EV Digest 4106
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: She's dead Jim
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Home made batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery boxes
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: She's dead Jim
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: More water dreams...
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: She's dead Jim
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Diodes and Contactors (was: She's dead Jim)
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Home made batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif.
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: She's dead Jim
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) help
by "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: More water dreams...
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: inexpensive ebike conversion kit
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: building your own batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Need Vicor DC/DC
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: She's dead Jim
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Torque Steer (was: 42-volt starting batteries)
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Torque Steer
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah,
Cliff's first question was if I had a PM motor and he was quite surprised to
find out I had a series wound. My fireworks were all happening a few inches
behind my calf.
From: "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: She's dead Jim
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:13:29 -0600
Damon,
One of my Alltrax controllers did the same thing. It failed, wide open,
in a very dramatic fashion with a shower of sparks and smoke within a
couple days of me installing it in a 48V go-kart. Luckily, I had the
chain drive off at the time otherwise it would have taken off without me
down the driveway. My Dad had another one which he purchased within
days of mine and I installed it and haven't had a problem since.
Alltrax replaced the fried one at no cost to me but never mentioned
anything about a diode.
All in all I give their product and customer support a good grade but
every time I get on my go-kart or my new dirt-bike conversion that
dramatic incident flashed through my head... Realize the controller is
right between my legs (couple inches) on both these vehicles. Its not a
place where you want a shower of sparks pouring out...(unless you want
an "e-vasectomy"..;-) ) not to mention going on a hell of ride until you
can cut the power...
BTW - I searched the Net and found two websites with similar stories of
other people who had this happen to them though they were all attached
to Etek motors, including mine, which supposedly they have fixed in all
the new ones.
Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:41 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: She's dead Jim
So I talked to Alltrax and while issuing me an RA Cliff gave me a pretty
hard time about not having a diode across my main contactor. To be
honest
it wasn't there because I just dropped this controller in when I pulled
out
my Curtis Controller which doesn't show a need for a diode. Could this
really have contributed to the problem? I have no problem adding a
diode, I
just couldn't get a satisfactory answer out of Cliff as to why in his
mind
this was so crucial. He even mentioned that in the install instructions
it
is recommended, which I pointed out was not quite as forceful and
stating
that it is required. He just kept going on about how fields collapse
and
cause huge votage spikes, which I don't disagree with, I just don't see
how
a diode across the main contactor does anything to limit damage to my
controller from these spikes. I also don't understand why this
seemingly
important protection is not built into the controller itself.
damon
>--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > My Alltrax controller just blew up. It was quite a
> > surprise. I had just
> > headed out of my neighborhood on a beautiful 50
> > degree day to test out my
> > new battery arraingement, when I heard a fizzing
> > noise and looked down to
> > see sparks and smoke shooting out of the back of my
> > controller. I cut the
> > power and pulled off to the side of the road then
> > pushed my motorcycle back
> > home.
> >
> > I sent an e-mail to Alltrax to see what comes next.
> > I can't see that it was
> > anything I did and I just bought the controller last
> > summer so hopefully it
> > is a warranty repair type of deal. If not it may be
> > time to start selling
> > off components and move on to a different hobby.
> >
> > damon
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
>Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
>http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't mind, I'll keep it secret in case I'll decide
to surprise everyone.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
From: "Victor Tikhonov"
I think sometimes what it would take to put together
winning
AC powered car, similar to Cliff's on the track for 1/4
mile
drag racing. It is expensive, but not out of reach. So I do
not exclude such possibility in the future.
Would you use Optima's or Orbital's? How many at what
voltage?
Which motor and controller would you use? What might the
1/4 mile time be?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good to know, one is working on his batteries per thoudands
wothing on their EVs.
Anyone else working on the batteries? Single one?
It won't prove or disprove anything, I'm just curious.
Victor
Ken Trough wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
we don't hear many or even few attemps to improve a battery in a
garage, and we're looking for such info.
What's Electric Louie been doing since he sold eXkate? I know he was
working on some thin film, high density, high current drag racing
batteries "in his garage" with some high priced battery engineer in the
hopes of smashing some NEDRA dragster records. I haven't heard anything
since EVS-20 and there wasn't really any news then either.
Anyone know if Louis Finkle is making any progress or if he has
abandoned the project all together? Apologies if this was already
covered in the thread. No one changed the name to indicate a shift to
home made battery discussion.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> Besides the handful with universities, and the batch with GM in New
> York(?), I understand there are still about 100 to 150 EV1s
> on the road in
> California creeping up to the end of their leases. I am told
> one actually
> visited the Ranger EV vigil site. I was surprised to hear
> this, as I was
> under the impression all of them were turned in and crushed
> already. I
> guess if the last of them were leased about 2001-2002 and
> they had 4 year
> leases that makes sense.
>
> In this case, I can't help but think the vigil to save the
> EV1 is certainly
> worthwhile. Of course, it would be even more worthwhile if
> it works. :)
> (fingers crossed)
Hi Mike,
I hate to have to think like a lawyer, but here's my take on the EV1
situation. Every single EV1 on the planet is owned by GM. GM intends to
keep it that way. Some donations have been made to schools and museums (saw
one at the Corning Museum of Glass* in NY http://www.cmog.org/, since
Corning was the glass supplier), but those donations have *not* been of
EV1s. They were stripped of enough equipment to prevent them from being
operated as vehicles, and the organizations that received them signed
contracts stating they would never be operated on public roads.
Every EV1 still on lease will be reclaimed by GM. There will be no EV1s
owned by consumers. Ever. As far as GM is concerned, building the EV1 was
a big mistake and they just want it to go away. GM makes no attempt at
painting themselves green, so there's not even a PR angle to pursue. I
think the only reason Ford sold any Ranger EVs to the public was because
they *are* trying to paint themselves green, and the media embarrassed them.
I'll also bet that was a Marketing decision that made the Ford Customer
Support department stomping mad. What happens when someone wants a
replacement part for that special independent rear suspension eight years
from now, for example? I predict those few owners will find parts so scarce
and expensive they will dump the vehicles cheap. The Ranger EVs will
effectively fade away.
Even Toyota, who actually sold RAV4 EVs to the public, did it in a way that
would damage the image of EVs. You can't charge one anywhere but home. How
many charging stations support its oddball MagnaCharger paddle? No
infrastructure = failure.
Sorry to be so down on the manufacturers, but they are clearly working hard
against EVs. Too much risk for less money to be made; much better to direct
the tide of public acceptance toward the more complex solutions that will
generate higher profit margins. Like hybrids and FCEVs
I would *love* for someone to prove me wrong. I don't hold out much hope.
Chris
*CMoG is quite a nice family day trip. Highly recommended.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M Bianchi wrote:
> Several of these calibration techniques are based on a single value.
> If one tweaks a meter for that measurement, what is the chance that
> the calibration is "pretty good" over the entire range of that
> range-setting and all the other range settings?
A good quality meter usually has only a single calibration pot for each
kind of measurement (one for DC volts, one for AC volts, one for ohms,
etc.). All the ranges will "track" because they have used high-accuracy
resistors in the voltage dividers. Since nothing changes but these
resistors on the 1v, 10v, 100v, 1000v etc. scale, if these resistors are
perfect, calibration will be perfect. So, you can calibrate "DC volts"
on any one range, and be pretty confident all the other DC voltage
ranges will also be right.
On a cheap meter, they use garden-variety 1% resistors for these
dividers. Such resistors do *not* track; you could have one 1% high, and
another 1% low, leading to a 2% error between ranges. But there will be
no adjustments to fix it anyway.
Also, cheap resistors have a voltage coefficient; their resistance
changes with voltage. This introduces nonlinearity into the scale, so
the half-scale reading might be perfect, but full-scale is wrong.
Finally, there can be a zero offset, due to errors in the electronics.
Most meters (even cheap ones) now have auto-zero circuitry. However, a
cheap meter will use dissimilar metals in its switches and test jacks.
These can introduce thermocouple errors of as much as a couple
millivolts.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> - There are lots of PM motors with printed circuit rotors; no
>> iron and no windings in the armatures.
>> - Aluminum instead of copper is used in some high-volume motor
>> windings. Besides being lighter and cheaper, windings can be
>> cast in place rather than wound.
> While these two items reduce production costs, I wouldn't claim
> they are an improvement on the motor, in fact rather the contrary.
> Both of these REDUCE motor efficiency.
True; but higher efficiency is not always better. The above changes
lower efficiency, but increase the power-to-weight ratio. If they also
reduced cost, you would have *lots* of people that saw the motor as
"better".
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you! I will go build some boxes now..
Gadget
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 5:56 PM -0800 2-16-05, Reverend Gadget wrote:
> >I'm putting together some battery boxes for my
> triumph
> >conversion. Does anybody have an exide orbital to
> take
> >some dimensions from? The manufacturers info says
> that
> >the battery has a footprint of 7" X 11.21" with a
> >height of 8.12". does that include the side
> terminals?
> >and does the height include the top terminals or is
> >that just the case height? I seem to remember some
> >discrepancies the last time I used them but don't
> >remember exactly what they were, nor do I have
> access
> >to them anymore. I won't have my batts for a week
> and
> >want to procede. I need to have this thing running
> by
> >the end of the month. Thanks
> >
> > Gadget
>
> I knew I saw this somewhere. A quick search of my
> old mail found this:
>
> At 10:25 PM -0700 10-13-04, John Wayland wrote:
> >The overall height of the battery, including the
> top posts, is 8 and
> >1/8 inches. Excluding
> >these posts, the main body of the battery is 7 and
> 1/2 inches high.
> >The top portion of the battery, the more
> rectangular shaped part, is
> >10 and 1/4 inches
> >long, by 6 and 5/8 inches wide, not including the
> protruding section
> >of the side posts.
> >Including those awkward side posts, the battery is
> 7 inches wide at
> >the top. This
> >rectangular top is about 2 inches thick, where the
> rest of the
> >battery body is inset and
> >is comprised of the six cell barrels. The 6 barrels
> that make up the
> >bulk of the battery
> >body, are 5 inches high, 9 and 5/16 inches long,
> and including the
> >lower projecting
> >plastic mount clamp ribs, 6 and 3/4 inches wide at
> the very
> >bottom...excluding these 1/4
> >wide ribs (they can be easily sawed off on a table
> saw), the barrels
> >are 6 and 1/4 inches
> >wide. Thus, the Exide Orbital is has a smaller
> footprint than the
> >area of it's top piece.
> >
> >The two holes that one can use to mount the battery
> with (an 8 inch
> >long, 5/16 bolt with
> >fender washers on top works great), are exactly
> centered in the
> >middle of the battery, and
> >are 3 and 1/8 inches center-to-center....they are
> each 3 and 9/16
> >inches in from the ends
> >of the battery's top piece (lengthwise).
> >
> >Hope this helps.
> >
> >See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon and All,
> > >--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My Alltrax controller just blew up. It was
> > quite a
This is why I like Contactor controllers! Mine
only costs about $15 and 10 minutes to fix and about
$60 to build. And no waiting weeks, big $ to get it
fixed!!!
Everyone laughs at me but I laugh all the way
to the bank in my EV!
KIS,
jerry dycus
PS, They love my E-woody down at the bank!
Just got over a long, bad flu so back to work on more
EV's this week! Spring has sprung here in Tampa.
> > > > surprise. I had just
> > > > headed out of my neighborhood on a beautiful
> 50
> > > > degree day to test out my
> > > > new battery arraingement, when I heard a
> fizzing
> > > > noise and looked down to
> > > > see sparks and smoke shooting out of the back
> of
> > my
> > > > controller. I cut the
> > > > power and pulled off to the side of the road
> > then
> > > > pushed my motorcycle back
> > > > home.
> > > >
> > > > I sent an e-mail to Alltrax to see what comes
> > next.
> > > > I can't see that it was
> > > > anything I did and I just bought the
> controller
> > last
> > > > summer so hopefully it
> > > > is a warranty repair type of deal. If not it
> > may be
> > > > time to start selling
> > > > off components and move on to a different
> hobby.
> > > >
> > > > damon
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
What makes DC controllers over 156V so much more expensive to build than
those with lower voltages? What's magical about the 156V number?
Many semiconductors are rated to a max of 200v. A 156V pack of
batteries (13 12v batteries) will not reach 200V when charging to
15V/bat (about the highest max charging voltage). A 168V pack would
reach 200V when charging to 15v/battery.
DCP used to say that 168V was ok as long as you absolutely insured the
controller was disconnected from the batteries while the charger was
on. (14 batteries * 13.2V resting voltage is only 184.8V) 15 batteries
is resting at 198.. which is cutting it close.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the spikes are due to the coil in the contacter than this doesn't apply
to me as I actually just have a switch.
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=669&product_id=1330.
This is a bit underated for what I am using it for, and fortunately it broke
the current when things went bad. I believe I will be adding a real
contacter when I put it all back together.
He mentioned spikes of 40,000 volts, which leads me to believe he was
thinking of something else.
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: She's dead Jim
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:38:10 -0800
damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Could this really have contributed to the problem?
Perhaps, since you could have been subjecting the controller to spikes
of a few times your pack voltage when the contactor opens. The spikes
would be on the KSI input, if you wire the controller according to their
suggestions.
But, the stress that you would have been subjecting the controller to
would have been ocurring each time that you turn *off* the main
contactor, so it seems most likely that a failure would have occurred
just as you turned on or off the bike, not while you were riding along.
It is possible that each time you turned the contactor off you subjected
the controller to some voltage stress which weakened some part(s) until
they just finally failed, even though they didn't fail immediately upon
turning the contactor on or off for the last time.
> He even mentioned that in the install instructions it
> is recommended, which I pointed out was not quite as forceful
> and stating that it is required.
I didn't even see a recommendation in the AllTrax AXE manual I
downloaded. In the paragraph where they state that a main contactor is
required but not supplied, it points out that the coil voltage must
equal pack voltage, but does not mention a freewheel diode at all. On
the wiring diagrams, diodes are shown across every coil, and one diagram
at least suggests that the diodes are 1N4004 (1A 200V), however, the
average person might not even realise that the diodes are something he
must supply separately from the contactors (i.e. some contactors come
with diodes, but others don't).
> He just kept going on about how fields collapse and
> cause huge votage spikes, which I don't disagree with, I just
> don't see how a diode across the main contactor does anything
> to limit damage to my controller from these spikes.
The voltage spike is caused when the power to the coil is removed. The
coil's inductance does not allow the current to change abruptly, and so
the voltage is forced to spike up as the inductance tries to keep the
current flowing (by causing the switch contacts to arc, etc.)
Installing a freewheel diode across the coil prevents the voltage spike
by providing a path for the current to flow at the instant that coil
power is removed. The voltage across the coil is now clamped to the
diode's forward drop (typically <1V).
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4 mile provided
minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate, because put
efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used in the qt.mi is?And what is
your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi run including the drive to
the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs 1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> - There are lots of PM motors with printed circuit rotors; no
>>> iron and no windings in the armatures.
>>> - Aluminum instead of copper is used in some high-volume motor
>>> windings. Besides being lighter and cheaper, windings can be
>>> cast in place rather than wound.
>
>> While these two items reduce production costs, I wouldn't claim
>> they are an improvement on the motor, in fact rather the contrary.
>> Both of these REDUCE motor efficiency.
>
> True; but higher efficiency is not always better. The above changes
> lower efficiency, but increase the power-to-weight ratio. If they also
> reduced cost, you would have *lots* of people that saw the motor as
> "better".
Hmm, input power to weight ratio or output power to weight ratio?
Ok, ok I see your point. However, since I'm primarily interested in
efficiency, "I" wouldn't call it an improvement ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Installing a freewheel diode across the coil prevents the voltage spike
by providing a path for the current to flow at the instant that coil
power is removed. The voltage across the coil is now clamped to the
diode's forward drop (typically <1V).
A little trick I learned when I interned for a contactor mfr. is to put
a Zener diode in series with the diode (oriented the opposite
direction). The voltage rating for the Zener should be roughly what
the coil is designed to be driven at.
This e.g. 12V drop will soak up the power stored in the coil much more
quickly than the 0.7V drop of a just a diode. The coil current drops
off much faster and the contacts open with quite a bit more oomph (to
the point that can actually hear the difference).
HTH,
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Good to know, one is working on his batteries per thoudands
> wothing on their EVs.
Now, now, Victor, be fair... ;^>
Battery building/tweaking was only suggested as a possible avenue for
*drag racers* to persue and there are *far* fewer EVers involved with
drag racing. As a generous guesstimate, perhaps 150-200 EVers
participate in EV drag racing, and of those there are perhaps 25 that
are serious in the sense of fielding a purpose-built drag racing vehicle
rather than taking their daily driver EV to the track for fun. That one
person out of the perhaps 25 serious EV drag racers is working on his
batteries is certainly not insignificant.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a comment - none of the major car manufacturers are required to
maintain parts for anything beyond a few years. One of my co-workers had to
have a custom made end for one of the hydraulic cylinders that operate his
soft top. I think it was a GM in fact and the parts department said in
essence - oh, that model is more than 8 years old, we only carry parts for 8
years - sorry. It was a relatively rare model and none of the normal
sources for parts could locate a used or aftermarket replacement.
Given that experience it would seem GM, Ford and anyone else could be nice
and just wait for the problem to go away instead of being pig headed about
it - if they wanted.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: February 17, 2005 1:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif.
Mike Chancey wrote:
> Besides the handful with universities, and the batch with GM in New
> York(?), I understand there are still about 100 to 150 EV1s
> on the road in
> California creeping up to the end of their leases. I am told
> one actually
> visited the Ranger EV vigil site. I was surprised to hear
> this, as I was
> under the impression all of them were turned in and crushed
> already. I
> guess if the last of them were leased about 2001-2002 and
> they had 4 year
> leases that makes sense.
>
> In this case, I can't help but think the vigil to save the
> EV1 is certainly
> worthwhile. Of course, it would be even more worthwhile if
> it works. :)
> (fingers crossed)
Hi Mike,
I hate to have to think like a lawyer, but here's my take on the EV1
situation. Every single EV1 on the planet is owned by GM. GM intends to
keep it that way. Some donations have been made to schools and museums (saw
one at the Corning Museum of Glass* in NY http://www.cmog.org/, since
Corning was the glass supplier), but those donations have *not* been of
EV1s. They were stripped of enough equipment to prevent them from being
operated as vehicles, and the organizations that received them signed
contracts stating they would never be operated on public roads.
Every EV1 still on lease will be reclaimed by GM. There will be no EV1s
owned by consumers. Ever. As far as GM is concerned, building the EV1 was
a big mistake and they just want it to go away. GM makes no attempt at
painting themselves green, so there's not even a PR angle to pursue. I
think the only reason Ford sold any Ranger EVs to the public was because
they *are* trying to paint themselves green, and the media embarrassed them.
I'll also bet that was a Marketing decision that made the Ford Customer
Support department stomping mad. What happens when someone wants a
replacement part for that special independent rear suspension eight years
from now, for example? I predict those few owners will find parts so scarce
and expensive they will dump the vehicles cheap. The Ranger EVs will
effectively fade away.
Even Toyota, who actually sold RAV4 EVs to the public, did it in a way that
would damage the image of EVs. You can't charge one anywhere but home. How
many charging stations support its oddball MagnaCharger paddle? No
infrastructure = failure.
Sorry to be so down on the manufacturers, but they are clearly working hard
against EVs. Too much risk for less money to be made; much better to direct
the tide of public acceptance toward the more complex solutions that will
generate higher profit margins. Like hybrids and FCEVs
I would *love* for someone to prove me wrong. I don't hold out much hope.
Chris
*CMoG is quite a nice family day trip. Highly recommended.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If the spikes are due to the coil in the contacter than this
> doesn't apply to me as I actually just have a switch.
Right. The freewheel diode is installed across the contactor coil, so
if you haven't got a contactor, you haven't got a coil to put it across,
and the non-existent coil certainly didn't cause any voltage spikes ;^>
> He mentioned spikes of 40,000 volts, which leads me to believe he was
> thinking of something else.
One can only wonder what... the voltage spike across a 48V coil (in your
e-motorcycle's case) isn't going to get anywhere near that level. It
could be that he knows enough to realise that a voltage spike exists in
the absence of a freewheel diode, and that that spike is "high", but
doesn't know how large it really is.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys, can any one in the group make me a 144 volt batterycharger
@110 volt input??or know where I can get one for about 300$ were in
a bind, we have a Ranger sitting here all done and billed out. Now
were starting our 6th truck. prob is that this coustmer wanted to
have us get a charger.and not buy his own.Something happened with
the building of the charger, now were in a sticky situation. I
could really use your guys help...Thanks Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For example, I smoked my 156V Raptor by placing 350 volts across it. I
had it disconnected from the pack, but the precharge wire exposed it to
the high voltage, letting the smoke out of the controller. I replaced
it with a T-Rex which is good to about 400V, so if I do the same series
of stupid things, the controller will live.
Anyone need a 600 A raptor with no smoke remaining?
Lynn
92 Civic, 144 Volts
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: More water dreams...
Bill Dennis wrote:
>What makes DC controllers over 156V so much more expensive to build
>than those with lower voltages? What's magical about the 156V number?
>
>
Many semiconductors are rated to a max of 200v. A 156V pack of
batteries (13 12v batteries) will not reach 200V when charging to
15V/bat (about the highest max charging voltage). A 168V pack would
reach 200V when charging to 15v/battery.
DCP used to say that 168V was ok as long as you absolutely insured the
controller was disconnected from the batteries while the charger was
on. (14 batteries * 13.2V resting voltage is only 184.8V) 15 batteries
is resting at 198.. which is cutting it close.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ivo Jara wrote:
I found a chinese manufacturesr that sells an electric bike conversion kit
at a very good prize, since I live in Chile, and the weather is great most
of the year (it rains once or twice a year), I thought of converting my
mountain bike and my wife's.
The thing is so cheap that it brings a little distrust in me.
What do you think about it, do you think it will perform as it advertises
???
Here's the link:
http://www.goldenmotor.com/
Ivo.
Unfortunately Golden Motor is certainly not made of gold :^D
do you think it will perform as it advertises ???
No. Their products are near or at the bottom rung on the quality/performance
ladder.
_shameless plug following_
Everyone around here loves the Wilderness Energy hubmotor kit, we have been
selling a lot of them.
Here are some links-
http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1290757&PRID=1501740
http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1290757&PRID=1504628
(price increase takes effect 3/1/05)
We ship to Chile. :^D
_end shameless plug_
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This .pdf has a drawing of the inside of an Orbital:
>
> http://www.exideworld.com/pdf/orbital_xcd_specs_and_features.pdf
>
> Where is it's weak link or it's perceived weak link? Which
> part of it might fail when put under an extended full
> discharge type load?
The short answer is that we don't yet know what the weak link is. Ask
again after Mssrs. Rudman, Wayland, and Wilde get a bit further into the
2005 drag race season ;^>
Typically, the intercell connections are a weak point for AGMs (e.g
Optimas, Hawkers, and JCI Inspiras). I don't know if the intercell
connection itself melts open or if it fails where it connects to the
plates, and it may well be different depending on the make of battery.
Looking at the Orbital picture, the intercell connections look quite a
bit beefier than those of an Optima (shorter, thicker, and perhaps
wider). I would suspect that the weak link might therefore become the
strap-to-plate connection, or perhaps the very long/thin looking SAE
post 'stud'.
For comparison, check out the intercell connections (which Rich can tell
you the failure point of) of an Optima at:
<http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/bg/images/OptimaCutawaylarge.jpg>
Notice how the Optima intercell connections appear to be longer,
narrower, and thinner than those of the Orbital.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ACRX normally uses 1Ah/mile, but this is not too meaningful
for omparison at diferent voltages.
I consume ~200Wh/mile (@ 35mph), which is very average.
Dragging rear brakes and wrong tires are contributors to that.
Also, I suspect front alignment needs work and here is
the area you may know the answer at:
When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and when
slowing down using only regen on front wheels - pulls right.
It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
Almost like having constant brake or friction around
left (?) half shaft, so the torque of acceleration or braking
is not divided quite evenly. Another reason in theory may be that
the front tires diameters are differnt, but they are inflated
to the same PSI so I can't imagine this to be the case.
Which suspension element or parameter (camber, caster. etc)
can be responsible for this behavior? Or it is not suspension at all?
The car is straight, never been in an accident.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4 mile provided
minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate, because put
efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used in the qt.mi is?And what is
your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi run including the drive to
the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs 1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the little 25w 48v input ones. Got them for 4 dollars each. At
Excess solutions they also had 63v input and various others. With the right
combo you could use one each for each light and another for the rest of the
marker lights. I used two for my Laher moped conversion. One for the head
light and one for the brake and running lights. Cost: 15 dollars. No aux.
battery.........LR>............
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Need Vicor DC/DC
Yeah, we saw that and my boss has sent him an e-mail, but he has not
responded as yet. Thought I'd do a little hunting in the meantime.
James
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 13:08, Travis Raybold wrote:
on the listing in the questions section is a guy offering one for $350...
John Lussmyer wrote:
> You may want to try on the SparrowEV Yahoo group as well.
> There is at least 1 person that replaced the DC-DC with a 14th
> yellowtop. (He did have to setup a separate charger for it as well.)
>
> At 09:48 AM 2/17/2005, you wrote:
>
>> After years of hearing me harp on EV's my boss actually just bought a
>> Corbin on ebay!
>> Does anyone have a used Vicor, or something compatible for a
>> reasonable
>> price?
>
>
>
> .
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He mentioned spikes of 40,000 volts, which leads me to believe he was
thinking of something else.
One can only wonder what... the voltage spike across a 48V coil (in
your
e-motorcycle's case) isn't going to get anywhere near that level.
Keep in mind we're talking about the same circuit that's used to drive
spark plugs in an ICE. It will spike to whatever voltage it takes to
keep the current flowing through the coil. By way of analogy, the force
of a rock dropped on your foot is many times its weight.
A better analogy might be the electrical equivalent of "water hammer"
(what happens when you quickly shut off flow of a large amount of water
moving in a pipe -- the mass of the water wants to keep moving, and the
pressure at the valve spikes to many times the ordinary water
pressure).
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and when
slowing down using only regen on front wheels - pulls right.
My guess is the right half shaft, being the shorter one (this is a
Honda after all) has less torsional flex than the left one.
(Some people call this torque-steer, but that's actually a different
phenomenon related to the location of the contact patch versus where
the steering axis intersects the ground).
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and when
> slowing down using only regen on front wheels - pulls right.
>
> It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
Typical FWD torque steer due to unequal length drive axles?
When accelerating or regenning, the torque is applied through the
unequal length drive axles; when braking the torque is applied right at
the wheel, so axle lengths have no effect.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Wrong, if you have EV you WANT more range longer life cheaper
> battery. You can't not wanting it if you're daily EV driver.
Not necessarily, and "WANT" is not the same as "NEED"; I may want a
T-Zero to commute to work in, but can't afford it, and since I recognise
it as a want rather than a need, I am not taking on a second job to try
to pursue it.
In my personal case, I'm not actually interested in any longer range,
longer life, or cheaper battery unless it will fit directly in place of
what I have now. I know that may not make economic sense in the case of
a cheaper or longer life battery, however, the reality is that it has
taken me *years* of working very part time on this conversion to get to
where I am now, and having to cut the battery boxes out and start over
would kill the project. No matter how much money I can count on saving
over the years, I haven't got the cash on hand to pay someone to do the
modifications for me.
My EV needs a usable range of just 10mi, which is satisfied by any
number of readily available and proven batteries. Likewise, my
controller is capable of only 500-600A (ignoring the bypass contactor
for the moment ;^), which readily available batteries can handle just
fine.
You offer me a cheaper Optima YT and you've got my attention; offer me a
YT with greater capacity or life for the same money and I'll listen.
Offer me something that costs more or that won't fit in place of a YT
and I'm not interested at all.
> It may be cheaper than OEM and better in critical parameters.
> He made it sound like we all are overlooking great opportunity!
That is certainly not what I intended it to sound like. I tried to be
very specific in stating that it is something that may make sense for
drag racers who need more current capability than present lightweight
batteries offer, if going to heavier batteries like the Orbitals and
taking a hit in power/weight is their only other option.
I do not believe that it would be a trivial task at all for someone to
build batteries in their garage that have a greater life or capacity
than similar chemistry batteries bought off the shelf.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been following this thread, but I did once have a similar
problem on my ICE car, and I found that the bolts holding one of the
front control arm bushing mounts had backed out about 1/4", allowing the
arm to move and change the steering geometry with acceleration and
deceleration. Had the bolts fallen out completely before I discovered
them, the right wheel would have gone one direction, the left wheel
another....leading to a very messy situation! Check out your
suspension mounts now, not later!
cheers,
Andrew
Frank Schmitt wrote:
When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and when
slowing down using only regen on front wheels - pulls right.
My guess is the right half shaft, being the shorter one (this is a
Honda after all) has less torsional flex than the left one.
(Some people call this torque-steer, but that's actually a different
phenomenon related to the location of the contact patch versus where
the steering axis intersects the ground).
-Frank
--- End Message ---
