EV Digest 4091
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) AC Motors and Reverse and the Dragstrip
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Electravan lives. My fourth Factory EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: White Zombie Range
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: building your own batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC Motors and Reverse and the Dragstrip
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Solectria / Sunrise was AC Motors and Reverse
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: building your own batteries
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: AC Motors and Reverse and the Dragstrip
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Smart EV
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Any news or updates?
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: building your own batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: building your own batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Smart EV
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Lester unfair to 12v battery.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Lester unfair to 12v battery.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
30) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
200 battery amps, I am pretty sure, but you are running 300V, so it is
possible that it is 200 motor amps. But I believe you have stated the
200A as from the battery before. The Force was half the voltage with a
similar battery current limit. Battery current has little to do with
motor current. That Force had a low (200?250?) battery amp limit so
the batteries would live. But with a 600A DMOC the motor amps were high
so it would have good acceleration. That's 600A peak not RMS, by the
way.
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:56 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Yes. But you may want at least two speeds forward anyways, as an AC
motor with a single speed cannot emulate the flexibility of a
multispeed transmission. It can get fairly close, but the tradeoff is
needing a higher current rated inverter. Which is expensive. A
Solectria AC20Gtx equipped Force with a 600A DMOC (controller) is
much more satisfactory in climbing steep grades and keeping up with
traffic than a 400A DMOC. EVermont has one. I haven't driven it but
have heard how nice it is.
Um? The Dolphin is rated at 200amps peak and runs very fine from zero
up to 80mph. While true it's not a great idea to take the system above
80 much (due to possible overspeed) it will go to 100mph with no
problems.
Lack of gears is nice. Smooth ride overall.
Oh and yes: It does run backwards with no problem. Even will regen
backwards if you're really bored (tried it; works fine). The
controller however will limit power in reverse for you.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All that fancy software does things like commutation, getting your peak
torque, and getting your efficiency. Reverse is free. For that matter,
software is amortized, but as you sell more units, the cost keeps going
towards zero as there is no material cost.
The controllers are pretty general purpose. In hardware they are
similar. That software specific to the motor they drive is what gets
the job done.
Siemens is the only inverter that I am aware of that has a charger
built in.
Personally, I think that the ability of an AC drive to hold a higher
power longer than series wound motor would make it very competitive in
a drag race. And no brushes to flash over. Figuring out how to get it
to work at very high currents, assuming that the motor properties
change drastically at high currents (I have been scolded for saying it
saturates, but it does change) would be a challenge that would require
a dyno to develop. I think about a nice 150-200 lb motor and a
900-1200V battery pack would be very exciting, with a base speed out
around 6000 rpm. Let it rev to 8-9000 rpm on a 215 frame motor. At 300
battery amps. Or a 600V pack with field weakening on the top end and
400-500 battery amps. Hardware for a 900V bus at 300A is more or less
available now. You can series string much smaller batteries if the peak
currents are only 300-500A. What does a 13Ah or 16Ah Hawker weigh? Or
sprial wound film batteries like Bolder batteries? Drag racing is about
batteries and constant full power from the tree to the far end. Series
wound can deliver the power off the line and out a long ways, but
correct me if I am wrong, you do eventually hit a wall. With the right
parts, I think you can do the same or a bit better with AC. And you can
probably be competitive with a bus of only 336V. And carry a light
pack, *so light* that you HAVE to regen to a stop so you have enough
energy to drive back to the pits.
I don't like HV DC. But if I wanted to go after records, that is what I
would do. 1700V, 1000A IGBTs are amazing things.
I don't make AC traction controllers or program them for a living. This
is opinion. But I used to work with them a lot.
Seth
On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:49 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
From: "Seth Allen"
You can run about any voltage you want.
The downside is making a inexpensive controller,
Is it an impossibility to have a Zilla type AC controller
that would work with any AC motor?
I've always felt the reason for the expense and complexity
of AC controllers was because they made them "too fancy"
(lots of software control) and also they tried to get the AC
controllers to do everything imaginable. Regen, built in
charger, blah, blah, blah.
Has there ever been a general purpose AC controller?
If I ever had a AC setup, I'd want a Zilla type controller
for the motor. I don't want to mess with regen. I've got a
transmission for reverse. I don't mind the charger being
seperate.
What type of potential does an AC setup have in the 1/4 mile
enviroment vs DC?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had a Think Neighbor, Lectra motorcycle, Vego scooter & now a Factory
put together, never had a gas motor Jet Electravan 750. Your basic Ford
Courier bought by Ford from Mazda. Sold to Jet as a glider. It drives a
little differently than my other EV's. It is a bit choppy at the low end.
SCR controller (an EV1) very audible. Low shift points and I have to shift
up on hills to 2nd to get more speed. It got on the Freeway suprisingly
well. It did register 50% after 5 miles of San Francisco driving. It
bounced back to 70% SOC. By the time I had done an 11 mile round trip it
was down to 40%. Should bounce back but the batteries are new US 125's. It
has an AC Volt meter(that just sits on 115v what does that mean?) an Ammeter
that has a redline at 150 amps. Flooring it is the only way to draw 150
amps. At 50 mph it draws 100 amps. It drives a lot like my old Datsun 1968
1300 Station Wagon Gas Car.. About the same shift points. Very simple.
Steers stright. I didn't do a thing to her except put batteries in.(well I
did derust the throttle linkage, Connect the back lights ground wire.and a
few more tidbits but now much) I put in a Trojan TM24 85 amp instead of a
larger 90 amp unit. The same size battery is 105 ah now instead of 90. The
Lester charges both batteries. I'm wondering if I can stop charging when
both ammmeters register 1 amp. I got the pack down to 1 amp on the first
charge but the 12v battery was still drawing 5 amps at that point. I hope
it won't hurt to float the pack while the 12v is comming up to charge. If
there are any other Jet drivers out there with the orginal setup please
comment. This vehicle only has 2400 miles on it. No wonder it fired right
up. Lawrence Rhodes.......
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
I love it. I'd love to do something like that as my "station car." I'd only
need 20 miles range,
tops (usually much less), but since I work at the offices of a publisher of
several well-known car
magazine (including two featuring your vehicles), I'd want something pretty
hot, both in looks and
where the rubber meets the road.
I'm thinking about something small, very light, rear drive, maybe even direct
driven, that would
look great with the right "look." Obviously the 1200's are hard to come by
nowadays. Can you
recommend another car in the same league? I had a '77 Corolla that would fit
most of the bill,
but I don't know if it would have the right "look".
Thanks.
Tim
---------
> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:28:00 -0800
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: White Zombie Range
>
>
> I've never run White Zombie at 288V before, so something's funky about
> whatever you found.
>
> I went to the page you referenced:
>
> <http://datsun1200.com/modules/nsections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=69>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe I've read that dry-charging is less common now for environmental
reasons. Once the mfg charged the battery, the electrolyte was drained and
(allegedly) discarded! Then fresh electrolyte was used when the battery was
filled at the dealer.
The last motorcycle battery I bought for AV acc battery use (several years
ago) was dry charged. It was also made in Taiwan. These days most MC
batteries that I see in the stores seem to come from China, where (from
what I've read) environmental requirements, such as they are, are often
addressed mostly with cash.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Americans are satisfied with things because they are large; and
if not large, they must have cost a great deal of money.
-- Lepel Henry Griffin, ca. 1885
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Feb 2005 at 23:43, Seth Allen wrote:
> Siemens is the only inverter that I am aware of that has a charger
> built in.
Doesn't AC Propulsion's?
> I think about a nice 150-200 lb motor and a
> 900-1200V battery pack would be very exciting ...
Especially if you got some ground faults. <g>
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
-- Emma Goldman
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:48 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> Any chance of Joe setting a new 48V record in Silverado this year? ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Why would Joe use a LowLY Zilla 2K when he has a Manzanita Micro Caveman
2500?
I am serious Joe's controller is a 2500 amp controller.
What he needs is a twin stack of Orbitals, and pull them to 1800 each. He
has never been able to hold the motor in full amps for the entire run.
Joe needs to up grade to a real drive train, not my hand me down from the
mid 90s.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe I remember someone telling me that, at one point, Solectria quoted
$200k to hand-build a Sunrise for him. I don't know whether that included
the NiMH pack.
Ooh, that Ebay page is hard to look at. Such a beautiful vehicle, so
impossible to fix if it breaks, so impractical and unaffordable. Sounds
like some relationships I know of. <grin>
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
Those four optimas I ran two years ago were only putting out 34 volts as I
crossed the 1/4 mile lights. The old Johnsons would be back up to 44 volts
at the 1/4 mile point when I was running them.
After I blew the controller a few years ago, I put a 1200 amp current limit
in the controller. I have the option of turning it up to 1800 amps by
changing one resistor. I have not exercised that option since I have not
been able to use all 1200 amps that I now have.
If I can put Woodburn on the calendar before my wife claims that date, I
might have a chance of making it this year. Does anyone know the date for
Woodburn?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:48 PM
> Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
>
>
> > Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Any chance of Joe setting a new 48V record in Silverado this year? ;^>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> Why would Joe use a LowLY Zilla 2K when he has a Manzanita Micro Caveman
> 2500?
>
> I am serious Joe's controller is a 2500 amp controller.
> What he needs is a twin stack of Orbitals, and pull them to 1800 each.
He
> has never been able to hold the motor in full amps for the entire run.
>
> Joe needs to up grade to a real drive train, not my hand me down from the
> mid 90s.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:32 PM 11/02/05 -0800, Tim wrote:
Hi John,
I'm thinking about something small, very light, rear drive, maybe even
direct driven, that would
look great with the right "look." Obviously the 1200's are hard to come
by nowadays. Can you
recommend another car in the same league? I had a '77 Corolla that would
fit most of the bill,
but I don't know if it would have the right "look".
Hi Tim (and all)
1970s cars are still relatively common here in Australia. Average vehicle
age varies where you are here, but in my home state it's something like 12
years old. I'm not suggesting that UAofA people buy cars from Australia
(right-hand-drive change amongst other problems), but there must be other
places where this is typical. What's the situation with buying a car from
Mexico? or are they all trashed too much?
I've been thinking about a '70s 'ute' (pickup) next after the Daihatsu, but
I've also got a 1990 Nissan Skyline wagon in need of a radiator and exhaust....
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a small
vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
At 09:32 PM 11/02/05 -0800, Tim wrote:
Hi John,
I'm thinking about something small, very light, rear drive, maybe even
direct driven, that would
look great with the right "look." Obviously the 1200's are hard to come
by nowadays. Can you
recommend another car in the same league? I had a '77 Corolla that would
fit most of the bill,
but I don't know if it would have the right "look".
Hi Tim (and all)
1970s cars are still relatively common here in Australia. Average vehicle
age varies where you are here, but in my home state it's something like 12
years old. I'm not suggesting that UAofA people buy cars from Australia
(right-hand-drive change amongst other problems), but there must be other
places where this is typical. What's the situation with buying a car from
Mexico? or are they all trashed too much?
I've been thinking about a '70s 'ute' (pickup) next after the Daihatsu,
but I've also got a 1990 Nissan Skyline wagon in need of a radiator and
exhaust....
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Feb 2005 at 0:49, Dave wrote:
> Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a small
> vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
The Sabb you're thinking of is the Sonnet, a sweet little sports car.
Coincidentally, I just saw one the other day, the first I've seen in years
here in Ohio.
Both the Sonnet and the Opel GT are pretty scarce, and I'm not sure either
one would make a good conversion because of the very small chassis sizes.
(I think there's an unfinished Opel GT conversion in the EV Photo Album,
though.) But they sure are distinctive looking.
Another rarity that might be fun to convert: a Volvo P1800.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My father used to buy Checker batteries 60's and 70's
when Checkers was part of Yellow Front Camping goods.
Anyway when we bought car batteries back then you got
them dry and added the electrolyte once it was in the
car. But they were charged enough to start a car, but
it was recommend to drive the car for 30 minutes to
completely charge it up. Seen the Glass ones in the
RCA museum which I don't believe is open anymore.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Was anyone on this list around in the 1950's or
> earlier?
> Someone once told me that in the 1950's if you went
> into an
> auto parts store to buy a new battery, the battery
> case was
> dry, and they had to fill it with acid and then
> "jump start"
> the battery to get it to be able to take an initial
> charge.
> Anyone remember this or know more details about it?
>
> Also either during that time, or the during decades
> before,
> there were these ~1 foot square glass containers
> used for
> radios (out in the country where their weren't any
> power
> lines yet, seems like a windmill was used to charge
> the
> battery). Apparently, it had some sort of lid and
> plates
> and you filled them with acid. Anyone ever seen one
> of
> these? Any pics? I've seen the glass containers
> before,
> but not the rest of the components.
>
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/11/05 7:56:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I think the
> suggestion of approaching a battery manufacturer to do a run of
> batteries tailored to the specific needs of EV drag racing isn't a bad
> one, but expect that for it to be successful one would need to be
> prepared to commit to a fairly large volume purchase which would require
> getting pretty much every EV racer behind you with a confirmed order at
> the very least. >>
Maybe a hi power SPEC.battery would be a good idea for ev drag racing,they
now have SPEC.nitro for top fuel.It sure would level the playing field...Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point, I had forgotten about them although how many they have
built I don't know. Not the thousands of controllers like Solectria or
Siemens.
As a note, lots of sales of Solectria parts went to China for EVs
there. Putting a small dent in our trade deficit. I heard there was a
big push to clean up China for the Olympics and this was a part of it.
Seth
On Feb 12, 2005, at 1:00 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 11 Feb 2005 at 23:43, Seth Allen wrote:
Siemens is the only inverter that I am aware of that has a charger
built in.
Doesn't AC Propulsion's?
I think about a nice 150-200 lb motor and a
900-1200V battery pack would be very exciting ...
Especially if you got some ground faults. <g>
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
-- Emma Goldman
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, they tried to buy my Henney Kilowatt, When I told them I was not
interested in stock, but wanted cash, the seemed rather put out. Oh
well....
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 13:35, Mike Chancey wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, at one point they also offered to buy almost ever decent EV on the EV
> Tradin' Post with stock. I think they did get one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey
> Webmaster
> EV Tradin' Post
> http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi- Sorry I haven't been able to send in more replies to everyone, but
my computer time has been limited lately. Today is a rainy day, so I
have a few minutes to spare.
DragonAmps, the little yellow bike, is in storage till April, when I
plan to install an Alltrax 48 volt hot-rodded controller. I've had a
series of equipment failures of Maugra twist grip throttle controls,
three in a row, but now I've got new potentiometers from Digikey. They
were supposed to be replacements for the original pot, but the shafts
are smaller in diameter, longer, mounting point is different and the
overall length of the body is off by 1/8". So I am in the process of
modifying the twist grip and the shaft of the pot. Hopefully it will
work.
FrankenDragon, son of FrankenBike, which I started last fall a month
before Woodburn, made a wimpy showing at Woodburn. I pulled its motor
and built another motor (which promptly failed). So I've gone back to
the original FrankenBike motor which has no name tag but looks much like
a 24 volt GE forklift motor. It seems to be a reasonable motor. But,
again, the twist grip is one of those that has failed.
FrankenDragon is also in storage until April when I hope to bring both
bikes out and get them ready for show in Lacey on May 7.
My current project is a 72 Volkswagon bug, which is undergoing a
ground-up restoration, modification and conversion to 156 volts. I'll
be running a large DC motor with a 1200 Raptor controller. The Insanity
Feature of this vehicle is that I am narrowing it 12 inches. The rear
suspension has been narrowed 12 inches and will be running on 10 or 11
inch slicks, not yet decided which. The front suspension was narrowed 7
inches and will be running 4-1/2 x 15 inch drag tires. The
undercarriage has been completely rebuilt and is ready to receive the
narrowed body and roll cage when that is ready. I have new aftermarket
pans for the floor, which was completely rusted out. And there is quite
a bit of body work to be done on the heater channels which rest on the
floor pans. Fortunately, there are a lot of aftermarket parts for VW
bugs. The current status of the body is that it is sitting in pieces in
the driveway, sawn down and ready to be reassembled 12 inches narrower.
At least one heater channel will need replacing on the bottom. All of
the glass will be replaced with 1/8" Lexan. I'm not setting any
deadline on completing this car - I don't need the stress!
In the process of narrowing the car, I'll be removing approximately 5
square feet of frontal area, which should improve the aero considerably,
and the process of narrowing the track will change the aspect ration
between the tread and the wheel base. This should give the effect of a
longer car.
Enough babbling for now . . . I'll post some pictures as they become
available.
- Father Time
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What are you all doing or currently working on in regards to
> your electric vehicle(s)?
>
> ----
>
> I'm still planning / researching. Anyone have anys links to
> Ammeter / State of Charge / Amp-Hour meters/gauges for a 300
> volt setup? I want to be able to know if the pack is
> charged up or not, and to what amount. Also when driving,
> how many amps the motor/controller is pulling from the pack
> and at what rate.
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Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...the battery case was dry, and they had to fill it with acid
> and then "jump start" the battery to get it to be able to take
> an initial charge. Anyone remember this or know more details
> about it?
Yes, as many have pointed out, this is still done. The good side is that
it makes shipping and storage easier. The bad side is the extra cost of
draining and drying it at the factory; then refilling it at the point of
sale.
> Also either during that time, or the during decades before,
> there were these ~1 foot square glass containers used for
> radios (out in the country where their weren't any power
> lines yet...
They may have been Edison cells, built in the early 1900's. They are
nearly immortal, built to be taken apart and rebuilt forever.
Rectangular glass case, clamp-on bakelite lid. Stack of nickel and iron
plates inside, separated by pig intestines, and bolted together.
Electrolyte is potassium hydroxide.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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David Roden wrote:
> I believe I've read that dry-charging is less common now for
> environmental reasons. Once the mfg charged the battery, the
> electrolyte was drained and (allegedly) discarded!
This would be stupid. The electrolyte of a new, freshly charged battery
is perfect to put in the *next* battery.
Of course, companies have been known to do stupid things before.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Carl Clifford wrote:
>
> > Easy question for those more knowledgeable than myself:
> >
> > Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words, if I build an AC
> > conversion w/out a transmission will I be able to back up?
>
> Short answer - yes, no problem.
>
> It runs backwards just as good as forward - as well
> it regens as good as drives (in either direction).
> Totally symmetrical machine (I should say "system").
Long answer -- it depends on the motor.
Like DC, AC motors are made in single-direction, and reversible
versions. The vast majority of AC motors are in fact non-reversible.
That's because reversing is not needed in most applications.
For a car, reverse is necessary. If you're building a car from scratch
and don't plan on having a transmission, then of course you use only
reversible AC motors. If you're building a conversion and the
transmission with reverse is already there, then you have the option of
using a non-reversible motor. It might save you some money, but won't be
quite as efficient.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Seth Allen wrote:
> Yes. But you may want at least two speeds forward anyways, as an
> AC motor with a single speed cannot emulate the flexibility of a
> multispeed transmission. It can get fairly close, but the tradeoff
> is needing a higher current rated inverter. Which is expensive.
Seth brings up a good point. It's not the motor; it's the *controller*
that is responsible for the wide power band of some AC drives.
If you want to go transmissionless, the motor needs to deliver
(approximately) constant horsepower over a wide range of speeds.
Constant HP out means constant power in. With a fixed battery voltage,
that means roughly the same battery current over a wide range of motor
rpm.
But, for *all* motors, AC or DC, voltage is proportional to rpm, and
current is proportional to torque. Low speed requires low voltage. High
torque (to get constant HP at that low speed) requires high current. The
inverter has to step the voltage down and the current up.
Suppose you are running at 1/10th of base speed. Sure; you may only be
drawing 100a at 300v from the battery; but the inverter has to deliver
30vac at 1000 amps to the motor! It needs six big transistors and diodes
sized to handle this kind of current!
The corresponding DC motor controller has the very same problem
delivering constant HP over a wide range. But, it only has *one* big
transistor and diode. Guess which one will be cheaper for a given power
level?
Now, the above is rather idealistic. The real situation isn't quite this
bad. There are mitigating circumstances with both AC and DC drives, and
designers take advantage of every trick to relieve the stress on the
transistors. For instance, a series DC motor produces more
torque-per-amp at high currents, so you don't actually need 10x the
current to get 10x the torque. For AC, no one transistor stays on for
more than 50% of the time, so it can spread the peak current between
several transistors.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Victor wrote:
>If someone builds battery parts for you and you bolt them
>together, you are not building a battery.
If someone builds parts of your ACRX and you just bolt them to an old CRX,
you are not building an EV :-)
Suddenly sounds silly, doesn't it?
Neon
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> FWIW, at one point they also offered to buy almost ever decent EV on
the EV
> Tradin' Post with stock. I think they did get one.
Hmmm. Buying up used EVs to spiff up and resell, lots of stock moving
around, why does this sound familiar? Oh, yeah, U. S. Electricar, aka
Solar Electric Engineering.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
Potentially in a full size pickup conversion, a 600 or
900(or more) volt pack could be installed in the bed. What
might the absolute upper limits to any currently available
DC motor be? Would that be due to arcing problems? What
are the upper voltage limits a Zilla could be scaled too?
Are these DC motors as advanced as they are ever going to
get? About what year did these motors peak out at?
I have the book "Armature Window and Motor Repair" published in 1920. It
speaks of interpoles, compensating windings, etc. I believe DC motors
were about as advanced as they were going to get in 1920, at least in
our power range.
I believe 900v would be the max. Beyond that I believe it is hard to
properly insulate everything, especially around the commutator.
600v is a pretty common value for traction applications (subway trucks)
I've been to a subway test facility that tested 600v motors, but they
were AC so I guess that's irrelevant.
Power electronics are readily available for well over 1000v. New silicon
carbide rectifiers will also help the situation in that regard.
Say you wanted 120kW @ 600v, that would only be 200 amps.
I'd personally be scared of anything I built that ran at 600v though. A
blue flashing light would be in order...
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
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--- Begin Message ---
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a small
> > vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
>
How about a British car? MGs and Triumphs of the era were pretty robust and
sporty. TR6, TR7, MBG
GT. Many options. Alpha Romeos too. I believe you can find one built on a frame
instead of
unibody, might handle the pack weight better. And there are lot's of parts
available. One concern
might be the Lucas wiring. You know the old joke, why do the British drink
their beer warm? They
have Lucas refridgerators. My apologies to our friends overseas.
Dave Cover
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I stopped charging last night at 153.6 (7.68 per battery) and 1 or less amps
on the 120vdc side of the Lester charging scheme. The 12v Aux. battery was
at 14vdc and still drawing 6 amps after 3.5 hours. The first charge was the
same. Seems the Lester is under charging the 12v system battery. Maybe a
loose connection in the Lester acting like a Rudman reg(apologies to Rich)
Something might be acting like a resistor. After sitting for many years
unused the Charger did blow smoke the first time I used it to charge 340
pounds of NiCad but did drop in amps then as usual. Any Ideas? Maybe a bad
Trojan? Maybe nothing. I was thinking of seperately charging the 12v after
the main pack was charged. Increasing the voltage to maybe 14.4.....Just a
little worried.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Lucas, Prince of Darkness! But seriously folks, if you are going to the
trouble to convert an ICE to EV, re-wiring the remaing car shouldn't be that
big of a deal.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a
> small
> vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
How about a British car? MGs and Triumphs of the era were pretty robust
and sporty. TR6, TR7, MBG
GT. Many options. Alpha Romeos too. I believe you can find one built on a
frame instead of
unibody, might handle the pack weight better. And there are lot's of parts
available. One concern
might be the Lucas wiring. You know the old joke, why do the British drink
their beer warm? They
have Lucas refridgerators. My apologies to our friends overseas.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:10 AM -0800 2-12-05, Dave Cover wrote:
How about a British car? MGs and Triumphs of the era were pretty
robust and sporty. TR6, TR7, MBG
GT. Many options.
OK, call me strange, but I've always wanted to electrify a Sunbeam
(or Hillman) Imp. I once drove one as a gas car and I must say it was
a hoot to drive!
Very light, very simple (single wishbone front suspension!) rather
small air cooled rear wheel drive car.
Here's a picture of one:
http://www.historicrace.fi/g0337.jpg
Yes, it would be hard to find, but you only need one! Back in the
80's I knew of 4 of them here in Kalifornia.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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> I stopped charging last night at 153.6 (7.68 per battery) and 1 or less amps
> on the 120vdc side of the Lester charging scheme. The 12v Aux. battery was
> at 14vdc and still drawing 6 amps after 3.5 hours. The first charge was the
> same. Seems the Lester is under charging the 12v system battery. Maybe a
> loose connection in the Lester acting like a Rudman reg(apologies to Rich)
> Something might be acting like a resistor. After sitting for many years
> unused the Charger did blow smoke the first time I used it to charge 340
> pounds of NiCad but did drop in amps then as usual. Any Ideas? Maybe a bad
> Trojan? Maybe nothing. I was thinking of seperately charging the 12v after
> the main pack was charged. Increasing the voltage to maybe 14.4.....Just a
> little worried.......
> Lawrence Rhodes
How 'bout turn off the Lester and use a 12V charger directly to the aux batt?
PS - title of the post sounds like someone ready to form a picket line.
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Are these DC motors as advanced as they are ever going to get?
> Pretty much.
(and I would add) ...because people have assumed there is no room for
improvement, and so have stopped trying.
>> About what year did these motors peak out at?
> Hmmm, 92 maybe 93? That of course would be 1892.
No; it's not that bad!
Plain old brushed DC motors were still a hot R&D topic into the 1950's.
Until the transistor was invented, mechanical/electrical/magnetic
improvements were "the way to go" to improve overall motor performance.
I.e. you got all your gains from the motor itself, not the circuits
driving it.
> There's not a lot of innovation you can do with a series wound DC
> motor. The big ones are relatively efficient and there's not much
> you can do to improve their efficiency except narrow your tolerances.
This is true for efficiency because it is already very good. 90%
efficient motors are straightforward to make.
But, there is a *lot* of room for improvements in other areas -- size,
weight, cost, torque/speed operating range, reliability, etc. are all
still improving.
Most recent improvements have come from better materials. Much better
magnets and magnetic alloys, much better insulation, etc. This allows
modern motors to be much smaller for a given horsepower, because they
can run hotter without damage.
Also, large strides are being made to reduce manufacturing cost through
automation. Motors are relatively complicated, and a lot of labor goes
into them. But there are automated factories that reduce this to nearly
zero. It ain't cheap labor that makes Mabuchi toy motors cost less than
$1!
Finally, computer aided design has allowed motors to be designed that
would have required too much trial-and-error effort to do by hand. This
is how they optimize the expensive AC motors used in EVs and other
high-performance applications.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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