EV Digest 4042
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: zero emissions ?
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers/ EV biz
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: zero emissions ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Ford Ranger EV Drivers/ EV biz
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: zero emissions ?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: UK EV construction
by spidercats <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Home-made emergency disconnect
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: zero emissions ?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: UK EV construction
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Fwd: EV Parade & BarBQ - Sacramento - Saturday
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: UK EV construction ........Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) CNG as bridge from ICE to EV?
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EVLN(EVs are exempt from sales tax in Delhi)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVLN(Look before you scoot)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
thanks, good tip.
ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Roland Wiench
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 15:23
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: zero emissions ?
You could used Hydrocaps to prevent losses up to 90% by recombining the
released oxygen and hydrogen.
Or you can go to Water-Miser Vent Caps for a reduction of 30 to 75%, but
does not have to be replace every two years.
Also if you have a so call seal top batteries, but do vent, Hydrocap
Company in Florida, makes a absorbment pads that absorbs the gases. These
are normally used in a total enclose enclosers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: zero emissions ?
> Just as a doubt:
>
> Zero emmissions is a very drastic statement, the batteries (specially when
> hot) will emmit some gases, has anyone given it a second thought ?
>
> What I'm thinking of is a way to collect those vapours and recycle them.
>
> Maybe I shouldn´t even care about them, bu since I'll start my "grand
> project" soon, i wanted to make provisions if necessary.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> Ivo jara G.
> Santiago - Chile
> --
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> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
we all know what the tomahawk is, it's just an advertising stunt for
chrysler, and it performs adequately just in a straight line, i was just
thinking of a solution for a too long too low recumbent bike, well, just
don't disqualify everything in a vehicle just because it is not coherent,
some solutions are useful sometimes.
regars
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Michael Hurley
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 13:54
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
>Well, how a bout the solution chrysler used on the tomahawk, it's really a
>four wheel motorcycle: take a peek...
>
>http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Pictures/Tomahawk-V10.jpg
>
>With this i don't mean to tell you to make your bike higher, but it could
be
>as low as you want it, and use four wheels instead of two.
>
>just a thought.
Not to be rude or anything, but the Tomahawk is a total waste of
space. It can barely lean and has a steering lock of about 10 degrees
because of the suspension design. The only reason it has four wheels
is because that was the only way to support the honking huge,
over-powered engine. According to the designer, they decided to use a
viper power-plant and then designed the rest around it. Basically,
it's a poor design wrapped around a bad initial decision.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
>> What a stunning inditment of the EV Biz. Or will people put their
>> money where their mouth is? Like to think if I could make Steve's
>> offer up here in CT he would get takers... Would he?
I think the problem is that people have been conditioned to think a
certain way -- "inside the box". If they are forced to think "outside
the box", they get uncomfortable and fearful that something will go
wrong.
Put a bird in a cage, and he'll hate it. He knows about freedom, and
wants it back. He'll darn near kill himself trying to get "out of the
box". But, raise a bird from infantcy inside a cage, and he won't want
to leave it. He's afraid of "outside the box". There's food, it's safe
-- it's home.
People are much the same. They've been raised since birth to believe
cars must be built and work a certain way, and come from certain
companies. Cars are too important to their lives to take chances on
"outside the box" alternatives. People will only do it if they literally
have no choice.
Of course, once you get that bird out of the cage for a while, he'll
realize that there's still food, it's still safe, and he has a *lot*
more freedom. After a taste of freedom, he won't want to go back to the
cage!
So if you want to get ordinary people used to driving EVs, you have to
find a way to do it in a gradual non-threatening manner. Notice that all
the auto company EVs and hybrids are *exactly* like ordinary cars to the
greatest extent possible? They even "creep" like cars with automatic
transmissions. The Avcon/Magnecharger even looks like a gas pump.
Steve is trying to lure people "out of the box" with lower cost. I don't
think this will work. It might attract people who are desperate and can
barely afford; but if they save money on the EV they will go right back
"inside the box" and buy an ICE as soon as they get some money.
Not only that, there's no money in it for Steve. He can't work for free.
Doing it this way will drive *him* out of the business, too.
We need to find better ways to lure people into EVs. We need to find
people who are uncomfortable with ICEs, and *want* an "out of the box"
solution; who are already prepared to pay more and suffer some
inconvenience to get it. Freedom costs more, you know; but it has other
rewards!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ivo Jara G. wrote:
> Zero emissions is a very drastic statement. The batteries (especially
> when hot) will emit some gases, has anyone given it a second thought?
Temperature is not really a factor. Flooded batteries (mainly lead-acid
and nicad) have open vents. They typically vent water vapor, and (if
overcharged) some hydrogen and oxygen. If charged at high current when
they are already fully charged, they also emit small amounts of
electrolyte mist (sulfuric acid for lead-acid, potassium hydroxide for
nicad). But, these emissions are very low; new electrolyte usually does
not need to be added these trace emissions for many years.
Sealed batteries are sealed. They don't emit anything unless abused. All
types of batteries are available sealed -- lead acid, nicad, nimh, the
various lithium chemistries, etc.
> What I'm thinking of is a way to collect those vapours and recycle
> them.
This is a good idea for flooded batteries. Not to reduce pollution
(whiuch is negligible), but so you do not need to add water as often.
Also, it cuts down on the amount of corrosion of the terminals and
surrounding metals.
> Maybe I shouldn´t even care about them, bu since I'll start my "grand
> project" soon, i wanted to make provisions if necessary.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I totally agree, there's lots of people who would be willing to take the
time and go through the troubles of driving an EV, let's play a little mind
game:
1) Environmentally conscious people.
2) Intellignet people who you can explain things and will understand.
3) The average geek :)
4) People who are status oriented.
After those people fall in, the flock will follow, it will become chic to
have an ev, it will also be good to the planet.
Once the pack follows, there won't be any more problems to recharge in any
gas station, so it will be less trouble to drive an ev.
The thing is getting the population group wjho all look up to, to buy ev's.
Actors, sportsmen, famous writers, etc.
Then it's all downhill.
Regards
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Lee Hart
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de enero de 2005 17:02
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers/ EV biz
Steve Clunn wrote:
>> What a stunning inditment of the EV Biz. Or will people put their
>> money where their mouth is? Like to think if I could make Steve's
>> offer up here in CT he would get takers... Would he?
I think the problem is that people have been conditioned to think a
certain way -- "inside the box". If they are forced to think "outside
the box", they get uncomfortable and fearful that something will go
wrong.
Put a bird in a cage, and he'll hate it. He knows about freedom, and
wants it back. He'll darn near kill himself trying to get "out of the
box". But, raise a bird from infantcy inside a cage, and he won't want
to leave it. He's afraid of "outside the box". There's food, it's safe
-- it's home.
People are much the same. They've been raised since birth to believe
cars must be built and work a certain way, and come from certain
companies. Cars are too important to their lives to take chances on
"outside the box" alternatives. People will only do it if they literally
have no choice.
Of course, once you get that bird out of the cage for a while, he'll
realize that there's still food, it's still safe, and he has a *lot*
more freedom. After a taste of freedom, he won't want to go back to the
cage!
So if you want to get ordinary people used to driving EVs, you have to
find a way to do it in a gradual non-threatening manner. Notice that all
the auto company EVs and hybrids are *exactly* like ordinary cars to the
greatest extent possible? They even "creep" like cars with automatic
transmissions. The Avcon/Magnecharger even looks like a gas pump.
Steve is trying to lure people "out of the box" with lower cost. I don't
think this will work. It might attract people who are desperate and can
barely afford; but if they save money on the EV they will go right back
"inside the box" and buy an ICE as soon as they get some money.
Not only that, there's no money in it for Steve. He can't work for free.
Doing it this way will drive *him* out of the business, too.
We need to find better ways to lure people into EVs. We need to find
people who are uncomfortable with ICEs, and *want* an "out of the box"
solution; who are already prepared to pay more and suffer some
inconvenience to get it. Freedom costs more, you know; but it has other
rewards!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
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Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
This is a good idea for flooded batteries. Not to reduce pollution
(whiuch is negligible), but so you do not need to add water as often.
Also, it cuts down on the amount of corrosion of the terminals and
surrounding metals.
How about combining Lee's idea on making a water resistant electronics
enclosure with the water saving Hydrocaps.
Add balloons/rubber bladders to your battery caps. Gases and acid/water
vapor has a chance to expand and recombine/recondense. Less acid vapor
reduces corrosion, and you have a very good indicator of how much
overcharging is being done on a cell by cell basis.
Of course.. there are lot of a reasons this is a bad idea. The amount
of steam and hydrogen/oxygen produced in a typical charge would probably
require a fairly large balloon and enough space to contain it. The
water would condense and drain out of the balloon before the hydrogen
and oxygen recombined, making the balloon a nice explosion hazard.
Acid and perodic cycling would like weaken or destroy most common
flexible (rubber) materials. There are no provisions for slowly
releasing gas in an overpressure situation. Not to mention the sheer
oddity of having ballons sticking out of the tops of your batteries.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340
> lb. of NI CAD
> at 120v. Curtis 1221 controller. A89. Lectra Stock wheels
> and tires. My
> only concern is over revving the A89. I'd like to have a 65
> to 70 mph top
> speed. Seeing what the Sparrow did with an 8 inch and single
> gear I think I
> can accomplish the same at 750 pounds including the rider
> with half of
> everything the Sparrow has. Being low to the ground and steering by
> handlebar with extensions it should be very comfortable. I plan to
> eventully enclose the frame for better CD. I have most of the
> parts. If I
> can canibalize the Aspire maybe I can reduce the price I'm
> selling the
> Aspire for a bit.
> http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This
> is the basic
> design. Any suggestions?
Hi Lawrence,
As others have said, your wheelbase is too long. You also seem to be trying
to get your center of gravity as low as possible. This is a mistake.
Most people think a low cg is beneficial in all cases. It's not. It's true
in cars, which is the basis of most peoples' experience. A car tries to
lean in turns, but can't because of the lateral distance between the wheels.
This defines the dynamics of four-wheel two track vehicles. In this case
you need to spread the load on the tires as evenly as possible in a curve,
and you do that by lowering the cg. A low cg also has benefits in reducing
body lean (more important to occupant comfort than performance) and
tightening up right-left transitions.
A motorcycle must lean into turns. This gives you an entirely different set
of vehicle dynamics. As a practical matter, you have more tradeoffs to
consider. If you try to balance a garden rake vertically on your fingertip,
it's easier when the rake head is on top. That means a high center of
gravity is *more stable*. OTOH, you need to move the position of your
finger farther on each correction to maintain balance. Translated to a
motorcycle, this makes it feel kind of darty, and since you're leaned over
while this is going on, these motions tend to lift the wheel off the
pavement. Not a good solution in practice.
The other thing to consider is that leaning into a turn or making
corrections in a turn requires you to roll (as in pitch/roll/yaw). It's a
rotation that wants to be centered on the cg and is made much easier with a
low polar moment. Get your cg too low and the polar moment increases too
much because the rider didn't move. And the whole bike/rider combination
has to move in a big arc around the cg. It makes the bike feel ponderous
and sluggish, as if everything was pivoting around the contact patches.
There's a range of cg height in which it's high enough that you can flick
into turns easily. (For a left turn, your head swings left and your contact
patches swing right.) But still low enough that it doesn't feel fidgety.
On a standard motorcycle, your cg wants to be a little forward and below
your kneecaps when seated.
But then, you're not making a standard motorcycle. All the physics still
apply, but the rules of thumb are questionable. I hope you don't plan to
build this once and get it right. If you don't use an existing proven
design, I would strongly advise building it with provisions to alter your
rake and trail. Plan on experimenting a while before getting it right. How
easily it drops into a turn, how it responds to the brakes while turning and
other important behavior is dictated by rake and trail. With lots of
tradeoffs, of course. By all means get the book by Tony Foale to understand
the subtleties. Single track vehicle design is a whole different world.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
we all know what the tomahawk is, it's just an advertising stunt for
chrysler, and it performs adequately just in a straight line, i was just
thinking of a solution for a too long too low recumbent bike, well, just
don't disqualify everything in a vehicle just because it is not coherent,
some solutions are useful sometimes.
This is true. As a marketing ploy it worked a treat. "Dude! Look at
that thing! It's sweet!!" and all that. But it's totally impractical
as an actual vehicle. As I believe Lawrence was wanting a practical
vehicle for daily use, the Tomahawk is hardly a good role-model. The
problems with the four-wheel layout used in the Tomahawk are inherent
to the design and have nothing really to do with the engine choice.
The swing-arm position limits steering lock and the swing-arm range
of motion limits lean angle. The handling characteristics of long
wheel-base vehicles are similarly inherent. The longer the
wheel-base, the larger the turning radius and the slower the turn-in.
These are unavoidable. They aren't necessarily problems, either. Like
all engineering, it's a matter of compromise. Longer wheel-bases are
also more stable, precisely for the same reasons of slower turn-in
and larger turning radius.
If I read Lawrence's diagram correctly, he's looking at a wheel-base
of 110 inches minimum. That's over 9 feet! I'd get it under 70" at
most, and under 60" if at all possible.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:39:00 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It is how much money went for development of it, which
has to be spread over many motors. So the more are made,
the less expensive each gets, but (besides production volume)
degree of this phenomenon depends on the proportion of RND
money compare to production material/labor cost.
How much does Lynch motor cost and
I think last time I was quoted for a new model it was over 800UKP.
But bear in mind that an imported ADC (6.7") can cost upwards of
600UKP.
what exactly makes it special?
1) High peak power to weight (and size) ratio.
2) Very high efficiency.
3) it is made in low volumes, in the UK. As opposed to the far east,
with cheap materials, labour and shipping. i.e, you stand a chance of
it living up to spec and being able to send it back if it doesn't :)
Be nice if I could understand their diagrams and data. Figures in HP
and consumption rates that make some sense would be good as would some
basic prices.
I have more or less decided that a Lynch is going to be the way to go if
I decide to build and can persuade my other half that the risks are
worth the benefit. But which motor?
Present thought are 4 to 6 hp which would be 40 to 60 peak? Is that
enough for 60 odd mph? Then Lith poly batts to top out at
72Vx200amps...Lots of thoughts and one loan to go before I can think of
a bike swap though.
Like I said there are some way smarter people than I on this list.
Matt G
Matt G
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have started fitting up fuses and contactors etc., and have come back
around to the emergency disconnect decision. I like the idea of a cable- or
rod-operated remote disconnect, to keep as much of the HV wiring in the one
spot.
Looking at the 200A fuse holders that I have, and in particular a broken
one, the thoughts that I am having at present are along the lines of:
Since there will not be enough space in the enclosure as it is to pull a
200A fuse clip clear of a holder,
and
I have a broken holder with a clip
and
there would be enough space to pull a piece made from one end of the fuse
holder and clip
therefore
I can make up a piece that consists of a fixed part from a 200A fuse
holder, and a moving part from its' fuse clip, that can be pulled around
250mm (10") apart, with bakelite as the arc-flash faces.
My traction pack fuses are likely to be 250A (no drag racing!) so although
I have dual-paralell strings of Orbitals capable of delivering exceptional
amperages, if a high-level fault occurs I won't need to pull the disconnect
(pack fused both + and -) since the fuses would be quicker than my
reactions. So the only likely scenario is that the Zilla AND the 'ignition'
stays on (from wiring damage or whatever) and so needs to be pulled at 200A
to 300A.
What do people think?
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How about combining Lee's idea on making a water resistant
> electronics enclosure with the water saving Hydrocaps.
>
> Add balloons/rubber bladders to your battery caps. Gases and
> acid/water vapor has a chance to expand and
> recombine/recondense.
I think a fundamental problem here is that the gasses do *not*
recombine. In a VRLA battery, O2 is generated at the positive plate and
must travel to the negative plate, where it reacts with the plate
material (not H2). A subsequent reaction involving the oxidised
negative plate material and H- ions in the electrolyte results in the
H2O. H2 is not generated in a VRLA under normal conditions.
In a flooded battery, O2 will still be produced at the positive plate
but H2 may be produced at the negative plate. Some recombination of O2
may still occur at the negative plate, however, once these gasses leave
the cell they will not recombine unless they are in the presence of a
catalyst (such as inside a Hydrocap) or external energy is input (i.e.
the very dangerous spark).
So, the balloon would contain the acid and water vapour and allow it to
recondense/return to the cell, but the balloon would slowly fill up with
gasses. Of course, H2 will probably slowly leak right through the
balloon material (just as helium balloons deflate over a day or two),
leaving predominantly O2 (if anything).
> Less acid vapor reduces corrosion, and you have a very good
> indicator of how much overcharging is being done on a cell
> by cell basis.
This is probably the biggest justification for trying this: to get some
indication of the amount of overcharging/gassing that is actually
occuring (provided that the H2 and O2 can be kept from leaking out of
the balloon).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
when i was looking for a motor for my bike I rang lemco to buy one
the cost was £780+vat
i ended up buying an etek instead - but here's the interesting thing
it wasn't due to specification or cost it was because the guy at lemco said
they were moving factories and as such couldn't give me a delivery date then
added that they wouldn't take credit cards and i would have to send a cheque -
i just plain couldn't be bothered with the hassle and not having purchase
insurance when not using a card is just anoying
i now notice you can buy the motors on ebay brand new and pay through paypal
i guess the factory must have changed it's sales policy - funny that
Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:39:00 -0800, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> It is how much money went for development of it, which
> has to be spread over many motors. So the more are made,
> the less expensive each gets, but (besides production volume)
> degree of this phenomenon depends on the proportion of RND
> money compare to production material/labor cost.
>
> How much does Lynch motor cost and
I think last time I was quoted for a new model it was over 800UKP.
But bear in mind that an imported ADC (6.7") can cost upwards of
600UKP.
> what exactly makes it special?
1) High peak power to weight (and size) ratio.
2) Very high efficiency.
3) it is made in low volumes, in the UK. As opposed to the far east,
with cheap materials, labour and shipping. i.e, you stand a chance of
it living up to spec and being able to send it back if it doesn't :)
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle with 340
lb. of NI CAD
at 120v. Curtis 1221 controller. A89. Lectra Stock wheels
and tires. My
only concern is over revving the A89. I'd like to have a 65
to 70 mph top
speed. Seeing what the Sparrow did with an 8 inch and single
gear I think I
can accomplish the same at 750 pounds including the rider
with half of
everything the Sparrow has. Being low to the ground and steering by
handlebar with extensions it should be very comfortable. I plan to
eventully enclose the frame for better CD. I have most of the
parts. If I
can canibalize the Aspire maybe I can reduce the price I'm
selling the
Aspire for a bit.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Recumbent%20motorcycle.pdf This
is the basic
design. Any suggestions?
Hi Lawrence,
As others have said, your wheelbase is too long. You also seem to be trying
to get your center of gravity as low as possible. This is a mistake.
Chris
Hey, Chris (and Lawrence), see the below site for the physics of why
a low Cg is a very good thing for motorcycles, as written by someone
who's been building and riding low Cg recumbent machines for decades.
http://www.hightech.clara.net/feetfirs.htm
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your chapter is within range of Sacramento, please
join us there on Saturday (see below).
Sherry Boschert
SFEAA
--- Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:19:16 -0800
> Subject: EV Parade & BarBQ - Sacramento - Saturday
>
> The Sacramento RangerEV Vigil is gaining momentum.
> As reported today in
> the Los Angeles Times in its 2nd story on the vigil,
> "Ford Motor Co.
> officials said Tuesday that the automaker is
> reconsidering a decision
> to scrap its last few electric Ranger pickups..."
>
> In support of the vigil, Jumpstart Ford and electric
> car drivers are
> organizing an Electric Car parade from the vigil at
> Downtown Ford on
> 16th St. in Sacramento at noon Saturday. It will be
> followed by a
> bar-b-q and rally at a site to be determined.
>
> The press is growing more interested in our story.
> A strong showing of
> production and conversion plug in electric vehicles
> will help convey
> our message.
>
> Questions?
> Contact Marc Geller
> 415.861.7278
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Hi Richard an' All;
Had to chime in on this one. The UK, Home of a buncha Milk Floats and
other sundry EV's . Didn't one Lister Over There do a Morris Pickup with a
milk float motor? Must be somewhere these vehicles go to die? Parts? Maybe.
UK is home to the Cav motor. I have two examples, on the bench at home. Paid
18 bux for them in my local Junkque Yard. Of course they didn't have any
shafts. Hada shaft made, pressed in and welded in place. They look like
about 9" frame as robust and sturdy as an ADC or Warp. They look to be
series machines with a small light lead off the field.I think they were pump
motors on a forklift truck? Nezt question; Do they still make Cav motors?
Couldn't find anything online. MUST be other small makers of motors in the
United States of Europe? France, Switzerland and of course ,Germany?
Scandinavia? Lot's of cool places there. Sevcon, Gees! Their Home Turf, and
4 QD? Not to mention Siemans, and Alstom, I would think Europe would be a
parts bazaaar?The Swiss outfit that Solectria got alot of their hardware
from, Brussa(sp)? Batteries? AH! Right near the source, France, for the
Safts.
I make it sound too easy, AFFORDABLE stuff, as you say, is a challange,
but with petrel hovering at 5-7 bux a gallon, you'd think there would be
more EV activity on the continent. But I have heard that it is very
difficult to just haul off and convert a car there. Legal crap, can't just
"Tag" it and drive off in clouds of contentment. Saftty inspections, yada
yada yada, legal red tape because you arent paying the road tax, like Or, a
surcharge if yur elecytric or hybrid. Fellow in Portugal I used to write to
said that modyifying a car there was a no-no. It HAD to pass a annual safety
inspection, they, the inspection folks would definately pick up on it, first
look, if it was electric.Or not stock.
I can see the appeal of a Reva or other Out of the Box , EVen a GEM car
and drive cars.Europe isn't ALL Autobahns' Yet? Or is it? Narrow city
streets, in the old part of town, ideal EV country?Actually more so than
here. But there are few other products/concepts that the Whole World is
ready for and could use, right now!
End of sermon.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard ball" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: UK EV construction
> when i was looking for a motor for my bike I rang lemco to buy one
> the cost was £780+vat
Snip-a-bit
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh yes I weigh 250 pounds. The bike will weigh 500 pounds aprox with motor,
Batteries, frame etc. Maybe a bit more. 340 for batteries. 50 pounds
for the A89. Controller, DC/DC Tires seat 110 pounds. It'll be tight.
I may have to up my prediction. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
>I'm starting a new project. A recumbent Motorcycle ...
SNIP
This is the basic design. Any suggestions?
Yep. Hop on the Feet Forwards group and show it to the guys over there
who've been building such things for years. There are some folks there who
have made their life's work the design and development of recumbent
powered two-wheelers.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feet_forward/
Some notes. Wheel-base is WAAAAY to long. If you can, stack some of the
batteries on top of the first row, in between your legs. You could
probably chop at least a foot if not more off the wheel-base without
adversely affecting Cg. Also, your weight is a bit incredible. 750 Lbs? I
think you'll find that very hard to control. Under 500 would be a much
easier thing to control. Are you including your own weight in this?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
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"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
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naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
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Lee wrote:
> We need to find better ways to lure people into EVs. We need to find
> people who are uncomfortable with ICEs, and *want* an "out of the box"
> solution; who are already prepared to pay more and suffer some
> inconvenience to get it. Freedom costs more, you know; but it has
other
> rewards!
I have been thinking about this a bit. I have been paying attention to
CNG vehicles for a while, and I wonder whether this might be a stepping
stone between ICEs and EVs. There are production CNG vehicles out
there. They drive just like ICE vehicles. They have at least two
advantages in common with EVs: They are "greener" than ICEs (and in CA,
can drive in the carpool lanes solo), and they can be refilled at home.
They also have two of the popularly perceived "disadvantages" that EVs
have: limited places to refuel, and long refueling times (at home
stations, not at commercial "quick-fuel" stations).
Honda recently announced (according to
http://www.fuelmaker.com/News/PressReleases/News__45.htm) an effort to
sell CNG vehicles to the public (along with home filling stations) in CA
starting Spring 2005 (we'll see if that happens). If this occurs, and
people buy home fueling stations and CNG vehicles, they will soon learn
three things:
1) refueling nightly at home and having a full "tank" every morning is
way more convenient than stopping at a gas station once a week (or more)
2) long refueling times at home really don't matter, since you do it at
night when you're asleep anyway
3) most drivers rarely drive outside their vehicle's range, so limited
fueling stations really isn't a problem, and on the rare occasions you
do longer trips, you either take another car, or you plan your route
accordingly and find fueling stations ahead of time
All three of the above lessons apply to EVs just as much as to CNG
vehicles. The people that buy a CNG vehicle and see that the
"disadvantages" are really non-issues to most drivers might be more
willing to take the next step and go fully electric on the next vehicle.
Once they've taken the step to CNG, it's a relatively small step to
electric.
The advantage to using something like CNG as a bridge between ICEs and
EVs is that automakers DO make production CNG vehicles (though not
many), and it appears that at least one (Honda) will soon try to market
CNG vehicles to the public, at least in CA. This is something that
wasn't really done with EVs.
Dean
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EVLN(EVs are exempt from sales tax in Delhi)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/997212.cms
Electric-vehicle maker seeks tax reliefAdd to Clippings
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, JANUARY 20, 2005 11:27:57 AM ]
Sign into earnIndiatimes points
PUNE: Manufacturers of the zero polluting electric vehicle (EV),
Reva,
on Thursday expressed confidence that Maharashtra, following the
latest initiatives by the Union ministry for non-conventional
energy
sources, will provide both sales and road tax exemption to spruce
up
sales.
Chetan Maini, deputy chairman and chief technology officer of the
Bangalore-based company, which has a tie-up with the US based AEV
LLC, said the EVs are exempt from sales tax in Delhi, Karnataka,
Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan, Goa and Pondicherry.
It is also exempt from road tax in Karnataka, Rajasthan, Andhra
Pradesh, West Bengal, Goa and Pondicherry.
Maini was in the city to receive the SESI 2004 Business Leadership
Award at the International Congress on Renewable Energy (ICORE). He
has earlier been awarded the prestigious Dr M S Swaminathan award
for environment protection in 2001 and the YEO Thomas Alva Edison
award for entrepreneurship and innovation in February 2002.
"We have made a few representations before the Maharashtra
government to exempt the EVs from both sales and road tax, but
there hasn't been response so far," he said. He, however, added
that the Union ministry has asked all states in the country to
promote the EVs and other fuelcell-run vehicles under its
ambitious alternative surface transportation programme.
Demonstrating the advanced prototype of a fuel cell operated
version of Reva, which works on the proton exchange membrane (PEM)
principle, Maini underlined to need to have uniform policies
throughout the country to promote vehicles operating on non-
conventional sources.
The latest model, according to Maini, converts hydrogen and
oxygen from air in a non-combustive electrochemical reaction to
generate electric power. Compared to the conventional IC engines,
the fuelcell technology is 50% more energy-efficient, he said,
explaining that since pure water is the only emission, it is
the "greenest technology" to power the car.
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Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
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informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15097482%26method=full%26siteid=50003-name_page.html
Clooney's car is the star! Jan 20 2005 By Emma Race
Hollywood heartthrob George Clooney has splashed out £45,000 on an
electric car branded "made in Warwickshire".
George Clooney and his amazing electric car!
The tiny Tango, which is guaranteed to turn heads on the streets of
Los Angeles, is being built by staff at Prodrive, which is based
near Kenilworth.
The millionaire Batman movie star, who has a collection of classic
motorbikes, was so impressed when he heard about the new
eco-friendly
car that he's having it shipped to his home in LA.
Prodrive, which is based in Oldwich Lane East, Fen End, is an
automotive technology specialist, which works on the design and
construction of limited edition vehicles.
The car the former ER star has ordered is a prototype of a
futuristic electric car, which the American designers hope will
eventually be available to the mass market.
The car is distinctive not only for the way it operates - its
electric
battery needs to be regularly recharged - but also because of its
shape and size.
Ben Sayer, spokesman for Prodrive, said: "The electric car is a
two-
seater and very narrow. It's only a metre wide - half the width of
an
average car.
"It was designed with the Californian market in mind as it's very
environmentally friendly and ideal for moving easily through
traffic."
And the car's ability to avoid traffic queues by nip-ping between
other
cars - just like a motorcycle - is perhaps what attracted George's
interest. He is known to be a fan of Harley Davidson motorcycles.
But the car's makers think George also wanted to be one of the
first to
own a Tango because of the car's green credentials.
Mr Sayer added: "George Clooney is known to be interested in green
issues and electric cars because they are environmentally
friendly."
Staff at Kenilworth, who have just completed the chassis, have been
told whose car they are making.
Mr Sayer said: "We're approaching the project in the same way as we
would any other, although it is unusual to be working for someone
with
such a high profile."
The car will be sent off to the USA in two weeks time and staff are
currently working on installing its electrics, steering wheel and
interior.
George is expected to use the car for a year in a deal negotiated
by
The Commuter Car Corporation and Prodrive is already lined up to
make
him a replacement next year.
Trinity Mirror Plc 2005 icCoventryTM of Trinity Mirror Plc.
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EVLN(Look before you scoot)
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http://www.palmbeachpost.com/accent/content/accent/epaper/2005/01/20/a6e_roncol_0120.html
Scooter proves no easy ride for senior By Ron Wiggins
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Thursday, January 20, 2005
This is a story with a moral, which we will get out of the way
right
now: Look before you scoot.
If you are disabled and need a power-operated vehicle to get
around,
your medical insurance can pay for up to 80 percent of the purchase
price.
But not necessarily.
Take the honeyed promises of electric scooter salespeople with a
pillar of salt until you have your insurance approval in writing.
Yes, you may get reimbursement, and the staff of the scooter
manufacturer is eager to help you, but as a Great American once
said,
the devil is in the details. For Medicare or your supplemental
health insurance to pay for a power chair or electric scooter,
there is a process and it is not a slam dunk. Do not — repeat — do
not let anyone tell you that if you'll just charge the expense of
an electric vehicle on your credit card, his company will take care
of the paperwork.
Sure, they'll try. But what if they fail?
Rose D'Angelo, 77, arthritic and disabled by a stroke, bought a
deluxe Rascal scooter, and found herself not only ineligible for
insurance help with her $6,200 scooter and car lift, she was stuck
with the whole bill at a demoralizing 15.5 percent interest rate on
her Sears Master Charge.
When I called Electric Mobility Corp. of Sewell, N.J., makers of
the Rascal line of power chairs, and summarized D'Angelo's
experience with their company, they agreed that something had gone
wrong in the handling of their sale to D'Angelo, and promptly
refunded $4,200 on her credit card.
George Weatherstone, director of client relations said: "We have
alerted our insurance compliance committee (the arm of Electric
Mobility that helps customers qualify for insurance help), and
started an investigation. We need to know just how this happened
and make sure it never happens again."
The spokesman said that records show D'Angelo signed a purchase
agreement indicating she fully understood that the company could
not promise her a rebate, whatever else a salesman may have told
her. Efforts to reach the salesman were unsuccessful.
OK, happy ending.
Less so, the widow's last six months.
Before a stroke last May partially paralyzed her left side and
limited her ability to use her right arm, D'Angelo had undergone
a hip and two knee replacements and was getting around very well
with a small battery-propelled power chair that she bought 18
months ago for $2,000. Her personal assistant, Paula Dowdy, was
able to fold and tuck the smaller scooter into the car for trips
to the doctor and shopping. After the stroke, D'Angelo could still
operate her first scooter but felt top-heavy and in danger of
toppling.
"That's when I saw the TV ad for the Rascal," she said. "It was
wider, with a heavier base. I called the company and when the
salesman brought it over, I felt much safer on it and it came with
a power-lift for my car."
The price was stiff, but when the salesman assured D'Angelo that
electric scooters were routinely approved by Medicare and patient
supplemental insurance, she signed a purchase order and put it on
her Master Card.
"He told me that it would take four to six weeks to get my rebate
and that I would get 80 percent. It never came," she said. "When
it didn't come and didn't come, I was frantic."
She was on the phone with the salesman, with Rascal's insurance
compliance department, and even Humana, her HMO, and for two or
three months every person she talked to assured her that her claim
was
moving through the pipeline and that her check would be
forthcoming.
And then, about two months ago, she learned Humana never got her
doctor's referral and that her claim was denied.
"I don't understand it," she said. "The doctor is supposed to write
a
prescription and sign a referral, and it wasn't done. If the
company
wasn't taking care of all that like they said, what were they
doing?"
Dowdy, her helper, said that when D'Angelo became upset on the
telephone,
she handled some of the calls and can attest to her employer's
willingness to cooperate.
"This bill keeps coming every month," D'Angelo said. "I'm poor. My
son
pays for my apartment and Paula. I love my Rascal, but I was
promised a
rebate."
Promised a rebate? I doubt it. But if you are disabled and insured,
what
are you left to believe when the company's advertising states:
"Our expert staff has over 20 years of insurance claims processing
experience and will help you every step of the way. We'll work with
your
physician and handle the paperwork and deliver to your home if you
qualify."
The problem, of course, is that when you sign a purchase order and
put
it on your credit card, an expensive piece of merchandise will be
delivered to your home even if you don't qualify. Again, plaudits
to
Rascal for rebating 80 percent of the stroke patient's money when I
called to explain her circumstances.
If you're thinking of seeking insurance help to cover the cost of a
POV,
you need to do a little research. First, if you are disabled and
file
with Medicare, you may qualify for an 80 percent payment for a
three- or
four-wheel non-highway scooter that costs a little over $2,000.
To get the payment, your doctor must prescribe a scooter as
medically
necessary. And while Medicare will not pay much more than $2,000
for a
top-of the-line scooter or a lift accessory, your supplemental
insurance
may kick in, but only after you check this out between your doctor
and
your insurer.
Is it that simple? No, not by a long shot, or Rose D'Angelo would
not
have called me last week in a state of nervous collapse and
aggravated
budgetary meltdown.
One more time. Get your prescription and referral from your
physician,
and blessings from all insurers — and then order your scooter.
Meanwhile, if you are in the market for a small electric scooter at
half price, D'Angelo has a dandy.
Copyright © 2005, The Palm Beach Post. All rights reserved.
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