EV Digest 4050
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Interacter 12V Battery Charger
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) re: some basic questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Some basic questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Interacter 12V Battery Charger
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Some basic questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Some basic questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re-Send 4044 and 4046 ???
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Re-Send 4044 and 4046 ???
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Doing something, if I can sell my Escape Hybrid
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for
the CHP
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Some basic questions
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC motor Q's
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) OT: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: OT: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the
CHP
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Fwd: OT: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for an off the shelf charger just for charging indivual 12V
batteries. I would like one that has a 3-stage charge and can be set for Wet,
AGM and gel batteries. It would be nice if it is temperature compensated.
MK Battery, where I purchased my gel batteries, has on their web site
"Interacter" battery chargers. They look like all I need and cost around $139.
Any body have good or bad comments about these chargers or maybe suggest another
brand?
thanks
Don
P.S. I did search the archive but, suprisingly, no such luck.
P.P.S. I know I can use my PFC-30, but it is installed in the car and a bit of
a pain to set up for charging batteries while I drive down the road.
-------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart"
Your Post got me thinking about where we are , and how on a time line
looking at things up close , gives a different picture than standing back. I
was thinking about how you start a camp fire , a little like what we are
doing . A bunch of big logs (car makers ) won't be much good at first ,
small pieces of wood , bark , and sticks (nev's ev bikes ect) piled around a
log or two ( conversion's) . I think one of our short coming is that we are
so far apart . When there is only one person , in a town doing something ,
like EV;s its easy to call him a nut .. people are not quite so quick to
join a group of one. I'm not sure but from what I read there are a lot of EV
people around John Wayland's neck of the woods. How did this happen? If we
were looking at a time line where we start with one and watch it grow my
guess would be that after two things start to pick up speed. I know right
now most on the list with ev's would say , " I'm the only EV in town or for
miles " .
> >> But we need some sort of "magic spark" to leap out of the screen
> >> and zap the reader into turning off the computer and going out
> >> into the garage to actually BUILD something!
>
And maybe doing it with other people , The EV clubs are a good idea , but
you have to have more that one to start with , which I;m pretty sure that
most of us EV'er just can't fine another EV'er in our home town.
>
> I think this same spirit would work for building EVs. You just need to
> get a critical mass of people to show up regularly in someone's garage,
> and have some sort of club project to work on.
Yes maybe an ad in the local paper , could have a web address at the end .
www.evalbum.com . Now what if we all did it at once. ?
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!"
Sometimes when I'm talking to people and they say , everything thing is ok
now , we'll deal with "the problem " later . but lets look at where we are
right now as being in a car and running out of oil as a brick wall . We can
argue how far away the wall is , and how much time it will take to stop .
But right now we are still accelerating , we have not taken are foot off the
gas , not even tested the brakes , and the driver says he has something in
the trunk call a fool cell that will stop the car on a dime. . Well this
is what drives me to do what most would say is a "poor business plan " . I
know that I must make my Ev business make money for it to grow , so I can
make better EV's with better parts for more people . At some point I'll need
to let go of one rope and grab another , My lawn business has been
supporting my EV effort , after 20 years it runs like a clock , . funny how
one thread can run through so many parts of life , give up something you
know and can count on for something new , different ,. Like that bird in
the cage you were talking about. I hope there are lurkers out there thinking
about doing a conversion , and after reading a post do it , but how about
all you EV's that are thinking of starting there own shop, business , club
or rally. Are you not is the same place as when you where thinking about
doing your first conversion ? do you wish you had waited?
Steve Clunn
-- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am less qualified than others on this list to answer these, but I'll have a go
I'm still trying to grasp this whole electric
range/performance thing..
For these questions, lets use a 2500lb glider as the target
weight, regardless of motor size and battery number to keep
this simple.
1. Which motor would be the fastest in the 1/4 mile? The
8, 9, 11, or 13" WarP motor?
What can you push and how good is cooling, If you have the power budget, more motor
is usually more torque. Given equal pole counts torque increases with square of
diameter(but mostly wasted in wound rotor , so only sean in permanent magnet motors)
and linearly with motor length. Now 2 8inchers as opposed to one 9" is gonna
have more avail AND 2 operating points, more in answer 4...
2. What number of 12v batteries in series would cause the
motor to be limited by a Zilla 1K?
At what motor RPM? The motor is a generator at the same time it is a motor. The difference betweens the battery voltage and the motor voltage is what pushes the amps. Off the line, the voltage difference between the motor's bemf and the applied voltage is at a max, I=V/R, V is high and R is very low so I, the amps is at the max so the zilla is the limit. As you progress down the track, the RPM's climb and the BEMF goes up, the voltage difference dimenishes and the amps that can be dimenished drops. At some point these two lines cross,
Looking at the torque curve sheet from evParts for the 9"
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2120/mt2120torquecurvenofan.PDF
we can see that 1000amps isn't even on the chart, but look for example at a 400 amp controller on a 120V system 400 amps gives us 90LBft of torque, reguardless of system voltage and at 90lb.ft we cross the rpm line at 2750 rpm. Lets say 2nd gear at 8:1 ration including diffy, that would be 344 wheel rpm and 720lbft wheel torque. Lets use a 24" OD wheel; circumference is 75.4" (5280*12)/75.4 = 840 rev/mile 840rpm=60mph so 344rpm is 24.6mph. Furthormore F=M*A and the force is 720 lb (convienint 1 foot radius)= 3000lb *A
so Acceleration is .24G, (pathetic) From that rpm onward it gets worse. Raise the voltage to 144, just 1 battery, and the rpm that amps and torque drop of is 3250, 406rpm, 29mph.
So you start at the limit of the controller and that 240lb-ft of torque is maintainable for first ____rpm, i need to figure or measure this, maybe rich has this info.
3. Let's say I could fit 18 batteries in the trunk alone
for a 216 volt setup. I could also fit 7 more where the
back seat is for a 300 volt setup. The three drawbacks to
25 vs's 18 would be the increase in weight, the additional
battery expense, and to a lesser extent, the loss of the
back seat.
25 vs 18 weight wise is some percentage of overall weight gain, Acceleration is
lost up to the point discussed, then torque doesnt drop off as early so it is
better accelerationm at upper rpm's
With the 2500lb car, whichever motor, and the Zilla 2k if
needed, what could the 1/4 mile be with 216 and 300 volts?
I,uh,er, are we starting a pool? Their are so many variables. The z2k is an awful lot of
power, like the suck amps video says could power a whole neighborhood. I think 1-8" would
be too small, but I hear a 9" just comes alive at 1000 amps. It becomes more an issue of
heat dissapation, not breaking axles,drivelines,gears, etc. I think you can see the logic
behind no the no transmission zombie with dual 8", series parallel switching to give 2
operating points and the bypass contactor to get around the current limit at higher voltages
problem.
4. With a series setup, does more batteries equal more
range?
yes
What type of range could be expected with either the
216 or 300 volt setup? Orbitals most likely.
If I am picking a number out of thin air, (my EV isn't even done yet, but I
have been lurking, calculating, scheaming for years) I am gonna say 30 miles to
80% DOD in 70degree weather. My 300Vzx is to have 25 orbitals on a zilla 1K, I
need 24miles per day and am hoping that will workout. I may have to do some
work to raise efficency and lower weight.
Series or parallel, KWH is KW; well sortof, Higher voltage systems have lower
currents and therfore less loss. This does not neccesarily apply to high
battery voltage and a low voltage wound motor, then the controller converts and
the losses are compounded. See argument between AC and DC sytems for more on
this subject :-)
Thanks for any info.
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> I'm still trying to grasp this whole electric
> range/performance thing..
>
> For these questions, lets use a 2500lb glider as the target
> weight, regardless of motor size and battery number to keep
> this simple.
>
> 1. Which motor would be the fastest in the 1/4 mile? The
> 8, 9, 11, or 13" WarP motor?
The one you stuff the most kilowatts into. I.e. any of these motors
could be the fastest, depending on circumstances. This will be
determined more by the batteries and controller -- they are the weak
link, not the motor.
> 2. What number of 12v batteries in series would cause the
> motor to be limited by a Zilla 1K?
It depends on the gearing. The faster the motor turns, the higher the
pack voltage you will need.
At low rpm, your HP is limited by the controller's motor current limit.
Battery pack voltage makes no difference. You just need batteries stout
enough to supply the current.
As rpm rises, motor voltage rises (and motor current stays the same;
i.e. in current limit). This means torque is constant, but with rising
speed, HP is rising, too.
At some speed, the controller reaches full-on. This is your point of
maximum HP. Like an ICE, you typically shift gears to hold the motor rpm
at/near this speed as you accellerate to maintain peak HP.
As motor rpm continues to increase, now the controller is fully on and
doing nothing. The current falls as rpm increases. Thus HP falls as
speed increases. So, your HP vs. RPM curve looks like this:
HP
max | /\
| / \
0 |/____\__rpm
0 max
Interestingly enough, the motor only affects the rpm scale; not the peak
HP (except that some motors are more efficient; and all the motors you
mentioned are basically the same). It's the controller and batteries
that set the HP scale.
A further complication (as if it isn't complicated enough!) is that some
controllers like the Zillas have a programmable battery current limit.
This limits the battery current so you can use undersized lightweight
batteries for racing or economy runs without destroying them. A battery
current limit forces a HP limit -- the above curve gets a flat top above
the set max HP.
HP
max | __
| / \
0 |/____\__rpm
0 max
Such a limit normally reduces the max HP, and slows accelleration.
However, it also reduces the need for shifting -- you get the same HP
over a range of rpm. So, even though the HP is less, you can use a much
lighter battery pack and get greater accelleration from the weight
savings. Or, if you're in a range contest, limiting battery current
makes them last longer (and keeps your speed down), to provide greater
range.
The other limit is heat. The motor will overheat long before the Zilla
does. Heat won't bother you in a 1/4-mile drag race, but it will on the
street. Here, the bigger the motor, the longer it can produce a given
amount of HP before it overheats.
> 3. Let's say I could fit 18 batteries in the trunk alone
> for a 216 volt setup. I could also fit 7 more where the
> back seat is for a 300 volt setup. The three drawbacks to
> 25 vs's 18 would be the increase in weight, the additional
> battery expense, and to a lesser extent, the loss of the
> back seat.
>
> With the 2500lb car, whichever motor, and the Zilla 2k if
> needed, what could the 1/4 mile be with 216 and 300 volts?
Voltage has (almost) nothing to do with it. It's all about power and
weight. You'll get the best 1/4-mile time with whatever battery pack is
the lightest and delivers the most kilowatts for the 10-20 seconds
needed. Once you know this number, you pick a controller that can handle
that much power as well. Then finally, you pick a motor that won't burn
up or arc or fly apart at that power level.
> 4. With a series setup, does more batteries equal more
> range? What type of range could be expected with either the
> 216 or 300 volt setup? Orbitals most likely.
More battery *weight* equals more range. It doesn't much matter what
voltage, or how they are wired.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This episode might air next month:
http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I am looking for an off the shelf charger just for charging
>indivual 12V
>batteries. I would like one that has a 3-stage charge and
>can be set for Wet,
>AGM and gel batteries.
You might have a look at this one:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=42301
~$400 though :(
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=eproduct.asp&N=120+400105+305284
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Suggest you peruse http://www.nedra.com and see what the
>electric
>drag racers do with various numbers of batteries.
I looked at that and the voltage and 1/4 mile numbers are
all over the place. I don't see any consistency or patterns
except for the top 4 cars on the list. From there it is a
mix and match of different voltages running different times:
http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html
>Something else to consider is front wheel drive or rear
>wheel drive?
Sorry, I should have mentioned it's rear wheel drive.
>for range figure about 300 Wh per Optima
>or Orbital, and between 150 Wh/mile (optimistic) and 250
>Wh/mile
>(more realistic). I like Bill Dube's metric, take the car's
>original
>gas mileage and figure that's about how many miles about
>1000 pounds
>of lead acid batteries will take you.
So with a 25 battery setup, 50 miles best case, and 30 miles
worse case.. That will work for me. 18 bats at 36 best /
21 worse is cutting it close. I can go everywhere I need to
go with the 25 setup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Another good site for edification purposes is
>>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ -
>>should be required reading for every new listee *before*
>>they post their first
>>question. Plenty of other sites for those who need more
>>basic knowledge of
>>electricity and batteries -- got google?
I've been to that album many times. At this point, I'm
feeling like I've been to all the EV sites. Let me post all
my bookmarks; maybe I've missed a site or three?
Parts/Info
http://www.cafeelectric.com/
http://www.canev.com/
http://www.cloudelectric.com/
http://www.electroauto.com/
http://www.ev-america.com/
http://www.evparts.com/
http://www.grassrootsev.com/
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/
http://www.matchesmotors.com/
http://www.quickcable.com/
http://www.waytekwire.com/
http://www.becketts.ws/eaa/forsale.htm
Battery Group numbers and dimensional specifications:
http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/bcigroup.html
Battery strap/rack sizes and bolts sizes:
http://www.nedra.com/rulebook_tables.html
"So You Want to Build an Electric Car"
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4214/build.html
Personal pages:
http://www.creativespirits.org/ev/s10/
http://www.electric7.com/
http://www.jerryrig.com/convert/
http://www.socalev.com/
http://students.washington.edu/toro66/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear List Managers...
Is there Any Way to re-send these two digests. There were LOTS of
messages I would love to read, but it seems no one ever received them.
Can some one explain what happened ?? Or is it just too much trouble ?
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This episode might air next month:
> http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
>From this link:
"The project will serve as a memorial to the officers of the California
Highway Patrol who have died in the line of duty."
and
"This project will be a testament to heroism, technology and the
traditions of the CHP."
Gawd bless OCC for building an electric, and HE knows that being a
peace officer is dangerous work, and good people die, but a "memorial"
motor bike?
The only "memorial" I could find on their site was for a fellow that
made his name with world class graphics painted on vehicles?
I guess for my nextgen (illegal) escooter, I'll paint it the colour of
our national flag and dedicate it to all our fallen police officers.
I wonder if this will make a diff. the next time I am pulled over by
one of our finest...
It just seems a bit crass to me as an EV promo...
lock
eLegal and loving it
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Is there Any Way to re-send these two digests. There were
>LOTS of
>messages I would love to read, but it seems no one ever
>received them.
>Can some one explain what happened ?? Or is it just too
>much trouble ?
I see them archived in full here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/messages
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I checked out the picture of this bike I was horrified. Why couldn't
they get someone like Reverend Gadget who has a sense of style to build it.
It appears to be a conversion. It is well below the creative abilities of
Paul Jr. OCC has totally sold out on this one. It is not a fitting memorial
to the fallen officers. It is obviously a publicity stunt by Whistler
Investments. Anyone out there know of this company and it's subsidiary,
Global Electric Motors. Anyone out there seen one of their E-Cobra
motorcycles which appears to be a standard issue Chinese motor scooter with
new paint. Is this another one of "Those" companies. I would love to receive
any information on this, either on list or off.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:30 AM
Subject: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
This episode might air next month:
http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lock,
I considered the same for my Currie. The only problem is that if you have
to step off (or fall off) for some reason, you're going to be tethered to the
scoot. Might want to consider some kind of quick-disconnect in that case.
Plus some heavy wires from your backpack to your scoot are going to
make you more conspicuous to the police.
My other thought was some kind of box, such as an ammo box or metal
lunch box, that could quickly fasten to the rear of the scoot with wing nuts
or some other quick disconnect. If painted to match the scoot, people
might just think it's a storage box.
The best thing about a backpack or box is that more people are likely to
let you plug in a backpack or box than drag a scooter inside (especially
restaurants.) You could just ask, "may I plug in my battery charger
somewhere while I work?"
Tim
------
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:37:50 -0500 (EST)
> From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hiya
>
> I haven't done this, but in theory it would be easy to carry a second
> batt pack (approx.20lbs? depends...) in my backpack (battpack?), wired
> with plug into my charging port on the scoot... well, easy if you don't
> mind the extra weight on the back <smile>. I'm sure it's better to keep
> the weight lower down, but...
>
> In mulling designs for my nextgen scoot, my pack will definitely be
> easily "swapable", whether built in to the scoot or on my back, or
> both.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The BIG problem is that as we all sit here at our computers reading
and looking at the pretty pictures, we aren't really *doing* anything!
I don't suppose anyone here wants to buy an Escape Hybrid? I've decided to get
one of the S10's at evbones, but can't afford both. Living in Corvallis now, I
can't go far enough to give the hybrid a chance to work, and am not really
seeing any benefit from it (well, it does still get half again the mileage my
Explorer did, at it's worst, and double at its best). Someone living in
Portland or Seattle would be ideal for it --- a lot of low speed stop and go.
AWD, Titanium Green w/Nav system, 110V outlet and rear cargo cover options.
Between 4-5K miles. $30K
http://alan.batie.org/photos/canon-a70/2004/1106-escape/
http://alan.batie.org/photos/canon-a70/2004/1113_marys_peak/
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2005-01-23 at 13:45 -0500, Lock Hughes wrote:
> --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This episode might air next month:
> > http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
>
> >From this link:
> "The project will serve as a memorial to the officers of the California
> Highway Patrol who have died in the line of duty."
> and
> "This project will be a testament to heroism, technology and the
> traditions of the CHP."
>
> Gawd bless OCC for building an electric, and HE knows that being a
> peace officer is dangerous work, and good people die, but a "memorial"
> motor bike?
>
> The only "memorial" I could find on their site was for a fellow that
> made his name with world class graphics painted on vehicles?
The David Mann bike is just one of many memorial bikes OCC has done. It
is one of their on-going themes.
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim
I'll take my chances (tethered)... the plug is a straight pull out, not
locking. Cord would follow along my arm to the handlebar, w/velcro
loop "armband" to attach. I travel "low and slow"...
My nextgen scoot will be built around a duffelbag... think shopping
cart you can ride. Handlebars retract, but deploy out of the top of
the bag. Bottom of bag has 1/2 of hub motor sticking out. Steering
via slalom truck on skateboard attached to bottom of bag.
Skateboard deck folds up and disappears into fold/flap/pocket along the
side of duffel.
Bag is chopped into compartments for groceries/whatever, with lowest
compartments housing top 1/2 of hub motor plus batts (insulated
compartments like some collapsible fabric coolers.)
With handlebars and deck tucked away, I will be able to sling the
duffel over my shoulder. Most materials will be wood and canvas.
Most establishments will let me bring my "luggage" inside with me.
<grin>
Lock
--- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Lock,
>
> I considered the same for my Currie. The only problem is that if you
> have
> to step off (or fall off) for some reason, you're going to be
> tethered to the
> scoot. Might want to consider some kind of quick-disconnect in that
> case.
> Plus some heavy wires from your backpack to your scoot are going to
> make you more conspicuous to the police.
>
> My other thought was some kind of box, such as an ammo box or metal
> lunch box, that could quickly fasten to the rear of the scoot with
> wing nuts
> or some other quick disconnect. If painted to match the scoot,
> people
> might just think it's a storage box.
>
> The best thing about a backpack or box is that more people are likely
> to
> let you plug in a backpack or box than drag a scooter inside
> (especially
> restaurants.) You could just ask, "may I plug in my battery charger
> somewhere while I work?"
>
> Tim
>
> ------
> > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:37:50 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Hiya
> >
> > I haven't done this, but in theory it would be easy to carry a
> second
> > batt pack (approx.20lbs? depends...) in my backpack (battpack?),
> wired
> > with plug into my charging port on the scoot... well, easy if you
> don't
> > mind the extra weight on the back <smile>. I'm sure it's better to
> keep
> > the weight lower down, but...
> >
> > In mulling designs for my nextgen scoot, my pack will definitely be
> > easily "swapable", whether built in to the scoot or on my back, or
> > both.
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, I experienced the same thing when I started my conversion last
year. I really wanted clear information on how to build my car. In your case
it would be nice if there was a book on "how to build a drag racing EV". I
cannot answer any of your questions about DC systems, but it is worthwhile
to get the book "Build your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brandt. It is very
good at explaining EV physics (even though the technology is 10 years old).
As for range and performance, as Lee (the EV Guru) mentioned in his note,
more battery weight means more range.
Lets say you have 20 batteries. These batteries are rated at 80Amp-hours.
This is typically calculated over a period of 20 hours (called the C/20
rate), being 4 Amps drawn each hour for the 20 hours. For a typical EV
though, we are interested in how much can be drawn in about an hour. This
is the C/1 rate, and is much less than the C/20 rate. For our example, lets
say that the C/1 rate is 60 Amp-hours.
But hold it a sec, this rate is to 100% discharge. If you do that to your
battery often, it won't last very long. It is better to only discharge the
battery to 50% discharge, or even better to 20%.
OK, so now our 80A-hr battery, which is really on 60A-hr at the 1 hour rate,
is really on 30A-hr of usable capacity.
So if these 20 batteries were wired in series, you would get 20 x 12V =
240V. And you have a usable capacity of 30A-hr (batteries wired in series
keep the same current rating). The energy in the pack is then 240V x 30A-hr
= 7,200 Watt-hrs.
What if you wired the batteries in two series strings of 10, and made them
parallel? one string would be 10 x 12V = 120V, in parallel, the voltage
would be the same, 120V. However, in parallel, the capacity would double 2
x 30A-hr = 60 A-hrs. So the energy in the pack would be: 120V x 60Amp-hrs =
7,200 Watt-hrs - The same amount of energy. And it is the energy that
dictates the range.
As Lee says: no matter which way you wire them, the 20 batteries would still
give the same range (roughly).
Then why would anybody want higher or lower voltage? Higher voltage is more
efficient, as it does not need as big of wires. But it is harder to get
parts (400V relays for example are a pain and expensive), and scares the
pants of people because of the higher voltage (although 120V can do just a
good a job at killing people). I am sure others will post some other good
reasons one way and the other.
Another advantage to higher voltage, is that you can then pull more current
from your batteries. ( Volts x Amps = Power, raise the volts, keep the same
amps, the power goes up). This then means more energy can be delivered to
your drive and controller. I would think for a drag EV this would be a good
thing. Looking at the NEDRA numbers, I notice that the quickest times with
fastest speeds are high voltage systems.
So, how to pick a drive and controller for your EV? If you want to drag an
EV, just like with your gas engines, the same rules apply: reduce weight and
increase power. Then make sure you can get that power to the wheel and make
it stick. As Lee points out, you want to pick battery that has the most
energy for the weight.
Keep in mind that different types of batteries have limits to the amount of
energy that can be delivered in a period of time (power). For instance, a
gel battery, which I am using in my EV, can only deliver 200Amps of current,
maybe 250A extreme. Whereas an AGM can deliver 1000Amps (maybe even
better?). For a drag EV, gel cells are a no-no.
I am not a dragster EVer, and I am new at this, so take all this with a
grain of salt. I will leave it up to the board to correct or fine tune my
understanding. If I was going to build a drag EV, I would be going to NEDRA
races and emailing all those NEDRA guys: John Wayland, Rodrick
Wilde(EvParts), Rich Rudman (Manzanita Micro PFC chargers), Bill Dube, Dave
Cloud, etc. They would hate me.
Good luck.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: January 23, 2005 12:02 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Some basic questions
I'm still trying to grasp this whole electric range/performance thing..
For these questions, lets use a 2500lb glider as the target weight,
regardless of motor size and battery number to keep this simple.
1. Which motor would be the fastest in the 1/4 mile? The 8, 9, 11, or 13"
WarP motor?
2. What number of 12v batteries in series would cause the motor to be
limited by a Zilla 1K?
3. Let's say I could fit 18 batteries in the trunk alone for a 216 volt
setup. I could also fit 7 more where the back seat is for a 300 volt setup.
The three drawbacks to
25 vs's 18 would be the increase in weight, the additional battery expense,
and to a lesser extent, the loss of the back seat.
With the 2500lb car, whichever motor, and the Zilla 2k if needed, what could
the 1/4 mile be with 216 and 300 volts?
4. With a series setup, does more batteries equal more range? What type of
range could be expected with either the
216 or 300 volt setup? Orbitals most likely.
Thanks for any info.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2005-01-23 at 11:13 -0800, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> When I checked out the picture of this bike I was horrified. Why couldn't
> they get someone like Reverend Gadget who has a sense of style to build it.
> It appears to be a conversion. It is well below the creative abilities of
> Paul Jr. OCC has totally sold out on this one. It is not a fitting memorial
> to the fallen officers. It is obviously a publicity stunt by Whistler
> Investments. Anyone out there know of this company and it's subsidiary,
> Global Electric Motors. Anyone out there seen one of their E-Cobra
> motorcycles which appears to be a standard issue Chinese motor scooter with
> new paint. Is this another one of "Those" companies. I would love to receive
> any information on this, either on list or off.
I don't think that the picture is the "memorial" bike from OCC. The
article says "a project of significant importance has been initiated
with officers from the California Highway Patrol and Whistler
Investments, Inc"..... note the "initiated" part. Nothing is said of it
actually happening.
If I remember correctly, I once did some digging on this company I found
a lot of negative results about the scamming ways of its founders. Some
examples that I could find just now in a quick search....
http://www.stocklemon.com/articles/03_12_04.html
http://www.stocklemon.com/articles/04_15_04.html
http://www.stocklemon.com/articles/09_09_04.html
Here is a message board on them:
http://netscape5.marketwatch.com/discussions/msgIndex.asp?siteId=mktw&parentId=2&forumId=27&boardId=61233
Lonnie
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--- Begin Message ---
Good post Richard, I would also value a refresher. I am looking to source an
AC motor myself and could use some input. I am trying to find an AC motor
rated for 1.25-1.5 HP continuous, approx 1700 rpm, can be (probably should
be) open framed for weight and for cooling but should be somewhat moisture
resistant, and as efficient and small as posible. Also cost is a factor. I
know I need to strike a balance between size, efficiency, and cost
requirements. I could use some help narrowing down the path somewhat. It can
be multi phase if that would help on the size/efficiency. And from a cost
standpoint it will pretty much have to be something already commercially
produced and not "hi tech" or limited production. There are just so many
motor types (induction, wound rotor, pm?) out there that its hard for me to
seperate the forrest from the trees.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
<Snipped for brevity>
I'm trying to recall Lee's posts about rewinding
AC motors, and how much power you can actually get
out of them.
If I'm remembering correctly, by reconnecting the 4 sets
of stator windings in parallel rather than series, I can
drop the voltage requirements by a factor of 4.
So a 600V inverter becomes a slightly safer 150V inverter...
Obviously the current goes up by a factor of 4.
By running the motor twice as fast, ( 2900 rpm, from an
inverter output of 100 Hz 3 phase), I can get 2x nameplate
HP out. So now I'm at 15 HP output - getting pretty interesting!
I seem to remember Lee having another trick to double
the power again, but can't remember what it is.
Can you remind me Lee?
Thanks!
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It appears to be a conversion.
That's the only kind of work OCC seems to do. Buy everything off the
shelf, weld on some dohickies and call it a custom.
It is well below the creative abilities of Paul Jr. OCC has totally
sold out on this one.
Paul has very limited creative abilities to begin with as evidenced by
his lack of fabrication skills (compared with other "real" custom
chopper builders who do it all from scratch). With the exception of an
episode here and there, this show has been lacking on "creative
integrity" from the word go. Like "Monster Garage", the show is almost
always just an advertising vehicle for whatever sponsor the show has
week to week.
It is not a fitting memorial to the fallen officers. It is obviously a
publicity stunt by Whistler Investments.
Bingo. I'm sure ANY company could have had this slot (or an episode on
Monster Garage for that matter) if they wanted to pony up the $$.
Personally, I'd rather see a real custom chopper builder do a totally
custom EV cycle. I'd want to see a custom designed frame so that the
batteries and motor are mounted asthetically. I'd like to see complete
fabrication from stem to stern on a public EV motorcycle build like this
one.
I'm curious though, do you think it's good to have ANY EV build on
television, or do you think it's bad that it's a gimmicky builder making
it ugly and sponsored by a possibly bad company? Looking at the big
picture, is this public build a good thing for the EV community or not?
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
interesting points ken
regarding this horror being a collection of aftermarket parts lashed together
the main problem with full custom design vehicle on a one off production run is
not just about cash
to build a custom vehicle from first principles takes a huge amount of time ,
the project life often cannot be shortened by simply adding more manpower as
the primary member of the build team often has the vision of how the completed
prouct will look and function in his head and is unable to comunicate this
properly to an army of fabricators
this often results in jobs like cusom bike builds being done largely by one
hands on guy.
some bike builds take the builder 1000 hrs
perhaps this project was constrained by time scale rather than talent of the
builder ?
as i don't have sky i've never seen either of the shows you mention so i may be
talking complete rubbish here.
p.s. "there's no such thing as bad publicity"
reb
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It appears to be a conversion.
That's the only kind of work OCC seems to do. Buy everything off the
shelf, weld on some dohickies and call it a custom.
> It is well below the creative abilities of Paul Jr. OCC has totally
> sold out on this one.
Paul has very limited creative abilities to begin with as evidenced by
his lack of fabrication skills (compared with other "real" custom
chopper builders who do it all from scratch). With the exception of an
episode here and there, this show has been lacking on "creative
integrity" from the word go. Like "Monster Garage", the show is almost
always just an advertising vehicle for whatever sponsor the show has
week to week.
> It is not a fitting memorial to the fallen officers. It is obviously a
> publicity stunt by Whistler Investments.
Bingo. I'm sure ANY company could have had this slot (or an episode on
Monster Garage for that matter) if they wanted to pony up the $$.
Personally, I'd rather see a real custom chopper builder do a totally
custom EV cycle. I'd want to see a custom designed frame so that the
batteries and motor are mounted asthetically. I'd like to see complete
fabrication from stem to stern on a public EV motorcycle build like this
one.
I'm curious though, do you think it's good to have ANY EV build on
television, or do you think it's bad that it's a gimmicky builder making
it ugly and sponsored by a possibly bad company? Looking at the big
picture, is this public build a good thing for the EV community or not?
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2005-01-23 at 13:36 -0800, Ken Trough wrote:
> Personally, I'd rather see a real custom chopper builder do a totally
> custom EV cycle. I'd want to see a custom designed frame so that the
> batteries and motor are mounted asthetically. I'd like to see complete
> fabrication from stem to stern on a public EV motorcycle build like this
> one.
You mean like:
http://www.vogelbilt.com/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/392.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/415.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It appears to be a conversion.
>
> That's the only kind of work OCC seems to do. Buy everything off the
> shelf, weld on some dohickies and call it a custom.
I'm not sure you're watching the same show I am. I've seen these guys do a half
dozen choppers,
and every one of them was from scratch. Bend and weld raw stock for the frame.
Their tanks are
built up from sheet metal. Same with the fenders, handle bars, seats. I've seen
them design a
custom pattern for the wheels and then have another shop cut them out with a
CAD CAM system. The
only consistent purchasing they seem to do is for peripheral parts like fork
tubes, light bulbs
and some drive train parts (belts, hubs, gears.) What do you want them to do,
mine the bauxite and
smelt the aluminum before they have a custom engine machined up for them?
I'm not voicing any opinion about Whistler or the dedication to the officer,
but I've never seen
these guys do anything but build from scratch.
Now as to the pissing and moaning and fighting they like to do, that's imported
from Hollywood.
Dave Cover
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