EV Digest 4069
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: pusher trailer info
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hub Motors, have anyone used these yet?
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Control question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors (Zinc air URL's)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Control question
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Control question
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV letters to editor in The Christian Science Monitor
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hub Motors, In Oakland, CA
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (dyno)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: pusher trailer info
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (dyno)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) NiZN source
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (Goldie)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (Goldie)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: NiZn source
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Zombie Dyno Time & the 2005 1/4 Mile Drag Season.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: NiZn source
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Semicad.totoi NiCad batteries
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Control question
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Grrr, I did say tadpole didn't I? My mistake, my last trike was a
tadpole, current design is a "Delta" trike. Sorry about that.
Be careful with the caster wheel design. I've never tried one, but I've
read that they can be very unstable at speed. Among other potential
problems, if you aren't careful with your design, it can end up moving
your center of ballance outward when cornering, which is exactly the
opposite of what you want to happen.
I did quite a lot of drawings/CAD work on my first trike and only a couple
mockups. I ended up with a trike that was functional and comfortable to
sit on, but cumbersom to mount/dismount even without the fairing on. Once
I started to add a fairing, it became obvious that I'd need to be a
contortionist.
The main problem was my handlebars. I was using a tall "T" type arrangement.
Here is a link to a picture of the trike near completion:
http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_trike.jpg
You can see the handlebars a bit better in this photo of just the frame:
http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_frame.jpg
The problems with the T handle design:
A) it needed to be high enough and far enough back to avoid hitting it
with my legs while pedalling.
B) needed to be low enough that I could see over it.
C) needed to be far enough forward that it didn't hit my chest.
This leaves a pretty small region where the handlebars could be located.
Mounting the trike from the side was a bit awkward, but doable, however
trying to mount from above (i.e. like climbing into the cockpit of a
fighter jet) was really a pain. Trying to do it with a fairing on,
without standing on the fairing, was ..well, let's just say I gave up on
the idea.
One possible solution is to move the handlebars up and forward, so they
end up over your knees. I didn't like this because either you end up
blocking your vision or moving your head up to see over. Neither option
was acceptable to me.
So, even though it tend to make your frontal area larger, I've decided to
go with something like Under Seat Steering (USS) instead of Above Seat
Steering (ASS) (don't blame me, I don't make these acronyms up)
Anyway, the point (that I'm getting to in a round about way) is that I
think mockups (even if they are made of cardboard and bailing wire) are
more important than drawings/CAD. It's really hard to model ergonomics on
a computer unless you have some really expensive software and a lot of
training.
FWIW, it takes roughly 200 watts to propell the average person, on a
standard bicycle, over flat terrain, at 20 mph.
A rough calculation on how much power it would require to move a 200lb
vehicle with a 165lb rider (average weight) up a 5% incline, comes out to
right at 1kw of input power.
So it sounds like you've got a good design so far.
> snip
> 25-35 mph.
> I was thinking 20mph max speed
>
>
> Fancy that: I too am working on a tadpole opposite
> configutation though-- two driven side wheels and a
> caster rear wheel (robot stearing) very low to the
> ground- full faring--possibly some solar panels-
> whole thing to weigh less than 200lbs 36/48v
> 2-500watt motors li-ion/caps
>
> do you have any drawings/engineering calks as to
> performance/computer inerface ideas etc
>
>
>> will be a tadpole
>> design (single front wheel) with electrically driven
>> rear wheels and
>> steering similar to the flevo bike. This would
>> allow me to pedal-drive
>> the front wheel and avoid the long chain to the rear
>> that most recumbents
>> have as well as avoiding the twisting chain setups
>> that most front wheel
>> drive recumbents have.
>>
>> Now all I have to do is figure out a simple,
>> efficient, and light weight
>> method of connecting and disconnecting the pedals
>> front the front wheel.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When did this happen? Did you get new sponsorship from Hawker? I didn't
think the Hawkers could put out nearly the amps of the Orbitals, but then
again at 336V you won't need as high of amps to make the same HP. Oh, I can
hear the sound of exploding Hawkers already... You are still going to use
your neck snapping afterburner bypass, right? It's going to be a fun race
season!
pushed by a new lighter pack of powerful 26 ahr Hawker batteries at 336V.
To make 101 mph
If things don't work out as planned, it's still loaded up with 288V of
Orbitals, and
though downright porky at over 2700 lbs., it should still be able to run a
12.7 -12.8 @
103-104 mph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://goldenmotor.com/
Has any one bought from these people and
used these yet. They have very good prices and looks
like mini e teks. I'm really interested if they are
legit.
I bought an M-Wheel-12 from them for my e-mountainboard project with
the higher-speed 36V BLDC motor.
Impressions? Like any hub motor, torque isn't outstanding. It's pretty
quiet, though you do get some cogging noise/vibration. The wires are
small (~18AWG, plus really tiny ones for the hall sensors) with crappy
vinyl insulation, but that might be due in part to having to run them
out the shaft. I don't know how good their controllers are (I'm using
this servo-amplifier-in-a-brick thingy since I need 4-quadrant current
control).
Airmail from China literally doubled the price, though.
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, you could always solve the skid steer problem by re-inventing the
wheel. A swiss company did that 35 years ago and a company called Airtrax
is now building forklifts with these wheels that can move in any direction
without changing their heading or spin in place with virtually no wheel
scuffing.
Of course it looks a little complicated for a hobbiest to implement, but
you guys are resourceful:
http://www.designnews.com/article/CA435605.html
http://www.airtrax.com/technology/
> ...
> best bet is to drive the rear four wheels and steer
> the front two
> for this set up with hub motors you get the added
> bonus of natural differential action ( you will still
> have some tyre scrub but not as much)
> ...
> --- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > My wife and I were going through some old Mother
> > Earth News and Popular
> > Science magazines and we came across an old add for
> > the Max IV. This is
> > an amphibious 6 wheel drive gizmo powered by a small
> > gasoline engine.
> >
> > I've always thought they were neat and got to
> > thinking about "Hey, that
> > would be a neat EV". Now I have no intention of
> > converting one to
> > electric, those things are EXPENSIVE but I got to
> > thinking about
> > building a little 6wheel go cart/street runner.
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of the 100 Mph club.
It's a new year... the Slate is clean for 2005.
So... all us fast Boys need to get out and do it again.
The rules are Real time slips. 1/4 mile runs.
Street legal, Tags, and insurance required.
This is simply a NO BS club.
And for the record I am NOT a memeber. As I recall for 2004 and 4 only one
is John "Plasma Boy" Wayland
Am I wrong???.
Bikes are welcome...Same rules.
Otmar should have made it, and so should have Gone Postal.
didn't happen.
Time to try again.
On the Warp 11 and 13s. I have heard the 11 is s Kostov up grade...OK but
not the best for drag racing, and the 13 is rather expensive, and has a 4000
RPM redline. Both are buildt to order. Read not in stock.
This makes the Dual motor Advanced 8s and 9s setups a LOT more favorable.
I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he needs to get
going on his monster motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charge at the Dyno site???
That's easy!!
If you have a green box of mine.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 06:30 -0800, John Wayland wrote:
> > pushed by a new lighter pack of powerful 26 ahr Hawker batteries at
336V. To make 101 mph
> > in the 1/4 mile, the motors are hit with 186 kw of power at 6447
rpm....249 hp of
> > electrical energy going into the motors, and who knows what, actually
coming out of them.
> > If things work out well this year and I get the Hawkers, well over 300
'delivered hp'
> > should be on tap into a lightened White Zombie, down from its 240V
Orbital powered
> > version's ~ 2550 lb. weight, to closer to 2300 lbs....should be fun!
>
> Heh.. if we are wishing. How about my wish that John will put the
> Zombie on a dyno and actually measure RWHP instead of just guessing.
>
> Real world motor numbers would be really helpful in calculating shaft HP
> and torque for certain motor/controller/battery combinations. Once the
> EV community has reasonable guesses on those numbers we can make speed
> and accelerations estimates based on driveline ratios and weight.
>
> I still haven't dyno'd my MR2 (need to figure out how to charge once I
> get to the dyno site).. so I should probably keep my mouth shut.
>
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At EVS12 (in Anaheim) I spoke with the exhibitors at the Deutscher Pfosten
(sic?) (German Mail Service) display - they were using zinc-air for a
large
fleet, and used centralized processing (they weren't even interested in
its
implimentation on an individual owner basis). They traded out renewed
cells and
sent the used ones off to get regenerated. I don't know if they still have
these
vehicles in use, since that was 8 years ago, when EV1's were available for
lease!
Neither snow nor rain nor energy crisis stays the German Postal Service from
the completion of their rounds. This summer, German's mail couriers will
become leaders in the transportation revolution, taking to streets in
electric fleets. Mail delivery and the electric battery will meet in the
largest-ever use of electricity powered, zero-emissions vehicles.
The German Postal Service (Deutsche Bundepost Postdienst) will be the first
to attempt a widespread use of electric vehicles to deliver mail in place of
fossil-fuel-dependent--and pollution-causing--vehicles. Over 50 vans and ...
Mother Earth News; 6/1/1995
http://www.electric-fuel.com/evpro/germany.shtml
http://www.electric-fuel.com/evtech/EF-tech-brochure.pdf
http://catf.vizonscitec.com/Index/18D692EAED1F88EE88256976006BEADD!OpenDocument
http://www.electric-fuel.com/evnews/021712.shtml
http://www.iza.com/zwo_org/Applications/Other_end_uses/030903.htm
Electric Vito's are being tested by Deutsche Post AG in Bremen,
Germany and at the Expo 2000 in Hannover. The Vito series vehicles, model
type 108 E, will be used primarily for delivering mail. The vehicle trials
are part of an EU project, EVD-Post, in which other European postal services
are also participating. The aim of this project is to test electric vehicles
for use in postal distribution services.
The Mercedes Vito 108 E has a 40kW (2,000 to 5,000 rpm) DC
asynchronous motor with a maximum torque of 1 9ONm at 2,000 rpm. The manual
gearbox has five forward gears with an operating range of up to 130
kilometres depending on terrain and use; the maximum speed is about 120km /
hr. In order to optimally use stored energy, the electric motor of the Vito
108 E functions as an electric brake. The energy generated charges the high
energy battery located in the cargo area.
A maintenance-free "Zebra Z5" battery (Na/NiC 12) from Switzerland
weighing 410 kg serves as an energy accumulator and has a minimum of 1,000
charging cycles. The payload is approximately 500 kg.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where did you get the data on 4000RPM redline on the 13"?
I'm pretty sure Netgain has dyno data beyond this (~6000RPM)...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
< ...snip... >
On the Warp 11 and 13s. I have heard the 11 is s Kostov up grade...OK
but
not the best for drag racing, and the 13 is rather expensive, and has a
4000
RPM redline. Both are buildt to order. Read not in stock.
This makes the Dual motor Advanced 8s and 9s setups a LOT more
favorable.
I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he needs to get
going on his monster motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are many things that I can't keep John from doing.....
That Killer bypass afterburner thing..... Nope John's hooked.... Gotta have
it!!!
Yea, Right ... the sound of exploding Hawkers ... yup you go it.
He's going to use the 26 amphour batteries... and they are supposed to make
big enough amps.
Grashopper Forget... tiny toy batteries Go bang!!!
Biggem' Orbitals heavy, but go like stink!
Anyways I see John slipping back into blowing stuff up instead if going
fast.
Sigh!!!.......I tried.
Man I am going to have to reach for the 2 by 4... Anyways... at 336 V and
the killer bypass, I don't think I will have to say much after he tires it
once.
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> When did this happen? Did you get new sponsorship from Hawker? I didn't
> think the Hawkers could put out nearly the amps of the Orbitals, but then
> again at 336V you won't need as high of amps to make the same HP. Oh, I
can
> hear the sound of exploding Hawkers already... You are still going to use
> your neck snapping afterburner bypass, right? It's going to be a fun race
> season!
>
>
> >pushed by a new lighter pack of powerful 26 ahr Hawker batteries at 336V.
> >To make 101 mph
>
> >If things don't work out as planned, it's still loaded up with 288V of
> >Orbitals, and
> >though downright porky at over 2700 lbs., it should still be able to run
a
> >12.7 -12.8 @
> >103-104 mph.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, you could always solve the skid steer problem by re-inventing the
wheel. A swiss company did that 35 years ago and a company called
Airtrax
is now building forklifts with these wheels that can move in any
direction
without changing their heading or spin in place with virtually no wheel
scuffing.
I played around a bit with some omniwheels (www.omniwheel.com), which
is the same sort of thing.
I thought about arranging three of them in a delta pattern to make a
battle bot that could scoot around in any direction instantaneously,
all the while spinning (with a big saw blade around the outside).
Or mount three of them driving a basketball and make a 2D Segway :).
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
great idea peter
i'll just pop out to the garage and knock up something similar - should only
take an hour or two
interesting link though
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, you could always solve the skid steer problem by re-inventing the
wheel. A swiss company did that 35 years ago and a company called Airtrax
is now building forklifts with these wheels that can move in any direction
without changing their heading or spin in place with virtually no wheel
scuffing.
Of course it looks a little complicated for a hobbiest to implement, but
you guys are resourceful:
http://www.designnews.com/article/CA435605.html
http://www.airtrax.com/technology/
> ...
> best bet is to drive the rear four wheels and steer
> the front two
> for this set up with hub motors you get the added
> bonus of natural differential action ( you will still
> have some tyre scrub but not as much)
> ...
> --- James Jarrett
> wrote:
> > My wife and I were going through some old Mother
> > Earth News and Popular
> > Science magazines and we came across an old add for
> > the Max IV. This is
> > an amphibious 6 wheel drive gizmo powered by a small
> > gasoline engine.
> >
> > I've always thought they were neat and got to
> > thinking about "Hey, that
> > would be a neat EV". Now I have no intention of
> > converting one to
> > electric, those things are EXPENSIVE but I got to
> > thinking about
> > building a little 6wheel go cart/street runner.
> >
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked George Hamstra from Netgain specifically about this a few months
ago. His response was [paraphrasing] that he "wouldn't go above 5000".
--chris
Klemkosky, Mark A said:
> Where did you get the data on 4000RPM redline on the 13"?
>
> I'm pretty sure Netgain has dyno data beyond this (~6000RPM)...
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
> < ...snip... >
>
> On the Warp 11 and 13s. I have heard the 11 is s Kostov up grade...OK
> but
> not the best for drag racing, and the 13 is rather expensive, and has a
> 4000
> RPM redline. Both are buildt to order. Read not in stock.
>
> This makes the Dual motor Advanced 8s and 9s setups a LOT more
> favorable.
>
> I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he needs to get
> going on his monster motor.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Where did you get the data on 4000RPM redline on the 13"?
>I'm pretty sure Netgain has dyno data beyond this
>(~6000RPM)...
"336v, 13" motor = 1,600 - 2,200 ft. lbs tq and 9 secs at
150mph?"
http://www.go-ev.com/racing-ba.html
I'd have to see some chassis dyno numbers first. Or atleast
a 1/4 mile run...
Are those numbers accurate?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
>needs to get
>going on his monster motor.
What's the "monster motor" going to be?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last week the Monitor ran an article on hybrid owners modifying their
vehicles to allow plug-in charging. Today's issue has four letters
praising EV's and giving more info! More than one letter writer is
from the EVDL, including myself. See them online here:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0201/p08s01-cole.html
The original article is available free in their archives for a week or
so.
Jerry McIntire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Frank,
I see they are shipped now FOB Arkansas and
under distributors they have one in Oakland, CA. Maybe
someone in SF area could drop by and see what's
happening?
Their phone is 510-655-1069 and address on
the website.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> http://goldenmotor.com/
> > Has any one bought from these people
> and
> > used these yet. They have very good prices and
> looks
> > like mini e teks. I'm really interested if they
> are
> > legit.
>
> I bought an M-Wheel-12 from them for my
> e-mountainboard project with
> the higher-speed 36V BLDC motor.
>
> Impressions? Like any hub motor, torque isn't
> outstanding. It's pretty
> quiet, though you do get some cogging
> noise/vibration. The wires are
> small (~18AWG, plus really tiny ones for the hall
> sensors) with crappy
> vinyl insulation, but that might be due in part to
> having to run them
> out the shaft. I don't know how good their
> controllers are (I'm using
> this servo-amplifier-in-a-brick thingy since I need
> 4-quadrant current
> control).
>
> Airmail from China literally doubled the price,
> though.
>
> -Frank
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a quote from one of the Uof W Guys doing research on motors for
thier Fiero.
There may be a bit of a difference in thier"own" motor and the ones for
sale.
Also....what you can do and should do are two different things.
Pushing a motor on the Dyno, and recomended street limits, are two different
concepts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Where did you get the data on 4000RPM redline on the 13"?
>
> I'm pretty sure Netgain has dyno data beyond this (~6000RPM)...
>
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Heh.. if we are wishing. How about my wish that John will
>put the
>Zombie on a dyno and actually measure RWHP instead of just
>guessing.
I agree. I would really like to see some modern hp/tq
graphs of whats being put out at the tires. All I've ever
seen is hand drawn graphs of what these motors supposedly
put out.
Here are the dyno locations in Oregon:
http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/or.htm
http://www.mustangdyne.com/LocatorPages/DynLoc_OR.htm
If I had any money, I'd pay for the session myself!
Regards
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
You might want to consider the front end of a front wheel drive car.
I'd be concerned about an air-cooled motor overheating while
drafting a pickup. You'd have to find a reliable way to read cylinder
head temperatures and keep air flowing in slow traffic.
I'm getting better than 42 mpg out of a 2,300 pound 4-cylinder
Chevy Metro at highway speeds. They're also ULEV and can be
found cheap. I think that would make an ideal pusher.
Tim
----------
> From: "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: pusher trailer info
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:35:54 -0600
>
> application... add a pusher trailer to a small ev pickup weight of approx.
> 2700 lbs, need to add another 60 miles to distance
> traveled...using a wisconsin air cooled 65 h.p. engine, belt or chain drive
> for highway use.
> any ideas or problems seen?
> thanks
> jim
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually there are at least 2 other water brake dynos that John and I know
of in Portland... I have climbed over one them
And up here in the Seattle area there are about a 1/2 dozzen commercial Dyno
sites.
And of course I have most of one... I just have not fully instrumented it
out.
so... yea I too want data and not sales propaganda.
And Otmar has a accelerometer, and Joe Smalley has aG-Dyno that works with
a G-Anylist.. That we have used on Big blocks since the 80s.
If you want to know... Goldie needs only 67 Hp to do 16.77s in the quater..
So..... I have the power for Zombie Scaring efforts, and NO traction....
Un less I dump about $2500 in suspension tricks... into a rusting bent up
unibody, John has few worries about Goldie messing up his Throne.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (dyno)
> >Heh.. if we are wishing. How about my wish that John will
> >put the
> >Zombie on a dyno and actually measure RWHP instead of just
> >guessing.
>
> I agree. I would really like to see some modern hp/tq
> graphs of whats being put out at the tires. All I've ever
> seen is hand drawn graphs of what these motors supposedly
> put out.
>
> Here are the dyno locations in Oregon:
>
>
> http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/or.htm
>
> http://www.mustangdyne.com/LocatorPages/DynLoc_OR.htm
>
>
> If I had any money, I'd pay for the session myself!
>
>
> Regards
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NO public comment!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> >needs to get
> >going on his monster motor.
>
> What's the "monster motor" going to be?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The torque plots on the webpage look real. And I am sure they are.
But the NetGain guys really need to get some 2000 amp load curves done.....
With just the motor.
The 1600 to 2200 ftlbs look like real wheel numbers..... Not motor
numbers...
2200 lbs on the motor shafts would do wheel stands!!, and break even Nitro
spec trannies!!!
At 2000 amps we are finding about 400 Ftlbs, on 8s and Kostovs 11inchers.
The Netgain folks have the Bucks.... Dyno time guys???? 500 amps... come on
that's Eco Geek street trim!!
Life starts at 1200 amps...!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >Where did you get the data on 4000RPM redline on the 13"?
>
> >I'm pretty sure Netgain has dyno data beyond this
> >(~6000RPM)...
>
>
> "336v, 13" motor = 1,600 - 2,200 ft. lbs tq and 9 secs at
> 150mph?"
>
> http://www.go-ev.com/racing-ba.html
>
> I'd have to see some chassis dyno numbers first. Or atleast
> a 1/4 mile run...
>
>
> Are those numbers accurate?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got this email from the customer. Just forwarding
it, but the info worth as much as you paid for it.
Victor
=====================================
...
I have found a retail source for Evercel Ni-Zn batteries; Texas eRider
will be stocking them in quantity for their electric scooter imports.
The MB80 has 64 Ah at C3 rate, 24 of those will provide 288 volts and
weigh about 400 kg.
I have also located an engineer willing to work with the higher
voltages (but would still have the cutting and welding done at CanEV).
Do you have pricing on the Siemens 1PV5105WS12 motor and Simotion and
Simovert inverters?
John Shandro
Victoria
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>and NO traction....
>Unless I dump about $2500 in suspension tricks
I think a certain size of these drag radials will fit:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4501&prmenbr=361
Or put some little slicks on it:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2548&prmenbr=361
Check out the suspension tricks on this site for the 10
second Reliant:
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/traction.html
And check out this AWESOME 10.5 sec @ 130mph Reliant
dusting a late model Toyota Supra:
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/video/kcar_vs_supra_long.zip
Here is an impressive (and satisfying) video of a Honda
Civic running 10's in the 1/4 with some little slicks:
http://members.cox.net/rstotts/sublime1084.wmv
(works best if right clicked and choose save as then watch
it, vs's streaming it)
Just showing 10's in the 1/4 can be done with front wheel
drive(with traction).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This question makes sense only for John's stereos - they may limit
range. I have asked John the same question when he demo'ed stereo
in his Insight to me. I believe he said it may reduce the range by 1-3%
if left run full power.
Victor
damon henry wrote:
One of the funny things about having a nice stereo in an EV is that the
first question people ask is how much it limits your range. I remember
asking Wayland this myself, way back when I was new to this stuff.
People have no concept of how much energy it takes to move a car. They
just know how far they can go between fillups, and of course the price
of gas.
I never really listened to any sort of music much, but when
my EV is finished and usable, I do intend to have a nice
sound system, just to shatter a few myths, even if the sound
may go unused 99.9% of the time. I'll be certain to ask you
for recommendations on systems and speakers when the time
comes. I'm thinking 600 watts or so should be plenty.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind I have DOT drag tires. But the whole front end bends on a solid
launch. Much stiffening hardware needed , and a Fiesta has a pretty whimpy
tranny.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions (Goldie)
> >and NO traction....
> >Unless I dump about $2500 in suspension tricks
>
> I think a certain size of these drag radials will fit:
>
>
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4501&prmenbr=361
>
> Or put some little slicks on it:
>
>
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2548&prmenbr=361
>
>
> Check out the suspension tricks on this site for the 10
> second Reliant:
>
> http://www.thedodgegarage.com/
>
> http://www.thedodgegarage.com/traction.html
>
> And check out this AWESOME 10.5 sec @ 130mph Reliant
> dusting a late model Toyota Supra:
>
> http://www.thedodgegarage.com/video/kcar_vs_supra_long.zip
>
>
> Here is an impressive (and satisfying) video of a Honda
> Civic running 10's in the 1/4 with some little slicks:
>
> http://members.cox.net/rstotts/sublime1084.wmv
>
> (works best if right clicked and choose save as then watch
> it, vs's streaming it)
>
> Just showing 10's in the 1/4 can be done with front wheel
> drive(with traction).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Victor.
Even if the source has them, they aren't garunteed to have
any reliability. These aren't the original Evertrolls,
correct?
Assuming the source is correct, and MB80s are all they
have(They may have others), it is interesting to think of
the EV concepts that can be made. John Pullen's Accord got
120 miles per charge freeway to 100% DoD, did 0-60 in 14
seconds, and topped 100 MPH with a set of 22 of the 85 amp
hour Evercels.
These MB80s are 64 AH, more or less 60 AH at EV
rates(guestimated).
Pullen's 264V pack sagged to 189V at a 280 amp draw, or
about 70 horsepower. This is about .064 horsepower per pound
of battery based on the size of his pack and a 280 amp
limit. With 28 MB80s, a car could theoretically have 65
battery horsepower on tap with a 280 amp limit for regular
use. 300 amps max would give it a slight increase.
I haven't run simulations on these new figures(That they can
only handle 300 amps, and not 400 amps, and since the
smaller batteries would sag more instead of stay the same,
unlike what I assumed), but if Pullen's car can do 0-60 in
14 with 70 battery horsepower, a car that is going to be
more than 500 pounds lighter may perform at least as good as
an average car(0-60 in 10-11 secs), with some long range...
Of course, I wouldn't be willing to plunk cash down on these
batteries just yet anyway, assuming the company has them, as
there are no guarantees whether they would even work. It's a
nice thought though. I’d gladly give up drag-race
performance if I could have ‘average’ performance(No
slower than 0-60 in 11) but long range. Anything slower
though, and give me AGMs anyday. If range on Evercels
wasn’t so spectacular, I’d never have considered using
them at all, as floodeds give a slight range boost over
AGMs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Mark Farver wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 06:30 -0800, John Wayland wrote:
> > pushed by a new lighter pack of powerful 26 ahr Hawker batteries at 336V.
> > To make 101 mph
> > in the 1/4 mile, the motors are hit with 186 kw of power at 6447 rpm....249
> > hp of
> > electrical energy going into the motors, and who knows what, actually
> > coming out of them.
> > If things work out well this year and I get the Hawkers, well over 300
> > 'delivered hp'
> > should be on tap into a lightened White Zombie, down from its 240V Orbital
> > powered
> > version's ~ 2550 lb. weight, to closer to 2300 lbs....should be fun!
>
> Heh.. if we are wishing. How about my wish that John will put the
> Zombie on a dyno and actually measure RWHP instead of just guessing.
Until I get the 'button' to where it works reliably and is repeatable with no
welded
contactors, strapping it to a dyno is a bad idea. I want to just see what it
will make on
the dyno, just as bad as everyone wants me to, but I don't want to be haphazard
about it or
endanger anyone. The car reacts pretty violently on the track, breaking
traction at 60-70 mph
on a sticky race track when, as Rich Rudman says, I jump to hyper speed. I need
to be able to
test the car safely and be able to turn on and off the parallel mode reliably.
I'm hoping to
get the BIG SCR working to where I can do this. I also need to remount the
motors to finally
get rid of the nagging vibration problem so that test can be done without worry
of things
flying apart, and those plans were put into motion today.
>
> Real world motor numbers would be really helpful in calculating shaft HP
> and torque for certain motor/controller/battery combinations.
I couldn't agree more. I've got two dynos within a couple miles of my house,
both sponsoring
me with free time, too. It 'will' happen.
>From Madman:
> The rules are Real time slips. 1/4 mile runs.
> Street legal, Tags, and insurance required.
> This is simply a NO BS club
>
.
Well said!
>It's a new year... the Slate is clean for 2005.
Yes, it is. The 240V mark for my car will have to stay at 12.99 @ 101 mph, so
it's there to
be taken away from me. I'm back in the SC/A class with a guaranteed 288V setup,
and hopefully,
a 336V setup once again, so my efforts will be in this class this year...at
least with 'this'
car :-)
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
Thanks, Victor.
Even if the source has them, they aren't garunteed to have
any reliability. These aren't the original Evertrolls,
correct?
No idea,
Pullen's 264V pack sagged to 189V at a 280 amp draw, or
about 70 horsepower. This is about .064 horsepower per pound
of battery based on the size of his pack and a 280 amp
limit. With 28 MB80s, a car could theoretically have 65
battery horsepower on tap with a 280 amp limit for regular
use. 300 amps max would give it a slight increase.
Inverter's limit is 280A battery amps, and you will rarely
reach it. Consuming more than 280A is not possible
(with Simovert 6SV-1 inverters as Sheer's).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:14:25 -0500
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>From: James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Semicad nicad
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Anyone know anything about these?
>
>http://semicad.totoi.com/html/1.html
>
>David Thompson
Very interesting site. They have 4 categories of batteries, based on
rate of discharge and how long to maintain that discharge. The show
the amp/hr capacity of each type, the dimentions of each, the total
weight, and the amount of electrolyte for each. The site also has
lots of discharge rate data, up to 20C.
I don't understand, though, how the amp/hr capacity is related to the
amount of electrolyte in each cell, versus the metal plates. Can
someone interpret the data on this web site, and explain how it would
apply to a standard driving EV? It seems like there is enough data
there to have a good idea of how well they would fit in an EV, but I
don't have the experience to interpret the data.
Thanks for any help people can offer.
--
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
with tank steering you slow down one side and speed up
the other side and none of the wheels change their
direction. it is like "robot" steering and yes you
can do a u-turn in the length of the vehicle. another
advantage is there are no cross chassie axels. in fact
there are no axles in the traditional sense at all.
bobcats/tanks/and my trike all steer this way. it is a
blast at low speed and can be controlled at hi speed
with a delicate controller. also there is no physical
linkage it is all eletronic so a joystick drives it
foward/backward and around the corners.
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Something neat with hub motors is you could turn the
> wheels all the
> way sideways and do a U turn in the vehicle's
> length.
>
> --- richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > ...
> > best bet is to drive the rear four wheels and
> steer
> > the front two
> > for this set up with hub motors you get the added
> > bonus of natural differential action ( you will
> still
> > have some tyre scrub but not as much)
> > ...
> > --- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > My wife and I were going through some old Mother
> > > Earth News and Popular
> > > Science magazines and we came across an old add
> for
> > > the Max IV. This is
> > > an amphibious 6 wheel drive gizmo powered by a
> small
> > > gasoline engine.
> > >
> > > I've always thought they were neat and got to
> > > thinking about "Hey, that
> > > would be a neat EV". Now I have no intention of
> > > converting one to
> > > electric, those things are EXPENSIVE but I got
> to
> > > thinking about
> > > building a little 6wheel go cart/street runner.
> > >
> > > As a thought exercise I said Ok, lets say it has
> six
> > > small hub motors
> > > like they sell here:
> > >
> > > http://goldenmotor.com/
> > >
> > > They have a 12" 400 watt motor that would be
> > > perfect.
> > >
> > > So we have six of these Now in theory, the front
> two
> > > wheels COULD be
> > > turned like a conventional go cart/car, but I
> got to
> > > thinking about
> > > tanks and how they are so maneuverable.
> > >
> > > How would you do that?
> > >
> > > I know I would need a motor controller for each
> side
> > > of the vehicle. All
> > > of the motors on each side would be wired
> parallel
> > > (switching series
> > > parallel would be nice but I can't see how to do
> it
> > > with six).
> > >
> > > So that is two motor controllers, but how does
> one
> > > convert information
> > > from a joystick (or any other control for that
> > > matter) to the apropriate
> > > command on the wheels?
> > >
> > > The MAX has two handles one left, one right, and
> > > each one makes the
> > > wheels of that side go either forward, still, or
> > > reverse.
> > >
> > > Could something lieke that work?
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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--- End Message ---
