EV Digest 4090
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Insight parts?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: K&W BC-20 Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: AC Motors and Reverse
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: K&W BC-20 Question
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) building your own batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: building your own batteries
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
by Tom Dowling - remote <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: building your own batteries
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: building your own batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: building your own batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: building your own batteries
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: building your own batteries
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: building your own batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Solectria / Sunrise was AC Motors and Reverse
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Solectria / Sunrise was AC Motors and Reverse
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Solectria / Sunrise was AC Motors and Reverse
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Attack Life, It Will Kill You Anyway
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4526567725
Says left over from an EV conversion - anyone on the EVDL?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> You also have to change a resistor inside the BC-20 that sets the max
>> voltage. You can actually go to voltages higher than what is stated in
>> the manual, you just have to calculate what the resistor needs to be
>> (the
>> manual lists the specific resistor values for normal pack voltage
>> ranges).
>
> Is there some technical or liability reason K&W didn't just put a
> potentiometer
> on the front to allow voltage adjustment without having to open the case?
>
>
There IS a fine adjustment potentiometer on the front of the charge, the
resistor in question is a /coarse/ adjustment. I.e. you set it for
nominal pack voltage and adjust finish charge voltage with the pot on the
front.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's all software control for these drives.
You can run either direction and have regen if
the controller is smart enough.
Ivo, I worked at Baldor, remember the Smartmotor?
Cheers,
Rod
--- Ivo Jara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know how good they run, but they do, I
> worked fror Grundfos, a water
> pump manufacturer, and when the electricians on
> location wired a pump
> incorrectly, it did run backwards.
>
> those were AC brushless submersible motors 380 Volts
> 5 to 400 hp.
>
>
http://net.grundfos.com/Appl/WebCAPS/CatalogueCtrl;jsessionid=00003bnN0WHKvv
> DuHPkcsDGkSAR:-1?cmd=prsr
>
> Ivo
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> nombre de Carl Clifford
> Enviado el: viernes, 11 de febrero de 2005 17:00
> Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Asunto: AC Motors and Reverse
>
>
> Easy question for those more knowledgeable than
> myself:
>
> Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words,
> if I build an AC
> conversion w/out a transmission will I be able to
> back up?
>
> I know the arguments against doing this, just
> curious about this detail.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Carl Clifford
> Denver
> ;-| grinless
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release
> Date: 10/02/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Saying something is impractical for
>> a hobbyist simply because you can't do it the way major manufacturers do
>> it is both overly pessimistic and misleading.
>
I'm going to go with Victor on this. People build their own EVs because
they can't buy them. Even though motors and controllers are readily
available, people build their own motors and controllers. They do this
because they see some advantage in doing it themselves.
If there was /any/ kind of advantage in building your own batteries
/someone/ would be doing it. Is anyone doing it?That's pretty coclusive
evidence that their is no advantage to doing it.
If some of you folks think differnetly, well quit arguing about it and go
out do it. If your excuse for NOT doing it is ______ (fill in the blank)
then you've pretty much made Victor's point.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the Solectria news release:
> James Worden, founding shareholder and CEO of Solectria, will
> independently pursue opportunities in the renewable energy sector
> and become a member of the Azure Dynamics Advisory Board.
Something smells funny here ...
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world
with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
-- H L Mencken
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I charged 128V pack off of mine, but distinctly
remember that it could do 144, like people said, with
the proper resistor inserted.
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I saw Jeff's K&W BC-20 on Ebay. Jeff wasn't sure
> about a could questions I
> had, so is there anyone on the list who has or knows
> about a BC-20 that
> could answer the following:
>
> 1) Does the LB-20 front-end make the BC-20 an
> isolated charger?
> 2) With the LB-20 attached, if you turn the BC-20's
> voltage dial to MAX,
> what is the voltage that the BC-20 will output
> during the CV part of the
> charge?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was anyone on this list around in the 1950's or earlier?
Someone once told me that in the 1950's if you went into an
auto parts store to buy a new battery, the battery case was
dry, and they had to fill it with acid and then "jump start"
the battery to get it to be able to take an initial charge.
Anyone remember this or know more details about it?
Also either during that time, or the during decades before,
there were these ~1 foot square glass containers used for
radios (out in the country where their weren't any power
lines yet, seems like a windmill was used to charge the
battery). Apparently, it had some sort of lid and plates
and you filled them with acid. Anyone ever seen one of
these? Any pics? I've seen the glass containers before,
but not the rest of the components.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Feb 2005 at 17:37, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> If there was /any/ kind of advantage in building your own batteries
> /someone/ would be doing it.
That statement might be a bit narrow. After all, Bob Aronson built his own
over 30 years ago, and he continues to carry the torch for "lead cobalt"
batteries. Over the years he's apparently tried to interest several
manufacturers in putting his design into serial production - 6 or 8 years
ago I remember he was over in China trying to find someone - but I don't
think any production relationship has ever really come to fruition.
It's never been entirely clear to me what measurable and verifiable effect,
if any, his cobalt doping really had. Maybe Bob Rice has some thoughts on
that, since he worked for Aronson in the EFP days.
Would I try rolling my own? I doubt it. Most batteries are made with
fairly nasty chemicals. Renewing the electrolyte in a lead acid battery is
about as far as I want to go with handling hazardous materials. I don't
think I'm qualified to tinker with much more battery chemistry than that.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human
intelligence for long enough to get money from it.
-- Stephen Leacock
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am not THAT old, but back when I was a grease monkey in an AAFES garage
(1988) I would have to fill dry batteries with acid, as they were shipped
and stored without any acid in them.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: building your own batteries
Was anyone on this list around in the 1950's or earlier?
Someone once told me that in the 1950's if you went into an
auto parts store to buy a new battery, the battery case was
dry, and they had to fill it with acid and then "jump start"
the battery to get it to be able to take an initial charge.
Anyone remember this or know more details about it?
Also either during that time, or the during decades before,
there were these ~1 foot square glass containers used for
radios (out in the country where their weren't any power
lines yet, seems like a windmill was used to charge the
battery). Apparently, it had some sort of lid and plates
and you filled them with acid. Anyone ever seen one of
these? Any pics? I've seen the glass containers before,
but not the rest of the components.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Fine. I *want* to built something in my garage to get me
> to Mars. Really want. According to you I should label anyone
> a pessimist who will tell me this is unrealistic.
>
> THe trick is to draw the line between what is really
> unrealistic and what is difficult enough for plain mortal not
> to bother because efforts will not worth outcome.
Something that will get you to Mars is a much more complex assembly than
a lead acid battery, and requires expertise in several different
disciplines. Drawing a line is reasonable, and I think it is clear that
building a interplanetary vehicle and building a lead acid battery are
clearly on different sides of that line. ;^>
> If someone builds battery parts for you and you bolt them
> together, you are not building a battery.
>
> As people building cars and planes don't fabricate
> engines (lathe pistons etc) - they put together
> parts from kits sold by others. Therefore it is possible.
> If someone will produce "EV LiIon bettery kit",
> that would make fabricating battery in your garage
> doable, just like conversion car itself - you don't fabricate
> any parts of a car - you buy them and make fit.
This is just getting silly. How far do you want to take it? Perhaps
nobody really builds anything since none of us fabricates the raw
materials from random atomic particles; by your logic we all just
assemble things from parts provided by others.
Chris is not suggesting building a better battery than a battery
manufacturer can, he is suggesting building a battery that is optimised
for EV drag racing because this market is so small that battery
manufacturers aren't building product suitable for it.
Any of us can build a battery in our garage with just a potato and a
couple bits of metal for electrodes. It isn't a particularly useful
battery, but it certainly doesn't require a clean room. I think the
suggestion of approaching a battery manufacturer to do a run of
batteries tailored to the specific needs of EV drag racing isn't a bad
one, but expect that for it to be successful one would need to be
prepared to commit to a fairly large volume purchase which would require
getting pretty much every EV racer behind you with a confirmed order at
the very least. On the other hand, the battery manufacturer is probably
a good source for the raw materials. Certainly one can buy the required
sulfuric acid from them, perhaps one can buy the paste for the plates
too.
However, all we are talking about is building a battery that will
survive higher current discharge than the garden variety batteries we
can typically buy. One candidate is the Hawker Cyclon cell specially
developed/modified for the UK RHOLAB project. This is a 2V Cyclon
spiral wound cell with threaded terminals brought out at *both* ends of
the cell vs terminals at just one end on the standard product. Given
that Hawker has produced a (small) number of these cells already, it
might not be totally unreasonable that they might produce more if asked
(and if money accompanied the request). The standard BC size Cyclon has
threaded terminals at one end only, weighs 0.75lb, and is rated 25Ah
C/10, 1335A short circuit and 1.5 milli-ohms internal resistance.
Also, the Bolder TMF technology was purchased by GP (Gold Peak)
Batteries in 2001 and is used in their SecureStart line of automotive
battery jumper starters. It appears they offer 3 models, but all
contain the same set of 6 9/5 sub-C size TMF cells rated 900A for 5s and
1Ah. I don't have a weight on the TMF cells alone, but the smallest
SecureStart is only 1.3kg (<3lbs) total. Given that these cells appear
to be production items, it might be possible to convince GP to sell the
TMF cells directly rather than buying large numbers of SecureStart
devices and stripping the cells out.
For those interested, here is a picture of the 12V TMF pack out of a
Bolder SecureStart:
<http://www.ducati.net/arch/ss/battery01.jpg>
Given that the author of the page this picture comes from
<http://arch.home.texas.net/ss/history.html> states that using this TMF
pack in place of a stock motorcycle battery can save 10lbs, this cute
little 900A for 5s 12V battery probably weighs about 1-2lb. He also
notes that the SecureStart cost him about $100 at Sears. It is
interesting that if one used these packs, the TMF cells are
'preassembled' into 12V modules capable of 900A for 5s, saving one the
hassle of figuring out how to connect them up. Of course, if one did
their own interconnects, more than 900A for 5s might be available.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the 10,000 miles on the same batteries club, you'd better specify lead
acid batteries. For NiMH batteries, it should be the 100,000 mile club.
There are already several RAV4 EVs eligible for that club, and many more
working on it. There are hundreds of RAV4 EVs over 10,000 miles on the
same batteries.
I did over 17,000 miles on Panasonic lead-acid batteries in my 1997 EV1,
and could have done a lot more if GM hadn't taken it away from me. Sign
me up for the club.
Tom Dowling - from Treo 600
...... Original Message .......
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:09:06 -0500 "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>
>It's a common question we all get asked. "How fast can it go?" If someone
>asks you that, and your EV can go up to 70, 80 or 90 mph and people just
say
>"Oh", we can say, "If you want to see some EVs that can go over 100 mph
>check out the 100 mph Club on the NEDRA site".
>
>Along these lines how about the 10,000 mile club , for people who have
>driven over 10k on the same set of batteries. Somebody who wants to set up
a
>web site on this ? It could be a little more lax on proof , any way out
>claims would need verification , each entry could tell a little about the
>setup ,or a 100 mile club , for those who have driven over 100 miles on a
>charge.
>
>Steve Clunn , with 11,000 miles on my golf cart battered Mazda pu ,
>
>
>
>
>
>Chip Gribben
>NEDRA Webmaster
>http://www.nedra.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
I am not THAT old, but back when I was a grease monkey in an AAFES garage
(1988) I would have to fill dry batteries with acid, as they were shipped
and stored without any acid in them.
David C. Wilker Jr.
Yes, many batteries are still shipped "dry charged". It is great for
slower moving part numbers. At NAPA virtually all our motorcycle
batteries, tractor batteries, particularly uncommon car models were shipped
dry. This basically takes shelf life of of the question. We had a couple
of customers that used some odd size batteries in some sort of construction
equipment so I got a lot of practice filling batteries.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nothing smells. He got into solar, got tired of building stuff that
wasn't BEVs. And maybe a little tired of waiting for a battery that
would make it all happen at a reasonable price. I would be tired after
15 years or so.
When I left Solectria in August, he was staying late building PV
inverters and very enthusiastic about it. And the engineering staff
that he took with him is very capable. Heck, the engineering staff at
Solectria/Azure is still very capable, IMO.
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 7:55 PM, David Roden wrote:
From the Solectria news release:
James Worden, founding shareholder and CEO of Solectria, will
independently pursue opportunities in the renewable energy sector
and become a member of the Azure Dynamics Advisory Board.
Something smells funny here ...
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world
with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
-- H L Mencken
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am not THAT old, but back when I was a grease monkey in an
> AAFES garage (1988) I would have to fill dry batteries with
> acid, as they were shipped and stored without any acid in
> them.
I'm also not ~that~ old, and had the same experience while working in
garages in the 80's. Flooded SLI batteries were delivered dry and were
filled with acid only when sold to a customer. I believe that storing
them dry like this improved the shelf life (i.e. they would keep
"indefinitely" without sulfating or needing top-up charges).
I believe that the last time I put a battery in my motorcycle (only a
couple years ago), it was the same situation; the store had to fill it
with acid before handing it over. I believe the batteries are 'dry
charged' so that they are "mostly" usable once the acid is added,
however, topping them up fully before use is probably advisable.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Dave"
>in a AAFES garage (1988) I would have to fill dry batteries
>with acid, as they were shipped and stored without any acid
>in them.
Was there any "special procedure" used to get them to take
their initial charge? Or just charge them up like normal?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. But you may want at least two speeds forward anyways, as an AC
motor with a single speed cannot emulate the flexibility of a
multispeed transmission. It can get fairly close, but the tradeoff is
needing a higher current rated inverter. Which is expensive. A
Solectria AC20Gtx equipped Force with a 600A DMOC (controller) is much
more satisfactory in climbing steep grades and keeping up with traffic
than a 400A DMOC. EVermont has one. I haven't driven it but have heard
how nice it is.
PS, anyone check out the sole privately owned Sunrise up for sale on
eBay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&category=6737&item=4527085701
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Carl Clifford wrote:
Easy question for those more knowledgeable than myself:
Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words, if I build an AC
conversion w/out a transmission will I be able to back up?
I know the arguments against doing this, just curious about this
detail.
Thanks in advance
Carl Clifford
Denver
;-| grinless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought one last week at pep boys. they still
sell the motor cycle batteries that way.
Gadget
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am not THAT old, but back when I was a grease
> monkey in an AAFES garage
> (1988) I would have to fill dry batteries with acid,
> as they were shipped
> and stored without any acid in them.
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> "I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a
> process of elimination"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:03 PM
> Subject: building your own batteries
>
>
> > Was anyone on this list around in the 1950's or
> earlier?
> > Someone once told me that in the 1950's if you
> went into an
> > auto parts store to buy a new battery, the battery
> case was
> > dry, and they had to fill it with acid and then
> "jump start"
> > the battery to get it to be able to take an
> initial charge.
> > Anyone remember this or know more details about
> it?
> >
> > Also either during that time, or the during
> decades before,
> > there were these ~1 foot square glass containers
> used for
> > radios (out in the country where their weren't any
> power
> > lines yet, seems like a windmill was used to
> charge the
> > battery). Apparently, it had some sort of lid and
> plates
> > and you filled them with acid. Anyone ever seen
> one of
> > these? Any pics? I've seen the glass containers
> before,
> > but not the rest of the components.
> >
> >
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assure you they are still there. I called twice this week. When I was
there, I saw several DMOCs from that were bought off eBay get
reprogrammed...
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Charles Whalen wrote:
Apparently Solectria no longer exists as a company; they recently had
their remaining inventory bought out by a company up in Canada.
That's probably why they don't respond to emails and phone calls,
being in the process of winding down their operations.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
Has anyone had any success getting Solectria to reprogram their
controller?
They never respond to my emails and when I called them, they just
told me
to email them (sigh).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After filling them up with acid, they usually had enough of a "charge" to
start the car and go.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: building your own batteries
>From: "Dave"
in a AAFES garage (1988) I would have to fill dry batteries
with acid, as they were shipped and stored without any acid
in them.
Was there any "special procedure" used to get them to take
their initial charge? Or just charge them up like normal?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Seth Allen"
>PS, anyone check out the sole privately owned
>Sunrise up for sale on eBay!
Starting bid: US $85,000 !!!!!
Is that justified?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes I have bought plenty of motorcycle batteries that way. I have also bought
auto batteries that were just filled before purchase. I was told that adding
the acid puts the battery at about an 85% state of charge. A good dealer would
finish charge them for you but most would simply let you finish charge them
with the auto electrical system. (Would that be too fast for a
finish/commissioning charge?) When putting acid in my own motorcycle batteries
I would finish
charge with a 2A trickle charger.
Rick Miller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Justified? I don't know, but I heard the selling price was ~3x that.
Not a reliable number or memory, though.
That is the only one I have never seen, AFAIK. I have seen the other
two, (and driven one of them), so there sure are a collector's item, in
that they are rare.
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 9:14 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
From: "Seth Allen"
PS, anyone check out the sole privately owned
Sunrise up for sale on eBay!
Starting bid: US $85,000 !!!!!
Is that justified?
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Solectria does very much still exist, at the same location. They are not
"winding down". We have been assured that the merger is a growth measure
combining complementary strengths of the two companies, and we have been
told that it should have no effect on our situation as North American
distributors for consumer conversions, or product availability.
It HAS affected communications somewhat, as everyone is temporarily
involved in extra meetings, etc., involving the merger.
Regarding the Smart EV, Solectria systems were intended to be used in these
by Panoz. We looked into this for a customer (not Zap). Solectria said
that the system was a very tight fit. At this point, programming for the
Saft battery pack would be a major engineering issue that they would not
take on for a single conversion. It would have to be for a production
situation.
If you are interested in reprogramming for some other battery type, get me
the details on your model of controller and the battery pack, and I'll see
what I can find out for you.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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>From: "Seth Allen"
>Justified? I don't know, but I heard the selling price was
>~3x that.
$255,000?
Why didn't Solectria go with a DC solution instead?
Why do they appear to like AC so much?
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Because when mass produced, the brushes don't wear out, are about the
same price as DC and you get regen, no brush flashover, they spin to
crazy RPMS, you get reverse. You can run about any voltage you want.
The downside is making a inexpensive controller, but there was a lot of
progress made in that area where the benefits are only now being
realized. Of course the federal funding for (I think it was) FutureCar
has long since dried up (this controller R&D wasn't a Solectria thing).
The expense of that car had nothing to do with AC drive. The fact that
a whole car was made and crash tested and only 3 fiberglass bodies were
made, probably figures into the price. And I have no idea if that is
the real number.
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:05 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
From: "Seth Allen"
Justified? I don't know, but I heard the selling price was
~3x that.
$255,000?
Why didn't Solectria go with a DC solution instead?
Why do they appear to like AC so much?
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Roger, I don't believe Chris was talking about battery just for
drag racing application, but this doesn;t matter.
Peter summarized it much better than I could - if your
"arguments" are valid, this would be done by now.
(A single guy with cobalt battery invention is rather
exception).
What's *your* excuse for not doing it?
We've heard Chris' and David's.
Get serious.
Victor
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Fine. I *want* to built something in my garage to get me
to Mars. Really want. According to you I should label anyone
a pessimist who will tell me this is unrealistic.
THe trick is to draw the line between what is really
unrealistic and what is difficult enough for plain mortal not
to bother because efforts will not worth outcome.
Something that will get you to Mars is a much more complex assembly than
a lead acid battery, and requires expertise in several different
disciplines. Drawing a line is reasonable, and I think it is clear that
building a interplanetary vehicle and building a lead acid battery are
clearly on different sides of that line. ;^>
If someone builds battery parts for you and you bolt them
together, you are not building a battery.
As people building cars and planes don't fabricate
engines (lathe pistons etc) - they put together
parts from kits sold by others. Therefore it is possible.
If someone will produce "EV LiIon bettery kit",
that would make fabricating battery in your garage
doable, just like conversion car itself - you don't fabricate
any parts of a car - you buy them and make fit.
This is just getting silly. How far do you want to take it? Perhaps
nobody really builds anything since none of us fabricates the raw
materials from random atomic particles; by your logic we all just
assemble things from parts provided by others.
Chris is not suggesting building a better battery than a battery
manufacturer can, he is suggesting building a battery that is optimised
for EV drag racing because this market is so small that battery
manufacturers aren't building product suitable for it.
Any of us can build a battery in our garage with just a potato and a
couple bits of metal for electrodes. It isn't a particularly useful
battery, but it certainly doesn't require a clean room. I think the
suggestion of approaching a battery manufacturer to do a run of
batteries tailored to the specific needs of EV drag racing isn't a bad
one, but expect that for it to be successful one would need to be
prepared to commit to a fairly large volume purchase which would require
getting pretty much every EV racer behind you with a confirmed order at
the very least. On the other hand, the battery manufacturer is probably
a good source for the raw materials. Certainly one can buy the required
sulfuric acid from them, perhaps one can buy the paste for the plates
too.
However, all we are talking about is building a battery that will
survive higher current discharge than the garden variety batteries we
can typically buy. One candidate is the Hawker Cyclon cell specially
developed/modified for the UK RHOLAB project. This is a 2V Cyclon
spiral wound cell with threaded terminals brought out at *both* ends of
the cell vs terminals at just one end on the standard product. Given
that Hawker has produced a (small) number of these cells already, it
might not be totally unreasonable that they might produce more if asked
(and if money accompanied the request). The standard BC size Cyclon has
threaded terminals at one end only, weighs 0.75lb, and is rated 25Ah
C/10, 1335A short circuit and 1.5 milli-ohms internal resistance.
Also, the Bolder TMF technology was purchased by GP (Gold Peak)
Batteries in 2001 and is used in their SecureStart line of automotive
battery jumper starters. It appears they offer 3 models, but all
contain the same set of 6 9/5 sub-C size TMF cells rated 900A for 5s and
1Ah. I don't have a weight on the TMF cells alone, but the smallest
SecureStart is only 1.3kg (<3lbs) total. Given that these cells appear
to be production items, it might be possible to convince GP to sell the
TMF cells directly rather than buying large numbers of SecureStart
devices and stripping the cells out.
For those interested, here is a picture of the 12V TMF pack out of a
Bolder SecureStart:
<http://www.ducati.net/arch/ss/battery01.jpg>
Given that the author of the page this picture comes from
<http://arch.home.texas.net/ss/history.html> states that using this TMF
pack in place of a stock motorcycle battery can save 10lbs, this cute
little 900A for 5s 12V battery probably weighs about 1-2lb. He also
notes that the SecureStart cost him about $100 at Sears. It is
interesting that if one used these packs, the TMF cells are
'preassembled' into 12V modules capable of 900A for 5s, saving one the
hassle of figuring out how to connect them up. Of course, if one did
their own interconnects, more than 900A for 5s might be available.
Cheers,
Roger.
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>From: "Seth Allen"
>You can run about any voltage you want.
>The downside is making a inexpensive controller,
Is it an impossibility to have a Zilla type AC controller
that would work with any AC motor?
I've always felt the reason for the expense and complexity
of AC controllers was because they made them "too fancy"
(lots of software control) and also they tried to get the AC
controllers to do everything imaginable. Regen, built in
charger, blah, blah, blah.
Has there ever been a general purpose AC controller?
If I ever had a AC setup, I'd want a Zilla type controller
for the motor. I don't want to mess with regen. I've got a
transmission for reverse. I don't mind the charger being
seperate.
What type of potential does an AC setup have in the 1/4 mile
enviroment vs DC?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
. I think the
suggestion of approaching a battery manufacturer to do a run of
batteries tailored to the specific needs of EV drag racing isn't a bad
one, but expect that for it to be successful one would need to be
prepared to commit to a fairly large volume purchase which would require
getting pretty much every EV racer behind you with a confirmed order at
the very least.
I was thinking today while wireing up some excides orbital's that if they
would have the posts a little closer to the inside of the battery like the
yellow tops , it would make a much safer ev battery . Where the post are
now is close to the edge where they could hit on something and fitting them
in a battery box so they don;t tuch is not easy somthings .
Given that the author of the page this picture comes from
<http://arch.home.texas.net/ss/history.html> states that using this TMF
pack in place of a stock motorcycle battery can save 10lbs, this cute
little 900A for 5s 12V battery probably weighs about 1-2lb. > Cheers,
900 amps from that little battery , , ,,,,,,,, well if its on the net It
must be true .
steve clunn
Roger.
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Yes. But you may want at least two speeds forward anyways, as an AC
motor with a single speed cannot emulate the flexibility of a
multispeed transmission. It can get fairly close, but the tradeoff is
needing a higher current rated inverter. Which is expensive. A
Solectria AC20Gtx equipped Force with a 600A DMOC (controller) is much
more satisfactory in climbing steep grades and keeping up with traffic
than a 400A DMOC. EVermont has one. I haven't driven it but have heard
how nice it is.
Um? The Dolphin is rated at 200amps peak and runs very fine from zero up
to 80mph. While true it's not a great idea to take the system above 80
much (due to possible overspeed) it will go to 100mph with no problems.
Lack of gears is nice. Smooth ride overall.
Oh and yes: It does run backwards with no problem. Even will regen
backwards if you're really bored (tried it; works fine). The controller
however will limit power in reverse for you.
Chris
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Steven Coallier
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From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:54 PM
Subject: Attack Life, It Will Kill You Anyway
Who's tagline is this? I lost my note and I want to quote and give due
credit.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Dowling - remote" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA 100 mph Club Clarification
For the 10,000 miles on the same batteries club, you'd better specify lead
acid batteries. For NiMH batteries, it should be the 100,000 mile club.
There are already several RAV4 EVs eligible for that club, and many more
working on it. There are hundreds of RAV4 EVs over 10,000 miles on the
same batteries.
Yes 10,000 is going to be a big club, and would non ev's really be inpressed
with this ? , Jon liked the idea and said he would do a web page on this and
the 100 mile on a charge . Maybe he should just list the people who have
driven the furthest.
I did over 17,000 miles on Panasonic lead-acid batteries in my 1997 EV1,
Give me as much info as you can , battery weight to car weight , where they
shot when you where done. cost , cycles , and I'll give it to Jon and we'll
see what he dose, or you can e mail him your self , his e mail is on
www.grassrootsev.com . .
and could have done a lot more if GM hadn't taken it away from me. Sign
me up for the club.
Tom Dowling - from Treo 600
......
Along these lines how about the 10,000 mile club , for people who have
driven over 10k on the same set of batteries. Somebody who wants to set up
a
web site on this ? It could be a little more lax on proof , any way out
claims would need verification , each entry could tell a little about the
setup ,or a 100 mile club , for those who have driven over 100 miles on a
charge.
Steve Clunn , with 11,000 miles on my golf cart battered Mazda pu ,
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