EV Digest 4041
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fw:A world without Crud-oil, all electric autos 1900
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: regen...
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: regen...
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Steve's business
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Old Beetle EV Conversion Update
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The point of diminishing returns?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers/ EV biz
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Packs
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New recumbent motorcycle
by "paul compton \(RRes-Roth\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Packs
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: New recumbent motorcycle
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) ETS AND NESEA TEAM UP FOR EMISSION FREE VEHICLES
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New BEV for Sale to Beta Customer
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) zero emissions ?
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: UK EV construction
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: zero emissions ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: zero emissions ?
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:16:29 -0800 (PST)
From: James Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A world without Crud-oil, all electric autos 1900
Think for 2 minutes, about what kind of motors would
be powering our autos, if, there had never been any
Crud oil discovered. I'll tell you real quick, & I
have the books with the imformation to prove it.
In the late 1800's thru 1920, Electric auto's out sold
every type of Automobile on the road. They would go
100miles on a charge. Ferdinand Porsche's first auto
design, was in Austria, in 1900,it was front wheel
drive, with an electric motor in each wheel. In the
early to late teens, one auto company gauranteed
100miles per charge. They had Iron Oxide Batterys. Can
you just emagine, what mode of transportation we would
have today. In my opinion we would have parabolic
dishes by the multimillions. On house tops, unfertile
land, solar arrays, wind turbines by the millions.
Electric rail service coast to coast in every
direction. Our citys would have trolley cars, NO SMOG,
and a big chance,that we would all be a lot healthier.
For a lot more reading on where the states are,that
are fighting to clean up the air, from Smog,so they
can go outside everyday, without poluted air warnings,
check out this link. JW
http://www.emagazine.com/view/?411
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--- Begin Message ---
Regen has been used on forklifts for year. I dont believe it is that
complicated but we engage reverse to use it. Reverse is accomplished by
switching the polarity on the fields. There is another contactor and a
diode that comes into play also. I can provide a circuit diagram of the
ev-100 panel if anyone wants it.
Mike G.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
road, down through a valley then up the other side.
with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
output of the alternator? would it control the output
well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
coming out of the alternator?
Gadget
Sounds like something Roland has the most experience with.
Speaking of regen, has anyone on the list every implimented the scheme from the
pamphlet "Regenerative Braking with DC Series Motors" by G.L.Jackson? I've had
a copy for 7 years and just don't have the skills to impliment it. It was
intended for use with AdvDC motors, Curtis controllers, and a flooded pack, but
would even better suit SLA packs.
A contactor separates the field out between S2 and A2 and diodes with snubber
circuits are fed by a separate battery. His design used a 6V with its own
charger, but I wanted to use 2V or 4V Hawker(s) (since, even with this low of
voltage, they can supply high current) and use dc-dc to recharge them
constantly. When the button is pushed, he controlled regen via the accelerator
pedal, which means it became a *decellerator pedal*.
I can't guess at the efficiency compared to your
alternator-feeding-a-PFC-charger idea, and don't know if the equipment can
stand it. One drawback is the regen needs high enough rpms to charge, so you
either have to do a lot of shifting, or engage additional contactors to cut the
pack voltage in half.
Is this idea out-of-date, dangerous, or damaging (brushes, comm, or controller)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, are you sure this is regen or is it plug braking? Plug braking has
been utilized in forklifts for years to slow them down but the energy
doesn't go back in to the batteries. The newer AC drive forklifts have real
regen though.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-358-7082
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: regen...
Regen has been used on forklifts for year. I dont believe it is that
complicated but we engage reverse to use it. Reverse is accomplished by
switching the polarity on the fields. There is another contactor and a
diode that comes into play also. I can provide a circuit diagram of the
ev-100 panel if anyone wants it.
Mike G.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
road, down through a valley then up the other side.
with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
output of the alternator? would it control the output
well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
coming out of the alternator?
Gadget
Sounds like something Roland has the most experience with.
Speaking of regen, has anyone on the list every implimented the scheme
from the
pamphlet "Regenerative Braking with DC Series Motors" by G.L.Jackson? I've
had
a copy for 7 years and just don't have the skills to impliment it. It was
intended for use with AdvDC motors, Curtis controllers, and a flooded
pack, but
would even better suit SLA packs.
A contactor separates the field out between S2 and A2 and diodes with
snubber
circuits are fed by a separate battery. His design used a 6V with its own
charger, but I wanted to use 2V or 4V Hawker(s) (since, even with this low
of
voltage, they can supply high current) and use dc-dc to recharge them
constantly. When the button is pushed, he controlled regen via the
accelerator
pedal, which means it became a *decellerator pedal*.
I can't guess at the efficiency compared to your
alternator-feeding-a-PFC-charger idea, and don't know if the equipment can
stand it. One drawback is the regen needs high enough rpms to charge, so
you
either have to do a lot of shifting, or engage additional contactors to
cut the
pack voltage in half.
Is this idea out-of-date, dangerous, or damaging (brushes, comm, or
controller)?
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Oh, I agree. However, the base vehicles I'm referring to, and the prices they
run,
probably preclude them from having any of the options that would need to be
hacked. (Indeed, the $4,999 Kia Rios I saw advertised don't even have air
conditioning, though $800 and a trip to Vintage Air would fix that.) And unless
the Ranger changed drastically from 1996 to 2004, the worst you're likely to
have
to deal with is driving the speedometer.
I certainly agree with you on picking a single model for a business, but since
Steve
is a one-man business, I was just suggesting offering customers the option of a
cheap brand-new vehicle instead of a cheap used vehicle, to test the waters.
If one were going to do a large number of identical conversions, I would
recommend
a Saturn Ion. Decent back seat, huge areas perfect for batteries under the
hood and
trunk, and only 200 pounds more than the 4-door Metro, despite the much roomier
passenger compartment and trunk. Also, it already has electric power steering.
Tim
----------
> From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Steve's business (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist
> Repossession)
> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:28:50 -0500
>
> The major problem with this scheme is the increasing total vehicle
> integration of control electronics. When one or a few black boxes control
> the whole vehicle or major subsets as is now the case with major brands,
> hacking out the engine and perhaps drivetrain is going to be very
> difficult to impossible without the ability to reprogram the control
> modules.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(I sent this yesterday and it hasn't shown up on the list yet, so I'm
resending it. This seems a common complaint right now - is there a
problem with the listserv?)
On Monday, January 17, 2005, at 01:31 PM, Brian Staffanson wrote:
For all you classic beetle lovers, I am having a problem. I noticed
that I might earlier, and now I know. I tried to put my prestolite
MTC 4001 in my 1974 VW. I had to take out the transmission. Because
of the length of the motor, I wasn't able to put in the motor under
because of the transmission mounts. I wasn't able to put it in from
the top, as again the transmission mounts, and the combination of the
motor and transmission are too long. I am thinking that I might need
to cut the back part of the body, to put it in. I am hoping not. I
need a suggestion on how I might be able to work this out. I hope
someone has experience.
I had the same problem installing my 8inch ADC motor (the Sparrow
version with the long output shaft) in my Ghia. Measurements showed
that it would fit, but I couldn't come up with a way to install it
since I needed enough room to slide the clutch over the transmission
pilot shaft. I could angle it in from the bottom or the top, but it
has to go on straight and the engine deck is right in the way
I saw two choices: take off the body/install motor/replace body, or cut
up the rear engine deck. Since my engine deck was rusty anyway, I got
out the Sawzall and cut the rearmost portion completely away. The
apron (the part just above the tailpipe and behind the rear bumper) was
just tack-welded on and I was able to pop it loose with a screwdriver.
With the rear of the car completely open, installing the motor was a
cinch. I was able to just walk right up to the transmission and bolt
it on. (Well, actually I built an engine hoist out of a winch and a
sawhorse kit.)
You might not have as much "luck" with your car. It may not have a
rusty engine deck, and the apron is probably welded on solidly
Fortunately my Ghia was falling apart in exactly the right place and
nowhere else! And, strictly speaking, I wouldn't have needed to remove
the apron. It just made everything so easy, so I did it.
One more thought: can you remove the motor from the tranny, install the
tranny, then install the motor again? I didn't need to remove my
tranny because I bought the motor adapter from Electro Auto and it just
bolts on.
Brian
Hope this helps,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> On page 190 in the book "The New Electric Vechicles" (1996),
> it says:
>
> "The physics of electricity say that, when the current
> (amps) doubles, the losses will be four times as great."
That's true -- but only if you don't change anything except the current.
Power = I^2 x R.
But as a practical matter, you *do* change lots of things when you
change the voltage. For example, suppose you have (say) 24 12v
batteries, and are considering whether to wire them all in series, or in
2, 3, or 4 parallel strings. Assuming we want 72kw of power, what will
the power losses be in each case?
Each battery has an internal resistance; let's say 0.004 ohms. The
interconnecting wiring and terminals also add some resistance; let's say
we will use the same terminals and wire no matter how we wire them, and
a typical battery-to-battery jumper adds 0.001 ohm. Thus, each battery
has in effect a 0.005 ohm resistor in series with it. The power burned
up in these resistors is your loss.
1. All batteries in series
24 x 12v = 288v
72kw / 288v = 250 amps per battery
Resistance = 24 x 0.005ohms = 0.12 ohms
Power = I^2 x R = 250a^2 x (0.12ohm) = 7.5kw loss
2. Two parallel strings of 12 batteries in series
12 x 12v = 144v
72kw / 144v = 500 amps total
= 250 amps per battery (2 parallel strings)
Resistance per string = 12 x 0.005ohms = 0.06 ohms
2 strings in parallel = 0.06 / 2 = 0.03 ohms
Power = I^2 x R = 500a^2 x 0.03ohms = 7.5kw
I'll be darned. The loss is the same! That's because we have cut the
resistance in half by having half as many batteries in series. And then
we halved the resistance again by having two parallelled strings.
Exactly the same power; exactly the same efficiency and losses.
3. Three parallel strings of 8 batteries in series
8 x 12v = 96v
72kw / 96v = 750 amps total
= 250 amps per battery (3 parallel strings)
Resistance per string = 8 x 0.005ohms = 0.04 ohms
3 strings in parallel = 0.04 / 3 = 0.013 ohms
Power = I^2 x R = 750a^2 x 0.013ohms = 7.5kw
See the pattern? It doesn't make any difference how you wire the
batteries. Series gives the most voltage but the least current. Parallel
reduces the voltage but increases the current.
So, you pick your number of batteries based on what type you want to
use, and what fits (space, weight). The "optimal" way to wire them then
depends on the motor and controller you pick.
> With that in mind, when converting a car using either an
> Advanced DC 8" or 9" motor, and whichever Zilla is needed,
> what would be the ideal or optimal pack voltage when using
> either Orbitals or Optimas? How to decide on 144, 192, or
> 216v or any other number when space permits? Is there at
> some pack voltage a point when adding more batteries to the
> system isn't the same as it was up to that point?
This is a complex question.
By saying "Advanced DC", you are generally restricting yourself to a
series motor. Moreover, their 8" and 9" motors only come wound one way
-- you don't have a selection of voltages. So, choosing your motor
"nails down" the current-torque and voltage-speed relationships.
Series motors don't have a fixed voltage or current rating. They
basically transform whatever amount of power you put in (watts) into
mechanical power out (horsepower). You can get (almost) any horsepower
at any voltage -- as long as you're willing to let the rpm and current
go where they need to be to get that power. And, there is a time factor;
the more power you want, the shorter the time you can get it before the
motor overheats.
The controller is a further complication. It steps the battery voltage
down, but the current up. So you can always wire the batteries for a
higher pack voltage, and then knock it down to what the motor needs with
the controller. But if you pick too low a pack voltage, the controller
can't boost it if needed (for example, to get high horsepower at high
rpm).
The end result is that there is no optimal pack voltage. Higher voltages
tend to require more expensive controllers and allow higher motor rpm.
Lower voltages allow cheaper controllers, and allow high torque at low
motor rpm.
But if you buy a *big* controller that can convert high voltage to high
current, and have a transmission so you can adjust motor speed, either
approach will produce about the same end results.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> > Hi Steve and All;
>
> What a stunning inditment of the EV Biz. Or will people put their
money
> where their mouth is? Like to think if I could make Steve's offer up here
in
> CT he would get takers/....Would he? Fuel for thought as I was thinking of
a
> Steve like thing up here.
I didn't mean to paint a negative picture of my EV biz , . It is really a
great feeling to make the whole EV thing happen for somebody else. There are
people out there that want to be free of the whole oil thing , they don't
like smelling up the air, or sending money to the oil man. You make it
happen , you give them the freedom they long for . Many times I've stood
back while somebody who is driving one of my conversions babbles on to the
people around them about electric cars , . Over the first few years I get
to see them go through those EV changes , The 1st stage where they just want
to run out and tell the world what a wonderful thing they have found. 2nd
stage where there upset and mad with the world for not caring , not doing
something ( I like to remind them that regular people can't just go out and
buy one cus they aren't being solid ) ,. Each car/truck I've done ends up
having a story , how it came to be , who drove it ect. I know somebody will
come along , and befriend one of my EV's that needs a home .
Snowbelt Auto's/ Make ya think. As the Mark
> Hastings/Seth Allan Rabbit moved fast, EVen though it needed allot or
> cosmetic work, but for 500-700 bux, how could ya go wrong?
Well to me it didn't seem to move fast , That should have been gone the same
day.
Yet Steve can't
> EVen get his investment back, will hafta trek up to NC to get his car
back.
I would rather get the 100 month then lose on the parts , If I sold one for
less that what it cost , I would in my mind be giving up ,
> Now if J Wayland put the Blue Meany on the block? Bettya he'd sell it damn
> Fast, If it were priced cheep?
The fact that people like John Wayland aren't being paid big money to
convert cars is a little disheartening. What do you think it would cost to
have one of the best mechanics in the US work on your car , I'm sure that
the top ten are getting good money , have plenty of work , and pretty much
name there price. I have often wondered what it would take to get John W to
convert a car for somebody.
But all the detailing HOURS he spent on that,
> Maybe One of the celebs might pay what it's worth, timewise?
They have no problem spending 100k on a boat ,
I think we'd all be happy to hear somebody on the list getting big money to
do some kind of EV thing . But when I start dreaming down that path , I
remind myself that its not the destination its the drive. Finding ways to
make EV's cheep enough of people , finding the people , all the little bumps
in the road , learning form the hard times. I am very happy with my Zilla
controller but would I be so happy if I didn't have a Curtis for so many
years. Would I be so happy with my PFC charger if I hadn't fooled for years
with home made chargers. When the new batteries come out , and there's lots
of new EV drivers all with there 700ah packs with computer BMS's that plug
into the internet , controllers and chargers from another world , These EV
driver won't know what we went through with the old lead batteries, ect, But
we'll know what they missed , the Fun we've had making it work . So even
though things seem to say starting a ev biz is a poor idea , would you now
looking back and say " I wish I waited a few years before doing my first EV"
I bet not. Now is the time to start. I know every time you see some small
datsun or Honda your thinking what a great EV that would make.
But to the
> average converter, an older car, people say" $$$ bux for an OLD
Whatever?"VW
> Datsun, Honda? Fill in the blanks.
>
> You hafta find the right person to sell a conversion to, somebody like
> most Listers.
Yes and I will confess I was fishing , looking for somebody , but I have a
lot going on right now , the nission 300zx , Paul's 2 motor Porsche, and It
looks like a kit car project for somebody in my own town , a 1929 Mercedes
gazelle , . My days of converting cars and then trying to sell them may be
over ;-(
> I like to think that a bare bones clean conversion would sell. Time
will
> tell, hell, haven't even started. I would hunt down clean small cars for
> doners, VW's ,Hondas, that sort of thing.But you hafta think of it as a
> sorta doo gooder hobby, NOT a living thing.
>
And it has been one heck of a hobby , When you help put that ev grin on
sombody else's face , man what a feeling, Don't let the money thing get in
your way of starting you EV conversion shop,
> Just a few thoughts on a snowy afternoon.
>
Make that a heated shop .
Steve Clunn
got a call tonight form somebody who's been talking to me about the ranger
before Xmass , There excited about the ranger and things are looking like
they might be able to do it .
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Below is a post from October regarding 8V floodies. If you REALLY want to
use 8's, I think a series pack of 24 for 192V might be better than a
parallel pack of 96V.
Hope this helps,
BB
>Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:14:22 -0800
>From: Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Hi
>
>I'm sure this has been beat to death here but I wanted to make sure
>I'm going down the right road on battery packs.
>
>I'm looking at using 2 paralleled 96V battery packs. 24x 8volts
>The car/truck is going to be built around the battery packs and really
<snipage>
>Any suggestions on a better battery pack setup for better range verse speed or
>acceleration? I can't see there being a do all setup but what is the best
>compromise.
>
>Thanks
>
>Dave
>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:35:42 -0700
>To: EVDL
>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: 6-Volt vs. 8-volt Batteries
>
>Patrick and All,
>As Lynn Adams mentioned, the 8's don't last as long as the 6's, but
>another problem is voltage sag. Because they sag more than 6's, you don't
>get as much power out of them and less range pound for pound. I ran a 144V
>pack of 8's in the car originally, swore I'd never use them again, and
>then stupidly ran a pack in the truck. I remember reading a Trojan
>comparison that mentioned a 192V pack of 8's, which I should have given
>more thought to. With the higher voltage, it takes less current and thus,
>you get less sag, but who would want 24 floodies in a car? Now that I've
>switched to 24 6's in the truck and AGM's in the car, as they say, "I'm
>never going back"!
>
>Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
>Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
>http://www.devc.org/
>Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
>Racing Association:
>http://www.nedra.com/
>Lyons, CO
>1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
>1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:59:08 -0700
>>From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>Subject: 6-Volt vs. 8-volt Batteries
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I'm finally going to get my Jet Electrica running this winter. I need
>>new batteries and was wondering what are the pros and cons of using
>>6-volt vs. 8-volt batteries? My car will hold 20 T-105 batteries. So
>>am I better off using 20 6-volt batteries for a total pack voltage of
>>120, or 18 8-volt batteries for a total pack voltage of 144? Will both
>>battery packs last the same number of cycles?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Patrick
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I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340 lb. of NI CAD
at 120v. Curtis 1221 controller. A89. Lectra Stock wheels and tires. My
only concern is over revving the A89. I'd like to have a 65 to 70 mph top
speed. Seeing what the Sparrow did with an 8 inch and single gear I think I
can accomplish the same at 750 pounds including the rider with half of
everything the Sparrow has. Being low to the ground and steering by
handlebar with extensions it should be very comfortable. I plan to
eventully enclose the frame for better CD. I have most of the parts. If I
can canibalize the Aspire maybe I can reduce the price I'm selling the
Aspire for a bit.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This is the basic
design. Any suggestions?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
> You also could be seeing what all salespeople see. Most of the time
> people will say "no" when you offer to sell them something, no matter
> how good the deal might be, even if they are excited about the
> product's technology.
>
True and a car is somthing people depend on ,
> EV car companies that are still alive (to my knowledge), that offer
> freeway-capable vehicles you can drive away: Solectria, AC
> Propulsion, and Tango (well, hopefully soon). None of these are
> particularly cheap as cars go. Just pure unscientific speculation
> here: Maybe it works better, business wise, to go for the high end
> for drive-away cars, and sell parts and kits to the low end.
>
I'd be gambling more money this way , The 959 Porsche I did with Paul is
still up for sale for 30k , Paul likes it and says he doesn't care if it
sells or not . I'm sure I could get $100 a month for a car like that , but
we know that's not going to happen. When it sells I'll get my money for some
of the parts and my work in the mean time he's showing it off , to me this
is a susses. .
> What has surprised me is that kit car companies (to my knowledge)
> don't sell electric versions of their cars. Imagine a Factory Five
> Cobra (~1300 lb glider) with 28 orbitals and a zilla controller.
>
I know Paul would be happy to sell any of his kit cars with that set up ,
electric motors, zilla's ( and I'd get to do the work)
www.paulsexotics.com
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi lawrence
i hope where you live there are not too many corners
with a wheel base that long the handling will be interesting at low speed on
sharp turns
should be comfortable on long straight roads though
you will need to pay careful attention to rake trail and castor on the front
end or this thing will ride like a shopping cart
get a copy of "motorcycle chasis design" by tony foale who did a lot of design
work on recumbent designs and is something of a genius
you will probably need either leading or trailing link front suspension unless
you can budget for hub centre kit.
swing arm will bi fine for the rear
make sure you build a proper jig for the frame - if the geometry isn't spot on
the ride will be awful
build the frame in steel not ali as you will doubtless need to have it bent
straight and true once you've finished welding up
good luck
p.s. i have built umpteen motorcycles from racers to choppers - take note of
the bit about trail and castor !!
good luck
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340 lb. of NI CAD
at 120v. Curtis 1221 controller. A89. Lectra Stock wheels and tires. My
only concern is over revving the A89. I'd like to have a 65 to 70 mph top
speed. Seeing what the Sparrow did with an 8 inch and single gear I think I
can accomplish the same at 750 pounds including the rider with half of
everything the Sparrow has. Being low to the ground and steering by
handlebar with extensions it should be very comfortable. I plan to
eventully enclose the frame for better CD. I have most of the parts. If I
can canibalize the Aspire maybe I can reduce the price I'm selling the
Aspire for a bit.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This is the basic
design. Any suggestions?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340 lb. of NI
CAD
> at 120v.
> http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This is the
basic
> design. Any suggestions?
I endorse Richard's suggestion to get a copy of Tony Foale's book
(www.tonyfoale.com)
Tony is on the fence about the advantage of FFs, at least with ICE
engines. The aerodynamic and layout advantages for an electric version
are undeniable though.
Your wheelbase is too long. I suggest you take a look at the information
and machines at www.bikewebb.com
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave
> Below is a post from October regarding 8V floodies. If you REALLY want to
> use 8's, I think a series pack of 24 for 192V might be better than a
> parallel pack of 96V.
> Hope this helps,
> BB
I take it that the 6v's have a higher plate to weight ratio than the 8v's?
Or have better operating characteristics? ie sag etc.
I'm not stuck with any particular battery volt or configuration so I'm just
trying to find out what is the best compromise might be. A friend here (yet
another Dave) is a regional battery wholesaler so I can get what I need,
once
I have a clue what that is. He has a Commuticar, a etruck, and a Mazda
Ewagon
so he's been playing with evs for a bit.
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, I'm a newbie in this discussion list, but I think that even if it's
too long, depending on the use it might be driveable.
Cech this out (for geometry reference), you could move your front axle
backwards and separate the battery pack to accomodate it.
http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/trike3.htm
BTW I'm starting a project oriented towards that configuration, but so far I
have not decided if my steering will be on the front wheels or in the back
wheel, we'll see.
Regards
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de paul compton (RRes-Roth)
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 7:58
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: New recumbent motorcycle
> I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340 lb. of NI
CAD
> at 120v.
> http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This is the
basic
> design. Any suggestions?
I endorse Richard's suggestion to get a copy of Tony Foale's book
(www.tonyfoale.com)
Tony is on the fence about the advantage of FFs, at least with ICE
engines. The aerodynamic and layout advantages for an electric version
are undeniable though.
Your wheelbase is too long. I suggest you take a look at the information
and machines at www.bikewebb.com
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.earthtoys.com/news.php?section=view&id=589
MT. VERNON, New York, January 19, 2005– Electric Transportation Solutions, LLC
(ETS) and
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) announce today that they
have formed
a strategic alliance to promote the increased use of renewable energy for
transportation.
ETS announced on October 15, 2004, that their virtual department store of
electric
vehicles will market EVs and ultimately supply them with power from the wind
and sun.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phoenix Motorcars is offering for sale to a California buyer our recently
tested 1937 replica 4-door Phaeton with Valence Technology's Lithium Ion
battery pack.
Price: $100,000 Terms: 50% down, 50% on delivery
Hey, sounds great! I'll just roll all the coins on the dresser top and go
for it!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle ...
SNIP
This is the basic design. Any suggestions?
Yep. Hop on the Feet Forwards group and show it to the guys over
there who've been building such things for years. There are some
folks there who have made their life's work the design and
development of recumbent powered two-wheelers.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feet_forward/
Some notes. Wheel-base is WAAAAY to long. If you can, stack some of
the batteries on top of the first row, in between your legs. You
could probably chop at least a foot if not more off the wheel-base
without adversely affecting Cg. Also, your weight is a bit
incredible. 750 Lbs? I think you'll find that very hard to control.
Under 500 would be a much easier thing to control. Are you including
your own weight in this?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just as a doubt:
Zero emmissions is a very drastic statement, the batteries (specially when
hot) will emmit some gases, has anyone given it a second thought ?
What I'm thinking of is a way to collect those vapours and recycle them.
Maybe I shouldn´t even care about them, bu since I'll start my "grand
project" soon, i wanted to make provisions if necessary.
Keep up the good work.
Ivo jara G.
Santiago - Chile
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, how a bout the solution chrysler used on the tomahawk, it's really a
four wheel motorcycle: take a peek...
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Pictures/Tomahawk-V10.jpg
With this i don't mean to tell you to make your bike higher, but it could be
as low as you want it, and use four wheels instead of two.
just a thought.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Michael Hurley
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 13:18
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
>I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle ...
SNIP
>This is the basic design. Any suggestions?
Yep. Hop on the Feet Forwards group and show it to the guys over
there who've been building such things for years. There are some
folks there who have made their life's work the design and
development of recumbent powered two-wheelers.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feet_forward/
Some notes. Wheel-base is WAAAAY to long. If you can, stack some of
the batteries on top of the first row, in between your legs. You
could probably chop at least a foot if not more off the wheel-base
without adversely affecting Cg. Also, your weight is a bit
incredible. 750 Lbs? I think you'll find that very hard to control.
Under 500 would be a much easier thing to control. Are you including
your own weight in this?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, how a bout the solution chrysler used on the tomahawk, it's really a
four wheel motorcycle: take a peek...
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Pictures/Tomahawk-V10.jpg
With this i don't mean to tell you to make your bike higher, but it could be
as low as you want it, and use four wheels instead of two.
just a thought.
Not to be rude or anything, but the Tomahawk is a total waste of
space. It can barely lean and has a steering lock of about 10 degrees
because of the suspension design. The only reason it has four wheels
is because that was the only way to support the honking huge,
over-powered engine. According to the designer, they decided to use a
viper power-plant and then designed the rest around it. Basically,
it's a poor design wrapped around a bad initial decision.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:39:00 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is how much money went for development of it, which
> has to be spread over many motors. So the more are made,
> the less expensive each gets, but (besides production volume)
> degree of this phenomenon depends on the proportion of RND
> money compare to production material/labor cost.
>
> How much does Lynch motor cost and
I think last time I was quoted for a new model it was over 800UKP.
But bear in mind that an imported ADC (6.7") can cost upwards of
600UKP.
> what exactly makes it special?
1) High peak power to weight (and size) ratio.
2) Very high efficiency.
3) it is made in low volumes, in the UK. As opposed to the far east,
with cheap materials, labour and shipping. i.e, you stand a chance of
it living up to spec and being able to send it back if it doesn't :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could used Hydrocaps to prevent losses up to 90% by recombining the
released oxygen and hydrogen.
Or you can go to Water-Miser Vent Caps for a reduction of 30 to 75%, but
does not have to be replace every two years.
Also if you have a so call seal top batteries, but do vent, Hydrocap
Company in Florida, makes a absorbment pads that absorbs the gases. These
are normally used in a total enclose enclosers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: zero emissions ?
> Just as a doubt:
>
> Zero emmissions is a very drastic statement, the batteries (specially when
> hot) will emmit some gases, has anyone given it a second thought ?
>
> What I'm thinking of is a way to collect those vapours and recycle them.
>
> Maybe I shouldn´t even care about them, bu since I'll start my "grand
> project" soon, i wanted to make provisions if necessary.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> Ivo jara G.
> Santiago - Chile
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Roland Wiench
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 15:23
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: zero emissions ?
You could used Hydrocaps to prevent losses up to 90% by recombining the
released oxygen and hydrogen.
Or you can go to Water-Miser Vent Caps for a reduction of 30 to 75%, but
does not have to be replace every two years.
Also if you have a so call seal top batteries, but do vent, Hydrocap
Company in Florida, makes a absorbment pads that absorbs the gases. These
are normally used in a total enclose enclosers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: zero emissions ?
> Just as a doubt:
>
> Zero emmissions is a very drastic statement, the batteries (specially when
> hot) will emmit some gases, has anyone given it a second thought ?
>
> What I'm thinking of is a way to collect those vapours and recycle them.
>
> Maybe I shouldn´t even care about them, bu since I'll start my "grand
> project" soon, i wanted to make provisions if necessary.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> Ivo jara G.
> Santiago - Chile
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
>
>
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Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
--- End Message ---
