EV Digest 4053
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Better Mileage Metric? Re: Some basic questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: people willing to buy EV's
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: people willing to buy EV's
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Hose for vacuum system
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Night Rider Electric Stiletto Chopper
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: nicad question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Interacter 12V Battery Charger
by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Flywheel clocking
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT re: EV taglines
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT re: EV taglines
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Night Rider Electric Stiletto Chopper
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The point of diminishing returns?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Comments interspersed.
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi David, Ryan and All,
> His metric isn't very good for so many
> reasons like engine size, eff, drag, speed, ect that
> anyone who cares about range would change.
Good point that hadn't been stated, doing things that would improve
gas mileage will improve range. EVs can do the gassers one better, no
need for cooling a huge radiator or hot exhaust pipe, so even better
aero is possible.
> Better would be range according to % of batt
> weight,
>
> 30% batt weight = 20-40 mile,
> 40% = 30-60 miles
> 50% = 45-100 miles
> with the lower mileage for non optimzed EV's,
> pickups and the upper for optimised, more aero EV's.
> -15% for AGM's in most cases vs golf cart batts
> except in heavily loaded, short range ones where they
> are about = though faster.
> Driving 20% slower gets you about 30-50% more
> range above 45 mph.
The percent battery weight is really saying the same thing as Bill
Dube's metric. Heavier car, less gas mileage, but more weight in
batteries. Of the 10 cars I've owned vehicle weight has been a good
predictor for city gas mileage.
Of course, the best way is look at real life data. Next is a
complicated simulation. Next would be tables like you presented. For
a simple, easily explained, adjustable to a wide range of cars
metric, it is tough to beat saying "gas mileage and 1000 lbs. batts =
1 gallon gas" is a good average kind of number to use.
> Thus from a cost, range, performance standpoint
> a light, aero, optimized EV is going to be a much
> better idea.
> Needless to say, YMMV!!!
> HTH's,
Amen to that! An 18 wheeler EV might have 75% weight in batteries and
hundreds of miles of range, but I shudder to think of the cost!
> > > David Dymaxion wrote:
> > > > I like Bill Dube's metric, take the car's original
> > > > gas mileage and figure that's about how many
> > > > miles about 1000 pounds
> > > > of lead acid batteries will take you. YMMV. :)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Exactly, we should take it one step at a time...
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Steve Marks
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 17:24
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Thanks Ivo.
I'm confident the information can be effectively represented. I just
need to know what information to display, how to gather it to the PC and
how it should appear to the user. The code I can do myself.
It would be nice to interface to Rudman's regs and get per-battery
information during race and recharge events. It would also be nice to
present a GUI for access to various Zilla options - especially since the
Ghiamonster will have three of these and anything I do on one would most
likely need to be propagated to the other two.
With a GUI at my disposal, there's a great deal of EV related
information I can choose to represent. The biggest unknown is what
information, how to gather it and how it should appear to the user.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ivo Jara G.
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
I fI'm right, you want to monitor all the car's vitals with a PC. That
is
straightforward, there are sending units virtually for everything in the
market, all will hook up to a serial or paralell port, regarding the
soft,
you can have it written, or look for it in shareware form,.
If you want proof that the soft exists, and is readily availiable check
out
the Intel active monitor, it will display gauges in your screen, and
measure: fan speed, processor temp, processor core voltage, ambient temp
inside the PC, voltage at the power source, and lots of other variables.
You can look at it at:
http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/s815ebm1/sb/CS-0066
10.h
tm
It's a great idea, plus it will look neat, good luck
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre
de Steve Marks
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 15:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Lee,
The central computer idea is also what I have planned for the
Ghiamonster though I'll probably run with Win3k for the OS. Companies
like http://www.travla.com and
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/c.ACCT127230/sc.8/category.15/.f make the
kind of hardware that should work in this environment. I had planned on
using one of these systems with a touch sensitive screen like
http://www.xenarc.com/product/700ts.html to display all the gauges and
diagnostic information relevant to an EV as well as providing an
interface to the controllers and whatever else.
I'd be very interested in any information you could give me on the
following:
o Gauge types (Motor Amps & Volts, Controller Amps & Volts, Battery
Amps & Volts - perhaps interfacing with Rudman Regs here, Tachometer,
etc with limits and warnings for values out of appropriate ranges) that
can be drawn.
o An appropriate graphical interface to access all this information as
well as controlling the Zilla controllers.
o A/D input hardware that can digitize all the relevant analog inputs.
...and whatever else seems relevant.
It seems like you might've given this area lots of thought and I'd love
to get your ideas on it.
Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Rod Hower wrote:
> I'm sure Rick is on top of this, but I hope there
> is somebody close by to monitor and work on any
> service issues of this vehicle. This is great EV PR
> as long as the vehicle doesn't have issues like
> imbalanced batteries or other issues that will affect
> the range.
This is worrisome to me, too. Virtually *all* limited-production and
prototype EVs have gotten sold with negligible after-sale support and
maintenance. When things go wrong (as they always do), the early
adopters can get disillusioned very quickly.
> Hopefully Lee's batt balancer is on this one.
We started putting it in one of Rick's earlier Tangos, but it then got
crowded out when he switched from Optimas to the larger Orbitals. The
current Tango has changed batteries again, and he's now trying out
Hawkers.
My dream is that we'll get a central Linux computer in the Tango, with a
wireless connection so we can see what's going on in it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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That's the spirit ˇ
Also we could install a forum, so everybody could post questions and the
guys who have built ev's can answer them.
Such as "I already tried it, and it doesn't work "
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de keith vansickle
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 20:03
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: people willing to buy EV's
--- "Ivo Jara G." wrote
> Ah Hell, let's do it !, I build websites for a
> living, and I'm good at it,
> so, let's get a domain, and start gathering info to
> post, such as plans,
> drawings, calculations etc.
>
> We could build a massive website with everything to
> help the ev
> builder/owner, and totally non profit (maybe a
> little advertising to cover
> costs :) )
> THIS IS A GOOD IDEA The organization of it may be a
problem though. There are so many ideas and
perspectives that go into building an EV that
collecting the data seems to take forever. I am
working on an ev tricycle and just trying to figure
out what basic platform to use is taking all my spare
time. a site that becomes a clearing house for all
the possibilities starting with simple claculating
formulae to determine what system
(motor/controller/batteries) in general terms will be
necessary to do what one wants to do. frequently a
new person to the list says something like
"I have a ___ mile commute on ____ mi of streets and
____mi of freeway" can i build an ev that can do it.
Others say thing like I want 40 mi range and need to
be able to do 70MPH etc so if we could have
something to get things startd for them.
just my $.02
sort of like the computational formulae on thw 4qd
site would be a good thing to include> It has taken me
more than a year to gather all the
> info to be able to start
> my project, it would have been nice to have had a
> website with (how to build
> an ev), I have to thank Mike Chancey and others for
> their websites, those
> were very informative, but what I mean is one with
> everything, bikes trikes
> recumbent, cars trucks etc, the info could be
> supplied by the hundreds of
> independent builders all around the world (successes
> and failures) because
> failures teach a lot also.
>
> Well, how's that ????
>
> Ivo.
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
> de David Dymaxion
> Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 14:31
> Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Asunto: RE: people willing to buy EV's
>
> Some twists on the idea: Some kitplane builders have
> done group
> builds. One guy builds one part or structure 6
> times, and then they
> lottery who gets first choice of them, who gets 2nd,
> etc.
>
> This idea was spawned from "Tabletop Machining by
> Joe Martin" (a
> great book on machining, BTW). Do a linux-like thing
> where dispersed
> builders each build several copies of parts, and
> send it to a central
> place for assembly.
>
> If you build a neat part, you might consider making
> several copies
> and offering them for sale (through an ev parts
> seller or directly).
> Or, if you want to be altruistic and help a small
> business, give the
> plans to ev parts fabricators and sellers.
>
> This idea may be most easily implemented: Sharing
> plans. You could
> draw up a part in emachineshop or a cad program, and
> post it on a web
> page.
>
> Side note: I drew up plans to do an adapter in
> emachineshop. In
> quantities of 1, it was much more expensive than
> buying an adapter
> from an ev parts supplier like ElectroAuto! The
> price per unit
> droppped rapidly with larger numbers.
>
> --- "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You mean like this but with ev's ?
> >
> > We all work on someone's ev until it's our turn to
> geto one ?
> >
> > mmmm... We would first have to agree on a standard
> ev design which
> > would
> > leave everyone happy, then start working, looks
> complicated, but
> > not
> > impossible.
> >
> > Good idea.
> >
> > Ivo Jara G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
This thread is admittedly pretty esoteric. We are, however, talking about a
specific EV being built, so I'll give this one more whack.
Paul Compton wrote:
> > If you try to balance a garden rake vertically on your
> fingertip, it's
> > easier when the rake head is on top. That means a high center of
> > gravity is *more stable*.
>
> Think about this for a second. A top heavy object is always
> less stable than
> a bottom heavy object. In your example, it's easier to
> balance because with
> a top heavy object the CofG has more lateral movement. This
> gives more
> feedback, which makes it easier to balance; for the person doing the
> balancing.
>
> > OTOH, you need to move the position of your
> > finger farther on each correction to maintain balance.
> Translated to
> > a motorcycle, this makes it feel kind of darty, and since you're
> > leaned over while this is going on, these motions tend to lift the
> > wheel off the pavement. Not a good solution in practice.
>
> Here you seem to be saying that a high CofG is a bad thing?
OK, I could have been a little more clear. This demonstrates how critically
important it is to be specific in our definitions. We've all been a little
lax. We're talking about a two-wheel vehicle, which is inherently
*unstable*. That is, if you leave it alone, it falls over. So when we stay
"stability" we actually mean "the ease with which active stability control
can be achieved".
Back to the garden rake. Actually, let's use a different tool, one that
demonstrates the effect more clearly (shorter, more weight concentration).
Let's use a hammer. With the head on top, balancing it on your finger can
be done fairly easily. You can even be a little sloppy, taking your time
with corrections, overshooting, and still keep it vertical. Turn it over
and it's much more challenging. Your corrections must be much more rapid
and extremely precise. Maintaining stability has become more difficult. A
top heavy object is less stable only if it is *at rest*. A motorcycle is
not - it requires motion to remain upright.
This also demonstrates one of the first tradeoffs in designing a two wheel
vehicle. Using the contact patches to keep it vertical means they have to
move around a lot if the cg is high, which is not acceptable on a road
vehicle. There is some height that is high enough for ease of balance, but
low enough that the corrections are manageable. And of course that optimum
depends on lots of other things like rake, trail, wheelbase, total weight,
speed, etc. We must think in terms of tradeoffs, not maximizing any
characteristic.
> > The other thing to consider is that leaning into a turn or making
> > corrections in a turn requires you to roll (as in pitch/roll/yaw).
> > It's a rotation that wants to be centered on the cg and is
> made much
> > easier with a low polar moment. Get your cg too low and the polar
> > moment increases too much because the rider didn't move. And the
> > whole bike/rider combination has to move in a big arc
> around the cg.
> > It makes the bike feel ponderous and sluggish, as if everything was
> > pivoting around the contact patches.
>
> With a bike at rest and off it's stands, try leaning it over;
> It rolled
> around its contact patches. Whilst the mass 'wants' to roll
> around it's roll
> CofG the forces to generate that roll come from the contact
> patches. When
> riding those contact patches can be deflected sideways and
> the roll axis
> will be closer to the roll CofG. The height of the roll axis
> is therefore
> dependent on the rate of roll, but is close to the contact patches.
Which demonstrates yet another complication to all this armchair theorizing.
With a two wheel vehicle, you can't say a certain characteristic will cause
X. As you show above, it can do X just tootling around town and Y when you
have to escape some kamikaze's cross-hairs. And trust me, you can get a
roll motion centered a good deal away from the contact patches if you're in
the mood.
> >>"My long-standing assertion that a high CG can result in
> wheels coming
> >>off the ground during rapid direction changes has produced
> some quite
> >>agitated dissent."
>
> > Indeed, and with good reason. I side with the dissenters.
>
> Do you never watch bike racing? It's very common to see one
> or both wheels
> come off the ground in a chicane. Twist And Go magazine took
> a Yamaha T-Max
> superscooter (500cc twin 44bhp) to the race school at Rockingham
> International Raceway. The T-Max proved itself more than a
> match for any of
> the superbikes there around the tight infield race-school course.
> Occasionally an R1 or CBR600 would get past on the longest
> straight, but the
> superior braking performance would get it into turn one first and its
> superior turning ability would stretch that advantage
> slightly through the
> rest of the course.
We have several points of view offering contradicting advice, all based on
practical experience. I think everyone is doing their best to offer good
advice, but we still can't agree. Maybe there's a unifying concept that
brings it all together: my offhand comment that lowering cg *and* reducing
polar moment together is what makes it work.
We have evidence that taking a standard motorcycle and doing *nothing* but
lowering the cg makes it handle worse. Makes sense, because doing so puts
more distance between the hardware cg and the rider, *increasing* the polar
moment around the roll axis (to the degree that the rider's weight can be
included with the vehicle's).
We also have evidence that a FF can be wickedly fast in turns. The reason
offered is the lower cg, but almost all FFs I've seen also have a lower
polar moment relative to a standard motorcycle. To my mind, a lower cg
*and* polar moment together, assuming no other changes, might make the
vehicle too twitchy - all too willing to execute roll motions. But FFs also
tend to have longer wheelbases than standard motorcycles, which slows these
tendencies down. I'll bet the rake and trail settings for a FF are
different as well. I'm thinking it's the combination of effects. Not just
low cg.
> > For example, the author we're reviewing here boldly dared
> any employee
> > of
> > a
> > motorcycle manufacturer to rebut what he had proposed. One
> did, and
> > rather
> > effectively. To which the author responded, "Which I feel it's
> > unnecessary
> > to reply to."
>
> I have some issues with Royce's descriptions, but not his basic
> understanding and Arnold Wagner's response has it's own
> problems. Motor
> vehicle suspension is usually critically damped, if not stiffer, so
> unloading the suspension wouldn't launch the vehicle.
Oh. You're right, I missed that the first time. Damping has nothing to do
with a high side. The suspension is not what launches you, it's the fact
that you're sliding sideways and suddenly regaining traction, sending the cg
over the contact patches. Again, a low cg and low polar moment would seem
to make this even more dicey for a FF, but the long wheelbase counteracts
the effect.
What Lawrence should do is highly dependent on what his goals are. (Isn't
it always? ;^) If he wants to further the research into the effects of a
low cg on two wheel vehicle dynamics, by all means build a FFEV with the
batteries as low as possible. But understand that the resulting vehicle
might be a good example of what doesn't work.
More likely, this is to be a daily driver. In that case, I would try very
hard to match the cg height, polar moment, wheelbase and F/R weight
distribution of typical ICE FFs. That way all of the collected knowledge
from the FF crowd will have genuine application to the project. There will
be much less likelihood of any surprises. The more you deviate from an ICE
FF, the more risk you take.
Also keep in mind that some disadvantages of FFs have not been discussed.
The very low frontal area and relative ease of creating a very aero package
comes at the expense of not having your head high in traffic. You can't see
or be seen as well. What I find most unsettling is that with an FF you are
definitely "in" the vehicle, not on it. In a frontal collision you are, and
will remain, *with* the vehicle. I for one will not chose to be tangled up
in hardware.
Most riders don't think about crashes except as rare and painful experiences
to avoid. They think that once you're in one, your fate is sealed. Not so.
Racers see crashes as a fairly "normal" occurrence, and are aware that you
can have a surprising amount of control over what happens during one. Like
getting yourself away from it, by clearing the bike before impact. You
can't do that on a FF. You're along for the ride (and the impact), whether
you like it or not. (Oof. It hurts just to think about it.)
OK, I know most of you think I'm nuts at this point. I also know that Mike
Reish knows exactly what I'm talking about (poke, poke ;^).
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly, general stuff, on (for example) == which motors work, and where to
get them =
== how to rewind and convert a motor==
== What to do to an automotive starter
to make t work==
== What to expect from a 12 V DC
system, and a 24 and a 48, etc.
Well, I have seen all this info on the web, but after 100s of hours surfing,
what I mean is to collect it in one website, something like Evcentral.org,
and save people time, also (for example) there are lots of websties that say
"I did this", but they don't really say how, and you have to start
magnifying pictures, and triying to figure out how the H... he did it.
Just a thought.
ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Lee Hart
Enviado el: sábado, 22 de enero de 2005 15:38
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: people willing to buy EV's
Ivo Jara G. wrote:
>> Ah Hell, let's do it! ... Let's get a domain, and start gathering
>> info to post, such as plans, drawings, calculations etc.
keith vansickle wrote:
> THIS IS A GOOD IDEA
> The organization of it may be a problem though. There are so many
> ideas and perspectives that go into building an EV that collecting
> the data seems to take forever.
I agree; it's a great idea. It will take a lot of work, though.
The BIG problem is that as we all sit here at our computers reading and
looking at the pretty pictures, we aren't really *doing* anything!
Gathering information and learning is great. But we need some sort of
"magic spark" to leap out of the screen and zap the reader into turning
off the computer and going out into the garage to actually BUILD
something!
I think part of the problem is that most websites (and TV programs for
that matter) simply document what someone else did. "This is what I
did..." We watch it passively. No input or response or action is
expected from the viewer -- so none is given.
"How To..." books are a lot more likely to be structured to encourage
you to actually *do* something. Step-by-step instructions, with
illustrations, lots of reference data and charts, and none of the
chattiness or storytelling. "This is what YOU do..."
Websites or videos could (and occasionally are) structured like this;
but it's pretty rare. I think websites offer some *real* opportunities
to do "how to" instructions very well. Pictures don't need to be static
like a book; they can include video snips ("move it like this..."). The
reference data can have links (here is a battery chart; click on one for
more data on it).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Richard, Bruce, Evan thanks for the helpful feedback. I will go down the
hydraulic/plastic shop and see what I can get.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: January 24, 2005 7:20 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Hose for vacuum system
I just tested my vacuum system yesterday it works great, but the vacuum pump
cycles too long. I am pretty sure the vacuum pump is having to work harder,
because I am using heater hose to connect from the pump (in the back of the
car) up to the brake booster and it collapses a little bit. Can anyone
suggest a more rigid hose that will not collapse? Maybe a hose that I can
heat bend to form it around corners?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just finished my latest electric bike project built for SkooterCommuter.
It's at http://www.skootercommuter.com
The bike is decked out with red neon lighting hidden in the chain guard,
Maltese Cross tail and brake lights, turn signals, headlight, Maltese Cross
mirrors, and an air horn. Its powered by a 36-volt 12 Ah NiMH battery that
can be paired up with another battery for longer range. A high-speed 900
watt Heinzmann hub motor fit perfectly between the the front forks.
The turn signal lights, horn and turn signal switches came from a Boreem
scooter. There is a 12 volt relay for the lights and flashers for the turn
signals. The 12-volt system is driven by a dc/dc converter.
Although its a conversion it required quite of bit of fabrication and wiring
to get it up and running. Last year I bought a Miller 1500 Mig welder,
tubing bender and drill press. The Stiletto didn't come with a sissy bar so
I decided to make one from scratch and build a bracket for the taillight and
quick release brackets so the batteries can be swapped out quickly.
It was a blast to build and fun to ride. In short rides taken with the bike
the cruising speed is 25 mph and top speed 30 mph. It's 30 degrees outside
so I haven't been able to do any range testing yet.
The next project undergoing conversion is a Schwinn Spoiler. This will be a
cartoon bike and everything will be out of proportion and audacious. And
another bike presently in the works will be completed later in the spring.
This one will have a rear hub motor and custom built frame.
All these bikes are 30 mph and less bikes which still have pedal power in
addition to power assist.
Chip Gribben
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, but their not buddy pairs, two complete strings in parallel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: nicad question
> You better tell Solectria not to parallel them because those early
> (wet) NiCad Forces that are still running after 10 years that way. So
> someone hurry and tell them that they did it wrong ;-)
>
> 2 40Ah strings in parallel. Still running at UMass last I heard, that
> was 2003 but they were 1993(ish) cars.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> > If there is a reason to not charge "flooded" NiCads in parallel,
> > please let
> > me know.
> >
> > The reason that cylindrical NiCads can't be recharged in parallel does
> > not
> > apply to flooded cells because the behave differently at end of charge.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: nicad question
> >
> >
> >> << Does anyone know if there are any problems with buddy pairing
> >> flooded
> > nicads
> >> like the bb600? >>
> >>
> >> You don't want to charge nicads in parallel, but supposedly you can
> > discharge
> >> them that way.
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Don Cameron"
JCT (Jean-Claude?) thanks for the feedback - do have an EV on the road - any
web pictures?
thanks
Don
===============
Hi Don,
No, not on the road, in the snow!
You can see my E-Skidoo lifting its E-Ski at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/toujc/eSkidoo/eskidoo.html
I have also converted a Sears garden tractor to e-power (so last
summer, I e-mowed :-)
But no pict yet.
Looking also to convert a car, or maybe buy a used one, but I am
quite far from any ev market here up in NW Qc... ggggrrrrrr
JCT (yes Jean-Claude...)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use an epoxy resin, easy to work with, and it will stick like a welding.
(remeber you need the resin and the accelerator) otherwise they don't dry
up.
Regarding the optical, take the precaution to leave an opening for cleaning
the optical elements without dissasembling, you could cover the openings
with bronze or plastic plugs.
Good luck.
Also, take a look at the sensors in automobiles, those are in the front
engine pulley, with all the grease and impurities associated with the ICE,
and they work fine in the grese, dirt, etc, I think those are not optical,
but do not know for sure. It's worth to take a more detailed look at them.
Good luck.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de brian baumel
Enviado el: domingo, 23 de enero de 2005 22:55
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Flywheel clocking
does anyone have opinions on using either an optical
or magnetic sensor for clocking a flywheel? I have an
optical setup almost complete but am having second
thoughts. the bell housing is pretty much sealed. am I
over looking something that may cause a problem in the
future? does anyone have a suggestion of the best
adhesive to attach the mirror or magnet to the fly
wheel? I'm currently think of using JBweld.....
Thanks,
BCB
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
> "Never doubt what a small group of thoughtless, selfish citizens
> can do to the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> realy messed thing up!"
Thanks, Steve, for my laugh of the day! Interestingly enough, it is just
as true as my tagline!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve and all;
There is an easier way to find fellow EV's in your
area.
The Electric Automotive association is already in
place.
http://www.eaaev.org/
They have links to Chapters across the country.
They have monthly meetings and gather for events. I
don't know of other chapters, But the Phoenix Chapter
in Arizona allowed me to join a meeting to see what it
is about, without the intial expense of joining. I
even got to meet Robert Q Riley himself designer of
the Trimagnum, TriMutter, Electric Ubra Car. He was a
guest speaker at the meeting I attended. I even
discovered a fellow co-worker at the meeting and we
discuss his ev occasionally. My big problem is work
schedule does not allow me to attend the meetings.
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart"
>
> Your Post got me thinking about where we are , and
> how on a time line
> looking at things up close , gives a different
> picture than standing back. I
> was thinking about how you start a camp fire , a
> little like what we are
> doing . A bunch of big logs (car makers ) won't be
> much good at first ,
> small pieces of wood , bark , and sticks (nev's ev
> bikes ect) piled around a
> log or two ( conversion's) . I think one of our
> short coming is that we are
> so far apart . When there is only one person , in a
> town doing something ,
> like EV;s its easy to call him a nut .. people are
> not quite so quick to
> join a group of one. I'm not sure but from what I
> read there are a lot of EV
> people around John Wayland's neck of the woods. How
> did this happen? If we
> were looking at a time line where we start with one
> and watch it grow my
> guess would be that after two things start to pick
> up speed. I know right
> now most on the list with ev's would say , " I'm the
> only EV in town or for
> miles " .
>
> > >> But we need some sort of "magic spark" to leap
> out of the screen
> > >> and zap the reader into turning off the
> computer and going out
> > >> into the garage to actually BUILD something!
> >
> And maybe doing it with other people , The EV clubs
> are a good idea , but
> you have to have more that one to start with , which
> I;m pretty sure that
> most of us EV'er just can't fine another EV'er in
> our home town.
>
> >
> > I think this same spirit would work for building
> EVs. You just need to
> > get a critical mass of people to show up regularly
> in someone's garage,
> > and have some sort of club project to work on.
>
> Yes maybe an ad in the local paper , could have a
> web address at the end .
> www.evalbum.com . Now what if we all did it at once.
> ?
>
>
> > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the
> only thing that ever
> > has!"
>
> Sometimes when I'm talking to people and they say ,
> everything thing is ok
> now , we'll deal with "the problem " later . but
> lets look at where we are
> right now as being in a car and running out of oil
> as a brick wall . We can
> argue how far away the wall is , and how much time
> it will take to stop .
> But right now we are still accelerating , we have
> not taken are foot off the
> gas , not even tested the brakes , and the driver
> says he has something in
> the trunk call a fool cell that will stop the car on
> a dime. . Well this
> is what drives me to do what most would say is a
> "poor business plan " . I
> know that I must make my Ev business make money for
> it to grow , so I can
> make better EV's with better parts for more people .
> At some point I'll need
> to let go of one rope and grab another , My lawn
> business has been
> supporting my EV effort , after 20 years it runs
> like a clock , . funny how
> one thread can run through so many parts of life ,
> give up something you
> know and can count on for something new , different
> ,. Like that bird in
> the cage you were talking about. I hope there are
> lurkers out there thinking
> about doing a conversion , and after reading a post
> do it , but how about
> all you EV's that are thinking of starting there own
> shop, business , club
> or rally. Are you not is the same place as when you
> where thinking about
> doing your first conversion ? do you wish you had
> waited?
>
>
>
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
>
> -- Margaret Mead
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh. You're right, I missed that the first time. Damping has nothing to do
with a high side. The suspension is not what launches you, it's the fact
that you're sliding sideways and suddenly regaining traction, sending the cg
over the contact patches. Again, a low cg and low polar moment would seem
to make this even more dicey for a FF, but the long wheelbase counteracts
the effect.
FFs don't have to have a long wheelbase. The production prototype
Voyagers have a WB of 63.5 inches. A quick scan of Honda, Yamaha, and
Suzuki touring bikes showed me a range of WBs of about 58" to 67" so
the Voyager is right in line with other tourers. According to Royce
and the owners of the other 6 Voyagers, no one's ever managed to
high-side one.
Also keep in mind that some disadvantages of FFs have not been discussed.
The very low frontal area and relative ease of creating a very aero package
comes at the expense of not having your head high in traffic. You can't see
or be seen as well. What I find most unsettling is that with an FF you are
definitely "in" the vehicle, not on it. In a frontal collision you are, and
will remain, *with* the vehicle. I for one will not chose to be tangled up
in hardware.
Take a look at http://www.hightech.clara.net/pearly.htm at the bottom
of the page to see what can happen when a well-made FF gets clobbered
by a car. Royce walked away from that with a bruised thumb, as I
remember. Note that the vehicle was rebuilt as well and is still on
the road, now wearing yellow. It is Royce's daily driver.
Most riders don't think about crashes except as rare and painful experiences
to avoid. They think that once you're in one, your fate is sealed. Not so.
Racers see crashes as a fairly "normal" occurrence, and are aware that you
can have a surprising amount of control over what happens during one. Like
getting yourself away from it, by clearing the bike before impact. You
can't do that on a FF. You're along for the ride (and the impact), whether
you like it or not. (Oof. It hurts just to think about it.)
You might wish to drop a line to Paul Blezard on the FF list about
that. He's a motorcycle journalist who's crashed dozens of machines
over the years including many of the FFs out there. He's got a good,
real-world perspective on survival of two-wheeler wrecks.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But, if mine bother people, I can take mine out.
Don't you dare. I think Steve said it well when he said he enjoyed your
inspirational taglines and was shocked when the "bells" stopped ringing. I
was too but your re-acquainting us all with BFs "Dead and rotten" really hit
me hard with its appropriateness. Having gone thru 2 major surgeries in the
last 5 years and just clicking off another middle aged b-day (complete with
the dwelling about own mortality thing, feeling sorry for myself, etc)
rotten has really got me going. Besides getting me back interested in
pursuing my EV endeavors I recently passed that quote on to an 85 year old
friend and business associate of mine. He had never heard it before!! I have
been working on getting him to sit down with me and letting me record his
life experiances for posterity with little success until now. He has had a
facinating and productive life including being a navigator on the cargo
planes flying into China pre WWII (think "God is my CoPilot") and I have
long felt he had an important legacy to leave. Over lunch Sat he brought up
the idea and told me he was ready to get to it. And to really bring this
home Lee, he told me he wanted to get started (within the next 3-4 months)
building him the EV pickup conversion that I have been after him for years
to do. He started mirroring back to me the smog and mileage etc pro EV
arguments I have been pounding him with. So Lee just remember "ripples in
the pond". And it was YOUR pebble. Oh, and I wish you could get that random
tagline generator working again. If someone made a random tagline plug-in
for OE, would probably sell well.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
chip
you are without a doubt an excellent fabricator and custom builder
with luck someone will buy you some good taste in vehicles for your birthday :)
reb
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just finished my latest electric bike project built for SkooterCommuter.
It's at http://www.skootercommuter.com
The bike is decked out with red neon lighting hidden in the chain guard,
Maltese Cross tail and brake lights, turn signals, headlight, Maltese Cross
mirrors, and an air horn. Its powered by a 36-volt 12 Ah NiMH battery that
can be paired up with another battery for longer range. A high-speed 900
watt Heinzmann hub motor fit perfectly between the the front forks.
The turn signal lights, horn and turn signal switches came from a Boreem
scooter. There is a 12 volt relay for the lights and flashers for the turn
signals. The 12-volt system is driven by a dc/dc converter.
Although its a conversion it required quite of bit of fabrication and wiring
to get it up and running. Last year I bought a Miller 1500 Mig welder,
tubing bender and drill press. The Stiletto didn't come with a sissy bar so
I decided to make one from scratch and build a bracket for the taillight and
quick release brackets so the batteries can be swapped out quickly.
It was a blast to build and fun to ride. In short rides taken with the bike
the cruising speed is 25 mph and top speed 30 mph. It's 30 degrees outside
so I haven't been able to do any range testing yet.
The next project undergoing conversion is a Schwinn Spoiler. This will be a
cartoon bike and everything will be out of proportion and audacious. And
another bike presently in the works will be completed later in the spring.
This one will have a rear hub motor and custom built frame.
All these bikes are 30 mph and less bikes which still have pedal power in
addition to power assist.
Chip Gribben
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Ryan Stotts wrote:
On page 190 in the book "The New Electric Vechicles" (1996),
it says:
"The physics of electricity say that, when the current
(amps) doubles, the losses will be four times as great."
That's true -- but only if you don't change anything except the current.
Power = I^2 x R.
But as a practical matter, you *do* change lots of things when you
change the voltage. For example, suppose you have (say) 24 12v
...
See the pattern? It doesn't make any difference how you wire the
batteries. Series gives the most voltage but the least current. Parallel
reduces the voltage but increases the current.
That means the loses in the battery and wiring will be the same
in electrical terms. But the battery and wiring is not whole
picture yet. Efficiency of the controller at different voltages
differs too, so overall EV efficiency
*usually* is better for high voltage low current setups
even though batery/wiring losses as you pointed out
are the same. This is due to a losses in semiconductors which
are not linear and not as simple as I^2*R thing. R in general depends on
everything, mainly temperature, which will depend on how you
drive.
Victor
So, you pick your number of batteries based on what type you want to
use, and what fits (space, weight). The "optimal" way to wire them then
depends on the motor and controller you pick.
With that in mind, when converting a car using either an
Advanced DC 8" or 9" motor, and whichever Zilla is needed,
what would be the ideal or optimal pack voltage when using
either Orbitals or Optimas? How to decide on 144, 192, or
216v or any other number when space permits? Is there at
some pack voltage a point when adding more batteries to the
system isn't the same as it was up to that point?
This is a complex question.
By saying "Advanced DC", you are generally restricting yourself to a
series motor. Moreover, their 8" and 9" motors only come wound one way
-- you don't have a selection of voltages. So, choosing your motor
"nails down" the current-torque and voltage-speed relationships.
Series motors don't have a fixed voltage or current rating. They
basically transform whatever amount of power you put in (watts) into
mechanical power out (horsepower). You can get (almost) any horsepower
at any voltage -- as long as you're willing to let the rpm and current
go where they need to be to get that power. And, there is a time factor;
the more power you want, the shorter the time you can get it before the
motor overheats.
The controller is a further complication. It steps the battery voltage
down, but the current up. So you can always wire the batteries for a
higher pack voltage, and then knock it down to what the motor needs with
the controller. But if you pick too low a pack voltage, the controller
can't boost it if needed (for example, to get high horsepower at high
rpm).
The end result is that there is no optimal pack voltage. Higher voltages
tend to require more expensive controllers and allow higher motor rpm.
Lower voltages allow cheaper controllers, and allow high torque at low
motor rpm.
But if you buy a *big* controller that can convert high voltage to high
current, and have a transmission so you can adjust motor speed, either
approach will produce about the same end results.
--- End Message ---
