran.html
R Q Riley offer no kits, but rather plans for several DIY EVs including
Doran's. They also have plans for 70s-vintage Mechanix Illustrated projects
such as the Trimuter, Urba Electric, and Urba Trike; and a few E-bikes.
http://www.rqriley.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The alternator (self excited) I'm using is rated at
240 volts at 35 amps running at 3600 rpm. It's the
alterator head off of a 20 hp generator. I don't think
I'll be spinning it fast enough to produce 400 volts.
it should also stay below 360 volts at 100 hz. I was
planning on direct coupling it through my ADC drive
motor and having it activated by a brake pedal sensor.
and having a sliding pot conected to the pedal to vary
the pfc's current control to vary the regen. does that
make sense? I'm trying to put together something that
is fairly simple for now, with stuff that I have,
until I build the next car. I like the idea because
the PFC serves a dual purpose as charge and regen
controller, if it will work.
with this additional info, how feasible does it look?
Gadget
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am assuming that they are going to stuff DC into
> the charger.
> So.... that alternator and rectifier need to
> stay below 240 AC and 400
> DC... This makes for a much larger usefull window.
> But, having some voltage regulation to keep the
> output from jumping up at no
> load... is a wise idea.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:12 PM
> Subject: Re: regen...
>
>
> > What is the frequency of the alternator? How fast
> will you be spinning it?
> >
> > The doubt that the PFC works correctly at 400 Hz.
> It has never been tested
> > over 60 Hz.
> >
> > If the alternator is three phase, you can rectify
> all three phases and put
> > the DC rail into the charger.
> >
> > Make sure the DC rail never goes over 400 VDC or
> the logic power supply
> goes
> > bang.
> >
> > An aircraft generator might work better since they
> put out DC and work up
> to
> > 8000 RPM. By adjusting the field, you can get
> almost any output voltage
> you
> > want.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SO... they only made 800 of them. Thats not an excuse :-) Does anyone
else think that was as contrived as the lack of advertisement? But I do
think legislating them to make a product they don't want to may not be
the best way. Like asking them to compete with themselfs.
I would of rather seen incentives to the the starting and operation of
an electric vehicle company, When that took off, the regular market
forces would get them in the game.
I don't want to sound political with this next stement but I think the
free market system would work if extreem manipulation was eliminated.
(totally a systemic analysis, no administrations or name calling here)
1. We "seal the ballot" by preventing the news media from telling all
people who haven't voted yet that their votes didn't count before they
are cast
2. We outlaw the lobbiest so congressman would actually have to find out
what the people that elected them and they are representing really want.
3. We taper off of the subsides that regulate, and obscure, the cost of
gasoline.
4. We improve the representative quality of or government system by
eliminating the electoral college, It was created to compensate for
communication by horse rider, we can do better now.
5. We outlaw bill riders. (does anyone remember voting to allow
telemarketing cell phones?)
I am starting to think that "The EV problem" is actually one of a long
list of problems that exist because we have let the gready few take
advantage of the sytem and bastardized it to suit their personal needs
at the expense of the general well being. Some might argue that is
capitolism, but it really is breaking the ethics rules.
We need 1 and 2 so that we can start referendums and get 3-5, then once
"we, the people " have taken back control of our government we can make
EV or Solar, or humanitarian, headway.
kinda an information age coup.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland and everyone,
(I sent this e-mail once, but it looks like for some reason it didn't go).
Thanks for letting us know how things went at -35. What did the truck
drivers say about it?
The motor and motor controller cooling fans
stay off. The Zilla water coolant pumps stay off. The whole car is frost
free and do not need any defrosting.
What sort of circuit did you use to accomplish this? I would like to do
the same thing in the 200sx. Currently, the blower and zilla pump stay
on whenever the vehicle is on. I could put together a simple little
transistor/thermistor circuit to turn them on/off according to the
temperature, but would be very interested to know how you do it. You
are using the same Dayton blower that I am - I followed your lead on
that one. By the way, how did you rig up the filter on the blower? For
anyone that hasn't seen pictures of Rolands 1977 El Camino -
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html
He's done a very nice job!
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>What has surprised me is that kit car companies (to my knowledge)
>don't sell electric versions of their cars. Imagine a Factory Five
>Cobra (~1300 lb glider) with 28 orbitals and a zilla controller.
It wouldn't be that hard to buy the kit and build it as an electric.
But a Cobra? Mehhhh. Lemme know when someone taps the hidden market for
Skyline kit cars.
David Thompson, that Factory Five GTM has potential, though...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
Something you might consider bringing up with your potential buyers: would
they be willing to pay a bit more for a new car converted to electric? A lot of
cars can be had for small money (a base Civic, Kia, Echo, Ranger, Saturn
or Hyundai can often be had for under $10k brand new, and some, like the Kia
Rio, are blown out for as little as $5,500 new. In the case of the Echo, Ranger
and Civic certainly, you could get decent money parting out a brand-new zero-
mile ICE, cooling system, computer, etc., and recoup some of the additional
costs, maybe even breaking even compared to an early to late 90's used car.
(Or use the ICE components to build and sell generator trailers or something.)
Ask the question. You may find someone who isn't so sure about $100 for
an older used car, but might jump at the chance to buy a brand new car
converted to electric for $200 a month.
Tim
--------
> From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
>
> >
> > I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to
> be
> > driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies
> just
> > won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
> > to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who had
> been
> > driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he had been
> > driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into EV's.
> The
> > truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post melted
> off
> > , and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that it was
> > giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for . It's
> > looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better " and
> > "well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am trying to
> work
> > with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
> > 100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
> > together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people that
> will
> > do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I don't
> > seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your EV's and
> get
> > all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them " would you
> > pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset , I know
> my
> > conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget , . I
> > would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the charger .
> But
> > I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst than
> for
> > an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to convert the
> > car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this , It
> makes
> > a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody pay it
> > back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about not
> > being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer , I have
> > the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda pu
> with
> > new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a Toyota
> Terrell
> > which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home town Fort
> > Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but I'll be
> up
> > for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see where
> people
> > really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell it for
> > $500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even consider
> > this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers dosen;t do it
> .
> > Getting one together and driving it dose.
> >
> >
> > oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and controller
> > in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k for my
> > work so far.
> >
> >
> > > The fact remains that if there IS a market for a production EV then
> > > someone will fill the need. Small car producers are around. Look at
> > > Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about 15 years now and make a
> > > fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course, Panoz's customers pay
> > > the full market value for the cars without any subsidies.
> > >
> > Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I think
> > somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out there who
> > are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having somebody
> > build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it happen
> ,
> > not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the car
> > makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep up
> with
> > the demamd,
> > now how can we make this happen?
> > steve clunn
> > some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My pack is 72v and when I get to work it's at 71.14 (or so)
> immediatly after stopping. Within 10 or 20 seconds it's back
> to 72.2 (or so)... am I dragging it down too low?
You can generally pull your pack down to about 1.75v/cell under load
(63v for a 72v pack) before you should start worrying about damaging a
cell. When warm, the pack will be at something like 10-20% SOC (nearly
dead) when this happens. When cold, the pack may still be at 20-40% SOC
at this point.
In any case, it takes only seconds to return back over 72v no-load if
there are no dead or reversed cells.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may best to used one of those rubber couplers that have 3 lugs that
interlock into each other. I direct coupler my with a solid coupler so I
can get a good alignment for mounting the drive unit, and than used this cog
type of coupler.
With the drive unit mounted on a rubber donut engine mount feet and the
motor mounted on standard engine mounts, the motor at times will try to
torque to one side like a engine does. This cause a misalignment to the
drive unit and set up a virabration at certain speeds.
My inverter alternator need at least 1000 rpm for self excitation. So I
used a 6 inch drive pulley on the motor drive shaft to the standard 3 inch
pulley on the alternator. Now at about 330 motor rpm, the alternator is up
to excitation speed.
The solid state control unit made by Dynamote Company which is base in
Seattle, provides a constant voltage any speed of 1000 rpm +. There is a
low voltage, loss of phase, and a minimum and maximum 60 htz indicators,
that shut down the unit when any of these modes of operation at not at
specifications.
I don't used this to REGEN through the NEW PFC-50B charger, so I don't worry
Rick about the charger.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: regen...
> The alternator (self excited) I'm using is rated at
> 240 volts at 35 amps running at 3600 rpm. It's the
> alterator head off of a 20 hp generator. I don't think
> I'll be spinning it fast enough to produce 400 volts.
> it should also stay below 360 volts at 100 hz. I was
> planning on direct coupling it through my ADC drive
> motor and having it activated by a brake pedal sensor.
> and having a sliding pot conected to the pedal to vary
> the pfc's current control to vary the regen. does that
> make sense? I'm trying to put together something that
> is fairly simple for now, with stuff that I have,
> until I build the next car. I like the idea because
> the PFC serves a dual purpose as charge and regen
> controller, if it will work.
> with this additional info, how feasible does it look?
>
> Gadget
>
>
>
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I am assuming that they are going to stuff DC into
> > the charger.
> > So.... that alternator and rectifier need to
> > stay below 240 AC and 400
> > DC... This makes for a much larger usefull window.
> > But, having some voltage regulation to keep the
> > output from jumping up at no
> > load... is a wise idea.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: regen...
> >
> >
> > > What is the frequency of the alternator? How fast
> > will you be spinning it?
> > >
> > > The doubt that the PFC works correctly at 400 Hz.
> > It has never been tested
> > > over 60 Hz.
> > >
> > > If the alternator is three phase, you can rectify
> > all three phases and put
> > > the DC rail into the charger.
> > >
> > > Make sure the DC rail never goes over 400 VDC or
> > the logic power supply
> > goes
> > > bang.
> > >
> > > An aircraft generator might work better since they
> > put out DC and work up
> > to
> > > 8000 RPM. By adjusting the field, you can get
> > almost any output voltage
> > you
> > > want.
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley
> > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The major problem with this scheme is the increasing total vehicle
integration of control electronics. When one or a few black boxes control
the whole vehicle or major subsets as is now the case with major brands,
hacking out the engine and perhaps drivetrain is going to be very
difficult to impossible without the ability to reprogram the control
modules.
This bodes bad for cottage converters. I really don't see any easy
solutions. A converter is going to have to specialize on one model, most
likely, and then figure out how to keep the instrument cluster, ABS, HVAC,
entertainment and increasingly, even lighting systems working after the
drive train is removed. Even with a single model, keeping up with OEM
changes will be a monumental task.
Probably the solution most likely to succeed is what AC propulsion did
with the Saturn - negotiate a contract with an OEM to buy "gliders", said
contract specifying access to all equipment, information and software
necessary to program the PCM(s) to work without the engine.
Given such a contract, I could even envision using the rather high powered
PCM hardware to control the EV electronics. There is a huge amount of
processing power, hardware PCM and many sensor inputs that would be
available with the engine gone. A motor controller might constitute
little more than the power devices attached to the existing, reprogrammed
PCM.
John
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:56:03 -0800 (PST), Tim Clevenger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>Something you might consider bringing up with your potential buyers: would
>they be willing to pay a bit more for a new car converted to electric? A lot
>of
>cars can be had for small money (a base Civic, Kia, Echo, Ranger, Saturn
>or Hyundai can often be had for under $10k brand new, and some, like the Kia
>Rio, are blown out for as little as $5,500 new. In the case of the Echo,
>Ranger
>and Civic certainly, you could get decent money parting out a brand-new zero-
>mile ICE, cooling system, computer, etc., and recoup some of the additional
>costs, maybe even breaking even compared to an early to late 90's used car.
>(Or use the ICE components to build and sell generator trailers or something.)
>
>Ask the question. You may find someone who isn't so sure about $100 for
>an older used car, but might jump at the chance to buy a brand new car
>converted to electric for $200 a month.
>
>Tim
>
>--------
>> From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
>>
>> >
>> > I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to
>> be
>> > driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies
>> just
>> > won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
>> > to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who had
>> been
>> > driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he had been
>> > driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into EV's.
>> The
>> > truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post melted
>> off
>> > , and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that it was
>> > giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for . It's
>> > looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better " and
>> > "well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am trying to
>> work
>> > with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
>> > 100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
>> > together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people that
>> will
>> > do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I don't
>> > seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your EV's and
>> get
>> > all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them " would you
>> > pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset , I know
>> my
>> > conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget , . I
>> > would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the charger .
>> But
>> > I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst than
>> for
>> > an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to convert the
>> > car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this , It
>> makes
>> > a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody pay it
>> > back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about not
>> > being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer , I have
>> > the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda pu
>> with
>> > new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a Toyota
>> Terrell
>> > which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home town Fort
>> > Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but I'll be
>> up
>> > for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see where
>> people
>> > really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell it for
>> > $500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even consider
>> > this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers dosen;t do it
>> .
>> > Getting one together and driving it dose.
>> >
>> >
>> > oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and controller
>> > in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k for my
>> > work so far.
>> >
>> >
>> > > The fact remains that if there IS a market for a production EV then
>> > > someone will fill the need. Small car producers are around. Look at
>> > > Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about 15 years now and make a
>> > > fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course, Panoz's customers pay
>> > > the full market value for the cars without any subsidies.
>> > >
>> > Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I think
>> > somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out there who
>> > are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having somebody
>> > build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it happen
>> ,
>> > not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the car
>> > makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep up
>> with
>> > the demamd,
>> > now how can we make this happen?
>> > steve clunn
>> > some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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>Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> i read about people in the states complaining about
> the lack of electric vehicles on the roads - you
> should all be grateful that there are any at all !
> if you lived in a country where components cost 2-3
> times their value
> how many evs do you think would get built?
So that's why a Lynch motor cost so much!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John
As a person in the grips of the 4th stage of ev madness , John's post are
often a wake up slap in the face ,
operation. No assembly line, just work clusters of technicians
hand-assembling the car. Ya, GM called it a production vehicle but that
was just marketing fluff.
I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to be
driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies just
won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one.
That's nuts. Out here in California, there are laws on the books that
say government and utility fleets must have fractions of their fleets
use alternative fuels. It's spawned all sorts of grassroots industry
out here, like the biodiesel folks - mix biodiesel 50/50 with regular
diesel, and drive half your trucks with it, you get 25% right there.
Trouble is they're paying $3.00++ a gallon for that, which is no fun!
I think lots of fleet managers would *kill* to get ZERO emission EVs.
Essentially zero maintenance cost and they get to pass the fuel cost
onto whoever pays the power bill :) If they could get $100/month leases
on EVs they'd think they died and went to heaven. Heck, $200, even
$300 a month might be very commercially viable. $300/mo = $3600/yr.
One candidate fleet might be Lawrence Berkeley Lab (LBL), where most
employees don't drive in, so there are a lot of staff cars that get
driven around the Lab and down to Berkeley proper, only 10-20 miles
a day. Although they're on one heck of a hill.
Neighborhood electric vehicles set the bar, because for $12000 you
get a machine with safety and perception issues that's intimidating
to drive on primary roads and illegal on roads with speed limits > 35.
So... pick a standard, convert-able, common-as-dirt fleet vehicle
and design a *standardized*, inexpensive conversion kit for it.
Make deals with them to convert their end-of-life fleet cars,
either as a flat cash deal, or as a leaseback.
Could it be done?
> I am trying to work
with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
together working cars/trucks and made them useable.
I'd like to know how you can build an EV so inexpensively.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
On the Dayton Blower, just used a 6 inch diameter chrome air cleaner that is
normally used for a carburater. Install a steel bar across the intake and
taped it for the air cleaner threaded stud.
As for the heating system. I am using two 120 Vac cab heaters that is
mounted under dash and back against the firewall. The defrosted heater used
the existing hot water hear core, that is pipe to a large 120 vac 2000 watt
industrial engine heater. It looks like a long stainless steel 2 inch pipe.
About 30 minutes before I leave, the water heater comes up to temperature
and one cab heater comes on 10 minutes before I go. I found that the water
temperature only has to be at 35 to 50 degrees to do any defrosting.
At -35 below, while I was park outside for about a hour. I would turn the
defroster system on, which just turns on a pump, not add any more heat to
the water, which is in a super insulated tank and feed lines, would
defrosted the windshield in with 15 seconds!
It is best to starting running cooler air just over the outside ambient
temperature, then hitting it with hot air which causes the outside of the
windshield to frost up.
Also at any temperature above 0 degrees, I do not have to run the defroster
heats, just the fan. What happens, is when the cab heaters are on, it blows
hot air onto the seats or a person and convents to the back and up and then
down on the windshield.
Ohh, this heating system works so much better than in my ICE which I only
put in 10 gallons of gas last year.
As for the power circuits for these heaters, I am using a 5kw 120VAC
inverter that uses 12 volt power from my 12 VDC 145 Amp Alternator that is
driven by the main motor.
The cab heater uses 640 watts at 120 volts which is about 6 amps at 120
volts and 60 amps at 12 volts. I have the alternator at 15 volts so the
amperes is little less than 50 amps.
The motor amps to drive the alternator, plus the power steering, vacuum pump
and A/C only reads about 4 amps motor amps while under power and 0 amps when
coasting.
I have a heating control panel on dash, that turns on the Inverter, Turns on
DC power to it, Turns on any of the heater units in either auto mode thru a
thermostat non-thermostat, and a transfer switch that can select the on
board inverter power or commercial power while the car is plug in for a
preheat cycle.
When its above 0 degrees, I can just preheat the car with commercial power
and than can drive to my destination without using any onboard heating
systems.
The cooling pump for the Zilla is a Maxi-Jet 1200 which has a 3/4 pipe
outlet under the screened intake tube adapter which you would not used. I
connected this directly with a small piece of 3/4 hose to a combination fill
and expansion tank that is used for any of the 1980-1990 cars.
Coming off the pump with a 3/8 hose, I went down to a small oil coolent
radiator that is strap to the A/C radiator. Out of this radiator, I install
a drain plug and than ran a 3/8 line up to the Zilla.
The pump is plug straight into one of the 120 VAC outlets on the 5kw
Inverter. I do have any thermostat control for this pump.
I do have a heat sink temperature senser on the Zilla base plate. It never
went above 98 degrees all summer long. The senser I used is a piro micro
generator type, which is the same type that is used for sensing gas flame in
a heating system.
I ran this to a Stewart temperature gage that goes to 600 degrees. I
install a resistor in the sense line so the temperature gage would read the
same as the temperature on my multimeter that has a temperature sender
attach to the senser point on the Zilla base plate.
Everytime I go into the Café, when its that cold and everybody is leaving
there vehicles run, they ask me, was you able to get it to start. I said, I
don't have that problem, I remove the starter, and the fuel pump, the
exhaust system, and etc. That's why you have trouble starting your vehicle,
you have all that stuff that is not required.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: test run at -35
> Hi Roland and everyone,
>
> (I sent this e-mail once, but it looks like for some reason it didn't go).
>
> Thanks for letting us know how things went at -35. What did the truck
> drivers say about it?
>
> >The motor and motor controller cooling fans
> >stay off. The Zilla water coolant pumps stay off. The whole car is
> >frost
> >free and do not need any defrosting.
> >
>
> What sort of circuit did you use to accomplish this? I would like to do
> the same thing in the 200sx. Currently, the blower and zilla pump stay
> on whenever the vehicle is on. I could put together a simple little
> transistor/thermistor circuit to turn them on/off according to the
> temperature, but would be very interested to know how you do it. You
> are using the same Dayton blower that I am - I followed your lead on
> that one. By the way, how did you rig up the filter on the blower? For
> anyone that hasn't seen pictures of Rolands 1977 El Camino -
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html
> He's done a very nice job!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is how much money went for development of it, which
has to be spread over many motors. So the more are made,
the less expensive each gets, but (besides production volume)
degree of this phenomenon depends on the proportion of RND
money compare to production material/labor cost.
How much does Lynch motor cost and
what exactly makes it special?
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
i read about people in the states complaining about
the lack of electric vehicles on the roads - you
should all be grateful that there are any at all !
if you lived in a country where components cost 2-3
times their value
how many evs do you think would get built?
So that's why a Lynch motor cost so much!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thing about the FFVs is that they run just fine on ordinary gasoline,
which is what they're run on 99% of the time. Chrysler produced a number of
FFV vans that could run on E85 as well as gasoline. Many of these went to
Budget Car Rental. I'm sure Budget got a big tax credit for buying these,
and Chrysler gets a big benefit on the CAFE requirements, yet they were run
solely on gasoline. When I rented one of these, the Budget representative
never mentioned the E85 capability. I only discovered it when I filled it up
with gas - saw the sticker on the inside of the fuel filler door. Most
renters likely never realized it was anything other than a standard gasoline
van. I drove it from Maryland to Kansas to Texas and back to Maryland. I
started looking for E85 stations and never found one. (I have since seen one
Chevron station in Maryland that sells E85, and at a quite high price.) I'd
be surprized if any of the Budget FFVs had even one tank of E85 run through
them.
For a fair comparison, you need to look at vehicles that can't use gasoline,
such as the CNG vehicles Ford and Toyota produced. I'm willing to bet
production of these was a lot less.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, MD
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:52:48 -0500
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:29:43 -0600, Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>
>>To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
>>alternative fuel vehicle production
>>
>>http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/availability1.htm
>>
>>Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
>>
>>Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
>>Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
>>Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
>>Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
>>
>>
>Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
>enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
>CAFE standards allows dual fuel vehicles to qualify as getting 2x their
>fuel mileage in CAFE calculations. Thus a 22mpg Ranger that _can_ run
>on ethanol counts as getting 44mpg, even if it never is actually run on
>ethanol. Several manufacturers have been selling so many SUV's with mid
>teens mpg that they are in danger of not meeting the 21mpg fleet fuel
>economy standard for light trucks.
*sigh* This is like trying to discuss physics with kindergartners.
<capt'n obvious mode>
I cited those numbers to contrast the production numbers of that kind of
niche vehicle with the infinitesimal hand-assembly volume of EV production
and not to go off on Yet Another Ill-informed Tangent. Presumably Ford or
GM makes that many flexi-fuel vehicles because there is a market for them.
Presumably they're not just stacking 'em up in big piles somewhere out
near Area 51.
</capt'n obvious mode>
Now arises a different musing. Assuming for the moment your claim about
the motivation of the evil auto industry for making flexi-fuel vehicles is
correct, it is interesting that you'd call that a "loophole". Should not
an outside observer conclude that these are no different in concept or
effect than the various exceptions, subsides, tax credits, special
privileges and promotions that much of the EV world eagerly laps up?
Perhaps one should conclude that the difference between a "loophole" and a
"noble action for the good of mankind" lies only in whether it benefits
ones' friends or enemies.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:42:16 -0000
From: "anbausa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New Bev for Sale to Beta Customer
Phoenix Motorcars is offering for sale to a California buyer our
recently tested 1937 replica 4-door Phaeton with Valence Technology's
Lithium Ion battery pack.
Specs:
Urban range: 120+ miles per charge
Freeway range: 115+ miles per charge
Top Speed: 95 mph
0 - 60 mph time: 9.43 seconds
Vehicle warranty: 3 year bumper to bumper Battery warranty: 2 years
replacement, three additional years prorated
Projected battery life: 250,000 miles
Price: $100,000 Terms: 50% down, 50% on delivery
As this car is a production prototype, Phoenix Motorcars will
establish a beta site agreement with the buyer.
If interested, please contact Daniel Riegert 805-646-7073
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Dave Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The thing about the FFVs is that they run just fine
> on ordinary gasoline,
> which is what they're run on 99% of the time.
> Chrysler produced a number of
> FFV vans that could run on E85 as well as gasoline.
> Many of these went to
> Budget Car Rental.
In fact, i just read last night that every Chrysler
minivan with a 3.3 L V6 made between 1998 and 2002 is
a FFV. Like Dave and Mark said, they were sold that
way because of the CAFE credit, not because of
consumer demand.
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
I got my new pack of twenty-two US125's from Jim Ramos on
Monday. Though not where I asked them to be placed. He
dropped them in the middle of my drive way. So the butt
of my Blazer is sticking out of my space.
Which would not be a big deal, but I had forgotten to ask
him to leave a battery strap to let me move them around.
I called them the next day, and got a frazzled Mrs. who
handles the many calls during the day. I think I am going
to have to do many follow ups to get that strap.
Mean while, my EV butt is sticking out each night until
I move these around. I went over to a SFPEAA member to
borrow a strap. He didn't have what I needed, but let me
use his method. He has a couple of automotive post clamps
connected to rings that allow one to lift using straps
via the posts.
Lifting by the posts is not my idea of the right way to
treat new batteries. I would not want to have a premature
battery failure from stressing / cracking a post.
But one does not look a gift offer in the mouth when your
EV butt is sticking out.
Needless to say (butt I will), this weekend is battery
swapping time. I have to had to tell the many people that
want me to do PC work ($ goes to EV charging infrastructure)
to wait until next week when I have my new pack in.
I have changed plenty of packs in this Blazer EV. I usually
do it myself, and have lifted about 1.5 tons of batteries
when I done (can you say long-long hot shower).
I have been driving it since 1992 and it is still going
strong (knock on dashboard) and still gives plenty of
"miles of smiles" past each and every gas station price sign.
Plan of attack:
Friday night. I will remove the braces for the rear battery
box, and start disconnecting the battery cables between
each battery.
Saturday, an EAA member is going to borrow a home made battery
hoist (made from a hospital hoist) from another member, and
give it a try on my pack. So this will be the first time he
has changed out a pack, and the first time I have changed out
a pack with help.
I am hopping we get the old pack if 22 US145's out on Saturday
so I can clean the battery racks and boxes before the end of
the day.
Sunday, I will clean up all the cables, and start the process
of putting all the batteries back in. After cabling them all
back up, I will put the pack on a charge.
If I run into snag (heaven forbid) and don't get my EV back up
for next week, I always have my little rascal scooter. It will
only take me an hour to drive the 2.5 miles to work.
...
I have good news. UPS paid off, and my PFC-30 is on its way to
me. Yay!
So soon I should have a new pack of US125's and a new PFC-30
charger.
:-zzz
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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