EV Digest 4107
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: She's dead Jim
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Sniping
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Side pull (Re: 42-volt...)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: She's dead Jim
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Torque Steer
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Stuffing the brains into my variac
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) torque stteering ACRX
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: help
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Diodes and Contactors (was: She's dead Jim)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Torque Steer
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Is Dennis getting bored?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) torque steer
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Drag racing electric vehicles..
by "Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is a common problem. It may be rear wheel
alignment. Have you ever seen a vehicle "crabbing"
down the street? where the rear end is slightly off
from the front track, driving down the road at a
slight angle. check the rear end, if it is the problem
it should fix the torque steer as well as the rolling
resistance. It could be that one rear wheel is out of
alignment causing the extra drag and the crabbing.
Gadget
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ACRX normally uses 1Ah/mile, but this is not too
> meaningful
> for omparison at diferent voltages.
>
> I consume ~200Wh/mile (@ 35mph), which is very
> average.
> Dragging rear brakes and wrong tires are
> contributors to that.
>
> Also, I suspect front alignment needs work and here
> is
> the area you may know the answer at:
>
> When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and
> when
> slowing down using only regen on front wheels -
> pulls right.
>
> It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
>
> Almost like having constant brake or friction around
> left (?) half shaft, so the torque of acceleration
> or braking
> is not divided quite evenly. Another reason in
> theory may be that
> the front tires diameters are differnt, but they are
> inflated
> to the same PSI so I can't imagine this to be the
> case.
>
> Which suspension element or parameter (camber,
> caster. etc)
> can be responsible for this behavior? Or it is not
> suspension at all?
> The car is straight, never been in an accident.
>
> Victor
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > << Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4 mile
> provided
> > minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate,
> because put
> > efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
> > Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used
> in the qt.mi is?And what is
> > your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi
> run including the drive to
> > the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs
> 1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
> > Berube
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I understand these analogies, but the point is I don't have a 48 volt coil.
I was assuming when he was talking about collapsing fields he was refering
to fields in the motor or internal to the controller. I could not visuilize
by looking at the circuit how a diode across my main contactor (a manual
switch) would help.
From: Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: She's dead Jim
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:25:01 -0800
He mentioned spikes of 40,000 volts, which leads me to believe he was
thinking of something else.
One can only wonder what... the voltage spike across a 48V coil (in your
e-motorcycle's case) isn't going to get anywhere near that level.
Keep in mind we're talking about the same circuit that's used to drive
spark plugs in an ICE. It will spike to whatever voltage it takes to keep
the current flowing through the coil. By way of analogy, the force of a
rock dropped on your foot is many times its weight.
A better analogy might be the electrical equivalent of "water hammer" (what
happens when you quickly shut off flow of a large amount of water moving in
a pipe -- the mass of the water wants to keep moving, and the pressure at
the valve spikes to many times the ordinary water pressure).
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I hate sniping, but what can you do, either join in or ...
The 2nd level sniping is what irritates me, The software looks for
anything with a fast moving bid and snipes it then realists it on the
premise that these people will be bid more when a "second" one comes
around.
All we can do is offer EV related stuff to the list before we put it on
Ebay. Then it requires the seller to come up with the price before he
offers it :-) LOL
On many auctions I have asked the seller if he had a buy it now price
and he decided on one, changed the auction and I bought it. We were both
happy with that.
on other auctions, they said no. :-(
Some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant.
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I can sure participate the racing. I times myself a couple of
> times and it was somewhere between 12 and 13 seconds, close
> to 13 I think.
This is 0-60MPH, not 1/4mi.
> IT is hopeless to compete in 336V class because ACRX is not
> optimized for racing, it most likely will loose against John
> or Otmar, and it is expected and predictable, so I don't see
> the point.
The point is not to compete, but just to run the car down the track,
pushing it only as hard as you are comfortable doing. It would be
foolish to expect your car to outperform John or Otmar's vehicles in a
contest of power given that we know they have several times the peak
power capability of your car.
It would strictly be an educational experience. You would have a better
appreciation for what is involved in this form of competition (hey, you
might even discover that you like it, and choose to build a racer
yourself ;^). You know your car's specs, and you know the specs of
John's, Otmar's, and others; after you run it down the strip and collect
your timeslip you will know where it fits relative to them acceleration
wise. It might be an eye opener if the reality differs significantly
from your expectations.
> Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4 mile provided
> minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate, because put
> efforts to optimize ACRX in that respect.
So "compete" against John's Blue Meanie rather than his Zombie in
acceleration. His Blue Meanie is probably closer to your ACRX in
efficiency than you would like to believe (it just doesn't use batteries
with a great deal of capacity).
> If I would put enough low capacity Kokam's cells to have
> 6-7 miles range but light car, I'd have a chance to compete
> for acceleration on 1/4 mile.
If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops either... ;^>
Sure, if you had Kokam cells your performance would be different, so
would John's if he had Kokam cells, or some other battery pack a
fraction of the present one's weight. Don't approach this from an "if I
can't be assured of winning, I can't be bothered to participate"
mentality. Most people run their vehicles at Woodburn just for the fun
of it and to see what it really can do.
One day I hope to run my car there. Do I expect to outperform Rich's
Goldie or steal a NEDRA record from anyone? Absolutely not! But, even
if my car takes 2x as long to complete the 1/4mi as Goldie I will have
fun and come away knowing how good or bad its relative performance is.
Ultimately you have to decide if you are willing to run your car down
the track, and ultimately, you are the one who controls how hard it is
pushed (and therefore the likelihood of breaking something). I know I'm
not the only one curious to see how an AC conversion would perform, so I
hope you do decide to run it sometime. But I understand your arguments
against it; none of us are made of money.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I've never heard of any heat engine hitting 52%, do you have a reference?
No, just dreaming, like the 30% Fresnel Concentrator setup, which would
probably be better, and would shurely top any plain pv (even high end).
As for the slow startup time, well it's a drag race....
> rev the engine and dump the clutch ;-)
Ya, but the rules say...
2. Batteries, capacitors, flywheels, or energy storage devices
(if any) must be completely de-energized and in an uncharged
state prior to the start of each race heat.
So, When exactly is the "start of each race heat"?
Does that include the trip from the pits to the starting line?
1. Solar-only powered dragsters will race head-to-head using
only solar electric cells and electric motors.
Looks like stirlings are out, "only solar electric cells".
L8r
Ryan
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
>> For additional rules and information you can check out the web page:
>> http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not understand what length of the half shaft has to do with
transmitting torque drom its one end to another. Of course twisting
shaft is negligible phenomena here.
Can you elaborate then?
About torsion flex: if one half shaft flexes more, so the CV joint
has to work harder, naturally it eats away some torque to overcome
extra friction there, and net to the wheel will be slightly less.
That explains it except the fact that before ACRX didn't do it.
Well, may be riding height was different, which brings another
question:
Shouldn't this be the case (e.g. different torque at wheels) only
if the shafts are *normally* run at some angle?
If it is straight line out, it should be the same
torque as with rigid half-shafts (that is unless clever
engineers overcompensated one side internally knowing that
suspension has to travel and normal half-shafts
position is already at the angle, so the easier rolling
side (with less friction in CV joint) has to be slowed down
inside the gear box somehow, so the torque at the wheels is
equal? Now, if the car is lowered and shafts are straight,
equilibrium is off since "internal" compensation is still in
effect for normally angled shafts, but they are no longer angled.
Does anyone know for fact if something like this is the case?
I can always raise front to the stock riding height (I have
coilovers) and check if anything changes, but if someone knows,
I may save trouble doing so.
Thanks,
Victor
Roger Stockton wrote:
Typical FWD torque steer due to unequal length drive axles?
When accelerating or regenning, the torque is applied through the
unequal length drive axles; when braking the torque is applied right at
the wheel, so axle lengths have no effect.
Cheers,
Roger.
Frank Schmitt also wrote:
> My guess is the right half shaft, being the shorter one (this is a
> Honda after all) has less torsional flex than the left one.
>
> (Some people call this torque-steer, but that's actually a different
> phenomenon related to the location of the contact patch versus where
> the steering axis intersects the ground).
>
> -Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finally, Roger Stockton wrote:
I do not believe that it would be a trivial task at all for someone to
build batteries in their garage that have a greater life or capacity
than similar chemistry batteries bought off the shelf.
Exactly! Not trivial to the point that *no one* is trying (may be one
with specific needs).
That's all I (and Peter) were saying.
Lets stop this tread I hope everything is clear...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank Schmitt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Keep in mind we're talking about the same circuit that's used
> to drive spark plugs in an ICE.
Only to a very rough approximation. For one thing, the spark plug gap
is fixed at a given spacing, and so the voltage must reach a certain
(high) level before an arc can occur. In the case of switching off a
contactor coil, the switch contacts are initially closed, and as they
open the gap changes from 0 to something very small. The voltage does
not have to rise nearly as high to establish an arc so that current can
continue to flow.
> A better analogy might be the electrical equivalent of "water hammer"
> (what happens when you quickly shut off flow of a large
> amount of water moving in a pipe -- the mass of the water wants
> to keep moving, and the pressure at the valve spikes to many
> times the ordinary water pressure).
And a voltage spike "many" times the supply voltage I can accept. 2x,
certainly; 10x well, maybe; 1000x no way.
A project I once worked on involved characterising the voltage behaviour
of a PWM'd solenoid coil and based on this experience I am quite
convinced that spikes of 40,000V are not happening on a 48V contactor.
If you have seen otherwise, I'd love to see a scope plot capturing it.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will ASAP, thanks for warning!!
Victor
Andrew Letton wrote:
I haven't been following this thread, but I did once have a similar
problem on my ICE car, and I found that the bolts holding one of the
front control arm bushing mounts had backed out about 1/4", allowing the
arm to move and change the steering geometry with acceleration and
deceleration. Had the bolts fallen out completely before I discovered
them, the right wheel would have gone one direction, the left wheel
another....leading to a very messy situation! Check out your
suspension mounts now, not later!
cheers,
Andrew
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. OK, I'll make a note to check rear wheels
alignment. BTW, do you know if rear wheels must be set
to "0" toe in (they are adjusted independently) or what is
the recommended number?
Victor
Reverend Gadget wrote:
This is a common problem. It may be rear wheel
alignment. Have you ever seen a vehicle "crabbing"
down the street? where the rear end is slightly off
from the front track, driving down the road at a
slight angle. check the rear end, if it is the problem
it should fix the torque steer as well as the rolling
resistance. It could be that one rear wheel is out of
alignment causing the extra drag and the crabbing.
Gadget
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ACRX normally uses 1Ah/mile, but this is not too
meaningful
for omparison at diferent voltages.
I consume ~200Wh/mile (@ 35mph), which is very
average.
Dragging rear brakes and wrong tires are
contributors to that.
Also, I suspect front alignment needs work and here
is
the area you may know the answer at:
When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little, and
when
slowing down using only regen on front wheels -
pulls right.
It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
Almost like having constant brake or friction around
left (?) half shaft, so the torque of acceleration
or braking
is not divided quite evenly. Another reason in
theory may be that
the front tires diameters are differnt, but they are
inflated
to the same PSI so I can't imagine this to be the
case.
Which suspension element or parameter (camber,
caster. etc)
can be responsible for this behavior? Or it is not
suspension at all?
The car is straight, never been in an accident.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4 mile
provided
minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate,
because put
efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used
in the qt.mi is?And what is
your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi
run including the drive to
the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs
1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
Berube
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking for component/circuit ideas for adding some brains to my
charger. It is a simple rectified variac setup. The variac is motorized
and I have a basic stamp I want to use as the brains. Anyone have any
favorite ideas for measuring voltage and current and feeding the info to the
Stamp. Any good ideas about what to use to drive the motor? The variac is
rated for 20 amps and 180 volts. It's the Staco #033-6565 being sold at
http://www.fairradio.com/variac.htm.
I will be going on a business trip in a couple of weeks and thought this
might be a good way to keep myself occupied in the hotel, but in order to do
so I will need to be prepared ahead of time.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was getting excited about the competition until I read rule #1. Now all I
can think is...boring. The competition will probably be decided by who has
the most cash and best connections to obtain the highest efficiency solar
cells.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lightning Ryan
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I've never heard of any heat engine hitting 52%, do you have a reference?
No, just dreaming, like the 30% Fresnel Concentrator setup, which would
probably be better, and would shurely top any plain pv (even high end).
> As for the slow startup time, well it's a drag race....
> rev the engine and dump the clutch ;-)
Ya, but the rules say...
2. Batteries, capacitors, flywheels, or energy storage devices
(if any) must be completely de-energized and in an uncharged
state prior to the start of each race heat.
So, When exactly is the "start of each race heat"?
Does that include the trip from the pits to the starting line?
1. Solar-only powered dragsters will race head-to-head using
only solar electric cells and electric motors.
Looks like stirlings are out, "only solar electric cells".
L8r
Ryan
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
>> For additional rules and information you can check out the web page:
>> http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor just checking that your comment on tire size is about air
pressure, they are the same tire size , correct? that will burn up your
differential very fast.
Since you have torque steer on accelearation and deceleration but not on
braking I am gonna guess that toe,caster and camber are all not the problem.
Furthormore , braking puts the largest outward torque at the wheels
resulting in toe out and as the wheel transitions form toe in to toe out
the vehicle drifts unnaturally to whichever wheel has the most retarding
force. So even the toe sounds correct.
How about something that got changed, motor mounts allowing the motor to
move in such a way as to change half shaft angles enough to cause a bind .
one thing different in RWD was the motor twist, but you are a traverse
drive, so even that is out.
Some alignment basics (paints target on back, Please correct me if you
have more accurate info)
Toe-out makes a car skitish on acceleration and deceleration. Can be
used to help turn in on slolam courses. Toe-in exists to take up for
soft bushings at just enought to insure it is always toe-in.
Camber effects cornering ability(Counter act loss of tire patch caused
by caster during steering) but is not easily felt in a straight line
until you hit 3 degrees or so and that is because it influences caster.
Caster makes a car stable at speed. < 1 degree feels like an MG midget
and requires two hands at highway speeds and 1 finger at parking lot speed.
caster > 3-5 degrees feels like a cadillac and requires 1 finger at
highway speeds and both hands, arms, and "put yout back into it" at
parking lot speeds.
recap
You want enough toe-in to take care of bushing slop, get better
bushings, reduce toe-in and guarentte better milage.
You want enough caster to maintain negative caster during braking, if
caster reduction during hard braking caused by dive gets < .5 degree it
will want to yank the wheel out of your hand and go left or right.
Resulting in that little left-right dance to a hard stop.
You want enough camber to get even tire wear. Or max cornering :-)
To develop these numbers, buy a tire pyrometer. go for a drive and
measure all tires in rotation
measure an inch from inside, the center and in the outside inch
measure all 4 tires in same rotation every time then measure first tire
again to get an idea of the heat loss
measure the rubber just under the surface, not the surface
ok outside center inside
hot med
low positive camber adjust more negative
hot hot
low Positive camber and high air pressure
low med
hot to much negative
low high
low pressure to high
high low
high pressure to low
high high
high compared to other wheel on same axle. draging brakes,
or scrubbing due to uneven toe or caster
etc
.
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--- Begin Message ---
Well I definitely have a solution!!
But not for $300 Bucks.
That price is a boost transformer and bridge rectifier, and a stop watch and
meters.
Hands off PFC charging.. from 100 to 240 input and 12 to 450 VDC output is
what I sell.
It still baffles me that somebody would spend a couple of thousand bucks on
a battery pack, and then Cheap out on a third world charger.
I learned long ago, a good charger hand build or not was worth every penny.
----- Original Message -----
From: "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: help
>
> Hi Guys, can any one in the group make me a 144 volt batterycharger
> @110 volt input??or know where I can get one for about 300$ were in
> a bind, we have a Ranger sitting here all done and billed out. Now
> were starting our 6th truck. prob is that this coustmer wanted to
> have us get a charger.and not buy his own.Something happened with
> the building of the charger, now were in a sticky situation. I
> could really use your guys help...Thanks Sharon
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Installing a freewheel diode across the coil prevents the voltage spike
by providing a path for the current to flow at the instant that coil
power is removed. The voltage across the coil is now clamped to the
diode's forward drop (typically <1V).
A little trick I learned when I interned for a contactor mfr. is to
put a Zener diode in series with the diode (oriented the opposite
direction). The voltage rating for the Zener should be roughly what
the coil is designed to be driven at.
This e.g. 12V drop will soak up the power stored in the coil much
more quickly than the 0.7V drop of a just a diode. The coil current
drops off much faster and the contacts open with quite a bit more
oomph (to the point that can actually hear the difference).
I do something similar to this. I ship all my Zillas with TVS devices
for placement on the contactor coils. TVS stands for Transient
Voltage Suppressor. These are one small part that essentially acts
like two zener diodes back to back. They offer the advantage of
electronic protection of the circuits while also allowing the
contactor coil field to collapse quickly due to the higher voltage.
As an added bonus, they are bidirectional and so there is no need to
pay attention to polarity when installing them. The one I provide is
a 1.5KE24CA-T.
Data sheet is available here.
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Diodes_Inc/Web%20Data/1.5ke6v8(c)a-1.5ke400(c)a.pdf
If anyone needs one, I'll be happy to mail one to anywhere in the US
for a buck. Shipping and handling included. Such a deal! Or you can
order them from Digikey which is what I do.
btw, If you are using Kilovac contactors beware that a standard diode
will reduce the turn off speed so much that they will no longer meet
their ratings. Thanks to Rich Brown for researching that issue for us
all. It was that which caused me to find the TVS part.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like the other guys said, Other than the natural FWD problem and kingpin
inclination angle going thru the patch that is for the real torque steer
is really small on honda with the way they did their front suspension.
( argument on torque steer is an old lively one, I offically withdraw
from that now, I used the term wrong) I though we might be looking for
something "not normal"
Honda does however have a really short and a really long half shaft.
Are the tires the original O.D.?
This brings up a good point. Some people were talking about
changing tire size to alter gearing. The real torque steer effect Frank
mentioned is set at the factory in the geometry of the "kingpin angle"
as a line drawn thru the suspension points to the estimated center of
the tire patch. a change in wheel offset or tire diameter can muck this up.
I have a pontiac grand am with too much torque(did I say that outloud?)
and it dances during hard acceleration, Darn FWDs.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
At 5:20 PM -0500 2-17-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used in the qt.mi is?And what is
your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi run including the drive to
the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs 1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
Berube
I'm wondering, now that Dennis is in second place for the ADRA Super
pro points standing (1), maybe he's feeling the lack of competition.
Otherwise why would he suddenly start releasing data that until
recently was kept very close?
I'm pretty sure this is the fist time I've heard what his car weighs
and how much energy it uses. Very interesting! Also very efficient
(even at max controller voltage)! I wonder what voltage he actually
is running these days?
Ref (1) http://www.metzcon.com/adra/stats.htm
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess what I am most interested in is why or how this race came into
being. I understand how NEDRA drag racing came about because I was there. It
was because we already had several electric car drag racers out there and
they decided they wanted to hold their own events. I guess my question would
be: How many solar powered dragsters are currently out there? I've never
seen one at a NEDRA event even showing up to do demos or to try and spark
interest. Just my curiosity acting up again.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
I was getting excited about the competition until I read rule #1. Now all
I
can think is...boring. The competition will probably be decided by who
has
the most cash and best connections to obtain the highest efficiency solar
cells.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lightning Ryan
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I've never heard of any heat engine hitting 52%, do you have a reference?
No, just dreaming, like the 30% Fresnel Concentrator setup, which would
probably be better, and would shurely top any plain pv (even high end).
As for the slow startup time, well it's a drag race....
> rev the engine and dump the clutch ;-)
Ya, but the rules say...
2. Batteries, capacitors, flywheels, or energy storage devices
(if any) must be completely de-energized and in an uncharged
state prior to the start of each race heat.
So, When exactly is the "start of each race heat"?
Does that include the trip from the pits to the starting line?
1. Solar-only powered dragsters will race head-to-head using
only solar electric cells and electric motors.
Looks like stirlings are out, "only solar electric cells".
L8r
Ryan
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
>> For additional rules and information you can check out the web page:
>> http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
If you want to see something a bit more exciting and high paced you are
always invited to my house to watch the slugs race out of the wetlands and
into my wife's garden ;-)
From: "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:23:11 -0800
I was getting excited about the competition until I read rule #1. Now all
I
can think is...boring. The competition will probably be decided by who has
the most cash and best connections to obtain the highest efficiency solar
cells.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lightning Ryan
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I've never heard of any heat engine hitting 52%, do you have a
reference?
No, just dreaming, like the 30% Fresnel Concentrator setup, which would
probably be better, and would shurely top any plain pv (even high end).
> As for the slow startup time, well it's a drag race....
> rev the engine and dump the clutch ;-)
Ya, but the rules say...
2. Batteries, capacitors, flywheels, or energy storage devices
(if any) must be completely de-energized and in an uncharged
state prior to the start of each race heat.
So, When exactly is the "start of each race heat"?
Does that include the trip from the pits to the starting line?
1. Solar-only powered dragsters will race head-to-head using
only solar electric cells and electric motors.
Looks like stirlings are out, "only solar electric cells".
L8r
Ryan
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
>> For additional rules and information you can check out the web page:
>> http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/17/05 7:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< wonder what voltage he actually
is running these days? >>
There are 30 ep16 hawkers in 1 string
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I can sure participate the racing. I times myself a couple of
times and it was somewhere between 12 and 13 seconds, close
to 13 I think.
This is 0-60MPH, not 1/4mi.
My bad, yes, it is 0-60 mph. That shows how much do I care :-)
The point is not to compete, but just to run the car down the track,
pushing it only as hard as you are comfortable doing.
OK, I can run it few times if you ask nicely :-)
I'm afraid, though it may not pass formal safety inspection.
It would be
foolish to expect your car to outperform John or Otmar's vehicles in a
contest of power given that we know they have several times the peak
power capability of your car.
Granted.
It would strictly be an educational experience. You would have a better
appreciation for what is involved in this form of competition (hey, you
might even discover that you like it, and choose to build a racer
yourself ;^).
I don't plan to be a racer, so with all respect to racers,
I don't care what is involved. I do appreciate all the
work put in their vehicles, but the level of appreciation
does not depend of the runs result - I appreciate enginuity and
craftsmanship, and personalities.
You know your car's specs, and you know the specs of
John's, Otmar's, and others; after you run it down the strip and collect
your timeslip you will know where it fits relative to them acceleration
wise. It might be an eye opener if the reality differs significantly
from your expectations.
Sorry, personally I don't care where it fits. But like I said, I may
run it because keep hearing others do care and keep asking.
Or one of following years...
One day I hope to run my car there. Do I expect to outperform Rich's
Goldie or steal a NEDRA record from anyone? Absolutely not! But, even
if my car takes 2x as long to complete the 1/4mi as Goldie I will have
fun and come away knowing how good or bad its relative performance is.
That is YOU.
Performance of ACRX is very good, but I don't care about *a number*.
Ultimately you have to decide if you are willing to run your car down
the track, and ultimately, you are the one who controls how hard it is
pushed (and therefore the likelihood of breaking something). I know I'm
not the only one curious to see how an AC conversion would perform, so I
hope you do decide to run it sometime. But I understand your arguments
against it; none of us are made of money.
Do we have any AC Rangers? Anyone with RAV4 or still leased EV-1
willing to drive from CA for fun?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on the manufacturer. I seen some at 0 and up
to 1/8" of toe in. Oval racers actually set their rear
end up off to the side to make use of the effect since
they only turn in one direction while racing.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting. OK, I'll make a note to check rear
> wheels
> alignment. BTW, do you know if rear wheels must be
> set
> to "0" toe in (they are adjusted independently) or
> what is
> the recommended number?
>
> Victor
>
> Reverend Gadget wrote:
>
> > This is a common problem. It may be rear wheel
> > alignment. Have you ever seen a vehicle "crabbing"
> > down the street? where the rear end is slightly
> off
> > from the front track, driving down the road at a
> > slight angle. check the rear end, if it is the
> problem
> > it should fix the torque steer as well as the
> rolling
> > resistance. It could be that one rear wheel is out
> of
> > alignment causing the extra drag and the crabbing.
> >
> > Gadget
> > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>ACRX normally uses 1Ah/mile, but this is not too
> >>meaningful
> >>for omparison at diferent voltages.
> >>
> >>I consume ~200Wh/mile (@ 35mph), which is very
> >>average.
> >>Dragging rear brakes and wrong tires are
> >>contributors to that.
> >>
> >>Also, I suspect front alignment needs work and
> here
> >>is
> >>the area you may know the answer at:
> >>
> >>When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little,
> and
> >>when
> >>slowing down using only regen on front wheels -
> >>pulls right.
> >>
> >>It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
> >>
> >>Almost like having constant brake or friction
> around
> >>left (?) half shaft, so the torque of acceleration
> >>or braking
> >>is not divided quite evenly. Another reason in
> >>theory may be that
> >>the front tires diameters are differnt, but they
> are
> >>inflated
> >>to the same PSI so I can't imagine this to be the
> >>case.
> >>
> >>Which suspension element or parameter (camber,
> >>caster. etc)
> >>can be responsible for this behavior? Or it is not
> >>suspension at all?
> >>The car is straight, never been in an accident.
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>>In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific
> >>
> >>Standard Time,
> >>
> >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >>>
> >>><< Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4
> mile
> >>
> >>provided
> >>
> >>> minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate,
> >>
> >>because put
> >>
> >>> efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
> >>>Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used
> >>
> >>in the qt.mi is?And what is
> >>
> >>>your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi
> >>
> >>run including the drive to
> >>
> >>>the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs
> >>
> >>1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
> >>
> >>>Berube
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I think about it, the symptoms would indicate that
the rear end is riding slightly to the left of the
front. you could always check it by driving on smooth
dirt road and look at your tracks or have someone in
another car follow behind you and take a look. I saw a
car on the freeway today with about 3" of offset from
front to rear. I bet that car was a nightmare to
drive. It doesn't take much to make a noticeable
difference, even a fraction of an inch will be
noticeable to the conscientious driver.
Gadget
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting. OK, I'll make a note to check rear
> wheels
> alignment. BTW, do you know if rear wheels must be
> set
> to "0" toe in (they are adjusted independently) or
> what is
> the recommended number?
>
> Victor
>
> Reverend Gadget wrote:
>
> > This is a common problem. It may be rear wheel
> > alignment. Have you ever seen a vehicle "crabbing"
> > down the street? where the rear end is slightly
> off
> > from the front track, driving down the road at a
> > slight angle. check the rear end, if it is the
> problem
> > it should fix the torque steer as well as the
> rolling
> > resistance. It could be that one rear wheel is out
> of
> > alignment causing the extra drag and the crabbing.
> >
> > Gadget
> > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>ACRX normally uses 1Ah/mile, but this is not too
> >>meaningful
> >>for omparison at diferent voltages.
> >>
> >>I consume ~200Wh/mile (@ 35mph), which is very
> >>average.
> >>Dragging rear brakes and wrong tires are
> >>contributors to that.
> >>
> >>Also, I suspect front alignment needs work and
> here
> >>is
> >>the area you may know the answer at:
> >>
> >>When I accelerate, the car pulls left a little,
> and
> >>when
> >>slowing down using only regen on front wheels -
> >>pulls right.
> >>
> >>It doesn't pull at all if I use disk brakes.
> >>
> >>Almost like having constant brake or friction
> around
> >>left (?) half shaft, so the torque of acceleration
> >>or braking
> >>is not divided quite evenly. Another reason in
> >>theory may be that
> >>the front tires diameters are differnt, but they
> are
> >>inflated
> >>to the same PSI so I can't imagine this to be the
> >>case.
> >>
> >>Which suspension element or parameter (camber,
> >>caster. etc)
> >>can be responsible for this behavior? Or it is not
> >>suspension at all?
> >>The car is straight, never been in an accident.
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>>In a message dated 2/16/05 6:48:04 PM Pacific
> >>
> >>Standard Time,
> >>
> >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >>>
> >>><< Or, let's compete who sips less Wh per 1/4
> mile
> >>
> >>provided
> >>
> >>> minimum speed is maintained. I WILL participate,
> >>
> >>because put
> >>
> >>> efforts to optimize ACRX in that res >>
> >>>Hi Victor what would you suppose your amp hr used
> >>
> >>in the qt.mi is?And what is
> >>
> >>>your car weight?The CE uses 1.1amp hr per qt.mi
> >>
> >>run including the drive to
> >>
> >>>the lanes and back from the time booth.It weighs
> >>
> >>1383lbs with me in it.Dennis
> >>
> >>>Berube
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If we're drag racing with EVs, I can already tell you what the fastest
one is. It's whoever has the most symetrical megabits of internet
connectivity all the way between them and their destination.
Oh, we're not drag racing the Net? Well, it's a electric vehicle, isn't it?
ObEV: I was thinking it might be fun to make a electric, remote
controlled, solar powered dirigable. Anyone else think this sounds like
fun? I have the panels, but I'd need to figure out motors and lift bag
and compressor.. I'm guessing that one of Victor Tikhinov's Brusa vacuum pumps would make a good compressor, placed inside the lift bag. Not sure how much pressure those can develop (which would be important because it would be compressing into a aluminum canister - am I incorrect, or would this let me affect the bouyency and therefore lift of the craft?)
I'm not denying, by the way, that this comes under the category of
'extremely odd behavior'. But, it is a electric vehicle! Picture a world
in which this device replaced the UPS truck. Glue GPS to PDA to drive
system [and I can see all the glue from where I'm sitting, except the
digital duct tape that would be the software], and you've got a
interesting device that can deliver a package, self-routed. Bonus points for cool if you can figure out a BLDC drive for the compressor that enables you to regen-brake the expanding gas as it flows into the lift bag.
Obviously, this device needs a battery pack that is *light*. The working
gas could be hydrogen, and a fuel cell could power the device combining
the H2 with O from the air and dropping the water. Or we could use LiON. Since the battery doesn't have to run the motors, just the onboard computer (the solar panel runs the motors, and/or the expanding gas) a fuel cell could be reletively small and light.
Just playing with ideas over here. Is this enough of a electric vehicle
to qualify for the list? I can't remember if the charter specified cars.
Jonathan "Sheer" Pullen
--- End Message ---
