EV Digest 4073
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Control question
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiFE cells, was Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Build your own ELECTRIC VEHICLE class. In San Francisco.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Life After Woodburn ( The Trilogy ) - Links into archive.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by D Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Solar trike (open-source project)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Source for GE motor brushes?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> I would appreciate it if the successful bidder would offer me a hundred or
> so cells at cost :-). I was going to bid, but I can't handle that
> quantity right now.
Call I-10 surplus in Tucson AZ. Last time I was there (over a year ago)
they had about a dozen pallets stacked 6-8 feet high full of surplus
aircraft NiCads (they come from the planes/jets/'copters etc in the bone
yard)
They sell them pretty cheap and will pack them up and ship them. They
have tons (literally) of the 20 AH size and I believe some of the 34 and
maybe 40 AH left.
I think I paid something like $2 - $2.50 a cell. They came in nice
stainless steel battery boxes with 19-20 cells each plus nickle plated
interconnects and he threw in 20 cells for free because he figures some of
the ones I bought would be bad. I paid for 230 cells (12 batteries
actually).
I- 10 Surplus
5300 N. Casa Grande Hwy. Tucson AZ. 85743
Phone (520) 293-2930 FAX(520) 293-0567
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Getting info together. Would you be interested in driving down with me
to pick up? I'm probably going to need help.
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris, I was just gonna propose the same to you.
Count me in.
Mad Mike Shipway
Baltimore county, MD
21207
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2005 07:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: More military NiCads up for auction
32,096 pounds of aircraft NiCad cells.
Ok, time to put money where mouth is. I'd be interested in bidding on
this, getting a truck down there, and picking the darn things up. I even
have a hand pallet jack and live in MD (could rent a truck with a gate).
Heck I could pack my E20 in the truck and use it to tow the pallets
around if needed.
*BUT* There is no way in heck that I can handle that many batteries. My
wife would cry, my neighbors would be impressed, and I don't need that much.
So who wants to go in on this with me. Each person commits to bidding
$500 for this lot, if the final auction is less than $500*number of
people we refund the difference. In any case we also split the cost of
the truck evenly and you either fly out to pick up your share, or pay to
have it put into a U store.
Thoughts?
Chris
SAFT PN 017371-000
below is a small excerpt....
Characteristics Data for 6140-00-881-6887 Item Name: BATTERY,STORAGE
Requirement Statement Clear Text Reply
ITEM NAME BATTERY,STORAGE
TERMINAL QUANTITY 2
TERMINAL TYPE TAP-SCREW
OVERALL LENGTH 3.135 INCHES NOMINAL
TEMP RATING -22.0 DEG FAHRENHEIT
OVERALL HEIGHT 9.400 INCHES NOMINAL
OVERALL WIDTH 1.390 INCHES NOMINAL
SEPARATOR MATERIAL PLASTIC
CASE MATERIAL PLASTIC
BATTERY ELECTROLYTE ALKALINE
PORTABILITY METHOD ANY ACCEPTABLE
FORDING FEATURE NOT INCLUDED
SUBMERSIBILITY NONSUBMERSIBLE
AMPERE HOUR CAPACITY 34.00
TIME CAPACITY IN HOURS 2.00
DISCHARGE TIME IN MINUTES 1.0
LOW TEMP AMPERE HOUR 12.00
CAPACITY
CELL QUANTITY 1
PLATE MATERIAL NICKEL-IRON COBALT ALLOY
PLATE QUANTITY PER CELL 31
NONSPILLING FEATURE NOT INCLUDED
DISCHARGE RATE IN AMPS 772.00
CHARGE INDICATOR NOT INCLUDED
ELECTROLYTE LEVEL INDICATOR NOT INCLUDED
INTEGRAL CHARGING FACILITY NOT INCLUDED
PLATE TYPE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE
CASE DESIGN TYPE FILLING PLUG OPENINGS
VOLTAGE IN VOLTS 1.2
I would appreciate it if the successful bidder would offer me a hundred or
so cells at cost :-). I was going to bid, but I can't handle that
quantity right now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll make a tenative committment for that much. If anyone else in the
southeast is interested, we could get them using my truck. I have a
21,000 gvw 15ft cube van with a lift gate.
You need to research to discover what batteries have traditionally gone
for. If this is a seal bid auction (I didn't look) then you pay what you
bid even if you're the only bidder.
you also need to figure out how many batteries are involved and what the
split would be.
john
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:47:16 -0500, Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> 32,096 pounds of aircraft NiCad cells.
>
>Ok, time to put money where mouth is. I'd be interested in bidding on
>this, getting a truck down there, and picking the darn things up. I even
>have a hand pallet jack and live in MD (could rent a truck with a gate).
>Heck I could pack my E20 in the truck and use it to tow the pallets
>around if needed.
>
>*BUT* There is no way in heck that I can handle that many batteries. My
>wife would cry, my neighbors would be impressed, and I don't need that much.
>
>So who wants to go in on this with me. Each person commits to bidding
>$500 for this lot, if the final auction is less than $500*number of
>people we refund the difference. In any case we also split the cost of
>the truck evenly and you either fly out to pick up your share, or pay to
>have it put into a U store.
>
>Thoughts?
>Chris
>
>
>
>>
>> SAFT PN 017371-000
>>
>>
>> below is a small excerpt....
>>
>> Characteristics Data for 6140-00-881-6887 Item Name: BATTERY,STORAGE
>> Requirement Statement Clear Text Reply
>> ITEM NAME BATTERY,STORAGE
>> TERMINAL QUANTITY 2
>> TERMINAL TYPE TAP-SCREW
>> OVERALL LENGTH 3.135 INCHES NOMINAL
>> TEMP RATING -22.0 DEG FAHRENHEIT
>> OVERALL HEIGHT 9.400 INCHES NOMINAL
>> OVERALL WIDTH 1.390 INCHES NOMINAL
>> SEPARATOR MATERIAL PLASTIC
>> CASE MATERIAL PLASTIC
>> BATTERY ELECTROLYTE ALKALINE
>> PORTABILITY METHOD ANY ACCEPTABLE
>> FORDING FEATURE NOT INCLUDED
>> SUBMERSIBILITY NONSUBMERSIBLE
>> AMPERE HOUR CAPACITY 34.00
>> TIME CAPACITY IN HOURS 2.00
>> DISCHARGE TIME IN MINUTES 1.0
>> LOW TEMP AMPERE HOUR 12.00
>> CAPACITY
>> CELL QUANTITY 1
>> PLATE MATERIAL NICKEL-IRON COBALT ALLOY
>> PLATE QUANTITY PER CELL 31
>> NONSPILLING FEATURE NOT INCLUDED
>> DISCHARGE RATE IN AMPS 772.00
>> CHARGE INDICATOR NOT INCLUDED
>> ELECTROLYTE LEVEL INDICATOR NOT INCLUDED
>> INTEGRAL CHARGING FACILITY NOT INCLUDED
>> PLATE TYPE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE
>> CASE DESIGN TYPE FILLING PLUG OPENINGS
>> VOLTAGE IN VOLTS 1.2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would appreciate it if the successful bidder would offer me a hundred or
>> so cells at cost :-). I was going to bid, but I can't handle that
>> quantity right now.
>>
>>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe you are replying to Roland...
But I use Optima Yellow tops and Exide Orbitals in my street machines.
----- Original Message -----
From: "adam1tx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Rich,
>
> What brand of batteries are you using (before and after) ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:46 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > I don't think John knows about anything But Violent settings!!!
> > The dyno ....Roland.... short for Dynomometer...
> >
> OH, I left off the NO and went right to the MO.
>
> Also, when you reduce the Amp Hour rating and maximum charging rating of a
> battery, than don't you reduce the performance?
>
> I reduce the 300 amp pack at max charge to 250 volts on a 189 volt pack at
> 1.300 S.G. to 260 amp hour at a max charge to 232.5 at 1.275 S.G. on a 180
> volt pack.
>
> The float back voltage is now 189 volts and sags to 175 volts at only a
200
> battery amp. The batteries are rated at 800 amps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Clearly shows that Watts into a motor and force out are not perfect!!!
> > And in a Brushed DC motor... they are quite a bit different.
> >
> > You have all your losses in the picture, as well as a %45 loss
> > Wow...
> >
> > %45 loss on the first pull and %47 loss on the second.
> > This is about what I am predicting on Series wound DC machines...
> > It should get a LOT worse when we go over 1000 amps, and be obsene at
over
> > 1750 amps...
> > but Fun!
> >
> > Alot of these losses can be reduced with just a minor amount of motor
> > improvements.
> > In most of our cases... it's not improvements that matter it's basic
Motor
> > sevice....Good Bearings?, full brush contact? Brushes set for planed
> > service
> > applications??? All the copper properley torqued and cleaned????
> >
> > I think I am going to have a shop full of U of Washington Students this
> > weekend... they want to play with my dyno. Maybe I will get them to help
> > set
> > it up and pull some real data? This could really help in the BS
reduction
> > Factor......
> >
> > I have not had the time... but... with many hands, and bright
> > minds....there
> > are possibilities...
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > > Hi Bob and all,
> > >
> > > Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric
> > > Fuel
> > > Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it
up
> > to
> > > about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dymo.
> > >
> > > The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commutator poles. The motor
tag
> > > rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
> > >
> > > The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
> > >
> > > The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
> > >
> > > The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249
point
> > > something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell.
> > Specific
> > > Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
> > >
> > > After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
> > >
> > > On the Dymo at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175
> > > volts
> > > or 52,500 watts.
> > > Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the
> > battery
> > > amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of
> > > the
> > > battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the
> > > way
> > a
> > > Zilla is now connected to this motor.
> > >
> > > So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about
> > > 70
> > > HP.
> > >
> > > But the Dymo read 45 HP!
> > >
> > > Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
> > > Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
> > > settings from mild to violent.
> > >
> > > At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a
semi
> > > truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any
> > speed,
> > > the current limits shut it down.
> > >
> > > We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a
voltage
> > sag
> > > to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
> > >
> > > But the Dymo just show over 85 HP.
> > >
> > > The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI,
> > 8-ply
> > > tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
> > >
> > > They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
> > >
> > > I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it
was
> > > a
> > > violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying
the
> > > cars that was park in front and back of me.
> > >
> > > The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of
> > which
> > > I had to replace 10 years later.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > NO public comment!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > > > > >needs to get
> > > > > > >going on his monster motor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Hi EVerybody;
> > > >
> > > > I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya
want!?
> > He
> > > > has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts
> > out,
> > > > light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in
the
> > > > fine
> > > > old RR tradition.
> > > >
> > > > I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he
> > > > gets
> > > > his
> > > > control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like
> > > > '71
> > > > or
> > > > so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back
before,
> > when
> > > > we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> > > > Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy
> > loaded
> > > > down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing
> > that
> > > > kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up
so
> > > > it
> > > > couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but
> > staying
> > > > in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to
> > fairly
> > > > measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it
> > down.
> > > > The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that
is
> > > > made
> > > > for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just
> > > > dive
> > > > in
> > > > on the dyno, just yet.
> > > >
> > > > John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong
> > tydown
> > > > chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
> > > >
> > > > Seeya
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter...Peter Peter.....
because Horse power is torque times RPM.
They have NO idea what your drive line ratios are or for that matter your
exact tire height.
For a solid Hp number you need both.
The dynomometer can read the forces being made...and it's own RPM But not
your vehicles. Once you tie in your motor(Engine) RPM the software and
controls lock in.
On a normal Dyno... aka Engine only, you have the water brake slined to the
Engine crankshaft, so then Dyno input shaft and Engine shaft are the same.
One of the Biggest screw ups on the tow Rigs tested was the trannies Down
shifted when they were floored.. So they ran the speed up the point that the
drive trains did NOT down shift.
This led to some 100 mph tire speeds and the roller(it was about 4 ft in
diameter) was making some nasty hissing sounds at that surface speed.
This also kept the low speed torque number rather low.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> > Here is a very serious requirement for any EVs on the Dyno... make sure
> > you
> > can give the operator a clean accurate Tach pulse... Beacuase they can't
> > do
> > HP unless they have both RPM and torque. We spent a lot of time getting
> > tach
> > signals to the Dyno equipment.
>
>
> Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The solution is taking the low voltage signal form a optical or magnetic
pick up... the Input to a Raptor or a Zilla, and driving a Fet that is
hooked to a 12 supply.
In effect you recreate the 12 volt pulsed primary of a old point fired
ingnition.
pretty simple... If you have to... hook up a coil, they the Gas burrner
running the Dyno has a clue!.
The turbo Tech Guy, could do all the above...But had to change out the HV
trigger for the logic fired trigger when the Injected Fuel guys swapped with
the point customers.
I am just saying a little home work, and questions keeps a $50 dyno run from
being a waste of time. These guys asked for $50 buck for every pull. Very
quickly you want to have your Stuff together or just hand over the Ben
Franklins every time you do a Oops!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> >Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
> >
> >
> >
> As I understand it torque is calculated at the engine shaft (since you
> may shift gears on the dyno). Engine RPM relative to wheel RPM is used
> to calculate driveline ratios.
>
> Also note that many dynos will only have a HV pickup designed to go on a
> sparkplug wire. Some will have a LV pickup that goes over the power
> lead to the ignition coil. Neither will work well with the low current
> 12v tach signal used in our EVs.
>
> I've been trying to solve this problem for awhile.. and still have not
> found a good solution. If I had saved the ignition coil and module from
> the MR2 before conversion I could have used that to fire a sparkplug in
> time with the tach signal. I have an ignition module/coil from an 88
> Jeep Cherokee but it has 5 pins and I have no idea what the pinout is.
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
> Mark Farver
>
> >!DSPAM:420164999322136420805!
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do they check diesels?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
As I understand it torque is calculated at the engine shaft (since you
may shift gears on the dyno). Engine RPM relative to wheel RPM is used
to calculate driveline ratios.
Also note that many dynos will only have a HV pickup designed to go on a
sparkplug wire. Some will have a LV pickup that goes over the power
lead to the ignition coil. Neither will work well with the low current
12v tach signal used in our EVs.
I've been trying to solve this problem for awhile.. and still have not
found a good solution. If I had saved the ignition coil and module from
the MR2 before conversion I could have used that to fire a sparkplug in
time with the tach signal. I have an ignition module/coil from an 88
Jeep Cherokee but it has 5 pins and I have no idea what the pinout is.
Mark Farver
Mark Farver
!DSPAM:420164999322136420805!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must have missed some of this thread but since I
have some experience with differentioa control and
"castor" either front or rear. by steering the castor
and limiting the angle of rotation to less than 8
degrees from direction of travel when going fast say
above 30mph this type of vehicle can be stable. by
making the caster like the old fashioned tractor duel
front tires (two wheels sharing a single axel and 8 to
10 degrees of camber or is it caster??)
|
|
\-/
it becomes more stable but has more drag. havent
tried the hexapod wheels but sounds interesting
BTW lee
any thoughts on my alternator idea?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> richard ball wrote:
> > Good point, Steve. I have some concerns as you do
> about high speed
> > control...
>
> My BEST kids built a vehicle like this; left and
> right bike wheels,
> front and rear centered casters from a shopping
> cart. They switched the
> left/right motors on to steer. It was extremely
> maneuverable, but
> hopeless to get it to travel in a straight line on
> uneven terrain. They
> added a steering tiller to steer the rear caster.
>
> Another option is 4-wheel steering. To turn left,
> the front wheels turn
> left and the rear ones simultaneously turn right. It
> can be set up so
> the rear wheels follow the track of the front
> wheels, which is handy for
> tight maneuvering. Also, you can steer all 4 wheels
> left at the same
> time to crab sideways.
>
> Yet another option is to use the strange hexapod
> wheels. They've used
> them on robots, and some fork lifts. They are hard
> to visualize, and odd
> even with a picture to look at. Imagine two disks
> mounted on your axle,
> a short distance apart. Drill ~6 holes thru both
> around their rim.
> Connect these holes with ~6 little axles. Now you
> have a "rim" that
> looks a bit like a hamster wheel.
>
> Put a little tire on each of these axles. Now
> instead of one big tire,
> you have six little ones. These tires rotate freely
> on their shafts. Now
> if you rotate the main rim with a motor, the whole
> hexapod wheel turns,
> but you go nowhere because the little wheels just
> spin on their shafts
> as they touch the floor.
>
> But now... rotate one of the big disks, so its axles
> are skewed about
> 30-40 degrees. Hexapod wheels are used in pairs;
> skew the one on the
> opposite side of the vehicle the opposite way. NOW
> when you rotate the
> wheels, the vehicle moves! The left wheel may want
> to slip left, but the
> right one wants to slip right; they cancel and you
> move ahead straight.
> The tracks it leaves in soft dirt will look like
> that made by a farm
> tractor's tires, with their big diagonal lugs.
>
> Now... rotate the two wheels in opposite directions
> (one forward, one
> backward). Amazingly, the vehicle moves straight
> SIDEWAYS. You steer by
> controlling the differential speed between the
> left/right wheels. With 4
> powered hexapod wheels (2 front, 2 rear), the
> vehicle can move straight
> in any direction, including straight sideways, and
> turn in place, in
> its.
>
> A tracked vehicle can do all this, too. But, the
> hexapod wheels do it
> without scrubbing; without friction, with very low
> rolling resistance.
>
> Finally, you would think that hexapod wheels "bump"
> as they revolve. But
> by shaping the six small tires properly, they are
> still "round" and roll
> smoothly.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rich, Rich, Rich...
> because Horse power is torque times RPM.
> They have NO idea what your drive line ratios are or for that
> matter your exact tire height. For a solid Hp number you need
> both. The dynomometer can read the forces being made...and
> it's own RPM But not your vehicles. Once you tie in your
> motor(Engine) RPM the software and controls lock in.
Rear wheel HP is rear wheel HP, and happens to equal the roller HP.
The only reason for tracking engine RPM is to be able to compute the
driveline ratio so that they can convert the roller HP back to
crankshaft HP.
It may well be that their dyno loses its mind if it doesn't see a clean
engine RPM number, however, this is just poor design of the equipment
since it *must* measure roller RPM and torque anyway.
If it didn't measure roller RPM as well as engine RPM then it couldn't
determine the driveline ratio, which it must have in order to convert
the roller/rear wheel torque back to crankshaft torque as it is
crankshaft torque and RPM that yield crankshaft HP.
The dyno plots that I've seen from chassis dynos have always been
showing HP and torque at the rear wheels, i.e. are totally independent
of the engine RPM (e.g. the 482HP/910ft-lbs I reported for my buddy's
diesel truck are the *rear wheel* numbers from the dyno, not engine
values). It may be that the dyno's software is limited such that it has
to see a clean engine RPM signal to function at all, but an engine RPM
signal is certainly not required to compute rear wheel HP.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wanted to mention that Siemens inverters have programmable
tach output specifically for that purpose - to drive stock
tach, and, of course to be hooked up to external equipment
if you wish, like dyno. 12V pulse output.
So I'd have no problem with this in a dyno station...
Victor
Rich Rudman wrote:
The solution is taking the low voltage signal form a optical or magnetic
pick up... the Input to a Raptor or a Zilla, and driving a Fet that is
hooked to a 12 supply.
In effect you recreate the 12 volt pulsed primary of a old point fired
ingnition.
pretty simple... If you have to... hook up a coil, they the Gas burrner
running the Dyno has a clue!.
The turbo Tech Guy, could do all the above...But had to change out the HV
trigger for the logic fired trigger when the Injected Fuel guys swapped with
the point customers.
I am just saying a little home work, and questions keeps a $50 dyno run from
being a waste of time. These guys asked for $50 buck for every pull. Very
quickly you want to have your Stuff together or just hand over the Ben
Franklins every time you do a Oops!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
As I understand it torque is calculated at the engine shaft (since you
may shift gears on the dyno). Engine RPM relative to wheel RPM is used
to calculate driveline ratios.
Also note that many dynos will only have a HV pickup designed to go on a
sparkplug wire. Some will have a LV pickup that goes over the power
lead to the ignition coil. Neither will work well with the low current
12v tach signal used in our EVs.
I've been trying to solve this problem for awhile.. and still have not
found a good solution. If I had saved the ignition coil and module from
the MR2 before conversion I could have used that to fire a sparkplug in
time with the tach signal. I have an ignition module/coil from an 88
Jeep Cherokee but it has 5 pins and I have no idea what the pinout is.
Mark Farver
Mark Farver
!DSPAM:420164999322136420805!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I think they are called edison type cells that was
>the type used in the Baker Electics and some still run
>their original batts after 100yrs!!!!
>Jay Leno's Baker Electric still runs their
>original batts in his. He said it got 109 mile range,
>45mph but don't know if that's true.
Interesting article:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/1302886.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wrote:
> The only reason for tracking engine RPM is to be able to
> compute the driveline ratio so that they can convert the
> roller HP back to crankshaft HP.
Oops, this is wrong: the engine RPM is required to convert rear
wheel/roller *torque* back to crankshaft *torque*, not HP.
Engine HP will be related to the product of crankshaft torque and
crankshaft RPM, but guess what... it will be exactly the same as the
rear wheel HP value! Let's say the overall drivetrain ratio is 4:1,
then the rear wheel RPM is multiplied by 4 to yield crankshaft RPM, but
the torque is divided by 4, so the HP value remains unchanged.
In reality, the crankshaft HP must be somewhat greater than the rear
wheel HP due to drivetrain losses, however, a chassis dyno has no way of
determining what those losses might be.
It occurs to me that the real reason the dyno software wants an engine
RPM signal is so that is ban pump out a graph of HP/torque vs *engine
speed*, whether the HP and torque values are rear wheel or translated
back to the crankshaft figures (where HP would be unchanged, but torque
would differ by a factor equal to the driveline ratio).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Long Beach city College has a class in converting cars t5o Electric! It
is a very good class and worth going to.Cal Macy is the instructor.
Larry
Cronk 72 datsun Elec Tk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you know the roller RPM and the engine RPM and the overall gear ratio
between them you would also know if something somewhere is slipping. If
something is slipping then you know that calculated engine torque and HP is
in error.
___________
Andre' B.
At 05:13 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote:
I wrote:
> The only reason for tracking engine RPM is to be able to
> compute the driveline ratio so that they can convert the
> roller HP back to crankshaft HP.
Oops, this is wrong: the engine RPM is required to convert rear
wheel/roller *torque* back to crankshaft *torque*, not HP.
Engine HP will be related to the product of crankshaft torque and
crankshaft RPM, but guess what... it will be exactly the same as the
rear wheel HP value! Let's say the overall drivetrain ratio is 4:1,
then the rear wheel RPM is multiplied by 4 to yield crankshaft RPM, but
the torque is divided by 4, so the HP value remains unchanged.
In reality, the crankshaft HP must be somewhat greater than the rear
wheel HP due to drivetrain losses, however, a chassis dyno has no way of
determining what those losses might be.
It occurs to me that the real reason the dyno software wants an engine
RPM signal is so that is ban pump out a graph of HP/torque vs *engine
speed*, whether the HP and torque values are rear wheel or translated
back to the crankshaft figures (where HP would be unchanged, but torque
would differ by a factor equal to the driveline ratio).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you know the roller RPM and the engine RPM and the overall
> gear ratio between them you would also know if something
> somewhere is slipping. If something is slipping then you
> know that calculated engine torque and HP is in error.
True, but generally the only gear ratio knowledge available is based on
the observed RPMs.
Also, there are usually pretty obvious clues if you have any significant
slippage! ;^>
(The slippage usually occurs at the tire/roller interface...)
I am not saying that engine RPM is not useful, just that it isn't
essential.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 11 inch Kostov. I think the 11 WarP was built to replace the kostov.
I run at 240 volts and have had it on a jet Dyno.
400 ft-lbs 170 hp at 2000 rpm, 100 ft-lbs 100 hp at 5000.
I run it to 5500 rpm all the time. I have had it up to 6200 rpm without
it falling apart.
This may be over stating the facts but 400 ft-lbs at low speeds breaks
alots of things .. transmissions, cvt joints, clutches, shafts. Have replaced
all many times($$$).
Next step is new dot street drag radials.
My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
When you are up aginst Wayland and Omtar bragging rights are hard to find.(:>)
Robert Salem
81 VW pickup, 240 volts, 11 kostov, Z2K controller.
Columbus, Ohio
> What applictations are those two motors currently used for
> in the industry(non ev)?
>
> Someone on this list has used one or both of them. What is
> the story on those motors vs's an 8" or 9" motor?
>
> Is saying an 8" or 9" are "small blocks" and the 11" and 13"
> are "big blocks" accurate?
>
> Anyone have any hp/tq numbers on the two bigger motors? How
> much voltage can they take?
>
> Do the 8" and 9" motors redline at like 5,000rpm? What do
> the two bigger motors redline at?
>
> Are DC motors currently as advanced as they are ever going
> to get? Are these four motor choices the only foreseeable
> choices as far as DC motors go?
>
> Why are there like 15 different AC motor choices? What are
> those motor/controller/gearboxes currently used for in the
> industry(non ev)? Is it possible to get an AC car in the
> "100 mph club"?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Wanted to mention that Siemens inverters have programmable
tach output specifically for that purpose - to drive stock
tach, and, of course to be hooked up to external equipment
if you wish, like dyno. 12V pulse output.
Yes.. but the signal is low current. The LV dyno probe is an inductive
pickup designed to key into the fairly large 12v current spikes leading
into the ignition module. We tried the Siemens tach signal and with
just the factory tach attached the current pulses were not high enough
to trigger the sensor.
You will need some kind of current amplifier and a dummy load...
something akin to the Datsun tach interface Otmar built and discussed on
evtech last month.
How do they check diesels?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
Optical pickup off a moving engine part. This is how we tested the
Siemens powered Ranger I converted. It was a scary affair involving the
shop owner holding the optical pickup pointed at the driveline, lying on
the floor under the vehicle while it was doing 60mph on the rollers.
Kids, don't try this at home.
Since it was driveshaft RPM and not engine RPM I'm sure it mucked up the
numbers.
Actually a better solution might be to wire your tach signal to a IR led
and point the optical pickup at it. Odds are the pickup will see the
pulses from the LED as reflections. Then the only question is how many
pulses per revolution the optical pickup wants to see... usually this is
adjustable in the software since the optical pickup plugs into the same
jack as the ignition pickup.. so the software already has a "number of
cylinders" option on the menu. Might be worth wiring up a 555 timer to
blink the LED at some known frequency and take it to the dyno shop ahead
of time for a quick test. (Usually the dyno displays engine RPM even
when idle)
Maybe I'll have to do just that... heck of a lot easier than an ignition
module.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
>I am not saying that engine RPM is not useful, just that it isn't
>essential.
True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be calculated unless you
know its rpm. The rollers rpm and torque will determine HP at the road.
Most people would like some motor torque and power curves. This could be
espcially useful with EVs as there has not been a great deal of research
into what the real torque is across the rpm range with gross overamping.
This info could help with motor modifications (timing comes to mind first).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here they are...
part 1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/27618
part 2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/27651
part 3, the rest of the story
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/28630
I could never say enough regarding how much I appreciate Johns
skills, knowledge, accomplishments, and most of all Stories!
So I tend to not say anything about it, after all it's a given isn't it?
You should know that we do appreciate it, more than we can say.
L8r
Ryan
PS. Rich, ThanX for the Technicals on the SRC (silicon knief switch).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes.. but the signal is low current. The LV dyno probe is an inductive
pickup designed to key into the fairly large 12v current spikes leading
into the ignition module. We tried the Siemens tach signal and with
just the factory tach attached the current pulses were not high enough
to trigger the sensor.
Are you sure you wired it correctly? It's open drain output, did you use
a pull up resistor to the +12V rail?
Still, this is a "signal" signal, not a driver to do some work on any
load. So reasonable load like tachometer it can drive, few hundred mA.
If a dyno sensor consumes more, indeed build a simple follower or find
more modern dyno.
...
Optical pickup off a moving engine part. This is how we tested the
Siemens powered Ranger I converted. It was a scary affair involving the
shop owner holding the optical pickup pointed at the driveline, lying on
the floor under the vehicle while it was doing 60mph on the rollers.
Kids, don't try this at home.
So if optical pick up can work, the inverter driver can certainly drive
few LEDs, no problem.
Actually a better solution might be to wire your tach signal to a IR led
and point the optical pickup at it. Odds are the pickup will see the
pulses from the LED as reflections. Then the only question is how many
pulses per revolution the optical pickup wants to see... usually this is
adjustable in the software since the optical pickup plugs into the same
jack as the ignition pickup.. so the software already has a "number of
cylinders" option on the menu.
You will find this setting in SIADIS menu.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be calculated unless you
know its rpm.
No, the torque is not calculated, it is measured. You meant hp
cannot be calculated; for that indeed you need to know RPM
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you guys see any other batteries that would be useful for an EV? I see Item
#11 has 10 Trojan batteries, but I don't know what they are(voltage, etc.)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://www.solarvehicles.org/pages/1/
>
> Makes ya wonder what these hosers do when the Great White North
> becomes just that (white, that is, and cold, too), eh?!
You dress warmly. People go skiing, snowshoeing, snowmobiling, etc. no
matter how cold it is.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm working on a Soleq Escort conversion here.
I've discovered that after only 15,000 miles the brushes are worn
down to the rivets!
This is for a sep ex GE Mod 5DT2366C26, it's about 11" in diameter.
Ratings are fan cooled at: 24.9 HP at 2507 rpm, 103.7V at 205A.
The old brushes are M785 material which Dennis tells me is for low
voltage motors (up to 80V). I'm thinking that with a 108 V system and
regen it may need a more resistive material to survive.
Does anyone know a good source for GE brushes?
Thanks!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
