EV Digest 4093
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1970s Cars
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 1970s Cars
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Any news or updates?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 1970s cars and 60's
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Rev. Gadget Vibration Dampers
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 1970s Cars
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Peltier car cooling
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Peltier car cooling
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Gadget's Conversion
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 1970s cars
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Gadget's Conversion
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 1970s Cars
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
David Roden wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2005 at 0:49, Dave wrote:
>
> > Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a small
> > vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
>
> The Sabb you're thinking of is the Sonnet, a sweet little sports car.
> Coincidentally, I just saw one the other day, the first I've seen in years
> here in Ohio.
Just as an interesting sidebar....the unique aspect of the Sonnet was that it
had a V-4
engine.
>
> Both the Sonnet and the Opel GT are pretty scarce, and I'm not sure either
> one would make a good conversion because of the very small chassis sizes.
> (I think there's an unfinished Opel GT conversion in the EV Photo Album,
> though.) But they sure are distinctive looking.
The Opel GT is a great looking machine, for sure.
> Another rarity that might be fun to convert: a Volvo P1800.
Way too heavy, but yes, cool looking.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just talking to my neighbor about this very thing! He has wanted to
build a '55-'56-'57 Chevy replica EV. He has a plan started, using all
fiberglass body parts and an aluminum frame. We may be able to do something
like this, possibly this summer!
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: 1970s Cars
Hello to All,
I'm really enjoying this thread!
James Massey wrote:
At 09:32 PM 11/02/05 -0800, Tim wrote:
>Hi John,
>
>I'm thinking about something small, very light, rear drive, maybe even
>direct driven, that would
>look great with the right "look."
Exactly. I've converted newer cars and trucks, but compared to classic
machines from the
sixties and seventies, today's newer small cars and not-so-small trucks
are, well, a bit
boring. Front wheel drive is boring, jelly bean look-alike styling is
boring, 2800-3200
lb. 'small cars' are boring, and interiors that are over-stuffed and over
styled, are also
boring.
In contrast, the early seventies small cars have styling that still looks
hip and fresh
today. Just ask any backwards baseball cap kid with a coffee can muffler
tricked out Honda
what his ultimate street import would be, and in an instant you'll here
that familiar
three digit name '510', as in Datsun 510. The Datsun 510 was classic
looking the day it
was put on the market, and from '68 - '73 it was a super sales success.
Thanks to ex Carol
Shelby cohort Pete Brock, the BRE racing 510s totally rewrote the 2.5
TransAm Challenge,
where race prepped 510s were unbeatable and achieved legendary status.
I was at the 2005 Auto show recently, looking at all the colorful cool
model cars at a
brightly lit display and sales area. It was packed with older dudes and
dudettes as well
as the 18-25 year old import freaks. New this year, alongside the 55
Chevs, muscle cars,
and T buckets, were dazzling hot import models like tricked out Eclipses,
tricked out
Honda Civics, Nissan Skyline GTs, etc., but it was the BRE styled 510
Datsun models that
had the eye of all the young guys, and it was fun to watch them hold up
the 510 model and
listen in to them talking about how someday, they'd find a clean 510,
build up a muscle
four banger, and smoke them rear tires!
I couldn't help myself, and jumped in to tell them about my sorted past
with my many hot
510's. At first, they didn't quite know what to think of this bearded
older guy talking
the import slang and all, but when I mentioned 'electric Datsuns', they
kind of freaked
out, as one started to go off about this insane little white 1200 he'd
seen blow off
muscle cars at PIR....what fun!
Obviously the 1200's are hard to come
>by nowadays.
Sadly, this is true. The Datsun 1200 was Nissan's cheapest economy car, a
step down from
the 510 aimed at first time car buyers. It quickly became a throw-away
car, one that at
$1795 brand new in '71, saw a rough life in the hands of teenagers,
apartment parking lot
mishaps (1200s pretty much never saw garages), and tow-away repossessions.
In general, it
was merely a bash around appliance type car. Few have survived their
tormented lives and
most are now a recycled memory. Still, there are nuts out there who love
these little
cars, and at the many, many Datsun club picnics and show & tell events
around the US, you
will still find nice little 1200s, often for sale, too.
Can you recommend another car in the same league? I had a '77 Corolla
that would
>fit most of the bill, but I don't know if it would have the right
>"look".
Interesting that you mention the Corolla. Toyota didn't quite know what to
do about their
competitor, Nissan Motors, who back in the early 70's heyday, was kicking
Toyota's butt
with the Datsun brand of fun, good looking, great handling, spunky sporty
little cars,
minitrucks, and the 240Z. The Corolla served double duty in its two model
forms, the
Corolla 1200 and the Corolla 1600, the latter the most common that went
head to head with
the Datsun 510. The solid axle, pushrod engined, plastic faced slightly
over-styled
Corolla 1600 didn't have a chance against the venerable 510 with its
chiseled good looks
sporting a stainless steel trimmed metal grill, clean bodywork,
independent rear
suspension, and an overhead cam feisty 1600 motor. Proof....today, no one
collects and
lusts after an early 70's Corolla, but 510s have cult status. On the other
hand, the
cheaper Corolla 1200 sedan was Toyota's low priced car that was their
answer to the Datsun
1200...again, no contest as the fun looking Datsun soundly outperformed
the smallest
engined Toyota Corolla 1200, even though they had the same displacement.
The Corolla 1200
is still a fun little car however, and at a trim 1740 lbs. or so, isn't
too far off the
Datsun's sub 1600 lb. mark.
The Corolla 1200 is a great car to convert to electric power, as it's
roomy under the
hood, comes with rear wheel drive, has room for four passengers, and is
pretty nice
looking once you put on some trick wheels. No, it's not as cleanly styled
as the Datsun
1200 sedan, but it's still way cooler than today's economy sedans.
An electric Datsun 510 would be super cool, especially one with lots of
performance
designed-in. Clean 510s are plentiful, though the really nice ones are
commanding high
prices these days. At 2100 lbs. they aren't as light as a 1200, but they
are much
sturdier, have independent rear suspension, and with a few after market
and or Nissan
Comp. parts thrown in, can out corner expensive sports cars. A Datsun 510
2 door with the
BRE fender flares filled with low profile rubber and classic American
Racing 4 spoke mags,
lowered and fitted with competition front and rear sway bars, rock'n
tunes, and a Z2K,
twin 8's, and 240V of Orbitals could blow off pretty much any rice burner
you might
encounter on the streets, or for that matter, even a Camaro or Mustang
that might get in
your way!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone convert a `93 Toyota Celica GT 5spd yet? My son just snapped the
timing belt on his and it has been pronounced dead from collerateral damage.
180K on the car but body, paint, interior and running gear still in
excellent shape.
I believe its front wheel drive with transverse mounted engine. Good idea?
Or is it too old, heavy? He still owes $1,500 on it and i don't think it
will scrap for that much.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used the old plate of of the transmission and a
transfer punch to mark the holes. I also used a nice
new sharp bit in the drill press so it wouldn't walk.
I also have a bit of an advantage as I have a complete
shop with all the machining, welding and sheet working
equipment as well as a complete wood shop and
uphostery equipment. so this conversion will go really
fast.
Gadget
--- STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nice job but how did you get the holes in your plate
> in the right places.
> Steve Clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:07 PM
>
>
> >I got the bug the other day and decided to start a
> new
> > conversion. It's a simple one with a 6.7 inch ADC
> > motor, 14 orbitals and a Z1K. I'm going to put a
> big
> > 10K generator head in line with the ADC to use for
> > regen. I put todays progress on my website. the
> link
> > is below. I will be ordering some more parts on
> monday
> > to continue. I hope to use this as part of my
> sizzle
> > reel to pitch my new show.
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> >
> > http://reverendgadget.com/subpage3.html1.html
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> >
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wild! This should be great! Are there any pictures on the web?
--- Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> ...
> My current project is a 72 Volkswagon bug, which is undergoing a
> ground-up restoration, modification and conversion to 156 volts.
> I'll
> be running a large DC motor with a 1200 Raptor controller. The
> Insanity
> Feature of this vehicle is that I am narrowing it 12 inches. The
> rear
> suspension has been narrowed 12 inches and will be running on 10 or
> 11
> inch slicks, not yet decided which. The front suspension was
> narrowed 7
> inches and will be running 4-1/2 x 15 inch drag tires. The
> undercarriage has been completely rebuilt and is ready to receive
> the
> narrowed body and roll cage when that is ready. I have new
> aftermarket
> pans for the floor, which was completely rusted out. And there is
> quite
> a bit of body work to be done on the heater channels which rest on
> the
> floor pans. Fortunately, there are a lot of aftermarket parts for
> VW
> bugs. The current status of the body is that it is sitting in
> pieces in
> the driveway, sawn down and ready to be reassembled 12 inches
> narrower.
> At least one heater channel will need replacing on the bottom. All
> of
> the glass will be replaced with 1/8" Lexan. I'm not setting any
> deadline on completing this car - I don't need the stress!
>
> In the process of narrowing the car, I'll be removing approximately
> 5
> square feet of frontal area, which should improve the aero
> considerably,
> and the process of narrowing the track will change the aspect
> ration
> between the tread and the wheel base. This should give the effect
> of a
> longer car.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The tigers had the 289. The cars are pretty much the
same except for the tail fins. The one on the alpine
are a bit larger and IMHO much cooler. Here is a pick
of the tail fins.
http://www.sunbeam-alpine.co.uk/images/restproj4.jpg
I have one of these in white. I will put a single
speed ac drive system in the car. The car has a large
X frame under the floor about 7.5 inches thick. I plan
on building a new frame and cage and removing the old
floor to utilize this space for my battery storage. It
should make the thing handle like skateboard.
currently the car has no running gear whatsoever so I
get to start from scratch.
Gadget
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The biggest difference I know of is that the Tigers
> had the Ford 260 or 289,
> right? Maxwell Smart had one the first season ("Get
> Smart"), before he got
> the Karmann Ghia.
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> "I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a
> process of elimination"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:17 PM
> Subject: Re: 1970s cars
>
>
> > The red car in the scene is a tiger, I have an
> Alpine,
> > it looks the same except it has larger tail fins
> with
> > a slight backward slope to the taillights.
> >
> > Gadget
> > --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >> >Is the car Arnold uses in "Commando"
> >> >(tears out the driver's seat with his bare
> hands)
> >> >similar or was that a Tiger?
> >>
> >> Since I happen to have that DVD.. Here are some
> >> shots of
> >> that car:
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/1779/commando16fm.jpg
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/2355/commando26dv.jpg
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/3087/commando35ji.jpg
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/6821/commando46sb.jpg
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/2921/commando56qa.jpg
> >>
> >> http://img238.exs.cx/img238/4459/commando63ma.jpg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> >
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:06 AM -0700 on 2/11/05, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The smart doesn't use particularily exoctic materials, I don't believe
it's hand crafted(?), there is nothing particularly unique about it
manufacturing process.
So given that it has far less raw materials than your average "econobox",
I would naturally expect it to cost less, not the same or slightly more.
I don't know how the Smart is manufactured and I'm not sure what it's
made out of so I can't comment here. Volume may also play a part,
though.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for putting your project on the web.
Why are you calling the bends in the adapter plate "vibration
dampers?" vs. motor mounts? Isn't the electric motor smooth enough
for vibration to be little worry?
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I used the old plate of of the transmission and a
> transfer punch to mark the holes. I also used a nice
> new sharp bit in the drill press so it wouldn't walk.
> I also have a bit of an advantage as I have a complete
> shop with all the machining, welding and sheet working
> equipment as well as a complete wood shop and
> uphostery equipment. so this conversion will go really
> fast.
> > > http://reverendgadget.com/subpage3.html1.html
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motor was drawing about 550 amps in high gear at the quarter mile in
1999.
The motor was drawing about 700 amps when I shifted into high gear 13
seconds into the run. The eighth mile comes up about 16.0 seconds when the
motor was pulling about 650 amps.
In 1999, I was using all four gears and had all four batteries in the back.
In 2002, I was using only second and fourth gear and got a slightly slower
time because the batteries were sagging so badly (34 V at finish vice 44 V).
I did comparisons on using different combinations of gears (1,2,3,4 or 1,2,4
or 2,3,4 or 2,4) to see what advantage using each gear combination would
produce. The fastest was the 2,4 pattern by about a tenth second.
First gear always had a traction problem, so starting in second produced
slightly less wheelspin and eliminated one shift producing a better 60 foot
time. Second gear could handle the additional current and the battery
current was higher launching in second. The gearing advantage to third gear
was negated by the time required to make the additional gear change. Not
having a clutch contributed to the less than optimal shift time.
I did not run the ammeter instrumentation in 2002, therefore I did not get
any current plots.
I put two batteries up front to race in 2003 but illness caused me to miss
the event. Woodburn 2004 conflicted with another event so I was unable to
attend.
The car still has the batteries in it and it gets moved around the property
a few times a month. A few minutes with an air hose, a vacuum and a damp rag
could have it ready to run again. It would take an hour for two people to
change the batteries to Orbitals. If someone wanted to flat tow it, the tags
need to be renewed and it would take an hour to put the tow bar brackets
back on it. It would not take much to get it to the track.
If I run this year, I plan to shift sooner (2 to 4) to keep the battery amps
up and to have some data recording equipment on board to document any
changes in performance. I have also considered field weakening similar to
what is used in 48 volt electric hydroplanes.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Why would Joe use a LowLY Zilla 2K when he has a Manzanita
> > Micro Caveman 2500?
>
> Well, I was under the impression that it was actually about 1800A (which
> Joe seems to confirm). Either way, the real question was that since I
> know he has a car that could use all (or nearly all) the amps the
> Orbitals will deliver, could he be in a position to set a new record by
> virtue of running a lighter weight pack and full amps?
>
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Those four optimas I ran two years ago were only putting out
> > 34 volts as I crossed the 1/4 mile lights. The old Johnsons
> > would be back up to 44 volts at the 1/4 mile point when I was
> > running them.
>
> So quit worrying about the 1/4 mile point already; at 48V only your
> 1/8th mile time counts anyway! ;^>
>
> What sort of current were you loading the Optimas or Johnsons to at the
> end of the 1/4?
>
> > After I blew the controller a few years ago, I put a 1200 amp
> > current limit in the controller. I have the option of turning
> > it up to 1800 amps by changing one resistor. I have not
> > exercised that option since I have not been able to use all
> > 1200 amps that I now have.
>
> Not use in the sense of not able to get it out of the pack, or not able
> to get the motor to pull it long enough to make much difference to your
> times?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen relatively new shipboard DC systems running 3000 volts and 3400
amps. The commutator was ~12 inches wide and ~40 inches in diameter. I think
there were 8 pole pieces and brushes. The key to getting brushes to work at
a high voltage is to keep the volts per com bar to a reasonable number. The
com bars must about 10 to the inch making about 150 com bars between brushes
for about 200 volts per com bar.
Are you thinking of a blue light special at K mart?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
> I believe 900v would be the max. Beyond that I believe it is hard to
> properly insulate everything, especially around the commutator.
> 600v is a pretty common value for traction applications (subway trucks)
> I've been to a subway test facility that tested 600v motors, but they
> were AC so I guess that's irrelevant.
>
> Power electronics are readily available for well over 1000v. New silicon
> carbide rectifiers will also help the situation in that regard.
>
> Say you wanted 120kW @ 600v, that would only be 200 amps.
> I'd personally be scared of anything I built that ran at 600v though. A
> blue flashing light would be in order...
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I liked the styling of the RX-3 and Rotary Pickup truck by Mazda of
that era (thirst for fuel and early rotary reliability were issues).
Alas I have not seen one for many years, they have probably all been
smashed or rusted away.
The 1977+ Porsche 911's were galvanized and much more rust resistant
than the earlier 911's.
The 240Z would be my vote for best Nissan.
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm really enjoying this thread!
>
> James Massey wrote:
>
> > At 09:32 PM 11/02/05 -0800, Tim wrote:
> > >Hi John,
> > >
> > >I'm thinking about something small, very light, rear drive,
> maybe even
> > >direct driven, that would
> > >look great with the right "look."
>
> Exactly. I've converted newer cars and trucks, but compared to
> classic machines from the
> sixties and seventies, today's newer small cars and not-so-small
> trucks are, well, a bit
> boring. Front wheel drive is boring, jelly bean look-alike styling
> is boring, 2800-3200
> lb. 'small cars' are boring, and interiors that are over-stuffed
> and over styled, are also
> boring.
>
> In contrast, the early seventies small cars have styling that still
> looks hip and fresh
> today. Just ask any backwards baseball cap kid with a coffee can
> muffler tricked out Honda
> what his ultimate street import would be, and in an instant you'll
> here that familiar
> three digit name '510', as in Datsun 510. The Datsun 510 was
> classic looking the day it
> was put on the market, and from '68 - '73 it was a super sales
> success. Thanks to ex Carol
> Shelby cohort Pete Brock, the BRE racing 510s totally rewrote the
> 2.5 TransAm Challenge,
> where race prepped 510s were unbeatable and achieved legendary
> status.
>
> I was at the 2005 Auto show recently, looking at all the colorful
> cool model cars at a
> brightly lit display and sales area. It was packed with older dudes
> and dudettes as well
> as the 18-25 year old import freaks. New this year, alongside the
> 55 Chevs, muscle cars,
> and T buckets, were dazzling hot import models like tricked out
> Eclipses, tricked out
> Honda Civics, Nissan Skyline GTs, etc., but it was the BRE styled
> 510 Datsun models that
> had the eye of all the young guys, and it was fun to watch them
> hold up the 510 model and
> listen in to them talking about how someday, they'd find a clean
> 510, build up a muscle
> four banger, and smoke them rear tires!
> I couldn't help myself, and jumped in to tell them about my sorted
> past with my many hot
> 510's. At first, they didn't quite know what to think of this
> bearded older guy talking
> the import slang and all, but when I mentioned 'electric Datsuns',
> they kind of freaked
> out, as one started to go off about this insane little white 1200
> he'd seen blow off
> muscle cars at PIR....what fun!
>
> > Obviously the 1200's are hard to come
> > >by nowadays.
>
> Sadly, this is true. The Datsun 1200 was Nissan's cheapest economy
> car, a step down from
> the 510 aimed at first time car buyers. It quickly became a
> throw-away car, one that at
> $1795 brand new in '71, saw a rough life in the hands of teenagers,
> apartment parking lot
> mishaps (1200s pretty much never saw garages), and tow-away
> repossessions. In general, it
> was merely a bash around appliance type car. Few have survived
> their tormented lives and
> most are now a recycled memory. Still, there are nuts out there who
> love these little
> cars, and at the many, many Datsun club picnics and show & tell
> events around the US, you
> will still find nice little 1200s, often for sale, too.
>
> > Can you recommend another car in the same league? I had a '77
> Corolla that would
> > >fit most of the bill, but I don't know if it would have the
> right "look".
>
> Interesting that you mention the Corolla. Toyota didn't quite know
> what to do about their
> competitor, Nissan Motors, who back in the early 70's heyday, was
> kicking Toyota's butt
> with the Datsun brand of fun, good looking, great handling, spunky
> sporty little cars,
> minitrucks, and the 240Z. The Corolla served double duty in its two
> model forms, the
> Corolla 1200 and the Corolla 1600, the latter the most common that
> went head to head with
> the Datsun 510. The solid axle, pushrod engined, plastic faced
> slightly over-styled
> Corolla 1600 didn't have a chance against the venerable 510 with
> its chiseled good looks
> sporting a stainless steel trimmed metal grill, clean bodywork,
> independent rear
> suspension, and an overhead cam feisty 1600 motor. Proof....today,
> no one collects and
> lusts after an early 70's Corolla, but 510s have cult status. On
> the other hand, the
> cheaper Corolla 1200 sedan was Toyota's low priced car that was
> their answer to the Datsun
> 1200...again, no contest as the fun looking Datsun soundly
> outperformed the smallest
> engined Toyota Corolla 1200, even though they had the same
> displacement. The Corolla 1200
> is still a fun little car however, and at a trim 1740 lbs. or so,
> isn't too far off the
> Datsun's sub 1600 lb. mark.
>
> The Corolla 1200 is a great car to convert to electric power, as
> it's roomy under the
> hood, comes with rear wheel drive, has room for four passengers,
> and is pretty nice
> looking once you put on some trick wheels. No, it's not as cleanly
> styled as the Datsun
> 1200 sedan, but it's still way cooler than today's economy sedans.
>
> An electric Datsun 510 would be super cool, especially one with
> lots of performance
> designed-in. Clean 510s are plentiful, though the really nice ones
> are commanding high
> prices these days. At 2100 lbs. they aren't as light as a 1200, but
> they are much
> sturdier, have independent rear suspension, and with a few after
> market and or Nissan
> Comp. parts thrown in, can out corner expensive sports cars. A
> Datsun 510 2 door with the
> BRE fender flares filled with low profile rubber and classic
> American Racing 4 spoke mags,
> lowered and fitted with competition front and rear sway bars,
> rock'n tunes, and a Z2K,
> twin 8's, and 240V of Orbitals could blow off pretty much any rice
> burner you might
> encounter on the streets, or for that matter, even a Camaro or
> Mustang that might get in
> your way!
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:24:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:
> I built a chilled water seat cooler for my first car oh so many years ago.
> It involved a heat exchanger in the suction line of the car's AC and a
> grid of tubing under the seat upholstery. This was wonderful. The seat
> would cool even before the cabin started cooling off so the period of heat
> soak sweat time was minimal. This system would be so much simpler.
Why not use evaporation cooling combined with an heat exchanger?
In germany Waeco
http://www.waeco.de/de/produkte/frischluft_kuehlanlagen.php?artOrigID=1871&hirID=214
builds such a device for RVs. With 230 W input you can get up to 2.500 W
cooling. The only thing you have to do is to fill up water regularly.
Because of the heat exchanger the humity does not increase.
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
There is one more vital ingredient that we don't have around here - low
humidity. It's a rare summer day for the humidity to be under about 60%
and unheard of under 40. So-called "98-98" (98 degrees and 98% humidity)
days are the norm from about the first of July up into September.
I have a pretty good friend here who got sold a very expensive bill of
goods on a 50k sq ft warehouse he built. Someone convinced him to go with
swamp coolers on the building, despite my warnings to the contrary. That
place practically instantly became a swampy, muggy, stinky moldy mess that
was practically uninhabitable by humans or beast. Right now all the
evaporative guts are stripped out to make very expensive vent fans while
he contemplates the cost of retrofitting AC.
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:55:04 +0100, Emil Naepflein
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:24:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:
>
>> I built a chilled water seat cooler for my first car oh so many years ago.
>> It involved a heat exchanger in the suction line of the car's AC and a
>> grid of tubing under the seat upholstery. This was wonderful. The seat
>> would cool even before the cabin started cooling off so the period of heat
>> soak sweat time was minimal. This system would be so much simpler.
>
>Why not use evaporation cooling combined with an heat exchanger?
>
>In germany Waeco
>http://www.waeco.de/de/produkte/frischluft_kuehlanlagen.php?artOrigID=1871&hirID=214
>builds such a device for RVs. With 230 W input you can get up to 2.500 W
>cooling. The only thing you have to do is to fill up water regularly.
>Because of the heat exchanger the humity does not increase.
>
>Emil
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:37:46 -0700 (MST), Peter VanDerWal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Saying something is impractical for
> >> a hobbyist simply because you can't do it the way major manufacturers do
> >> it is both overly pessimistic and misleading.
> >
>
> I'm going to go with Victor on this. People build their own EVs because
> they can't buy them. Even though motors and controllers are readily
> available, people build their own motors and controllers. They do this
> because they see some advantage in doing it themselves.
>
> If there was /any/ kind of advantage in building your own batteries
> /someone/ would be doing it. Is anyone doing it?That's pretty coclusive
> evidence that their is no advantage to doing it.
Peter, that's a wee bit pessimistic. You could have said the same
thing about DC motors, not so long ago, and there was a time when a
400A Curtis was state of the art, and no-one had got around to making
Zillas and T-Rexes. Even chargers - people have wanted a light,
powerful, universal voltage charger for years, and did people tell
Rich Rudman that "if it hasn't been done already, that's a good enough
reason not to bother trying."?
Or are you saying that the lead-acid batteries available now meet
everyone's criteria, and there's simply no advances to be made? I
really don't agree with that!
> If some of you folks think differnetly, well quit arguing about it and go
> out do it. If your excuse for NOT doing it is ______ (fill in the blank)
> then you've pretty much made Victor's point.
Why, is there something different about making batteries that makes
them special, and the exclusive domain of Exide or whoever? Just as
we had EV enthusiast / electronic engineers design and build useful
products on their own, why couldn't there be an electrochemist who is
also into electric drag-racing? That's probably all it would take :)
Regards
Evan
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Since I got me a GT6 in my driveway, I'm glad to see you're
putting that Spitfire to good use instead of letting it go
to waste.
Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. Thanks for your
earlier offer though. Maybe one day we can call in Ralph
Merwin, have a meetup, and show off our electric Triumphs.
The more, the merrier! :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
I considered an Opel GT or Fiat 850 Spyder and many others
about a year ago before deciding on a Triumph. I even
pondered a lot of kit cars out there. Opel GT = .39 drag
coefficient, 17.5 foot frontal area or so, 2,000 pounds curb
weight IIRC. GREAT car. It's like a miniature Corvette
Stingray, and V8 conversions were common.
My car isn't from the 70s, but late 60s. Triumph GT6+, with
rotoflex suspension. TR6 no-overdrive tranny/diff was also
installed by previous owner. 1780 pound weight. Excellent
looking machine, it's sort of a poor man's Jaguar E-Type in
my opinion. A LeMans bonnet would make it look like a 60s or
70s Maserati sports car or 60s Ferrari GTO. It'll definately
be an attention getter. A 70s Spitfire would make an
excellent EV with about 1,800 pounds curb weight on the
later models with the tacky rubber bumpers, and the heaviest
being a 1980 model had a 1,380 pound glider weight according
to Ralph Merwin who did a 1980 conversion to EV. Drag
coefficient for GT6 I've heard quoted on multiple occassions
at .32, but it is unfortunately not hard data. But I've
heard it repeatedly. I do know the frontal area: 14.9 feet
squared, with a mere 47 inch height or so!
I joke with my parents that I'm going to pull a James Dean
in this thing after I buold a race-prepped and lowered an
extra 2 inches EV out of it. It's about the size of his
Spyder in spatial dimensions at the moment. They are scared!
I enjoyed John's posts on the 510 and 1200. I'm not a fan of
the sport compacts(I kind of have a grudge against ricers.
Too many preppy rich kids in my city with rice cars mommy
and daddy funded give me very evil ideas. I want to
humiliate them with an EV that cost less than what they put
into theirs...), BUT those types of sport compacts from the
70s do make excellent EVs, I must admit.
Imagine a tricked out EV Honda N600... Soooo light! It would
be something different from the norm, and could be made to
resemble a hotrod Mini Cooper from hell! As for a Datsun
1200, there was one going on sale via one of the EV clubs
just a few months ago, already converted to an EV. Snag it
if it isn't taken. As much as I do not like the 1200's
looks(If it seats more than two and is taller than 49
inches, I usually have a problem with it!), if I would have
found one, I'd have still snagged it in a heartbeat. Wayland
has shown they make an EV unlikely to be matched in racing
by any other conversions due to their low weight, good GVWR,
excellent battery space, and overall mass appeal if one is
hopped up like the Meanie is. His White zombie currently
holds the world record atm. They make great conversions with
time and effort put into them, and thus, even if I may not
like the looks, I'min LOVE with Wayland's Blue Meanie. It is
what an EV should strive to be, and will turn heads.
Look into the following(Other options exist, but I'm just
recalling off the top of my head what I researched in my
search for the right one):
Austin Healey Sprite MkI(Bugeye, 1460 lbs) and
MkII(Spridget, 1,580 pounds)
Austin Mini Cooper S(1260 lbs!)
Datsun 1200(1,580 pounds)
Fiat 600 Multipla(1,280 pounds!)
Fiat 850 Spyder(1,590 pounds)
Fiat 850 Coupe(1,480 pounds)
Ford Fiesta Mk1(1,590 pounds)
Honda N600(1,500 pounds)
MGA(1,990 pounds)
MG Midget all models(Spridget, same look at AH MkII. MkI,
1,470 pounds, MkII 1,545 pounds, Mk III 1,700 pounds)
Opel Kadett(1,650 pounds)
Opel GT(2,000 pounds)
Renault Dauphine(1,500 pounds)
Triumph Spitfire all models(MkI 1,560 pounds, MkII/III 1,630
pounds, 1500 1,730 pounds)
Triumph GT6 all models(MkI 1,780 pounds, MkII 1,780 pounds,
MkIII 1,940 pounds)
Volkswagen Beetle(1,780 pounds)
Volkswagen Karmen Ghia(1,750 pounds)
All are at or under 2,000 pounds(Correct me if I'm wrong on
any of them, someone) and with work, would be awesome
conversions.
Find one that suits you, and keep a lookout for rust
free(mostly) examples for cheap. I'm glad I found my GT6. I
was especially glad given it has very clean aero. I'm
pondering an attempt of a long range + fast conversion
modelled on a cross between two opposing conversions,
Cocconi's CRX and Wayland's Blue Meanie. Time and mistakes
will say whether I succeed or fail.
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In a motor or a transformer, the total voltage difference will be in the two
input leads only.
For Example: If you build a transformer with a primary of 7200 volts using
600 volt rated magnet enamel wire, with a 1000 windings per layer, the
voltage difference between any adjacent winding would be 7200/1000=7.2
volts.
Each layer is insulated from each other with silicon cloths, insulation
materials, with enough wraps to build up the voltage difference of at lease
9000 volts. Some of these new silicon tapes have a dielectric voltage
rating of 20,000 volts.
The input lead connections at these voltages, are from 1 to 2 inches in
diameters that may have layers of shields and insulation. Each insulation
layers is taper back at about 45 degree angle with about 2 inch separation.
Today, we used a porcelain high voltage terminal connection that slips over
these expose layers. Inside a high voltage control panel, these terminal
connections can be hand made in the field by wrapping friction tape into a
very large 3 inch diameter ball with insulation enamel apply to each layer.
This hold's true for any multiple winding of any electrical machine.
Sometime back in the 60's, someone built a very small motor, of who I don't
remember what company it was, that was only about 2 inches in diameter.
This motor was to operated at 5000 volts. They have problems of arc over
using 600 volt standard magnet wire. So they had non-insulated magnetic
wire wrap with one half wrap layer of clear silicon tape. Half wrap means
the tape overlap half the distance, which gave two layers.
Normally, 5000 volt motors are in the range of 3 to 4 feet in diameter,
which allows for a thicker insulation wires, that are at times seperated by
insulation rods.
What I was impressed with, was the next statement, was that the wire was so
small, 40 gage or smaller and was wrap with a very thin clear silicon tape,
that it still look like uninsulated wire.
Anybody ever try to wind a coil by hand with 40 gage or even with a coil
winding machine? Just a very very slight pull on this wire, will break it.
Many motor shops will not try to wind anything above 36 gage, because it is
not cost effected to have machines for gages over 36 gage.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
> DC controls peaked in thier use and complexity with WW2 motors and
> aircraft
> generators. With power silicon rectifiers and SCR of the 50s and 60s DC
> control was on it's way out.
> The 20 s was definitely NOT the peak of brushed DC apparatus designs.
>
> On the first Ev motor that I used, it had compensating windings,
> interpoles,
> and pole face windings, and could be run in Series mode, compound mode,
> and
> fully controlled field regulated generator mode.
> You didn't want to have to trace out the circuits inside one of these
> puppies!!!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
>
>
> >
> >
> > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >
> > > Potentially in a full size pickup conversion, a 600 or
> > > 900(or more) volt pack could be installed in the bed. What
> > > might the absolute upper limits to any currently available
> > > DC motor be? Would that be due to arcing problems? What
> > > are the upper voltage limits a Zilla could be scaled too?
> > >
> > > Are these DC motors as advanced as they are ever going to
> > > get? About what year did these motors peak out at?
> > >
> >
> > I have the book "Armature Window and Motor Repair" published in 1920. It
> > speaks of interpoles, compensating windings, etc. I believe DC motors
> > were about as advanced as they were going to get in 1920, at least in
> > our power range.
> >
> > I believe 900v would be the max. Beyond that I believe it is hard to
> > properly insulate everything, especially around the commutator.
> > 600v is a pretty common value for traction applications (subway trucks)
> > I've been to a subway test facility that tested 600v motors, but they
> > were AC so I guess that's irrelevant.
> >
> > Power electronics are readily available for well over 1000v. New silicon
> > carbide rectifiers will also help the situation in that regard.
> >
> > Say you wanted 120kW @ 600v, that would only be 200 amps.
> > I'd personally be scared of anything I built that ran at 600v though. A
> > blue flashing light would be in order...
> >
> > --
> > Martin K
> > http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund writes:
>
> Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. Thanks for your
> earlier offer though. Maybe one day we can call in Ralph
> Merwin, have a meetup, and show off our electric Triumphs.
> The more, the merrier! :-)
Maybe you're thinking of someone else? I have a '93 Geo Prizm
(aka Boring Jelly Bean with a Boring Interior with a Boring
Curb Weight of 3200 lbs (projected)). Hi John ;-)
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
>Clean 510s are plentiful, though the really nice ones are commanding high
>prices these days.
Maybe in Oregon, but you won't find 1970s Japanese imports in quantity
anywhere east of the Rockies. The ones sold in the Northeast rusted away
long ago, and "foreign" cars didn't sell in significant amounts in the
South or Midwest before the mid-late 1980s. You can find a lifetime supply
of F-150s and Transmaros there, but if you want a first-gen Celica or a
Honda CVCC you'll have to look elsewhere.
David Thompson
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--- Begin Message ---
First, thanks for all the responses. I guess the long story short didn't
work. The Prestolite motor is being used in one of those hopper cars.
Typically the guys are using SAKO brand off shore fenner replacement pumps.
Every guy we talked with at the last competition has to replace his motors
after each competition.
What we found in the motors, eight SAKO's, was the brush holder was melted,
arced through close to the positive brush holder where it is mounted, away
from the actual brush. The loop that holds the brush is riveted to the brush
holder plate, and there is a very thin insulator under it, typical Chinese
quality. When the 12volt motors were run on 48volts, the brush holders don't
seem to melt, it is only started happening when they do competitions and
jump to 84 or 96 volts.
We cannot change the motor size due to esthetics. Or I would have already
put 40mt starter motors in. The motors are turning high volume, high
pressure hydraulic pumps. Everyone seems to think torque is the key to
making them work better. The SAKO's normally don't have undercut armatures,
and the armatures seldom fail. We tried a different set of motors, from a
different manufacture that had undercut armatures. Most of the comm. bars
were badly burned, melted, or missing. The motors were really abused, more
than normal this time though. He was showing off for the crowd and played
until destruction. Yes he has a good job and still lives with his parents.
With these new motors the brush plate was melted also, but through the brush
holder directly under the positive brushes. At $300 set I would like to be
able to get him more than one kick at the can with them. My initial thought
on the armature comm. bars was they may have blown because of the under
cutting.
Our first experiment with the SAKO's was to remove the shunt and add another
field coil, making it a 4 coil field. At the same time we had the coils
rewound to be 6volt coils equal in power to the 12volt coils. No idea what
was exactly done to them. The motors acted far better than the 12volt coiled
motors. Normally it took him 4 hits of the button to get the car to jump
26", at 84volts. With the 6volt coils he only had to hit twice to jump the
same height, at 84 volts. With the new motors with stock 12volt coils, he
had to hit it three times to jump 37". The new motors don't have a shunt,
straight 4 coils.
Using controls won't work, I don't think anyway, as there are two many
variables happening at once. Mainly the hit has to be timed to how the car
is dropping, and the pre load of the springs, which changes each time.
About the brush timing, 25 years of building starters, and I haven't the
slightest idea about what you are talking about. Interested in hearing more
though.
The second motor I was speaking off, the 75ftlbs/11hp, I will try and get a
test sheet posted to the web. If memory serves me correctly the initial pull
of the motors is 3000+ amps at 12volts, tapering off to about 600amps by
2500rpm. The multiply by four as a general rule is scary. We had always
thought 100% HP and 25% torque. I will need to address this quickly, as I
need to work out gear ratios for my bike.
Another question about the batteries for my bike. I am using 4 sets of three
batteries. Is there a difference between going positive to positive to
positive on one set and then going to the negative on the next set or taking
all the positives individually to a stud, and then over to the negative on
the next set of batteries.
Thanks again for all the info. I hope I have made things a bit clearer this
time.
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