EV Digest 4070
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) SCR Was: Zombie Dyno Time
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiZn source, stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NiZn source
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions, EVs on Dynos
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: SCR Was: Zombie Dyno Time
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) FI gets hybrid tech,Toyota>Li-ions,GM>20%,consumer gets LARGE hybrids
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EVLN(The Power of Enthusiasts, Prius EV mode button)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
be careful with the caster wheel design.
I am. I rode a rear steer tadpole about 250 miles last
month. it was not electrified and it was a bit
squirley when going down hill at 40 mph but other than
that it was a joy. I am modifying this basic design
and hope to have an electrically powered one this
summer. but my goal is to go only 20 mph max. of
coarse i want to have the capability to do this up
hill as well as down and on level ground. since it
uses a pair of joysticks to controll it there is none
of the difficult entry and exit problem.
I like your trike what happened to it?
I've never
> tried one, but I've
> read that they can be very unstable at speed. Among
> other potential
> problems, if you aren't careful with your design, it
> can end up moving
> your center of ballance outward when cornering,
> which is exactly the
> opposite of what you want to happen.
>
> I did quite a lot of drawings/CAD work on my first
> trike and only a couple
> mockups. I ended up with a trike that was
> functional and comfortable to
> sit on, but cumbersom to mount/dismount even without
> the fairing on. Once
> I started to add a fairing, it became obvious that
> I'd need to be a
> contortionist.
>
> The main problem was my handlebars. I was using a
> tall "T" type arrangement.
> Here is a link to a picture of the trike near
> completion:
> http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_trike.jpg
>
> You can see the handlebars a bit better in this
> photo of just the frame:
> http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_frame.jpg
>
> The problems with the T handle design:
> A) it needed to be high enough and far enough back
> to avoid hitting it
> with my legs while pedalling.
> B) needed to be low enough that I could see over it.
> C) needed to be far enough forward that it didn't
> hit my chest.
>
> This leaves a pretty small region where the
> handlebars could be located.
> Mounting the trike from the side was a bit awkward,
> but doable, however
> trying to mount from above (i.e. like climbing into
> the cockpit of a
> fighter jet) was really a pain. Trying to do it
> with a fairing on,
> without standing on the fairing, was ..well, let's
> just say I gave up on
> the idea.
>
> One possible solution is to move the handlebars up
> and forward, so they
> end up over your knees. I didn't like this because
> either you end up
> blocking your vision or moving your head up to see
> over. Neither option
> was acceptable to me.
>
> So, even though it tend to make your frontal area
> larger, I've decided to
> go with something like Under Seat Steering (USS)
> instead of Above Seat
> Steering (ASS) (don't blame me, I don't make these
> acronyms up)
>
> Anyway, the point (that I'm getting to in a round
> about way) is that I
> think mockups (even if they are made of cardboard
> and bailing wire) are
> more important than drawings/CAD. It's really hard
> to model ergonomics on
> a computer unless you have some really expensive
> software and a lot of
> training.
>
> FWIW, it takes roughly 200 watts to propell the
> average person, on a
> standard bicycle, over flat terrain, at 20 mph.
>
> A rough calculation on how much power it would
> require to move a 200lb
> vehicle with a 165lb rider (average weight) up a 5%
> incline, comes out to
> right at 1kw of input power.
>
> So it sounds like you've got a good design so far.
>
> > snip
> > 25-35 mph.
> > I was thinking 20mph max speed
> >
> >
> > Fancy that: I too am working on a tadpole opposite
> > configutation though-- two driven side wheels and
> a
> > caster rear wheel (robot stearing) very low to
> the
> > ground- full faring--possibly some solar panels-
> > whole thing to weigh less than 200lbs 36/48v
> > 2-500watt motors li-ion/caps
> >
> > do you have any drawings/engineering calks as to
> > performance/computer inerface ideas etc
> >
> >
> >> will be a tadpole
> >> design (single front wheel) with electrically
> driven
> >> rear wheels and
> >> steering similar to the flevo bike. This would
> >> allow me to pedal-drive
> >> the front wheel and avoid the long chain to the
> rear
> >> that most recumbents
> >> have as well as avoiding the twisting chain
> setups
> >> that most front wheel
> >> drive recumbents have.
> >>
> >> Now all I have to do is figure out a simple,
> >> efficient, and light weight
> >> method of connecting and disconnecting the pedals
> >> front the front wheel.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced
> search.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> >
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you'll be playing with a new SCR soon!?
Anyway, I've been curious to ask you how quickly you expect
to be able to cycle the new "BIG SCR" contactor replacement?
Obviousely these things can probably turn on and off very rapidly
but I'm curious what the delay is with your particular setup?
As I understand it turning it on is simple, but turning it off
requires momentarily applying a higher voltage than that flowing
through the device. So I guess it comes down to how quickly you
can recharge the "disenguage cap" after it's zapped the SCR off.
While I'm here, how many 'poles' and 'throws' does the SRC setup have?
I'm thinking that it's a single pole single throw (on/off) type device.
I'm trying to picture how you do a series/parallel switch with a
single throw, much less a single pole. As I understand it this
type of battery or motor series/parallel mode switch requires a
double pole double throw relay or contactor.
Anyway, it seems to me that this kind of device would be great to
intigrate into a contactor controller setup for disconnecting the load.
L8r
Ryan
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Until I get the 'button' to where it works reliably and is repeatable with no
welded
contactors, strapping it to a dyno is a bad idea. I want to just see what it
will make on
the dyno, just as bad as everyone wants me to, but I don't want to be haphazard
about it or
endanger anyone. The car reacts pretty violently on the track, breaking
traction at 60-70 mph
on a sticky race track when, as Rich Rudman says, I jump to hyper speed. I need
to be able to
test the car safely and be able to turn on and off the parallel mode reliably.
I'm hoping to
get the BIG SCR working to where I can do this. I also need to remount the
motors to finally
get rid of the nagging vibration problem so that test can be done without worry
of things
flying apart, and those plans were put into motion today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" >
> Even if the source has them, they aren't garunteed to have
> any reliability. These aren't the original Evertrolls,
> correct?
> Hi Victor an' All;
> Assuming the source is correct, and MB80s are all they
> have(They may have others), it is interesting to think of
> the EV concepts that can be made. John Pullen's Accord got
> 120 miles per charge freeway to 100% DoD, did 0-60 in 14
> seconds, and topped 100 MPH with a set of 22 of the 85 amp
> hour Evercels.
> EVerybody speaks of this car and Sheer in the past tense. Sigh! Sheer?
Got yur ears on? Been real quiet on your part. Car still in service, EVen if
Evercell is Nevercell, now? Hard to believe that such a promising battery
should fade away. As Tony Ascrizzi used to say" Tell me about your new
hotshot battery a few years from now" Or how many miles did it go before ya
needed expensive replacments. A T 105 dies you just throw it away with a
fond " Oh well" Or SkillSaw it open , look inside to see if you can figure
out WHY it died, and save the red box for laying out battery boxes, or stand
it on end for a small desk paper file. AFTER ya rinse it out<g> Stackable,
too!!Or just schleppe it to the recycle for a buck or so, and THEY unload
them from the truck!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got an email regarding the batteries back.
"The Oxygen Cargo MB80 is also the Evercel battery that powers the unit. Yes,
we will be stocking the Evercel MB50 and MB80 batteries in early March. I will
email pricing once we receive the invoices."
They are selling a scooter with the MB80's but they will soon carry the
batteries too. They said they already received and sold a shipment of the
scooters and quoted me a price of around $5,500 for the cargo scooter.
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" >
> Even if the source has them, they aren't garunteed to have
> any reliability. These aren't the original Evertrolls,
> correct?
> Hi Victor an' All;
> Assuming the source is correct, and MB80s are all they
> have(They may have others), it is interesting to think of
> the EV concepts that can be made. John Pullen's Accord got
> 120 miles per charge freeway to 100% DoD, did 0-60 in 14
> seconds, and topped 100 MPH with a set of 22 of the 85 amp
> hour Evercels.
> EVerybody speaks of this car and Sheer in the past tense. Sigh! Sheer?
Got yur ears on? Been real quiet on your part. Car still in service, EVen if
Evercell is Nevercell, now? Hard to believe that such a promising battery
should fade away. As Tony Ascrizzi used to say" Tell me about your new
hotshot battery a few years from now" Or how many miles did it go before ya
needed expensive replacments. A T 105 dies you just throw it away with a
fond " Oh well" Or SkillSaw it open , look inside to see if you can figure
out WHY it died, and save the red box for laying out battery boxes, or stand
it on end for a small desk paper file. AFTER ya rinse it out Stackable,
too!!Or just schleppe it to the recycle for a buck or so, and THEY unload
them from the truck!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> NO public comment!!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > >needs to get
> > >going on his monster motor.
> >
> > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> >
> Hi EVerybody;
I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!? He
has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts out,
light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the fine
old RR tradition.
I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he gets his
control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like '71 or
so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before, when
we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy loaded
down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing that
kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so it
couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but staying
in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to fairly
measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it down.
The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is made
for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just dive in
on the dyno, just yet.
John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong tydown
chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
Yes, bring a camcorder, and point it at the dash so it can see a stop
watch, and as many gauges as possible. battery volts/amps, and motor
volts/amps, we could learn quite a bit with this data!
> John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong tydown
> chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and all,
Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric Fuel
Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it up to
about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dymo.
The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commutator poles. The motor tag
rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249 point
something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell. Specific
Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
On the Dymo at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175 volts
or 52,500 watts.
Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the battery
amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of the
battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the way a
Zilla is now connected to this motor.
So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about 70
HP.
But the Dymo read 45 HP!
Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
settings from mild to violent.
At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a semi
truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any speed,
the current limits shut it down.
We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a voltage sag
to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
But the Dymo just show over 85 HP.
The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI, 8-ply
tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it was a
violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying the
cars that was park in front and back of me.
The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of which
I had to replace 10 years later.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > NO public comment!!!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > >needs to get
> > > >going on his monster motor.
> > >
> > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > >
> > Hi EVerybody;
>
> I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!? He
> has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts out,
> light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the
> fine
> old RR tradition.
>
> I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he gets
> his
> control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like '71
> or
> so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before, when
> we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy loaded
> down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing that
> kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so it
> couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but staying
> in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to fairly
> measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it down.
> The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is
> made
> for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just dive
> in
> on the dyno, just yet.
>
> John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong tydown
> chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For your steering, why not try a steering wheel, tose they use on RACE cars,
you can just dislodge it to get in and out.
To connect and disconnect the motor drive from your pedals, try a
centrifugal dry clutch, like the mopeds have, this little gizmo revs up, and
some brake shoes are on the inside, fixed to the motor axle held by springs,
when revs up to 1000, the springs stretch due to centrifugal force, and the
brake linings stick to the external drum, this will give you a complete
disconnect when the motor is not spinning, and a soft connection to start
(useful if you don't have a controller) this type of centrifugal clutch can
be found in piaggio 50cc motorcycles, (called vespino).(piaggio spain)
Ivbo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de keith vansickle
Enviado el: miιrcoles, 02 de febrero de 2005 1:24
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
be careful with the caster wheel design.
I am. I rode a rear steer tadpole about 250 miles last
month. it was not electrified and it was a bit
squirley when going down hill at 40 mph but other than
that it was a joy. I am modifying this basic design
and hope to have an electrically powered one this
summer. but my goal is to go only 20 mph max. of
coarse i want to have the capability to do this up
hill as well as down and on level ground. since it
uses a pair of joysticks to controll it there is none
of the difficult entry and exit problem.
I like your trike what happened to it?
I've never
> tried one, but I've
> read that they can be very unstable at speed. Among
> other potential
> problems, if you aren't careful with your design, it
> can end up moving
> your center of ballance outward when cornering,
> which is exactly the
> opposite of what you want to happen.
>
> I did quite a lot of drawings/CAD work on my first
> trike and only a couple
> mockups. I ended up with a trike that was
> functional and comfortable to
> sit on, but cumbersom to mount/dismount even without
> the fairing on. Once
> I started to add a fairing, it became obvious that
> I'd need to be a
> contortionist.
>
> The main problem was my handlebars. I was using a
> tall "T" type arrangement.
> Here is a link to a picture of the trike near
> completion:
> http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_trike.jpg
>
> You can see the handlebars a bit better in this
> photo of just the frame:
> http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/ebike/heh/p_frame.jpg
>
> The problems with the T handle design:
> A) it needed to be high enough and far enough back
> to avoid hitting it
> with my legs while pedalling.
> B) needed to be low enough that I could see over it.
> C) needed to be far enough forward that it didn't
> hit my chest.
>
> This leaves a pretty small region where the
> handlebars could be located.
> Mounting the trike from the side was a bit awkward,
> but doable, however
> trying to mount from above (i.e. like climbing into
> the cockpit of a
> fighter jet) was really a pain. Trying to do it
> with a fairing on,
> without standing on the fairing, was ..well, let's
> just say I gave up on
> the idea.
>
> One possible solution is to move the handlebars up
> and forward, so they
> end up over your knees. I didn't like this because
> either you end up
> blocking your vision or moving your head up to see
> over. Neither option
> was acceptable to me.
>
> So, even though it tend to make your frontal area
> larger, I've decided to
> go with something like Under Seat Steering (USS)
> instead of Above Seat
> Steering (ASS) (don't blame me, I don't make these
> acronyms up)
>
> Anyway, the point (that I'm getting to in a round
> about way) is that I
> think mockups (even if they are made of cardboard
> and bailing wire) are
> more important than drawings/CAD. It's really hard
> to model ergonomics on
> a computer unless you have some really expensive
> software and a lot of
> training.
>
> FWIW, it takes roughly 200 watts to propell the
> average person, on a
> standard bicycle, over flat terrain, at 20 mph.
>
> A rough calculation on how much power it would
> require to move a 200lb
> vehicle with a 165lb rider (average weight) up a 5%
> incline, comes out to
> right at 1kw of input power.
>
> So it sounds like you've got a good design so far.
>
> > snip
> > 25-35 mph.
> > I was thinking 20mph max speed
> >
> >
> > Fancy that: I too am working on a tadpole opposite
> > configutation though-- two driven side wheels and
> a
> > caster rear wheel (robot stearing) very low to
> the
> > ground- full faring--possibly some solar panels-
> > whole thing to weigh less than 200lbs 36/48v
> > 2-500watt motors li-ion/caps
> >
> > do you have any drawings/engineering calks as to
> > performance/computer inerface ideas etc
> >
> >
> >> will be a tadpole
> >> design (single front wheel) with electrically
> driven
> >> rear wheels and
> >> steering similar to the flevo bike. This would
> >> allow me to pedal-drive
> >> the front wheel and avoid the long chain to the
> rear
> >> that most recumbents
> >> have as well as avoiding the twisting chain
> setups
> >> that most front wheel
> >> drive recumbents have.
> >>
> >> Now all I have to do is figure out a simple,
> >> efficient, and light weight
> >> method of connecting and disconnecting the pedals
> >> front the front wheel.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced
> search.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> >
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> For your steering, why not try a steering wheel, tose they use on RACE
> cars,
> you can just dislodge it to get in and out.
>
Unless the wheel is tiny, there is not enough room between your knees and
your chest when pedaling. Having a removeable handlebar would probably
work, but causes other problems because all of your controls are mounted
on the handle bar. Besides then you would be trying to sit down with a
shaft, coming up from the front of the seat, ready to jab you.
Removing the shaft is an option, but it's easier to just make the shaft
tip forward (also solves the problems with the controls).
This still leaves you with the handle bars tucked between your knees and
chest, which I found akward. I've pretty much decided that I'm willing to
accept the wider frontal area caused by having your hands down at your
sides, just for the increased comfort and simplicity.
Besides the flevo bike type steering pretty much requires this.
For those of you that are unfamiliar with the flevo bike, it steers by
using a pivot point in the frame just behind and below the rider.
One of the advantages to this type of arrangement on a trike is that the
rider, and front wheel, leans into the corner.
> To connect and disconnect the motor drive from your pedals, try a
> centrifugal dry clutch, like the mopeds have, this little gizmo revs up,
> and
Won't do what I want.
I don't need a clutch to connect the motor to the wheels, I'm currently
planning on using hub motors so they are already connected, I want to be
able to connect and disconnect the pedals from the wheel.
I still want to be able to pedal the generator while stopped, kind of hard
to do with a centrifugual clutch trying to grab the wheel and get you
going.
What I need is some way to connect the pedals to the wheel, but only on
command. My current thought is to have the chainring at the cranks be
able to slide back and forth on the axle and engage dogs on the crank arm
when slid out, otherwise it just spins freely on the axle. Sort of like
the gears in a manual transmission.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think John knows about anything But Violent settings!!!
The dyno ....Roland.... short for Dynomometer...
Clearly shows that Watts into a motor and force out are not perfect!!!
And in a Brushed DC motor... they are quite a bit different.
You have all your losses in the picture, as well as a %45 loss
Wow...
%45 loss on the first pull and %47 loss on the second.
This is about what I am predicting on Series wound DC machines...
It should get a LOT worse when we go over 1000 amps, and be obsene at over
1750 amps...
but Fun!
Alot of these losses can be reduced with just a minor amount of motor
improvements.
In most of our cases... it's not improvements that matter it's basic Motor
sevice....Good Bearings?, full brush contact? Brushes set for planed service
applications??? All the copper properley torqued and cleaned????
I think I am going to have a shop full of U of Washington Students this
weekend... they want to play with my dyno. Maybe I will get them to help set
it up and pull some real data? This could really help in the BS reduction
Factor......
I have not had the time... but... with many hands, and bright minds....there
are possibilities...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric Fuel
> Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it up
to
> about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dymo.
>
> The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commutator poles. The motor tag
> rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
>
> The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
>
> The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
>
> The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249 point
> something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell.
Specific
> Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
>
> After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
>
> On the Dymo at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175 volts
> or 52,500 watts.
> Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the
battery
> amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of the
> battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the way
a
> Zilla is now connected to this motor.
>
> So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about 70
> HP.
>
> But the Dymo read 45 HP!
>
> Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
> Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
> settings from mild to violent.
>
> At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a semi
> truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any
speed,
> the current limits shut it down.
>
> We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a voltage
sag
> to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
>
> But the Dymo just show over 85 HP.
>
> The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI,
8-ply
> tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
>
> They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
>
> I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it was a
> violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying the
> cars that was park in front and back of me.
>
> The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of
which
> I had to replace 10 years later.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > > NO public comment!!!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > > >needs to get
> > > > >going on his monster motor.
> > > >
> > > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > > >
> > > Hi EVerybody;
> >
> > I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!?
He
> > has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts
out,
> > light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the
> > fine
> > old RR tradition.
> >
> > I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he gets
> > his
> > control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like '71
> > or
> > so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before,
when
> > we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> > Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy
loaded
> > down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing
that
> > kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so it
> > couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but
staying
> > in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to
fairly
> > measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it
down.
> > The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is
> > made
> > for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just dive
> > in
> > on the dyno, just yet.
> >
> > John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong
tydown
> > chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First point is ...he blew up the SCR.
It's a couple hundred dollar device.
He's going to have to really ask nicely of MY vendors.....
The Scr can be fired in the low Kilohertz range...If the support SCR and
commutating circuit work right.
If was never intended to be run in the PWM mode, just that John wants a
silicon knief switch. toggle on, seconds later toggle off.
Clearly the Series Parallel is done with a set of Albrights, and is locked
home before the Big amps get thrown at it.
Also the Zillia is taken out of the circuit for it's own protection.
I think John should sweat talk Otmar into a 2000 amp Zilla, and stay with no
Killer Bypass. He is throwing more power at the motors that he can barley
handle.. So... it's going to hurt things.
Hurting things keep race cars on jack stands, and out of the bracket races.
Reliable....may be a bit slower... but it's racing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: SCR Was: Zombie Dyno Time
> Sounds like you'll be playing with a new SCR soon!?
>
> Anyway, I've been curious to ask you how quickly you expect
> to be able to cycle the new "BIG SCR" contactor replacement?
>
> Obviousely these things can probably turn on and off very rapidly
> but I'm curious what the delay is with your particular setup?
>
> As I understand it turning it on is simple, but turning it off
> requires momentarily applying a higher voltage than that flowing
> through the device. So I guess it comes down to how quickly you
> can recharge the "disenguage cap" after it's zapped the SCR off.
>
> While I'm here, how many 'poles' and 'throws' does the SRC setup have?
> I'm thinking that it's a single pole single throw (on/off) type device.
>
> I'm trying to picture how you do a series/parallel switch with a
> single throw, much less a single pole. As I understand it this
> type of battery or motor series/parallel mode switch requires a
> double pole double throw relay or contactor.
>
> Anyway, it seems to me that this kind of device would be great to
> intigrate into a contactor controller setup for disconnecting the load.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> John Wayland wrote:
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Until I get the 'button' to where it works reliably and is repeatable
with no welded
> > contactors, strapping it to a dyno is a bad idea. I want to just see
what it will make on
> > the dyno, just as bad as everyone wants me to, but I don't want to be
haphazard about it or
> > endanger anyone. The car reacts pretty violently on the track, breaking
traction at 60-70 mph
> > on a sticky race track when, as Rich Rudman says, I jump to hyper speed.
I need to be able to
> > test the car safely and be able to turn on and off the parallel mode
reliably. I'm hoping to
> > get the BIG SCR working to where I can do this. I also need to remount
the motors to finally
> > get rid of the nagging vibration problem so that test can be done
without worry of things
> > flying apart, and those plans were put into motion today.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I intend to be there.
I know what you mean we almost had a Turbo 3 liter Sand rail try for the
back room!! We were using 3 inch tie downs and neglected the 24 inch rear
suspension travel... it torqued off the rollers.
We go it shut down, and added trianglulated tied down points.
The Dyno cell has tie down hard points in the Dozzens scattered around
the rollers. When we Did the Boosted F150 Harley Davidsons, we went to 4
inch tie downs. The Turbo Diesel tow rigs we doubled up the 4 inch tie
downs.... 650 to 750 Ft lbs on the engine... is a few thousand on the
rollers. Also bring a spare set of tires.. the rollers eat up spendy rubber.
With us torque Monsters.... Wide and sticky, and arainge the tiedowns such
that you can load up your drive wheels with the tie down cammed ratchets. A
couple of the trucks got tire spin at 80+ mph. Mind boggling!!
John's setup with the Killer By pass will be very impressive But I doubt the
dyno onwers will let him uncork that much snort with out some kind of
finacial risk sharing agreement.
Knowing what I do about how the motor and chassis react to the bypass, I
would not let him near the dyno... until he gets the darn controller back in
line with the controller governed switch.
And John you need to think this over really hard..... If the dyno
operator has the controls set to lock in a RPM and read a max torque It
could hold your motors in that nasty 2500 to 3000 amp mode for many
seconds...This is where you are going to break things, as well as possibly
loose control. You have never had to open the KB at full amps, at like 3000
rpm and really heavliy loaded. This is where the big amps live.. and your
shut down has always been at very high Rpms where the amps are 1/3 what they
are at the peak amps mode. Opening and then killing the arcs is going to be
a LOT harder.
It's going take some serious talking and programming the Dyno to absord
and record the nasty transients. I know the Guys on the dynos can program
load curves and RPM limiters, and ramp rates. We need to plan what is going
to happen, and then sneak up on it....
I will Gladly show up with my Z2K and a series/Parallel contactor
setup, Just so we can have some control at the 2000 amp mark. But Plasma Boy
Does NOT get my 2K and the Killer Bypass.
One or the other.... Not both.
Have no fear I will personally double tie down the White Zombie... And scare
the Crap out of the Dyno Guys with stories about 1000 Ftlbs on the drive
shaft. One of the places had a 1200 Hp Turbo Supra... I do think they can
take a lowly 300 to 400 hp...
Doing a locked into series mode, and a Full 1400 amps... and holding at the
lowest RPM that you can still hump 1400 amps through both motors, should be
one of our first tests. Since it would be the ( er should BE!) the highest
torque point, This gets us the Torque Monster bragging data point with the
least amount of battery abuse and least motor speeds. If they can't hold the
tires on thr rollers at this point, doing the Killer Bypass test at 60 +mph
would be useless... and dangerous. I think some of Joe's notes show that
this will be about 36 Mph.
Here is a very serious requirement for any EVs on the Dyno... make sure you
can give the operator a clean accurate Tach pulse... Beacuase they can't do
HP unless they have both RPM and torque. We spent a lot of time getting tach
signals to the Dyno equipment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > NO public comment!!!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > >needs to get
> > > >going on his monster motor.
> > >
> > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > >
> > Hi EVerybody;
>
> I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!? He
> has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts out,
> light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the
fine
> old RR tradition.
>
> I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he gets
his
> control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like '71
or
> so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before, when
> we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy loaded
> down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing that
> kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so it
> couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but staying
> in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to fairly
> measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it down.
> The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is
made
> for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just dive
in
> on the dyno, just yet.
>
> John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong tydown
> chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I like your trike what happened to it?
It's sitting in the garage. I used some wheels from a slightly rare moped
(and old Indian) and it needs new brake shoes. Unfortunately they are a
non standard size and I can't find anyone that carries them.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FI gets hybrid tech,Toyota>Li-ions,GM>20%,consumer gets LARGE
hybrids
EVLN(FI gets hybrid tech>Toyota gets Li-ions>GM gets 20%>consumer
gets LARGE hybrids)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/130381/1/.html
Business News » Posted: 02 February 2005 1029 hrs
Toyota to provide Subaru car maker with hybrid vehicle
technology
TOKYO : Japan's top automaker Toyota Motor will provide
hybrid-vehicle technology to Subaru-brand carmaker Fuji Heavy
Industries, helping it exploit the key North American market, a
report said.
Toyota plans to supply its hybrid power system to Fuji Heavy,
which will use it to make hybrids a mainline product in the North
American market, which accounts for 35 percent of its group
sales, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun said.
Fuji Heavy on its part is considering supplying Toyota technology
with lithium-ion batteries it has developed with electronics
maker NEC for use in hybrid vehicles, the economic daily said
without citing sources.
Working-level talks on the technical cooperation have already
been taking place, with Toyota president Cho Fujio and his Fuji
Heavy counterpart Kyoji Takenaka set to enter negotiation soon,
it said.
No immediate comment on the report was available from Toyota.
Hybrids run on either its gasoline engine or on its electric
motor depending on driving conditions, making them much more
economical and environmentally-friendly than conventional
gasoline engines.
Toyota has pioneered the use of green technologies with its
Prius, the world's first mass-produced hybrid car.
US auto giant General Motors, the top shareholder in Fuji Heavy
with a 20 percent stake, has formed a partnership with German-US
DaimlerChrysler to jointly develop hybrid vehicle technology.
But the Nihon Keizai said that the alliance was likely to focus
on technology for use in large vehicles rather than vehicles with
engine displacements of around three liters, Fuji Heavy's
strength. - AFP Agence France Presse. All rights reserved.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(The Power of Enthusiasts, Prius EV mode button)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Hybrid/story?id=445794
Hybrids Spark Interest in Rechargeable Cars
Advocates Push for More Electric-Powered Vehicles
Renault Kangoo (AP Graphics) [image of a Kangoo EV
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Technology/apgb_renault_050131_t.jpg
] By MARK CLAYTON
Feb. 1, 2005 Not long after Dan Kroushl got his new 2004 Toyota
Prius, he began to wonder about the mysterious button on the
dash. It didn't seem to have any function. Didn't boost the turbo
or engage an ejector seat. In online discussions with other Prius
enthusiasts, Kroushl soon discovered the button did have a hidden
function: It could turn the gasoline-electric hybrid into an
all-electric car for a mile or so on limited battery power.
This "stealth mode" button works fine in Japan and Europe where
it's handy for drivers to roll politely about densely packed
subdivisions in the early morning and late evening. But the
button has been disconnected for North America's Priuses.
Now, scores of Prius owners in the United States are activating
the button on their own despite company warnings that altering
the car will void its warranty.
Some drivers, including Kroushl, are going even further: adding
battery capacity and a plug. The hoped for result: a high-tech
commuting car that plugs into a socket at night and gets amazing
gas mileage the next day.
In effect, these backyard mechanics have turned the hybrid car's
appeal on its head. Instead of emphasizing gasoline over electric
power and the convenience of today's cars, they're aiming to
create less polluting higher-mileage vehicles that emphasize
electricity over gasoline even if it's a bit less convenient.
"One guy I know plugs his Honda hybrid into a windmill for
power," Kroushl says. "It costs him practically nothing to
drive."
The Power of Enthusiasts
Since before the Model T, electric cars have been among the most
efficient modes of transportation. They made a bit of a comeback
in the mid-1990s, when General Motors and other automakers
reintroduced electric-only cars to meet a proposed California
clean-air mandate. But with the weakening of that requirement,
which called for some vehicles to be zero-emission in 2003, GM,
Toyota and Honda stopped production of their electric vehicles.
Some automakers, which had leased the cars, began taking them
back to be destroyed.
Only the dedication of enthusiasts has kept them from
disappearing completely. This past summer, after Ford Motor Co.
announced it would scrap its electric Think vehicles,
environmental groups occupied the roof of the company's Norwegian
offices and held a mock funeral at a San Francisco dealer. Within
two weeks, Ford agreed instead to ship its vehicles to a
Norwegian electric-car manufacturer. Just last week, Ford also
reluctantly agreed to let Dave Bernikoff-Raboy, a California
rancher, buy the all-electric pickup truck he had been leasing.
He was so devoted to the vehicle, which recharged off a solar
panel, that he camped out near a Ford dealership in Sacramento,
Calif., to protest that automaker's plans to dispose of its
remaining electric fleet.
Now, a growing interest in hybrids has rekindled the hopes of the
electricity-firsters. Global demand for hybrids is estimated to
rise from about 200,000 units produced annually to more than 1
million vehicles a year by 2010, according to ABI Research, an
international market-research firm, in a report last year. If
only 1 percent of these were converted to run primarily on
electricity, it would create a base of more than 30,000 vehicles
by the end of the decade.
"We're not talking about electric vehicles, but about plug-in
hybrid vehicles that can be topped off with electricity for short
trips," James Woolsey, former director of the Central
Intelligence Agency, said last month during the unveiling of a
report by the 16-member National Commission on Energy Policy.
"The potential in terms of national policy, and in terms of
global warming, ought to be focused on by anyone" concerned about
terrorism or "paying over $2 a gallon."
Other experts are also urging automakers to take a new look.
"We think the transportation fuel sector should be diversified by
utilizing more electricity as a fuel plug-in hybrids that can
get 100 miles per gallon and allow you to run on electricity
alone for 20 to 30 miles, then shift to the combustion engine,"
says Gal Luft, director of the Institute for the Analysis of
Global Security, an energy-security think tank in Washington.
But automakers show little interest.
"Why would anyone want to do that?" wonders Sam Butto, a Toyota
spokesman in Torrance, Calif., when told some Prius owners are
creating their own plug-in Priuses. "One of the great features of
the Prius is that you don't have to plug it in."
It is also unlikely Toyota would make a plug-in Prius though
"nothing is impossible," he hedges. The problems are many,
including a "much, much, much larger battery" needed to increase
range, which would add hundreds of pounds, says David Hermance, a
Toyota environmental engineer.
How Green Is That Plug-in?
Anyway, plug-in hybrids are not that green, Hermance argues. They
run on electricity that's often created by coal-fired power
plants. So, such a car would be only marginally better from an
environmental and economic perspective than a regular hybrid and
have limited appeal, he concludes. Case closed.
While Andrew Frank concedes that an electric car powered
indirectly by coal isn't much better for the environment, he
argues it is still more efficient transportation and it makes a
world of difference from the standpoint of energy security.
With engineering students at the University of California at
Davis, Frank has spent more than a decade turning production
vehicles into plug-in hybrids using off-the-shelf parts. "We just
built a high-performance plug-in hybrid Ford Explorer," he says.
"It's 325 horsepower 200 of that horsepower is electric and 125
is gasoline. This car goes like a rocket, but still gets double
the fuel economy of a regular hybrid. And for the first 50 miles
it is all electric zero emissions."
That's enough for many drivers to complete their daily commute.
Compared with conventional cars, the annual fuel consumption of
the modified cars "is only about 10 percent, because you're using
gas so infrequently," he says. "Our studies show [that] the
average person would only go to the gas station six times a year
compared with maybe 35 times a year."
Built on a stock Explorer platform, the hybrid retains all its
original interior space. There is also more space in the engine
compartment because the vehicle lacks moving parts like a fan
belt, generator, water pump and even a transmission. Because it
has fewer than one-fifth the number of moving parts of a
conventional SUV, the hybrid's weight, even with a heavier
battery, stays the same. Assembly is simpler and reliability,
better. In production, it might cost $40,000 or less, he says.
A Nibble From Toyota
Despite repeated presentations to the Big Three automakers in
Detroit, Frank has received little interest from them. But last
year, Toyota flew his Explorer to its research facilities in
Japan so engineers could pore over the vehicle. "There's no
question in my mind that Toyota has plans for a plug-in hybrid
right now, but they aren't talking about it," he says.
Certainly, plug-in hybrids are for real. DaimlerChrysler is
reportedly near delivery of the first batch of what is expected
to be as many as 100 Sprinter delivery vans that permit travel of
up to 20 miles on electricity alone. This will come in handy in
car-clogged European cities currently considering bans or other
limits on gas- and diesel-powered delivery vehicles.
AC Propulsion had demonstrated a converted VW Jetta with a
plug-in hybrid electric vehicle system. Renault is offering its
Kangoo PHEV that can go 60 miles on a charge before switching
back to gas. Commuter Cars Corp. of Spokane, Wash., is offering a
low-volume electric car called the Tango for $85,000.
Meanwhile, a not-for-profit outfit called CalCars in San
Francisco is modifying two Priuses by adding more battery power
and a plug. The group has discovered an empty space under the
hatch near the current battery that looks almost as if Toyota
intended to do this itself one day. "We hope to get significantly
more miles per gallon with the additional battery power," says
Felix Kramer, the group's founder. "Our purpose is to show Toyota
that there is demand for this kind of vehicle."
Will Toyota or Detroit respond? Not without major
breakthroughs in technology, says Dan Bedore, a Ford spokesman.
"It's become pretty clear that our
non-plug-in hybrid system is
the direction we see the market going."
"The answer is they really don't want to do it," Frank says.
"We're just a bunch of students. If we can build this with
off-the-shelf technology, they can too and do things better
than what we do. If they really were interested in doing
something in the short term, they could do it."
www.csmonitor.com | Copyright © 2005 The Christian Science
Monitor. All rights reserved.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
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