EV Digest 4094
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Solectria Sunrise for sale
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) OT: Nanograss and battery technology
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Hydraulics and Conversions
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rev. Gadget Vibration Dampers
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hydraulics and Conversions
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Melting motors, was Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 1970s cars
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hydraulics and Conversions
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hydraulics and Conversions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Gadget's Conversion
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:30:17 -0500, Raymond Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We cannot change the motor size due to esthetics. Or I would have already
> put 40mt starter motors in. The motors are turning high volume, high
> pressure hydraulic pumps. Everyone seems to think torque is the key to
> making them work better.
Oh dear. This sounds like drag racing without the all the careful
scientific calculations done before hand (irony).
Use smaller displacement pumps and add a high pressure accumulator.
Use higher voltage series wound motors and allow them to run at high
RPM. Fit a powerful blower to the end of the motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> I ~think~ this thread spun off from the drag racing battery
> discusison, hence my impression that the contemplated goal
> was to build batteries more optimised for drag racing than
> what one can readily buy.
That's what I thought, too. Thus my comments were along these lines.
> It is quite feasible to build a lead acid battery in one's garage,
> and a clean room environment is not necessary. Period. You think
> it is a silly idea, and that is fair enough, but that does not
> make it impossible. Nor does the fact that no-one on this list
> has yet been motivated to try building their own battery make it
> impossible.
I agree completely. A person (or company, or society as a whole for that
matter) tends to pick ONE technology for problem-solving. They then
ignore or even attack all OTHER solutions to that problem. We
specialize.
So, the guy who builds cars does not also build motors. The one who
builds motors doesn't build controllers. The ones who build controllers
don't build batteries. Etc.
Sure, there are still a few generalists; Leonardo DaVinci types that can
excel in many fields. But most of us are only really good at a few very
specialized things.
As it happens, everyone on the EV list seems to be mechanically or
electrically oriented. No chemists or electrochemists. Thus, we don't
hear from the battery builders.
> Another, also quite serious, suggestion is that rather than building a
> battery from the ground up, if the concern is primarily peak current
> capability and interconnect robustness, it might be more practical to
> take a mostly suitable battery, like the 13 or 16Ah Hawker, saw the lid
> off and beef up the cell interconnects to address their shortcomings,
> and then reseal the battery.
Here's a thought. Just for racing, open the top of your batteries, and
pour some liquid on top of each cell to flood the interconnects and so
cool them.
You could use 1300 SG electrolyte. Add it before the race, remove it
soon afterwards and before charging. Otherwise, it will make a terrible
mess when it starts gassing near full charge. Also, the excess acid will
short across the tops of the cells, and cause a high self-discharge
rate.
You could use oil. This won't mix with water, so it is easier to remove.
However, you don't want to ever have a low water level such that the
plates are exposed, or the oil will get into the separator and plates,
wrecking them.
You could use a fluorocarbon; they won't mix with water, and won't wet
the plates or separator. It will simply evaporate away when given the
chance (or suck it out with a vacuum pump; it boils away and comes out
as vapor). But they are bad for the environment.
In any case, there's no way you are going to melt an interconnect that
is submerged in liquid!
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[try 2 as the first send didn't seem to go through last night]
I received the following e-mail two days ago and just before losing my
internet connection told the seller I'd forward it to the EV list. As
you all have discovered by now he has listed this bit of history on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?&item=4527085701
as well as on the EV Trading Post
http://www.evtradingpost.com
Note his e-mail below confirms the original price and has his address to
respond to directly as he is not on the EV list
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Solectria Sunrise for sale
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:14:08 -0500
Hello,
I want to sell a Solectria Sunrise vehicle. Do you know who may be
interested?
Make: Solectria Sunrise
Description: Purchased used in 2000 with 5,000 miles. Bought as a
demonstration vehicle, but never used it. It was placed in a storage
building for last 5 years. Now we are moving out of building and must
sell. We purchased the vehicle for $250,000. Now must sell, asking
$100,000. Will negotiate. Vehicle does not come with batteries.
Richard Leveille
eVionyx Inc.
<http://www.evionyx.com/>
6 Skyline Drive
Hawthorne, NY 10532
Ph 914-798-3732
Fx 914-345-0115
e-mail <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---------------
NOTE: I know nothing about the seller or this car!
And yes, he will be listing it on the EV Tradin' Post.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't using a sniping service illegal on eBay? If it isn't, it should be
illegal, IMHO.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
> The idea of an auction is to exploit human nature to be competitive,
> otherwise you'd just do a sealed bid auction.
>
> With this human nature in mind, it is of no benefit to you to enter a
> bid on ebay any sooner than you have to. Bidding early just gives
> others more time to outbid you. The trick is to use one of the
> sniping services (http://www.esnipe.com or http://www.ezsniper.com)
> that will enter your bid in the last few seconds.
>
> The sniping services will make auctions more like Mark's ideal --
> people will enter their max bid into the sniping service, and there
> will be a flurry of activity in the last few seconds, with no time to
> up your bid. It'll be de facto a sealed bid auction then.
>
> EV content: I bid on one of the "Naked Gun" Fieros on Ebay, and got
> outbid with about a minute to go by something like $20.
>
> --- Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> > The correct behavior on ebay is to bid the maximum you're willing
> > to pay
> > and be done with it. However, most bidders do not completely grasp
> > the
> > proxy system (or at least don't bid like they do). Most bids are
> > only a
> > few bid increments above the current highest bid and buyers
> > experiment
> > with higher bids after rexamining other bidders activities. The
> > more
> > likely a bidder feels their chances are to "save a bundle", the
> > more
> > likely they'll actually bid.
> >
> > In studies of ebay auctions the existence of a reserve price
> > generally
> > resulted in a lower final offer, and a much higher rate of auctions
> > that
> > closed with no bids at all. Its hard to explain, and not at all
> > logical, but most bidders do not want to enter their highest bid
> > right
> > away, and a "reserve not met" message is a strong damper on
> > bidding.
> > ...
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On some of the old B-52G aircraft engines, the hydraulic pump was a variable
pressure type with a wobble plate that would compress the pump cylinders in
various amounts, depending on the load required . Sorry if this sounds light
on specifics, but I AM old and forgetful. Anyway, the pump would run
continuously, being geared to aircraft engine, but would have variable
output.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:30:17 -0500, Raymond Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We cannot change the motor size due to esthetics. Or I would have already
put 40mt starter motors in. The motors are turning high volume, high
pressure hydraulic pumps. Everyone seems to think torque is the key to
making them work better.
Oh dear. This sounds like drag racing without the all the careful
scientific calculations done before hand (irony).
Use smaller displacement pumps and add a high pressure accumulator.
Use higher voltage series wound motors and allow them to run at high
RPM. Fit a powerful blower to the end of the motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's legal and why would it not?
If you're bidding on Ebay, you simply put the highest price you are
willing to pay for the item in your bid and walk away. That's it. If
someone "snipes" it from you it simply means they were willing to pay
more for it than you would.
Nothing wrong with that. The only problem is expectations get dashed
(you "had" it till the last second) and you don't have a chance to
"raise" your bid (but why didn't you bid higher in the first place)?
What sniping does is stop the bidding fever that happens on auctions. In
that case it's usually bad for the buyer because they bid way more than
what they otherwise would have.
Chris
Joe Strubhar wrote:
Isn't using a sniping service illegal on eBay? If it isn't, it should be
illegal, IMHO.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
The idea of an auction is to exploit human nature to be competitive,
otherwise you'd just do a sealed bid auction.
With this human nature in mind, it is of no benefit to you to enter a
bid on ebay any sooner than you have to. Bidding early just gives
others more time to outbid you. The trick is to use one of the
sniping services (http://www.esnipe.com or http://www.ezsniper.com)
that will enter your bid in the last few seconds.
The sniping services will make auctions more like Mark's ideal --
people will enter their max bid into the sniping service, and there
will be a flurry of activity in the last few seconds, with no time to
up your bid. It'll be de facto a sealed bid auction then.
EV content: I bid on one of the "Naked Gun" Fieros on Ebay, and got
outbid with about a minute to go by something like $20.
--- Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
The correct behavior on ebay is to bid the maximum you're willing
to pay
and be done with it. However, most bidders do not completely grasp
the
proxy system (or at least don't bid like they do). Most bids are
only a
few bid increments above the current highest bid and buyers
experiment
with higher bids after rexamining other bidders activities. The
more
likely a bidder feels their chances are to "save a bundle", the
more
likely they'll actually bid.
In studies of ebay auctions the existence of a reserve price
generally
resulted in a lower final offer, and a much higher rate of auctions
that
closed with no bids at all. Its hard to explain, and not at all
logical, but most bidders do not want to enter their highest bid
right
away, and a "reserve not met" message is a strong damper on
bidding.
...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:54:39 -0800, Joe Strubhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Isn't using a sniping service illegal on eBay?
No, I don't think it's illegal.
> If it isn't, it should be illegal, IMHO.
Why? :)
I get lots of bargain electrical bits for EVs this way. I wouldn't
think of placing a bid earlier than the last 10 seconds, so that
someone else can chip away at it.
I can't see how it's unfair to anyone, buyer or seller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:19:19 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On some of the old B-52G aircraft engines, the hydraulic pump was a variable
> pressure type with a wobble plate that would compress the pump cylinders in
> various amounts, depending on the load required . Sorry if this sounds light
> on specifics, but I AM old and forgetful. Anyway, the pump would run
> continuously, being geared to aircraft engine, but would have variable
> output.
It's called a variable swash plate pump. The plate is usually driven
by a special valve that maintains a preset pressure, so the flow will
vary in accordance with demand. IIRC, you want to use this with a
closed centre valve block (very little oil flowing when there are no
spools activated).
This too would be a good addition for Raymond's application, that way
the motor can be chosen so that it will run all the time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This just seems like something that folks on this list would be naturally
interested in. :^D
http://www.computerworld.com/news/2004/story/0,11280,96480,00.html?from=story_package
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly. This reminds me of a car I saw on "Junkyard Wars". They used a
hydraulic pump with an ICE engine to power 4 hydraulic motors at the wheels.
I am thinking an EV with this type of setup (Mandatory EV content) might
have some merit. The motor would run constantly, with the variation in speed
differential being controlled by hydraulic means. Any thoughts?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:19:19 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On some of the old B-52G aircraft engines, the hydraulic pump was a
variable
pressure type with a wobble plate that would compress the pump cylinders
in
various amounts, depending on the load required . Sorry if this sounds
light
on specifics, but I AM old and forgetful. Anyway, the pump would run
continuously, being geared to aircraft engine, but would have variable
output.
It's called a variable swash plate pump. The plate is usually driven
by a special valve that maintains a preset pressure, so the flow will
vary in accordance with demand. IIRC, you want to use this with a
closed centre valve block (very little oil flowing when there are no
spools activated).
This too would be a good addition for Raymond's application, that way
the motor can be chosen so that it will run all the time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:57 AM 2/13/2005, Dave wrote:
Exactly. This reminds me of a car I saw on "Junkyard Wars". They used a
hydraulic pump with an ICE engine to power 4 hydraulic motors at the
wheels. I am thinking an EV with this type of setup (Mandatory EV content)
might have some merit. The motor would run constantly, with the variation
in speed differential being controlled by hydraulic means. Any thoughts?
I always thought that making a small BullDozer EV conversion would be neat.
You WANT a lot of weight in a dozer, and for the (quite a few) people that
only need it for short jobs around the "farm", a 1 hour run time between
charges would be just fine.
I don't know if you'd want to drive each track with a separate
motor/controller, or use a hydraulic drive system with a single central
motor and hydraulic pump.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not so much about vibration, the transmission has
a rubber mount on the tail shaft and I would just feel
better if the whole thing where on rubber. The rubber
mounts I'm using are quite stiff and go under the
bends of the adapter plate.
Gadget
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for putting your project on the web.
>
> Why are you calling the bends in the adapter plate
> "vibration
> dampers?" vs. motor mounts? Isn't the electric motor
> smooth enough
> for vibration to be little worry?
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:57:00 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Exactly. This reminds me of a car I saw on "Junkyard Wars". They used a
> hydraulic pump with an ICE engine to power 4 hydraulic motors at the wheels.
> I am thinking an EV with this type of setup (Mandatory EV content) might
> have some merit. The motor would run constantly, with the variation in speed
> differential being controlled by hydraulic means. Any thoughts?
Indeed, such a system gives you infinitely variable "gear ratios" with
full torque available from stop. However, the pump/motor combination
does have losses - considerably more than you would get using a modern
variable speed motor control.
This is probably why diesel-electric trains have a motor and generator
rather than a hydraulic pump and motor.
Forwarders and excavators don't care much about efficiency, and they
have a hydraulic system anyway, so they use a hydrostatic
transmission. Lots of torque forever, low speed output (less
reduction gearing needed), very controllable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
no reason this wouldn't work
the only downside being the low efficiency of hydraulic motors in general
having said that for an occasional use or utility vehicles which are constantly
close to a charge point who cares
"John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 09:57 AM 2/13/2005, Dave wrote:
>Exactly. This reminds me of a car I saw on "Junkyard Wars". They used a
>hydraulic pump with an ICE engine to power 4 hydraulic motors at the
>wheels. I am thinking an EV with this type of setup (Mandatory EV content)
>might have some merit. The motor would run constantly, with the variation
>in speed differential being controlled by hydraulic means. Any thoughts?
I always thought that making a small BullDozer EV conversion would be neat.
You WANT a lot of weight in a dozer, and for the (quite a few) people that
only need it for short jobs around the "farm", a 1 hour run time between
charges would be just fine.
I don't know if you'd want to drive each track with a separate
motor/controller, or use a hydraulic drive system with a single central
motor and hydraulic pump.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<What we found in the motors, eight SAKO's, was the brush holder was melted,
arced through close to the positive brush holder where it is mounted, away
from the actual brush. The loop that holds the brush is riveted to the brush
holder plate, and there is a very thin insulator under it, typical Chinese
quality. When the 12volt motors were run on 48volts, the brush holders don't
seem to melt, it is only started happening when they do competitions and
jump to 84 or 96 volts.>>
It's not just over-voltage: my Chinese Junk scooter melted its brush-holders
(the brushes look intact) but also lifted a comm bar and caused some pitting. I
had replaced its dead controller with a 225A Curtis of the same voltage and
simply overloaded it. Should I just toss this hubmotor and shop for a new one,
or is there any way to have it rebuilt? I wasn't sure if motor shops can do
anything with hubmotors - they're inside-out, with the comm deep inside, so how
do they fix it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Why would Joe use a LowLY Zilla 2K when he has a Manzanita
> > Micro Caveman 2500?
>
> Well, I was under the impression that it was actually about 1800A (which
> Joe seems to confirm). Either way, the real question was that since I
> know he has a car that could use all (or nearly all) the amps the
> Orbitals will deliver, could he be in a position to set a new record by
> virtue of running a lighter weight pack and full amps?
>
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Those four optimas I ran two years ago were only putting out
> > 34 volts as I crossed the 1/4 mile lights. The old Johnsons
> > would be back up to 44 volts at the 1/4 mile point when I was
> > running them.
>
> So quit worrying about the 1/4 mile point already; at 48V only your
> 1/8th mile time counts anyway! ;^>
>
> What sort of current were you loading the Optimas or Johnsons to at the
> end of the 1/4?
>
> > After I blew the controller a few years ago, I put a 1200 amp
> > current limit in the controller. I have the option of turning
> > it up to 1800 amps by changing one resistor. I have not
> > exercised that option since I have not been able to use all
> > 1200 amps that I now have.
>
> Not use in the sense of not able to get it out of the pack, or not able
> to get the motor to pull it long enough to make much difference to your
> times?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let keep in mind the 2CM77 is a compound wound motor.. we can keep the amps
constant for the entier run, should Joe use the "constant amp" circuit.
So.comparing this motor and controllers...2 Fet based PWM controllers and a
Shunt feed back to the field PWM controller is very unfair against Series
wound motors.
The controller has made 2500 amps.. but Joe hurt it years ago, and then made
the current limit control. He can preprogram it for the peak amps that he
wishes to pull.
Yes I would love to see it pull 4 or 8 Orbs down the track with nice HOT
tweaked and ballenced racing tricks.
As I recall we don't have any data files. But in it's day, It could still
pull 500 + amps at 8000 rpm. And it could Regen enough to almost stand on
it's front tires.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Why would Joe use a LowLY Zilla 2K when he has a Manzanita
> > Micro Caveman 2500?
>
> Well, I was under the impression that it was actually about 1800A (which
> Joe seems to confirm). Either way, the real question was that since I
> know he has a car that could use all (or nearly all) the amps the
> Orbitals will deliver, could he be in a position to set a new record by
> virtue of running a lighter weight pack and full amps?
>
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Those four optimas I ran two years ago were only putting out
> > 34 volts as I crossed the 1/4 mile lights. The old Johnsons
> > would be back up to 44 volts at the 1/4 mile point when I was
> > running them.
>
> So quit worrying about the 1/4 mile point already; at 48V only your
> 1/8th mile time counts anyway! ;^>
>
> What sort of current were you loading the Optimas or Johnsons to at the
> end of the 1/4?
>
> > After I blew the controller a few years ago, I put a 1200 amp
> > current limit in the controller. I have the option of turning
> > it up to 1800 amps by changing one resistor. I have not
> > exercised that option since I have not been able to use all
> > 1200 amps that I now have.
>
> Not use in the sense of not able to get it out of the pack, or not able
> to get the motor to pull it long enough to make much difference to your
> times?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
I considered an Opel GT
I loved the GT when I was in high school/college, and while in college,
a friend had a non-GT opel (Kadett?) --- if I remember right, it was
basically the opel equivalent to the 1200, and 4 of us took it from
LaGrande (NE Oregon) to Davis, CA for some physics conference. Anyway,
the most direct route out is to cut diagonally across Oregon, with some
pretty twisty rodes, and I was amazed at how well that car handled *not*
even being the sporty one. He was zipping around 20mph corners well
over that (though I don't remember just how much over now --- that's
been about 30 years ago), and not only did it handle it well, it didn't
*feel* like it was doing anything out of the ordinary. I always thought
it was a shame they weren't more common...
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
I get lots of bargain electrical bits for EVs this way. I wouldn't
think of placing a bid earlier than the last 10 seconds, so that
someone else can chip away at it.
I can't see how it's unfair to anyone, buyer or seller.
Although I played with a program that did it for a while, I never
understood the point: you bid what you're willing to pay and the system
takes care of the rest. Whether you're sniping or not. All it does is
put a heavy burden on the ebay servers when the auction's nearing the
end. I never understood why they didn't do what other auction services
do: if there's a new bid in the last 15 minutes, extend the auction 15
minutes. That eliminates the problem entirely.
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Raymond...
As I sit here... the B&W TV is pointed at the brushes of a AvDC 8 incher..
I have Goldie's Ratpor 1200 and a fully charged pack of YTs behind it.
In my right hand I have the throttle to the Raptor.... I have the data
logging software , on this very monitor... It looks like with burshes 8 deg
retard I have 15 ftlbs more torque at 200 motor amps, but the brushes arc
...light up the TV camera at 300 to 400 amps.
Dropping the Brushes back to neutral Drops the torque by 15 lbs at 200 amps
But I can sustain about 600 motor amps before arcing is apparent.
Cliking the brushes up to 10Deg advance should raise my Arc limits even
higher, but drop the 1000 rpm 200 amps torque even farther.
What you need to do is view the brushes in action, Do you get massive arcing
at low rpm or massive arcing at full rpm. If you want to increase your
power at rpms add timing advance.
If you need the torque at low RPM retard the timing.
What ever you do, move the brushes around the commutator to minimize the
arcing. Plain and simple. There is a optimal timing position for your
brushes.. find it, and then make darn sure the %100 of the brush face is in
contact with the Commutator, before you ever put reall amps into the motor.
Break in the brush surface until all of them are prefectly smooth and whiped
from leading edge to trailing edge. Clean the interior of all brush dust,
scrape and clear the slots as best you can.
Look for arc damage to the holders.. that would be plasma marks and Rat
teeth marks on the trailing side of the brush holder. If your brush leads
don't turn purple.. your brushes are NOT being pushed and more amps can be
applied. If you are getting arcing and the leads are NOT getting hot, most
of your arcing is from timing issues... not too many amps.
Keep in mind once arcing starts, you can have a %30 to %50 drop in torque
for the same amps applied.
Your control stratgey... contactor control of the DC to the shaft locked
Hydro pumps..... This is easy, old and wastefull. But cheap.
A more advanced control may allow you to get more Hp from the same battery
weight, and consequsntly more life from your motors. It's also how industry
handles high Hydrualic pulse loads.
You wind your motors out by opening the hydro control valves, then use a
servo Valve to gate the pressure into the Rams, then reverse the flow with
power to yank the Rams back. A Servo valve cost is significant, but When you
are blowing up $300 motors in seconds.. cost gets realative fast.
I think a AvDC 6.7 or 8, and 120 volts a Zilla, and a RPM feed back
would allow for 100 + pulse Hp, and the added saftey of having the Zilla
keep the amps under control with motor voltage limits and programmable motor
voltage peaks... would allow for a Step function increase in the delivered
Hydrualic line power available. Having a 6.7 inch motor screaming at 6000
RPM. blowing oil around in a open loop just waiting to be gated into a
Ram... You can see that you could store a LOT of wound up power in a system.
Using a air oil acumulator and "recovery timing" tricks could harness the
down stroke energy for the next upstroke event.
I don't see how you can make real power with tiny motors, and single row
brushes.
Man this sounds like a real fun kinda competition.
OK DC current tricks.
think like a electron, the more copper the better, do all 3 batteries
have the same length and the width of copper??? does 3 batts worth of
current flow in the last link, or do all three links have the same amount of
copper from the battery to the stud? From the stud.. do you have enough
copper to have VERY little voltage drop to contactors and motor??? At 48
volts line drop is very significant. A 4 volt drop at 5000 amps is a %10
loss in voltage. BIG issues.
Bill has 200 plus volts of battery... 4 volts is almost not a issue. So
his math for copper sizing for his bike is use the very minimum to get the
job done. He can afford to loose a hand full of volts and still have hot
copper.. You can't.
If it gets HOT make it bigger.
In the big amps front.. small milli volt losses become 100s of watts of
losses. the more connection you have the more places to have Unperfect
connections. Making them share is a pain, and may defeat the bigger is
better concept. Making them share.. require making the interconnects be
symetrical in length and size, and having it all measured.
Setup a place where you can measure the amps from each string. And record if
they are all playing right. a single loose cable or 12 inches of 0/2 can
seriously unballence that string.
Gotta go More later.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
> First, thanks for all the responses. I guess the long story short didn't
> work. The Prestolite motor is being used in one of those hopper cars.
> Typically the guys are using SAKO brand off shore fenner replacement
pumps.
> Every guy we talked with at the last competition has to replace his motors
> after each competition.
>
> What we found in the motors, eight SAKO's, was the brush holder was
melted,
> arced through close to the positive brush holder where it is mounted, away
> from the actual brush. The loop that holds the brush is riveted to the
brush
> holder plate, and there is a very thin insulator under it, typical Chinese
> quality. When the 12volt motors were run on 48volts, the brush holders
don't
> seem to melt, it is only started happening when they do competitions and
> jump to 84 or 96 volts.
>
> We cannot change the motor size due to esthetics. Or I would have already
> put 40mt starter motors in. The motors are turning high volume, high
> pressure hydraulic pumps. Everyone seems to think torque is the key to
> making them work better. The SAKO's normally don't have undercut
armatures,
> and the armatures seldom fail. We tried a different set of motors, from a
> different manufacture that had undercut armatures. Most of the comm. bars
> were badly burned, melted, or missing. The motors were really abused, more
> than normal this time though. He was showing off for the crowd and played
> until destruction. Yes he has a good job and still lives with his parents.
> With these new motors the brush plate was melted also, but through the
brush
> holder directly under the positive brushes. At $300 set I would like to be
> able to get him more than one kick at the can with them. My initial
thought
> on the armature comm. bars was they may have blown because of the under
> cutting.
>
> Our first experiment with the SAKO's was to remove the shunt and add
another
> field coil, making it a 4 coil field. At the same time we had the coils
> rewound to be 6volt coils equal in power to the 12volt coils. No idea what
> was exactly done to them. The motors acted far better than the 12volt
coiled
> motors. Normally it took him 4 hits of the button to get the car to jump
> 26", at 84volts. With the 6volt coils he only had to hit twice to jump the
> same height, at 84 volts. With the new motors with stock 12volt coils, he
> had to hit it three times to jump 37". The new motors don't have a shunt,
> straight 4 coils.
>
> Using controls won't work, I don't think anyway, as there are two many
> variables happening at once. Mainly the hit has to be timed to how the car
> is dropping, and the pre load of the springs, which changes each time.
>
> About the brush timing, 25 years of building starters, and I haven't the
> slightest idea about what you are talking about. Interested in hearing
more
> though.
>
> The second motor I was speaking off, the 75ftlbs/11hp, I will try and get
a
> test sheet posted to the web. If memory serves me correctly the initial
pull
> of the motors is 3000+ amps at 12volts, tapering off to about 600amps by
> 2500rpm. The multiply by four as a general rule is scary. We had always
> thought 100% HP and 25% torque. I will need to address this quickly, as I
> need to work out gear ratios for my bike.
>
> Another question about the batteries for my bike. I am using 4 sets of
three
> batteries. Is there a difference between going positive to positive to
> positive on one set and then going to the negative on the next set or
taking
> all the positives individually to a stud, and then over to the negative on
> the next set of batteries.
>
> Thanks again for all the info. I hope I have made things a bit clearer
this
> time.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:43:05 -0800, Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I get lots of bargain electrical bits for EVs this way. I wouldn't
> > think of placing a bid earlier than the last 10 seconds, so that
> > someone else can chip away at it.
> > I can't see how it's unfair to anyone, buyer or seller.
>
> Although I played with a program that did it for a while, I never
> understood the point: you bid what you're willing to pay and the system
> takes care of the rest. Whether you're sniping or not.
But there's another factor at work - I call it "bidding frenzy". Yes,
you or I are sensible, we know how much we want to pay and no more.
However, 90% of the people browsing ebay seem to operate by bidding
just a small amount more than the current price. So it goes up a bit.
Then they do it again, or someone else comes along. You might say
that's fair enough, but when you're only bidding an amount that's $1
or $2 higher than the current price, where's your self imposed limit?
It's only ever "one more dollar".
So, they don't get a bargain, you don't get the item that you've bid a
reasonable price for.. and the seller gets a windfall. By not
placing your bid early, you can reduce this factor.
So yes, it's one slightly non-standard way of bidding counteracting
another (the rash, impulsive method!)
> All it does is
> put a heavy burden on the ebay servers when the auction's nearing the
> end.
No more so than the people endlessly refreshing the auction page to
see if they've still "got" the item!
> I never understood why they didn't do what other auction services
> do: if there's a new bid in the last 15 minutes, extend the auction 15
> minutes. That eliminates the problem entirely.
It just makes it a different kind of auction.. Ebay's formula seems
to be popular enough!
Anyway, drifted off topic now so I'll leave it :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:08:44 -0800, John G. Lussmyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I always thought that making a small BullDozer EV conversion would be neat.
> You WANT a lot of weight in a dozer, and for the (quite a few) people that
> only need it for short jobs around the "farm", a 1 hour run time between
> charges would be just fine.
> I don't know if you'd want to drive each track with a separate
> motor/controller, or use a hydraulic drive system with a single central
> motor and hydraulic pump.
I'm still waiting for someone to make an electric "tractor pulling"
competition tractor. Say, 600V of orbitals and a train motor. It
would beat all these superchargers and gas turbine efforts into the
dirt.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
>> This reminds me of a car I saw on "Junkyard Wars". They used a
>> hydraulic pump with an ICE engine to power 4 hydraulic motors
>> at the wheels. I am thinking an EV with this type of setup
>> might have some merit. The motor would run constantly, with the
>> variation in speed differential being controlled by hydraulic
>> means. Any thoughts?
richard ball wrote:
> no reason this wouldn't work the only downside being the low
> efficiency of hydraulic motors
They guy to talk to is Prof. Ernie Parker at Hennepin Technical College
in Minneapolis MN. He and his students have built many hydraulically
powered verhicles over the years.
He agrees that efficiency is your biggest problem. However, with the
right choice of components, it can be quite reasonable. They have had
vehicles that got very high gas mileage (with an ICE driving the pump).
An electric motor could do as well or better.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
>Maybe you're thinking of someone else? I have a '93
>Geo Prizm
>(aka Boring Jelly Bean with a Boring Interior with
>a Boring
>Curb Weight of 3200 lbs (projected)). Hi John ;-)
My mistake. Ralph Goodwin has the Spitfire. Kind of got the
names screwed up.
I am referring to the follwoing car:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/167.html
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/goodwin.html
--- End Message ---
