EV Digest 4060
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) help
by "Dennis D. Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage,
than motor voltage?)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fuse placement
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Zilla /palm
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) homen made contactor
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: ETEK problem found.
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Oh no. My ETEK ate a brush?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: ETEK problem found.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla /palm
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1999 electro truck
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ETEK problem found.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) (no subject)
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage, than
motor voltage?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Zilla /palm
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
help
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Markus L wrote:
On these controllers battery amps are not equal to motor amps.
To me this can only be if the controller is not at a 100%
duty cycle and is due capacitors that buffer battery current
during the off cycle. So the battery may see a constant
current and the motor sees a higher pulse current. The
mean value of current over time (RMS?) should be the same, right?
Both the battery and motor see pulsed current. The average motor current
is usually higher than the average battery current, unless you are at
'wide open throttle' in which case the two are equal.
However the total power does stay the same for both: the batteries are
at a high(er) voltage and lower current while the motor is at a low(er)
voltage and higher current. Voltage x current = power.
3. the motor can be run from a higher voltage battery pack than
the motor rated voltage?
Many wound motors can be run well beyond their rated voltage, at least
for short lengths of time. How far they can be pushed all depends on the
particular motor and its windings. This is true whether an electronic
controller or a big contactor is used.
The last question I am most interested. I own an elec-trak tractor
and it usually works with 36V with a compound wound 1.2HP motor.
If I up the voltage to 48V for the field...
I think a couple of people out there have run the ET drive motors at 48
volts. The larger ETs (E20, C185, etc) use field weakening to get the
top speeds, so you'd actually need to control your field to bring it
down well below 36 volts for the same top speeds. Also note that in
normal operation the drive motor will reach 10-12 (or 15?) HP peaks.
HOWEVER: the ETs use permanent magnet motors on the mowing deck. This
type of motor does not take kindly to higher voltages. So if you change
to 8 volt batteries to get 48 volts, you'd then have to have an
additional controller for the mower deck.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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James Massey wrote:
> If you *do not* attach pack (+) to pack (-), and you remove a fuse
> from the middle of a string, then you will have a maximum voltage
> between any two points in the pack of half pack voltage. This makes
> it safer to work on, mostly by halving the possible places you can
> accidentally touch to get shocked.
This is true if there is *nothing* connected between pack+ and pack-.
But (for example) I have a little switching power supply across my pack
to provide power for the E-meter. It only draws a few ma, but...
One time I wanted to do some work on my battery box. I pulled the fuse
(from the middle of the string on that battery box). It was just a quick
job, so I didn't bother to unplug the batteries at the front control
box, or remove the front battery box fuse. I knew the main contactors
were off, so there was nothing connected.
Hah! I got bit when I went to put the fuse back! Full pack voltage
(132vdc in my case). Why? When I removed the fuse, the DC/DC's input
filter capacitor was already charged, so there was no voltage across the
open fuseholder. But as the capacitor discharged and the DC/DC went off,
the voltage slowly rose across the open fuseholder. When the capacitor
fully discharged, it was essentially a short from pack+ to pack-. That
put full pack voltage across the only "open" in that circuit; the fuse I
had removed.
Moral: *Always* disconnect your safety switches and fuses, even if you
don't think you need to!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I thought folks reported NiZn couldn't pull much current without
overheating. Are you sure you can get zilla levels of current from
them?
The EV1 and Tzero could do what you want on ~1300 lbs of lead acid
batteries.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> BTT, with Evertroll NiZn batteries in a Triumph GT6, I could
> have a 2,500 pound conversion that would accelerate in that
> 7-8 second 0-60 range I mentioned, pull 15s in the 1/4,
> consume < 190 wh/mile at 60 MPH speeds, go over 100 miles
> per charge highway, and top 130. For about a $15k conversion
> + restoration cost. If I could find an 'affordable'(Less
> than $6k for a pack) battery that could give me 100 miles
> range without having a pack weight in excess of 1,000
> pounds, I'd gladly sacrifice performance as long as it
> didn't get slower than about an 11 second 0-60 time,
> although I'd be glad to have more performance than that by
> far.
> ...
=====
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I am trying to change some setting on my Zilla and have a palm , . I'm at
the last part where I've picked a new number , got it in and it says "enter
amps 250 " but I can't find enter anywhere , looked on keybord , tried all
the othere bottens , hitting most just puts me back to the begining , . I
tryed other setting and always get to the same point , where it say enter
xxx then the number I put in ,
STeve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
Certainly those are not "average" figures, in fact 0-60 in 9-10 seconds is
still pretty fast, if you count in your average calculation all the
econocars, and the bulgemobiles, in fact certain 4 door 4 cylinder sedans
clock 0-60 in days :)
6 to 7 seconds is a 5.0 mustang, and not stock. (and mustangs are fast)
ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Seth Allen
Enviado el: jueves, 27 de enero de 2005 10:14
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
Average performance is not 7-8 seconds 0-60. Or 130+ top speed. I keep
hearing crazy "average" numbers. Front wheel drive sports cars have to
work hard to get into the 7 second 0-60 range. That's about all my
turbo GTI would do while harming the clutch. And I think it would do
130, but only just. Average is probably more like 11 seconds 0-60.
The first GTI I had was a 10+ second 0-60 car and they called it a
"pocket rocket" in its day.
Seth
for a reality check:
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
On Jan 27, 2005, at 12:47 AM, John Westlund wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>>> I also don't want to mount, wire, and
>>> maintain ~9,000 batteries or how ever many. ;) 25,
>> 12 volts
>>> is already to many. But I can deal with that.
>>>
>> There are 12V NiZn ones, 6V NiCd ones.
>>>
>>> Regards
>
> I thought Evercel was no longer offering?
>
> I'd LOVE to be able to get ahold of the Evertrolls used in
> Pullen's Accord. I could have above average performance(0-60
> ~ 7-8 seconds, 130+ mph top speed) AND 100+ miles highway
> range for an affordable price(~ $10k conversion cost).
>
> I currently do not know of any NiZn batteries that are going
> for < $600/kWh. That is by far more expensive than Optimas
> or Exides. The Evertroll NiZn that were going for $250 for a
> nearly 1 kWh battery last year would have been a $5k pack
> for me that would give over 100 miles range and supply about
> 160 battery horsepower for frequent use. Or if I spend about
> $6k for the smaller NiZn batteries that used to be available
> to get a high nominal voltage, like 300+ volts, I'd have
> even more power on tap with the same good range.
>
> Not to mention the operating cost would still be lower than
> a gas car with battery cost factored in.
>
> So please tell me, where can I get the said batteries you
> mention? And if I can, what are the caveats? Have they
> suffered in terms of quality due to changes in production
> method? I'd love nothing more than to use them for the
> conversion I'm doing.
>
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does any one have suggestions on where I could get
affordable contacts to make my own contactor relay? I
have a few solenoids laying around and $50+ seems a
little much for something I should be able to make
myself easy enough .....
BCB
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--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> BTT, with Evertroll NiZn batteries in a Triumph GT6, I could
> have a 2,500 pound conversion that would accelerate in that
> 7-8 second 0-60 range I mentioned, pull 15s in the 1/4,
> consume < 190 wh/mile at 60 MPH speeds, go over 100 miles per
> charge highway, and top 130.
Quit worrying about not being able to find Evercel NiZn because they
wouldn't give you anywhere near the performance you are hoping for. The
voltage sag is too great at high discharge rates and reduces the
available power *significantly* compared to good AGMs of similar nominal
voltage.
I think you mentioned expecting something like 160Hp, but the real world
data for Sheer's Honda with a similar voltage NiZn pack was more like
80HP. A Z1k might give you better off-the-line performance than Sheer's
AC drive setup, but 15s in the 1/4 and 130MPH top end are unlikely.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
There are Temp. Sending units very cheap and precise, used to monitor
processor core temperature in PC's, I recently installed one in a customer's
PC, it cost about US$20, and it included a digital display, it goes from 0
to 999 degrees celsius or farenheti. It's a wire you fix to the metal you
want to monitor.
ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de richard ball
Enviado el: viernes, 28 de enero de 2005 6:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: ETEK problem found.
thanks for that lawrence
sorry for your disaster
would it be worth monitoring the motor temperature ?
any suggestions how best to do this ?
regards
reb
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It appears that the windings terminate at the top of the rotor and are
connected to the other side with one inch connectors to the other side. It
might be possible that with the hill climbing I heated up the motor enough
to melt the connectors off the rotor. I lost 5 found 2 in the motor. It
seems they balance the motor by grinding parts of the rotor connectors or
the connectors ground some of the rotor away. It's in limited areas so it
looks like it was done on purpose. It seems there are 128 of these
connectors around the outside of the rotor. I can only guess I heated the
motor too much. Seems my gear ratio is too high even though I didn't exceed
the continous amp limit & had good power above 25mph on the hills. I still
have a fried motor. Wonder if I can solder them back on? The motor was hot
to the touch. Lawrence Rhodes.........Seems I am blowing things up so you
guys don't have to. Watch your ETEK heating!
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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I never cranked the throttle but what ever happened it was gradual except
four com wires where the brushes contact are eroded. 5 top clips on the
rotor came off 4 in one place and 1 90° away. I don't know if they are
put back on the motor will still function. Certainly for use in San
Francisco the gearing will have to be changed. Can these motors be
repaired or are they throw away motors? LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Oh no. My ETEK ate a brush?
Hi Lawrence and All,
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Did the first serious hill climbing going over Twin
Peaks in San Francisco
today. The Lectra seemed to perform well. Went up
the controller eating
hill then to Forest hill station and
back up Pacheco and then disaster. It sounded like
a brush being eaten by
the motor. Stilted vibration running then nothing
just a scrap sound on
every revolution while pushing the beast. I guess
16 to 54 might be a
little high for hill climbing in San Francisco.
This is the same thing that mine did which ate the
commutator, distroying it!
Maybe it was only 1 and you can grind the copper
snot off with a dremel and sand the brushes back even
then use taller gearing.
Don't move it until you remove the brush holder to
prevent more brush damage. It's easy with just 3 small
bolts, metric though.
Good luck, I hope I'm wrong,
jerry dycus
Gotta see what's wrong.
The motor only has maybe 10 hours of use. What are
my options. No
warranty. Right? Rats........I kept the amps down.
Only one 200 amp hill
for 10 seconds. Everything after that was kept to
150 or less. Mostly
less. Groan.........The Lectra with me on it weighs
700 pounds......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It appears that the windings terminate at the top of the
> rotor and are connected to the other side with one inch
> connectors to the other side.
Same construction as the LEM-130... we also overheated it and unsoldered
a bunch of the armature jumpers.
> It seems they balance the motor by grinding parts of the
> rotor connectors or the connectors ground some of the
> rotor away.
I believe the latter is true; i.e. the jumpers that came loose ground
the high spots off the armature as they rattled around inside between
the armature and case.
> Wonder if I can solder them back on?
I believe you can. Ours certainly look to have been soldered
originally, not spot welded or crimped. I suspect it would be prudent
to use silver solder for a higher melting point than the ordinary stuff.
You should be able to make new jumpers from copper foil/sheet of
appropriate thickness. It is easily cut with scissors, then fold it
like the original jumper and solder it on.
Good luck,
Roger.
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I think the stroke you're looking for is a slash from the upper right to
the lower left of the entry area (either alpha or number area). Think of
it as going from the end of one line of text to the beginning of the next.
That stroke is the equivalent of an Enter key.
Dragging the stylus from the entry area to the very top of the Palm screen
will give you help on the Grafiti strokes.
--chris
Steve Clunn said:
> I am trying to change some setting on my Zilla and have a palm , . I'm at
> the last part where I've picked a new number , got it in and it says
> "enter
> amps 250 " but I can't find enter anywhere , looked on keybord , tried all
> the othere bottens , hitting most just puts me back to the begining , . I
> tryed other setting and always get to the same point , where it say enter
> xxx then the number I put in ,
> STeve Clunn
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks there is a '99 72 volt electro truck on the gsa web site
http://gsaauctions.gov in Wa. closing 2/1. I wonder if it could be
improved by going to 96 or even 120 volt? Bill
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Yea Evercells where slugs... you could over heat the plates in just seconds
of 300 to 500 amp draws.
We kept them under 300 unless we where showing off.
I have a couple of them around...
You should not use them on any new project... they are unobtainable, and
took care in the charging thereof...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
> I thought folks reported NiZn couldn't pull much current without
> overheating. Are you sure you can get zilla levels of current from
> them?
>
> The EV1 and Tzero could do what you want on ~1300 lbs of lead acid
> batteries.
>
> --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> > BTT, with Evertroll NiZn batteries in a Triumph GT6, I could
> > have a 2,500 pound conversion that would accelerate in that
> > 7-8 second 0-60 range I mentioned, pull 15s in the 1/4,
> > consume < 190 wh/mile at 60 MPH speeds, go over 100 miles
> > per charge highway, and top 130. For about a $15k conversion
> > + restoration cost. If I could find an 'affordable'(Less
> > than $6k for a pack) battery that could give me 100 miles
> > range without having a pack weight in excess of 1,000
> > pounds, I'd gladly sacrifice performance as long as it
> > didn't get slower than about an 11 second 0-60 time,
> > although I'd be glad to have more performance than that by
> > far.
> > ...
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to change some setting on my Zilla and have a palm , . I'm at
the last part where I've picked a new number , got it in and it says "enter
amps 250 " but I can't find enter anywhere , looked on keybord , tried all
the othere bottens , hitting most just puts me back to the begining , . I
tryed other setting and always get to the same point , where it say enter
xxx then the number I put in ,
STeve Clunn
Hi Steve,
After typing the value of the current you want, it wants a "return" key.
I usually use the Graffiti input on the Palm to enter data so I
didn't realize that this can be a place to get stuck until recently
when I tried to teach Dennis how to do this. We discovered that when
using the "KBD" option to enter data, the "return" key does not work.
So this is one key that you'll need to learn to do in Graffiti.
Graffiti is the name of the Palms handwriting recognition system.
To type a "return" in Graffiti you need to draw a slash from the
upper right to the lower left of the text entry area. Like a normal
"/". The text entry area is the lower left "box" that has "abc"
printed in the lower left corner of it. Give that a try and see if
it works for you.
The Palm also has a pretty good tutorial program on how to write
Graffiti. I find it easy to use for most entries. The program is
called Graffiti and you can get to it by hitting the picture of a
house, and then the icon called Graffiti.
hth,
btw, for you techies out there. I sure wish I knew of a better serial
communication system for entering data in the Hairball. A keyboard,
no matter how small would be great, and at least 12 lines of display.
It needs to be able to talk rs-232 serial even after replacing dead
batteries without needing to be connected to a computer. Of course it
needs to be inexpensive as well. This is for those customers who
don't regularly use computers. So far the Palm is the best thing I've
found, but it does not have a keyboard, and the add on keyboards seem
to use up the serial port to function.
Any leads/ideas would be much appreciated.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
Get a small block chevy 350 cubic inch with no cat and a special camshaft,
do not forget a holley double pumper carburator.
Just kidding, but those figures are way too high.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Roger Stockton
Enviado el: viernes, 28 de enero de 2005 14:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
John Westlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> BTT, with Evertroll NiZn batteries in a Triumph GT6, I could
> have a 2,500 pound conversion that would accelerate in that
> 7-8 second 0-60 range I mentioned, pull 15s in the 1/4,
> consume < 190 wh/mile at 60 MPH speeds, go over 100 miles per
> charge highway, and top 130.
Quit worrying about not being able to find Evercel NiZn because they
wouldn't give you anywhere near the performance you are hoping for. The
voltage sag is too great at high discharge rates and reduces the
available power *significantly* compared to good AGMs of similar nominal
voltage.
I think you mentioned expecting something like 160Hp, but the real world
data for Sheer's Honda with a similar voltage NiZn pack was more like
80HP. A Z1k might give you better off-the-line performance than Sheer's
AC drive setup, but 15s in the 1/4 and 130MPH top end are unlikely.
Cheers,
Roger.
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David Dymnaxion wrote:
>I thought folks reported NiZn couldn't pull much
>current without
>overheating. Are you sure you can get zilla levels of
>current from
>them?
The Evertroll NiZn could push up to 500 amps, 400 amps
routinely without being harmed. From what I've read in the
archives, a 336V pack pulling 400 amps would sag to about
220 volts. Push it up to 500 amps and Evercel's quoted 280
watts per kilogram specific power figure seems accurate,
although I wouldn't really push them to their limits to keep
from damaging them.
With a Zilla, you could set the max battery current, which
would not affect your max motor current until the voltage of
the motor came up enough to meet increased power demand.
I originally wanted to do a NiZn conversion, with about
1,000-1,200 pounds of Evertrolls; if I would have used the
cheap $250 50 pound batteries I would have had a 240V pack
and about 20 kWh from 20 batteries, and have about peak 90
battery horsepower. If I'd have used smaller more expensive
40 pound batteries, I could have a 336V pack, 26 kWh, and
about 130 horsepower from 1120 pounds of batteries. That
pack cost for the more expensive batteries would have been
about $6k. From there, set the max battery current for the
Zilla to 400 amps, and max motor current at 1,000 amps.
>From there, Power in = Power out - small innefficiencies
I'd have at least 120 peak horsepower at the motor, as long
as the motor is getting 1,000 amps of current, about 220
lb-ft of torque. For a 2,400-2,600 pound EV, this would
equate to 0-60 in the 7-8 second range. This being above
average performance would have been great to have, with
plenty of range for interstate travel. At 180 wh/mile @
60-65 MPH from a 26 kWh pack, that would be more than 130
miles highway range. Drive real carefully at 55 and range
would exceed 150 miles. I certainly don't need this range, I
never drive more than 40 miles from home. But I'd certainly
like to have it using NiZn just to show people what an
affordable EV could have done, performance on par with a
$25,000 Toyota MR2 Spyder and more than enough range to feel
comfortable no matter where you drive, along with zero
battery maintenance, cold weather operating without
noticable performance/range loss, long shelf life if
batteries go unused, low operating cost per mile($.06 to
$.08 from batteries) and high depth of discharge capability
without killing the pack. NiZn made this possible in a <
$15k conversion.
Because I hear NiZn aren't available now, I've been planning
lead acid. Still undecided between Optimas and Orbitals
given conflicting figures. I intend to keep current draw at
60 MPH around 40 amps with a high voltage pack(It would be
40-45 amps with 240V), less if doable. Preferably less. If I
could cut weight down enough, I may be able to do 300V of
Optimas or Orbitals. The only problem would be fitting them.
So far it seems 240V of Optimas would fit, but anything more
is pushing things as I then start not having any 'trunk'
space.
My main concern with PbA is range. I don't know what to
expect. On one side, we have Rich Rudman's Goldie, with 192V
of Orbitals, only getting 20 miles if driven carefully,
Otmar with 240V getting the same, but on the other side the
Woodbury's with the Tango somehow manage 60-80 miles per
charge on 300V of orbitals? The Tango cannot be getting
better than 130 wh/mile highway by the looks of things, even
with narrow frontalarea, and according to Rudman's data on
Orbitals, each Orbital will provide about 300 wh at EV
current draws. With Optimas, at the same rate, Rudman found
them to be slightly less in capacity than orbs, but then
look at the lead acid TZero, getting 180 wh/mile. 336V of
Optimas took it 100 miles, which would be over 600
wh/battery! Yet John Wayland, with a car about as efficient,
can only manage 25-30 miles pussy footing it? Then there's
Bill Dube, having 8 kWh out of 16 Optima Yellowtops driving
at 60 MPH speeds.
That would be one very drastic peukert's curve.
Then there's Roger Stockton's data that has Optimas carrying
450+ wh/battery at 25 amp rates in not so ideal conditions
with some abuse, while Rich's data is a lot less cheery
looking, with only 300 wh/battery.
To be fair, ACP used battery heaters for the Optimas in the
TZero, keeping them at about 105 degrees to keep capacity
maximized. But that would not add more than 50 wh/battery
given the capacity vs. temperature curve.
So many conflicting figures, I don't know what to expect.
The more range I can get, the better. I'd be ok with only 20
miles to 70% DoD, but would like more. But I wouldn't want
to sacrifice too much performance. NiZn provided that
possibility of more than 50 miles(FAR more!) without having
to drastically give up on performance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uh, do any of you guys realize that there is nothing on the ETEK to attach
any sort of monitoring device to? The field is PM. The rotor and
commutator are effectively one and the same. There is probably an inch of
clearance between the end bars and the frame. By the time the frame even
gets warm the rotor will be slagged.
The only possible way to monitor the brazed end bars is with an IR
pyrometer. Those are cheaply available but IMHO, not worth the effort.
The way to make an ETEK survive is to limit the current. An ETEK isn't a
hunk of pig iron like an ADC or a forklift motor. There is almost no
thermal mass so even momentary overloads can cause damage.
BTW, those end bars are sil-phos brazed. Sil-phos requires no flux for
copper/copper joints and is a very common method of making internal motor
connections. It is available from most any HVAC distributor. Do not
confuse it with phos-copper. Lacking any silver, this alloy is of much
higher resistance.
Sil-phos melts at a dull red heat. The overcurrent must have been huge.
Like someone else said, you must monitor and limit MOTOR current and not
battery current. Motor current can be twice or more what the battery
current is.
John
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:37:35 -0300, "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>There are Temp. Sending units very cheap and precise, used to monitor
>processor core temperature in PC's, I recently installed one in a customer's
>PC, it cost about US$20, and it included a digital display, it goes from 0
>to 999 degrees celsius or farenheti. It's a wire you fix to the metal you
>want to monitor.
>
>ivo
>
>-----Mensaje original-----
>De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
>de richard ball
>Enviado el: viernes, 28 de enero de 2005 6:31
>Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Asunto: Re: ETEK problem found.
>
>thanks for that lawrence
>sorry for your disaster
>would it be worth monitoring the motor temperature ?
>any suggestions how best to do this ?
>regards
>reb
>
>Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It appears that the windings terminate at the top of the rotor and are
>connected to the other side with one inch connectors to the other side. It
>might be possible that with the hill climbing I heated up the motor enough
>to melt the connectors off the rotor. I lost 5 found 2 in the motor. It
>seems they balance the motor by grinding parts of the rotor connectors or
>the connectors ground some of the rotor away. It's in limited areas so it
>looks like it was done on purpose. It seems there are 128 of these
>connectors around the outside of the rotor. I can only guess I heated the
>motor too much. Seems my gear ratio is too high even though I didn't exceed
>the continous amp limit & had good power above 25mph on the hills. I still
>have a fried motor. Wonder if I can solder them back on? The motor was hot
>to the touch. Lawrence Rhodes.........Seems I am blowing things up so you
>guys don't have to. Watch your ETEK heating!
>Lawrence Rhodes
>Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>Reedmaker
>Book 4/5 doubler
>Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>415-821-3519
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
>--
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---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
>I think you mentioned expecting something like 160Hp,
>but the real world
>data for Sheer's Honda with a similar voltage NiZn
>pack was more like
>80HP. A Z1k might give you better off-the-line
>performance than Sheer's
>AC drive setup, but 15s in the 1/4 and 130MPH top end
>are unlikely.
Maybe I've been lusting over Wayland's Insight proposal for
too long then. With aero upgrades done to many EVs, my
planned GT6 conversion would be about as aerodynamic, with
such a small 15 square foot frontal area. Stock Cd is only
32.
Even 80 HP from them would be acceptable for the kind of
range and price they offered though...
That got Pullen's 3,100 pound Accord(At least 3,250 with
driver) from 0-60 in 14 seconds and gave it a 100+ MPH top
end. For 100+ miles range, even 11 seconds 0-60 would be
acceptable for me.
Sifting through the archives a while back, John Wayland
proposed a NiZn powered Datsun minitruck using a Zilla 1k,
and with less batteries than I had planned, expected 0-60 in
about 10 seconds and over 90 miles range with about a 2,800
pound curb weight.
As for that NiZn data, is there any data found on voltage
sag anywhere? On Rudman's site, I found some very promising
cycle life and AH capacity data, but all I found in relation
to current vs. voltage was within the list archives and not
what I would call hard data, but better than nothing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar,
Do you have some formalization of the command set the Zilla implements
so it can be called programmatically? That is, is there a better way
than just writing out to a serial port the commands the Zilla accepts
and parsing out the text that it would otherwise return to a Palm Pilot?
SteveM
http://www.ghiamonster.com
>STeve Clunn
Hi Steve,
After typing the value of the current you want, it wants a "return" key.
I usually use the Graffiti input on the Palm to enter data so I
didn't realize that this can be a place to get stuck until recently
when I tried to teach Dennis how to do this. We discovered that when
using the "KBD" option to enter data, the "return" key does not work.
So this is one key that you'll need to learn to do in Graffiti.
Graffiti is the name of the Palms handwriting recognition system.
To type a "return" in Graffiti you need to draw a slash from the
upper right to the lower left of the text entry area. Like a normal
"/". The text entry area is the lower left "box" that has "abc"
printed in the lower left corner of it. Give that a try and see if
it works for you.
The Palm also has a pretty good tutorial program on how to write
Graffiti. I find it easy to use for most entries. The program is
called Graffiti and you can get to it by hitting the picture of a
house, and then the icon called Graffiti.
hth,
btw, for you techies out there. I sure wish I knew of a better serial
communication system for entering data in the Hairball. A keyboard,
no matter how small would be great, and at least 12 lines of display.
It needs to be able to talk rs-232 serial even after replacing dead
batteries without needing to be connected to a computer. Of course it
needs to be inexpensive as well. This is for those customers who
don't regularly use computers. So far the Palm is the best thing I've
found, but it does not have a keyboard, and the add on keyboards seem
to use up the serial port to function.
Any leads/ideas would be much appreciated.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
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delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 5:30 AM
Subject: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage, than
motor voltage?)
> Hi all,
>
> I have read a number of descriptions of how electronic (DC)
> motor speed controllers following the PWM approach work. However,
> I still have a (basic) question about their workings:
>
> On these controllers battery amps are not equal to motor amps.
> To me this can only be if the controller is not at a 100%
> duty cycle and is due capacitors that buffer battery current
> during the off cycle. So the battery may see a constant
> current and the motor sees a higher pulse current. The
> mean value of current over time (RMS?) should be the same, right?
Actually it's the freewheel diodes that carry the extened current pulse. The
Caps help keep the battery side ripple down, and add peak stored energy
available for the next pulse.
>
> In a sense this operation sounds very familiar to a DC/DC
> converter, right?
>
Yup... I guess so. The term is Buck DC to DC control mode.
> Ok, now about the effect/advantage of this?
> 1. the motor will more often operate with high currents, than
> say with a contactor/resistor controller, thus heats up more
> quickly and has less brush live? (Right?)
>
NO! The current is rather smooth, that's why you use Caps and good diodes.
The higher peak currents heat the brushes... But... That's life A contactor
resistor controller dumps the power you can't use as Heat outside the motor
controller.. Not where you want to use it. In effect these controllers let
the motor voltage run where the current sets it. So you may get MUCH higher
currents at much lower motor voltages...Until you get to full power and %100
PWM you will not get motor voltage to equal batter voltage. Hopefully this
is at a point that the motor can stand the full voltage and not draw many
times more current than it can stand. Us racers of course....do this all the
time.
> 2. the motor has full torque at low RPM?
The motor had teh torque that the amps the controller gives it can make.
More amps is more torque...if the brushes don't fire ball....
>
> And now my main question:
> 3. the motor can be run from a higher voltage battery pack than
> the motor rated voltage?
Much higher!!
On our high end controllers... aka the Zilla line of controllers... you
can program the peak motor voltage, and that can be a LOT less that the
battery voltage. This keeps a 48 volt motor from fireballing it's comm if
you have a 200 to 400 volt battery pack. This is s very nice design
feature... and expensive.
>
> The last question I am most interested. I own an elec-trak tractor
> and it usually works with 36V with a compound wound 1.2HP motor.
> If I up the voltage to 48V for the field and vary the armature
> voltage with a controller from 0-75% duty cycle do I get more
> torque with the same top speed? Also at 75% duty cycle I'd
> still have some buffering capacity so I would still be able
> to support a higher motor current (if needed) than with
> 36V operation while the battery current should be about the
> same as in 36V operation (the additional power coming from the
> fact that now the current is delivered to the controller at a
> higher voltage).
Only if you can supply the same current. You may find that with 48 volts,
you can get full amps(max torque) and quite a bit higher rpm. The exact
percentages are not hard and fast.
If before you could not get the motor to draw full current at top speed, you
will find that it draws a lot more with more voltage on it. If you are
controller limited in amps at 36 volts, and you raise the battery volts up
and you can still have to controller limit the current to the same voltage
and current, but yes it will draw less battery amps.
I ran into this this week. I had a over loaded Etek with a 350 amp Sevcon
controller. The battery pack was 48 volts. The motor was pulling 350 amps..
and the motor voltage was 16 volts. Since the amps were railed adding more
battery voltage would NOT give any more power. Just less battery current,
but the motor side would not have changed a bit. The ratio was off by 1/2
or more. He needs a 1:8 instead of a 1:4
> Would the higher battery voltage also mean that the batteries
> are loaded with lower average current, thus longer live and
> less peukerts effects? (However, I'd probably have to use
> the 8V golf-cart bats instead of the 6V which, according to
> some reports I read on this list, may performe worse overall)
>
> Related: Could I run my 12V powerwheels motors with a 36V controller
> and 36V batteries limited to something like 33% duty cycle?
>
Sure could !! and if you wanted to rip up the drive train, Why limit the
PWM.
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No enter on a Palm ????
I think I will stay with my old laptop when firing off my Zilla.
I should have it running test gear this weekend.
I took it down and whiped the "Gone Postal" Blood off it.. I finally did the
hardware upgrade that Ot's been nagging me about.
I have to flash updated code... Us Bit heads want the best we can get.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Zilla /palm
> I am trying to change some setting on my Zilla and have a palm , . I'm at
> the last part where I've picked a new number , got it in and it says
"enter
> amps 250 " but I can't find enter anywhere , looked on keybord , tried all
> the othere bottens , hitting most just puts me back to the begining , . I
> tryed other setting and always get to the same point , where it say enter
> xxx then the number I put in ,
> STeve Clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NiZn provided that
> possibility of more than 50 miles(FAR more!) without having
> to drastically give up on performance.
>
What we are getting tired of is that it's been a couple of years since this
happened... Evercells lost luster a while ago.
Also you seam to be stuck on the fact that we COULD get power from them but
at at rather significant cost.
We were warned not to go over 300 amps. We could .... but not for long.
These batteries represented a 1/3 drop in total amps that we could pull
SAFEly...
They had plastic plates, too many amps and the plates melted... too hot and
you had a few grand of melted Zn and plastic.
We considered them Range batteries not racing batteries.
I have the 3 we tested sitting on the Garage slab.....feet a way....
Yea the dream was NimH batteries for cheap... poor man's Nick met Hydride...
Sigh!!!!!
Lithium........is what our current dreams are made of.
--- End Message ---
