EV Digest 4074
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: More military NiCads up for auction
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Bob Salem's Hot VW Pickup
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Source for GE motor brushes?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Emergency disconnect
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Emergency disconnect
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Build your own Electric Vehicle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) (no subject)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Emergency disconnect
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Bob Salem's Hot VW Pickup
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wrote earlier:
>> True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be calculated unless
you
>> know its rpm.
Victor wrote:
No, the torque is not calculated, it is measured. You meant hp
cannot be calculated; for that indeed you need to know RPM
The hp can be calculated at the roller because you don't need motor rpm, for
that you need the torque measured at the roller and the rollers rpm (ft/lbs
* rpm / 5252 = hp). To calculate the motors torque you need to know the
motors rpm.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for posting the info. I'm especially interested, since I'm
putting a Kostov 11 incher into my conversion, and I want to race,
too.
How many amps are you putting through the motor? Have you
experimented to find the max amps possible? If yes, how did you do
your experiment? Have you witnessed any arcing problems? How did you
decide on 240 Volts? Many thanks for the answers.
One way I'm going off the beaten path is I'm doing the Sepex Kostov.
Hopefully that'll give me constant power, so if I'm lucky I can make
170 hp at 2000 rpm, and 170 hp at 5000 rpm -- we'll see if reality
matches my hopes.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have a 11 inch Kostov. I think the 11 WarP was built to replace
> the kostov.
> I run at 240 volts and have had it on a jet Dyno.
> 400 ft-lbs 170 hp at 2000 rpm, 100 ft-lbs 100 hp at 5000.
> I run it to 5500 rpm all the time. I have had it up to 6200 rpm
> without
> it falling apart.
>
> This may be over stating the facts but 400 ft-lbs at low speeds
> breaks
> alots of things .. transmissions, cvt joints, clutches, shafts.
> Have replaced
> all many times($$$).
>
> Next step is new dot street drag radials.
>
> My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
> I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
> I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster
> ??)
>
> When you are up aginst Wayland and Omtar bragging rights are hard
> to find.(:>)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 7:55 PM -0800 2-3-05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes.. but the signal is low current. The LV dyno probe is an
inductive pickup designed to key into the fairly large 12v current
spikes leading into the ignition module. We tried the Siemens tach
signal and with just the factory tach attached the current pulses
were not high enough to trigger the sensor.
Are you sure you wired it correctly? It's open drain output, did you use
a pull up resistor to the +12V rail?
Still, this is a "signal" signal, not a driver to do some work on
any load. So reasonable load like tachometer it can drive, few
hundred mA.
Victor,
Many tachometers require 60V to trigger. For that your pull-up
resistor will not work at all. You'll need a circuit like the one I
built using the circuit supplied by Stan Witherspoon on the EVtech
list.
Here is the circuit:
Here is what actually worked:
+ 12 -+----+
| |
> |
~ 73 Ohm (3x 220 ohm > |
1 W in parallel) > |
| |
White | | Green
R S )||( RS
+12 )||( 273-1380
isolated | 8 ohm )||( 1k ohm
+12V > )||(
| 10K > Red | | Blue
> > | +-----------> to tach
15K > | c |/
> +----+-------| TIP29
| | e |\
__|_ |/ |
\ / | 4N37 |
_\/_ |\ Gnd
Square wave | |
From V/F----+ Gnd
Otmar and anyone else, feel free to use this circuit or any
modifications.
And then there was Waylands Datsun tach which seemed to require a 2
amp pulse to trigger, yet another circuit I built. (If anyone need
this let me know, I can find a diagram)
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 7:56 PM -0500 2-3-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have a 11 inch Kostov. I think the 11 WarP was built to replace the kostov.
I run at 240 volts and have had it on a jet Dyno.
400 ft-lbs 170 hp at 2000 rpm, 100 ft-lbs 100 hp at 5000.
I run it to 5500 rpm all the time. I have had it up to 6200 rpm without
it falling apart.
This may be over stating the facts but 400 ft-lbs at low speeds breaks
alots of things .. transmissions, cvt joints, clutches, shafts. Have replaced
all many times($$$).
Next step is new dot street drag radials.
My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
When you are up aginst Wayland and Omtar bragging rights are hard to find.(:>)
Hey Bob,
I'd say you are doing quite well with your truck!
It's not only impressive in the 1/4 mile, but much prettier than my
old Porsche in the pits. Plus, you are one of the few to put a high
power rig on a Dyno.
I'm curious, what settings did you have on the Z2K when you pulled
that 170 hp number?
Keep it up!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I would appreciate it if the successful bidder would offer me a hundred or
> > so cells at cost :-). I was going to bid, but I can't handle that
> > quantity right now.
So, I'm back on the fence about putting these in my car. To do a 120 volt car
with decent range
I'm looking at 300 cells (or there abouts.) That's a lot of interconnects, but
only once. It's the
watering I'm concerned about. The only system I've seen was priced at $11 per
cap. Holy @#$%^!
That's more than I paid for the cells themselves. Does anyone know of a
reasonably priced watering
system? Does the Saft watering system work with Marathon cells?
What about the Nickel Iron Cobalt batteries, do they need watering?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know the details on watering those particular
NiFe batteries, but the modules in the TEVan used
considerably more water than the NiCd batteries (I
would say 8 to 1 ratio?).
Rod
P.S. Even though I had to water them more I liked the
NiFe batteries better and had slightly better range.
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I would appreciate it if the successful bidder
> would offer me a hundred or
> > > so cells at cost :-). I was going to bid, but I
> can't handle that
> > > quantity right now.
>
> So, I'm back on the fence about putting these in my
> car. To do a 120 volt car with decent range
> I'm looking at 300 cells (or there abouts.) That's a
> lot of interconnects, but only once. It's the
> watering I'm concerned about. The only system I've
> seen was priced at $11 per cap. Holy @#$%^!
> That's more than I paid for the cells themselves.
> Does anyone know of a reasonably priced watering
> system? Does the Saft watering system work with
> Marathon cells?
>
> What about the Nickel Iron Cobalt batteries, do they
> need watering?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... with a roller type dyno they are NOT
reading the torque at the engine, they are reading it at the wheels, or
more specifically at the roller. If they know the RPM of the roller then
they most certainly CAN calculate HP AT THE ROLLER. The driveline ratio
and engine RPM are irrelevant for calculating wheel HP.
Knowing the engine RPM is nice, because then you can calculate driveline
ratio, but certainly NOT required to calculate HP at the wheel.
Besides, what if you have an automatic with a torque converter? Slipping
in the torque converter is going to skew any driveline ratio calculations.
> Peter...Peter Peter.....
> because Horse power is torque times RPM.
> They have NO idea what your drive line ratios are or for that matter your
> exact tire height.
> For a solid Hp number you need both.
> The dynomometer can read the forces being made...and it's own RPM But not
> your vehicles. Once you tie in your motor(Engine) RPM the software and
> controls lock in.
>
> On a normal Dyno... aka Engine only, you have the water brake slined to
> the
> Engine crankshaft, so then Dyno input shaft and Engine shaft are the same.
>
> One of the Biggest screw ups on the tow Rigs tested was the trannies Down
> shifted when they were floored.. So they ran the speed up the point that
> the
> drive trains did NOT down shift.
> This led to some 100 mph tire speeds and the roller(it was about 4 ft in
> diameter) was making some nasty hissing sounds at that surface speed.
> This also kept the low speed torque number rather low.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
>> >
>> > Here is a very serious requirement for any EVs on the Dyno... make
>> sure
>> > you
>> > can give the operator a clean accurate Tach pulse... Beacuase they
>> can't
>> > do
>> > HP unless they have both RPM and torque. We spent a lot of time
>> getting
>> > tach
>> > signals to the Dyno equipment.
>>
>>
>> Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
My buddy Bob Salem wrote:
> >My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
> >I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
> >I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
Oat wrote:
> Hey Bob,
> I'd say you are doing quite well with your truck!
> It's not only impressive in the 1/4 mile, but much prettier than my
> old Porsche in the pits.
What's important to note, is that Bob's hot VW bakes its front tires for a full
second as
it moves off the line before it bites and then launches very strongly down the
track,
pulling hard up to an impressive 90 mph! I had the absolute pleasure of racing
next to
him, plus I got to watch his launch on another run. In my estimation, once he
gets his
front driver to hook up off the line, low 14's and even high 13's are in the
bag with no
other changes...that's hauling ass! It's enough to make Subi WRX drivers
worried and
embarrassed with their 14.3 second 227 hp 4 wheel drive machines. Once he gets
to that
level, playing with final drive ratios will net even more improvements, I'm
sure. I
wouldn't at all be surprised to see Bob and his light weight pickup running
down to low
13's eventually.
Bob wrote:
>When you are up against Wayland and Otmar bragging rights are hard to find.
You are indeed, the top dog when it comes to being the fastest single motor
street legal
door slammer EV in the 1/4 mile...bragging rights well deserved!
I'm really hoping for a repeat of last year, in having you and Dave and friends
coming
west again with this high powered EV. NEDRA and I are working on a date for the
'Wayland
Invitational', a Friday night street legal shoot-out here in Portland at the
PIR drag
track along with all the gas powered muscle cars and rice burners. We're hoping
to time
this special street legal only race with the big Woodburn weekend.
The PIR track rolls the red carpet out for EVers who show up to drag race and
even give us
our own lane to run in. You can make as many passes as you want. They often
move the EVs
ahead in the run order just to showcase them...it's a great place to race EVs!
The hot import crowd and the track announcer would go nuts over your VW pickup!
Do I
need to send an invitation card?
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar,
>
> I'm curious, what settings did you have on the Z2K when you pulled
> that 170 hp number?
>
How is your memory ?
They were set like you saw at Woodburn. Before you changed the the low
voltage level for me at the track. I hope that answers you question.
If not I can put a termial on Z2k and get the value
Robert Salem
> At 7:56 PM -0500 2-3-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >I have a 11 inch Kostov. I think the 11 WarP was built to replace the
> kostov.
> >I run at 240 volts and have had it on a jet Dyno.
> >400 ft-lbs 170 hp at 2000 rpm, 100 ft-lbs 100 hp at 5000.
> >I run it to 5500 rpm all the time. I have had it up to 6200 rpm without
> >it falling apart.
> >
> >This may be over stating the facts but 400 ft-lbs at low speeds breaks
> >alots of things .. transmissions, cvt joints, clutches, shafts. Have
> replaced
> >all many times($$$).
> >
> >Next step is new dot street drag radials.
> >
> >My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
> >I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
> >I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
> >
> >When you are up aginst Wayland and Omtar bragging rights are hard to
> find.(:>)
>
> Hey Bob,
> I'd say you are doing quite well with your truck!
> It's not only impressive in the 1/4 mile, but much prettier than my
> old Porsche in the pits. Plus, you are one of the few to put a high
> power rig on a Dyno.
>
> I'm curious, what settings did you have on the Z2K when you pulled
> that 170 hp number?
>
> Keep it up!
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This post by Rich may tend to confuse some folks. The Roger Hedlund 100 mph
Club is for any electric vehicle that breaks 100 mph in the quarter mile. It
does not have to be licensed, it doesn't even have to be a car. It can be a
dragster, a motorcycle, or a concept vehicle. It does have to be powered by
onboard electric power.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
Speaking of the 100 Mph club.
It's a new year... the Slate is clean for 2005.
So... all us fast Boys need to get out and do it again.
The rules are Real time slips. 1/4 mile runs.
Street legal, Tags, and insurance required.
This is simply a NO BS club.
And for the record I am NOT a memeber. As I recall for 2004 and 4 only one
is John "Plasma Boy" Wayland
Am I wrong???.
Bikes are welcome...Same rules.
Otmar should have made it, and so should have Gone Postal.
didn't happen.
Time to try again.
On the Warp 11 and 13s. I have heard the 11 is s Kostov up grade...OK but
not the best for drag racing, and the 13 is rather expensive, and has a
4000
RPM redline. Both are buildt to order. Read not in stock.
This makes the Dual motor Advanced 8s and 9s setups a LOT more favorable.
I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he needs to get
going on his monster motor.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My contact for my GE motor and Brushes are which was a while back.
General Electric
Box 1316, Northland Center Station
South Field, MI 48075
1-313-552-3000
Bought two sets of spare brushes which is 8-each per set or total of 16
brushes. These cost me about $500.00 back then. These are like tool steel
and still running the originals on the back section on the commentator while
the front section worn down only 1 inch from a 2 inch long brush.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Source for GE motor brushes?
> Hi All,
>
> I'm working on a Soleq Escort conversion here.
> I've discovered that after only 15,000 miles the brushes are worn
> down to the rivets!
>
> This is for a sep ex GE Mod 5DT2366C26, it's about 11" in diameter.
> Ratings are fan cooled at: 24.9 HP at 2507 rpm, 103.7V at 205A.
> The old brushes are M785 material which Dennis tells me is for low
> voltage motors (up to 80V). I'm thinking that with a 108 V system and
> regen it may need a more resistive material to survive.
>
> Does anyone know a good source for GE brushes?
>
> Thanks!
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger I have never met a racer who was serious enough about racing to put
his car on a dyno who did not know the gear ratios his transmission and
rear end.
___________
Andre' B.
At 06:07 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote:
Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you know the roller RPM and the engine RPM and the overall
> gear ratio between them you would also know if something
> somewhere is slipping. If something is slipping then you
> know that calculated engine torque and HP is in error.
True, but generally the only gear ratio knowledge available is based on
the observed RPMs.
Also, there are usually pretty obvious clues if you have any significant
slippage! ;^>
(The slippage usually occurs at the tire/roller interface...)
I am not saying that engine RPM is not useful, just that it isn't
essential.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe this would work in a pinch.
World War II axe for attack on electrified wire. Handle 17 in. is vulcanized
rubber marked 20,000 volt use, blade is curved for down stroke on an object,
other end comes to a curved point for pulling loose. Very odd appearance,
made for a job ! $65.00
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/tools.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
perhaps you could buy one
find a volunteer to cut the local substation main
powercable with it to test
please take photo
look forward to the results
reb
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe this would work in a pinch.
> World War II axe for attack on electrified wire.
> Handle 17 in. is vulcanized
> rubber marked 20,000 volt use, blade is curved for
> down stroke on an object,
> other end comes to a curved point for pulling loose.
> Very odd appearance,
> made for a job ! $65.00
> http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/tools.html
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are in San Francisco please take note & if you care to post a copy in
a prominent location. If you are not in the area please ignore. Thank you.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are these the same Hawkres everyone likes to much? $39.95, 51AH, 52lbs.
http://www.industrialliquidators.com/wesell/batteries.html
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's an esay way to find out roughly, just mark your wheel, and mark your
motor shaft with a little pain, then turn your wheel one full revolution
while somebody counts your motor shaft revolutions, and there you are :)
ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Andre' Blanchard
Enviado el: viernes, 04 de febrero de 2005 13:42
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
Roger I have never met a racer who was serious enough about racing to put
his car on a dyno who did not know the gear ratios his transmission and
rear end.
___________
Andre' B.
At 06:07 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote:
>Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > If you know the roller RPM and the engine RPM and the overall
> > gear ratio between them you would also know if something
> > somewhere is slipping. If something is slipping then you
> > know that calculated engine torque and HP is in error.
>
>True, but generally the only gear ratio knowledge available is based on
>the observed RPMs.
>
>Also, there are usually pretty obvious clues if you have any significant
>slippage! ;^>
>(The slippage usually occurs at the tire/roller interface...)
>
>I am not saying that engine RPM is not useful, just that it isn't
>essential.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe this would work in a pinch.
World War II axe for attack on electrified wire. Handle 17 in. is
vulcanized rubber marked 20,000 volt use, blade is curved for down
stroke on an object, other end comes to a curved point for pulling
loose. Very odd appearance, made for a job ! $65.00
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/tools.html
Sounds like a British WWII crash axe.
http://www.gr8gear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=115
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be
> calculated unless you know its rpm. The rollers rpm and
> torque will determine HP at the road.
Yep, no argument.
> Most people would like
> some motor torque and power curves. This could be espcially
> useful with EVs as there has not been a great deal of
> research into what the real torque is across the rpm range
> with gross overamping. This info could help with motor
> modifications (timing comes to mind first).
99% of our EVs use manual transmissions, so all that is required is for
a dyno run to yield a plot of rear wheel HP/torque vs road speed (which
should be available from any chassis dyno without an engine RPM signal),
and some knowledge of what engine RPM corresponds to what road speed in
a given gear.
The big unknown is the HP and torque values, once this info is available
it is a trivial exercise to translate the HP and torque curves at the
rear wheels back to those at the motor.
As I said originally, motor RPM is convenient, but not essential.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger I have never met a racer who was serious enough about
> racing to put his car on a dyno who did not know the gear
> ratios his transmission and rear end.
Unfortunately, that knowledge alone does not provide the overall
drivetrain ratio. What is the drivetrain ratio of a car with an
automatic transmission prior to torque convertor lockup? What is the
drivetrain ratio of a car running wrinklewalls that grow significantly
in diameter with rear wheel RPM (road speed)?
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
I'm new to the EV field, and don't understand some things...
So a EV that uses a manual transmission shifts just like with a gas engine,
it is not a direct drive from the elec motor to the wheels? And that is to
achieve highway type speeds?
Is that also the same with AC and DC motors?
Thanks
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
99% of our EVs use manual transmissions,
Roger.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm new to the EV field, and don't understand some things...
>
> So a EV that uses a manual transmission shifts just like with
> a gas engine, it is not a direct drive from the elec motor to
> the wheels? And that is to achieve highway type speeds?
>
> Is that also the same with AC and DC motors?
There are no hard and fast rules; most EVs use a manual tranny and
retain the ability to shift gears so that they can achieve highway
speeds (and above) without sacrificing acceleration or hill-climbing
ability at lower speeds. However, EVs generally don't need to shift
nearly as often as gas-powered vehicles since the EV typically has great
torque even at 0 RPM and is happy revving to 4000-6000RPM. Some EVs
retain the manual tranny, but leave it locked in a single gear (perhaps
2nd), as that might result in fine accelleration/hill-climbing and still
allow a 50mph top speed.
The above is most applicable to DC motor-powered EVs since they tend to
have a lower max RPM than the AC machines and often have greater torque
(this is more a function of the controller used and how many amps it can
feed the motor). AC motors are often happy revving to 10000RPM, so even
when a manual tranny is retained, there may be no need to shift at all
in most driving.
The big difference between a gas engine and electric powered car is that
even with a manual tranny you don't use the clutch to start moving in
the EV; you put the car in gear, and then just step on the throttle.
The electric motor has great torque even at 0RPM so there is no need to
rev it up and then slowly engage the clutch like with a gas engine. In
fact, some conversions retain the manual tranny but get rid of the
clutch entirely!
Hope this helps,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
An unlocked torque converter would be part of the slipping I was after.
As far as the tires growing. When the car is chained to a dyno, do the
tires grow at the same rate as they would on the same car at the track?
You are arguing both sides here Roger. In another message you said.
"The big unknown is the HP and torque values, once this info is available
it is a trivial exercise to translate the HP and torque curves at the
rear wheels back to those at the motor."
Seems that with all the unknowns in the drive train, knowing the torque and
speed at the dyno roller only provides a limited knowledge of what is
available at the motor.:) In most cases it is likely good enough, but if
you want to know exactly what the motor is doing measure torque and speed
at the motor.
Its Feb. 4 and 52°F here -------> MUD.
____________
Andre' B.
At 01:04 PM 2/4/2005, you wrote:
Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger I have never met a racer who was serious enough about
> racing to put his car on a dyno who did not know the gear
> ratios his transmission and rear end.
Unfortunately, that knowledge alone does not provide the overall
drivetrain ratio. What is the drivetrain ratio of a car with an
automatic transmission prior to torque convertor lockup? What is the
drivetrain ratio of a car running wrinklewalls that grow significantly
in diameter with rear wheel RPM (road speed)?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't the motor RPM known if you know the roller RPM and
tranny overall gear ratio and wheel diameter
(+/- roller slippage and other errors of course)?
Victor
Paul G. wrote:
I wrote earlier:
True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be calculated unless
you
know its rpm.
Victor wrote:
No, the torque is not calculated, it is measured. You meant hp
cannot be calculated; for that indeed you need to know RPM
The hp can be calculated at the roller because you don't need motor rpm, for
that you need the torque measured at the roller and the rollers rpm (ft/lbs
* rpm / 5252 = hp). To calculate the motors torque you need to know the
motors rpm.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
> This post by Rich may tend to confuse some folks. The Roger Hedlund 100
mph
> Club is for any electric vehicle that breaks 100 mph in the quarter mile.
It
> does not have to be licensed, it doesn't even have to be a car. It can be
a
> dragster, a motorcycle, or a concept vehicle. It does have to be powered
by
> onboard electric power.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> NEDRA President
>
>
Rod, don't be confused Rod.....
The Madman 100 mph club is AS I stated...
100 mph on a time slip from a track.
Licensed and titled... and completely street legal.
All takers welcome... %100 electric Only.
And the slate clears at years End... You have to do it every year.
No BS...
That's the kind of club I want to be a part of.
Madman.
So far Plasma Boy has a 2004 entry, and is rather lonely up there.
Gp or Maniac Mazada could do it... and I know you still have a zilla in GP.
Put it in the Mazda. Come on Rod.... don't sit on your Laurels.. make new
ones or get off the Pot.
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--- Begin Message ---
Alright......
I have just had the racing glove slapped across my Face....And it
HURT!
We will just have to see Who owns the Front drive single motor Fame...
It's a long season...... and I have the parts....
A couple of spare motors, a spare tranny...
A Zilla2K and 20 Orbitals...and more if I want 'em.
I suppose Giving Plasma Boy Sh__ about breaking things when he doesn't have
to...
Was not the best idea... now he humiliates me.....OK Plasma Boy...... When
does PIR Open...???
I am going to Snort some Graphite Dust...and find 1.500 Seconds to
spare.....
Hey Bob!!! You just found a target on your Back!!!
Both of us have seconds in our back pockets.... If we could just get things
to hook up!!
Goldie needs some more trophies, before I turn her into razor blades.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:18 AM
Subject: Bob Salem's Hot VW Pickup
> Hello to All,
>
> My buddy Bob Salem wrote:
>
> > >My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
> > >I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
> > >I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
>
> Oat wrote:
>
> > Hey Bob,
> > I'd say you are doing quite well with your truck!
> > It's not only impressive in the 1/4 mile, but much prettier than my
> > old Porsche in the pits.
>
> What's important to note, is that Bob's hot VW bakes its front tires for a
full second as
> it moves off the line before it bites and then launches very strongly down
the track,
> pulling hard up to an impressive 90 mph! I had the absolute pleasure of
racing next to
> him, plus I got to watch his launch on another run. In my estimation, once
he gets his
> front driver to hook up off the line, low 14's and even high 13's are in
the bag with no
> other changes...that's hauling ass! It's enough to make Subi WRX drivers
worried and
> embarrassed with their 14.3 second 227 hp 4 wheel drive machines. Once he
gets to that
> level, playing with final drive ratios will net even more improvements,
I'm sure. I
> wouldn't at all be surprised to see Bob and his light weight pickup
running down to low
> 13's eventually.
>
> Bob wrote:
>
> >When you are up against Wayland and Otmar bragging rights are hard to
find.
>
> You are indeed, the top dog when it comes to being the fastest single
motor street legal
> door slammer EV in the 1/4 mile...bragging rights well deserved!
>
> I'm really hoping for a repeat of last year, in having you and Dave and
friends coming
> west again with this high powered EV. NEDRA and I are working on a date
for the 'Wayland
> Invitational', a Friday night street legal shoot-out here in Portland at
the PIR drag
> track along with all the gas powered muscle cars and rice burners. We're
hoping to time
> this special street legal only race with the big Woodburn weekend.
>
> The PIR track rolls the red carpet out for EVers who show up to drag race
and even give us
> our own lane to run in. You can make as many passes as you want. They
often move the EVs
> ahead in the run order just to showcase them...it's a great place to race
EVs!
>
> The hot import crowd and the track announcer would go nuts over your VW
pickup! Do I
> need to send an invitation card?
>
> See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> How do they check diesels?
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> "I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of
elimination"
> ----- Original Message -----
>
They had a interface that plugged into the factory wireing harness.
Slick!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll buy that.
I found it kinda strange that they needed this, but it was one of those
things that If you weren't there, you didn't know it was needed.
They also had a interface for exhaust chemistry, this let them tune the
Carbs and injector brains as a funtion of RPM.
The dyno didn't loose it's mind, you just didn't get a really nice
torque and HP Vs engine RPM plot.
And as I said.. for $50 a pull... you WANTED this in a bad way.
The point is Go ask the Dyno guys what they need before you just show up
with a EV and expect perfect results.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> Rich, Rich, Rich...
>
> > because Horse power is torque times RPM.
> > They have NO idea what your drive line ratios are or for that
> > matter your exact tire height. For a solid Hp number you need
> > both. The dynomometer can read the forces being made...and
> > it's own RPM But not your vehicles. Once you tie in your
> > motor(Engine) RPM the software and controls lock in.
>
> Rear wheel HP is rear wheel HP, and happens to equal the roller HP.
>
> The only reason for tracking engine RPM is to be able to compute the
> driveline ratio so that they can convert the roller HP back to
> crankshaft HP.
>
> It may well be that their dyno loses its mind if it doesn't see a clean
> engine RPM number, however, this is just poor design of the equipment
> since it *must* measure roller RPM and torque anyway.
>
> If it didn't measure roller RPM as well as engine RPM then it couldn't
> determine the driveline ratio, which it must have in order to convert
> the roller/rear wheel torque back to crankshaft torque as it is
> crankshaft torque and RPM that yield crankshaft HP.
>
> The dyno plots that I've seen from chassis dynos have always been
> showing HP and torque at the rear wheels, i.e. are totally independent
> of the engine RPM (e.g. the 482HP/910ft-lbs I reported for my buddy's
> diesel truck are the *rear wheel* numbers from the dyno, not engine
> values). It may be that the dyno's software is limited such that it has
> to see a clean engine RPM signal to function at all, but an engine RPM
> signal is certainly not required to compute rear wheel HP.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am spending the rest of the week getting the dyno working... the U of W EV
race team is going to be here to learn something about DC torque.
I have piles of toys and little time to try to get it all working... But
this should get me off my Butt and get the dyno on line.
Yea I really want to get 1000 to 2000 amp load curves collected... This is
Bench racing season.. time to get it going!!
Timing comes after Brush Prep... You won't get big amps without full
contact... Lets see where we can go... carefully at first!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Roger wrote:
> >I am not saying that engine RPM is not useful, just that it isn't
> >essential.
>
> True, but motor/engine torque (net) is not able to be calculated unless
you
> know its rpm. The rollers rpm and torque will determine HP at the road.
> Most people would like some motor torque and power curves. This could be
> espcially useful with EVs as there has not been a great deal of research
> into what the real torque is across the rpm range with gross overamping.
> This info could help with motor modifications (timing comes to mind
first).
>
> Neon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> I have a 11 inch Kostov. I think the 11 WarP was built to replace the
kostov.
> I run at 240 volts and have had it on a jet Dyno.
> 400 ft-lbs 170 hp at 2000 rpm, 100 ft-lbs 100 hp at 5000.
> I run it to 5500 rpm all the time. I have had it up to 6200 rpm without
> it falling apart.
>
> This may be over stating the facts but 400 ft-lbs at low speeds breaks
> alots of things .. transmissions, cvt joints, clutches, shafts. Have
replaced
> all many times($$$).
>
> Next step is new dot street drag radials.
>
> My best ever 15.331 @90.85 mph at Woodburn 2004.
> I think I have the fastest front wheel ev.(Rich used to be!)
> I think I am the fastest single motor SC/b ev also.(Anybody faster ??)
>
> When you are up aginst Wayland and Omtar bragging rights are hard to
find.(:>)
>
> Robert Salem
> 81 VW pickup, 240 volts, 11 kostov, Z2K controller.
> Columbus, Ohio
>
Becuase of Robert's succes in using the Kostov... I have rebuildt mine and
it's back in the Fiero...
This a Car that does NOT have traction issues, just a really light front
end!!! My old Raptor would yank the tires off the ground with this motor.
And Yes I did find the slots holding down the brush rigging... and it's Now
fully advanced....
I really don't think the Fiero is going to Bring Otmar or Plasma Boy to
thier knees... it's just too heavy to compete, I have like a 1000 lbs of
Steel more than both of thier cars have.
The tranny is a equalizer... but I doubt that equal..
In the big picture.... we were all in favor of the Kostov when it came out..
It has interpoles, and is rather cheap compared to other hand modified
motors. But becuase of the interpoles the Brushes are about 1/2 the area of
a AvDC 8 or 9 inch motor. So stuffing 2000 amps into one is not a good
thing. I over heated mine in some lowly 800 to 1000 amp pulls. So... We have
gone back to Big Dumb clearly NOT technically advanced Advanced DC motors.
Or Warp... wich is a better motor, and a bit cheaper.
LaB notes here:
I have been breaking in my Kosty, since the brushes are NOT new, and are now
in different brush holders... they really need to spin in... for LONG
amounts of time. OK Big 300 amp 600 volt 3 phase rectifier.... my 50 amp
vairac on my power bench.. and welding cables streached to the Fiero's
charge port...aka the old Gas cap... and we have wound up the kosty.. noisey
at first then it quites down, and pulls 30 amps at about 15 volts. Good for
about 1500 rpm. I let it run ... for hours and hours. Nothing gets hot, not
the brushes, not the case... nothing. And it's flinging around the flywheel
and clutch in the tranny. Still no heat in the brushes.. You wnat to get
some heat to get the carbon and the copper to grow the correct "Film" on the
commutator.. NO heat.. OK... What ever....
Then last week I had a client that was interested in one of my AvDC 6.7
incher shorty motors... AC4002s that I got from Wayland...He still has 3 as
of last Sunday afternoon. Well I yanked the brushes.. and the they were
FLAT!! NO raidiusing at all. OK sand paper time... 330 grit works fast and
messy. I arced them in, stoned the comm for rough polish, and let fly the
amps... 20 amps and 19 volts is about all you dare run this on. It rips!!!
I counted 10 turns on the field windings, a 57 bar comm, and it's rated as a
72 volt motor. OK... In 15 minutes the comm end of the motor is warm, and
you really don't want to put your fingers on the brushes... 130 to 140 Deg
F. The whole motor warms up, and rather fast......4000 free spin...here,
just the motor on a engine stand and NO load. The brushes quited down.. and
it spins really free compared to the non broken in brushes. The film is
perfect the contact patch is perfect.... But it gets really warm!! Again
funny data...
I also hear that this motor may be the same as the one Eric Miller runs
in his Jr. Dragster. It's a cute motor, nice size and well buildt. A Keeper
in my mind. Eric has dropped somthing like 1.5 seconds from the start of his
efforts on his motor to what it is now days. So..... there are LOTS of ways
to improve on the basic motor. Don't tell me that you can't improve a
motor... While keeping it "just about stock" The first hint is that the
stocker has almost 85 thousandths of a air Gap armature to field pole shoes.
Dennis B. has his GE dialed to only .014 total air gap, that's ,007 from
any surface on the Armature to the field shoes. That's a Decked and milled
machine for EVers. Bill Dube has a pair of long case 6.7 inchers on
Killacycle.... I wonder what his airgaps are and What his brush contact
surface patches look like??? If Bill is racing this weekend.. We need to all
wish him the best and a safe day at the races... I hope he gets the bike
back into the 9s...where is should be Even with Hawkers... Rumor is He won't
be running anything with lead in it.
So..... It really looks like the Kosty is many percent more efficient at no
load and high RPMs. Why..... maybe those interpoles are really doing
something beside adding weight and complexity to a motor.
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