EV Digest 4125
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: March NBEAA meeting announcement
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: simple fuse indicator
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Multiple Breakers
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Light Weight Spool
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: max. wet cell temperatures (and OT Honda ICE batt.
regulators)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 100A Motor Controllers
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV and snow.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: your EV battery selection
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Battery Box Advice Sought
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: your EV battery selection
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Brakes on 300zx
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Regenerating a series wound motor
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Tour de Sol Registration
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Tour de Sol Early Reg deadline
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by Catbus Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: More calculator stuff
by Catbus Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday 2/26/04 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Direct drive - how to do it right
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Even though a lot of this list is from California, I'm not sure that you all
are aware of the letter that California recently wrote to Bush. I copied it to
my web site, www.ironandwood.org/Ca_succession.htm
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL post" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: March NBEAA meeting announcement
> March NBEAA Meeting Announcement
>
> 1 - ~3pm, Sunday, 13th March, 2005
>
> Fred Cork has invited NBEAA to be a part of his Oil on Ice house
> party on Sunday March 13. See http://nbeaa.org/cork.html for
> details.
>
> NBEAA has also been asked to participate again in the Earth Day
> Celebration
> at the Calpine Geothermal Visitor Center in Middletown this year.
> It will be on April 24th. The pages http://nbeaa.org and
> http://nbeaa.org/futuremeetings.htm#FutureEVents will have the
> details.
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> This may be a nice addition and doesn't consume power unless there is a
> problem Not that 42 LED's is that much, < 10W
Yeah, I think if you blow 42 fuses all at once, you've got bigger things
to worry about than loosing 10W of power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not just use linked breakers, i.e. when one goes off they both go off.
If you pop a breaker, chances are you want to investigate it RIGHT NOW
anyway. With two separate breakers, it's possible to have one pop and you
keep driving on the other half of the pack.
> If, with two parallel strings of batteries, you want the ability to turn
> off
> either one separately, or both together via a second breaker that also
> functions as an emergency shutoff, would the following setup work?
>
> +-------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+
> | Bat. Str. A |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===O| 400A Breaker |O==> 1231C
> +-------------+ +--------------+ |+--------------+
> |
> +-------------+ +--------------+ |
> | Bat. Str. B |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===+
> +-------------+ +--------------+
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't driven a car with a spool but I can guess, push,push,push. (RWD)
It will want to go straight. I set up a limit slip that took 125lb of
break away torque on my autocross truck and it pushed like a pig, just
wouldn't steer into the corners until I dialed in -3degrees camber and a
little toe out and added more front bar. A surprizing amount of change.
A car is like a balance scale, mess with the back and the front goes to
_ _ _ _ . Much more of an effect than a little tire scrub. Nascar ? ie
oval track? I think that with the banks and the stagger the straightest
line is the oval.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 02:55 PM 24/02/05 -0800, Roger wrote:
<snip>
This is 14.6V @ 27C. Temperature compensate by 0.030V/deg. C, so 14.0V
@50C, and 13.6V @ 60C.
Thank you, important to know.
> We are anticipating that the battery will not be deeply
> discharged during normal operations
Is the generator runnng continuously?
The generator is the magneto-induction coil on the ICE that provides motive
power (and vacuum for the throttle and brake actuators), so it is mainly
sitting in a semi-float condition.
I would strongly suggest that the vehicle either have the intelligence
to regularly report its system status (including battery voltage) by
radio to provide advance warning of an impending battery failure, or
preferrably, that it include some sort of emergency locating transmitter
with its own power source (e.g. primary batteries).
We discussed that with the client, but since it follows a pre-programmed
track they will know approximately where it is. If they do another one they
think they would have it continuously in communication. It turns out that
the navigation unit has a low battery alarm, that we can set the threshold
on. So at 10.5V (or whatever) we can make it kill the ICE and call for
help. Of course if the battery has died completely, then it would not call,
and they would have to go looking for it. But I think that a bunch of 'C'
cells may be a useful addition. Heck, eight AA cells would power the radio
for the length of time needed.
A flooded battery may be a poor choice for this application, since the
electrolyte will tend to evaporate in the high ambient.
And low Relative Humidity that goes along with it. But topping up with
distilled water is not a big deal (and they can drink that in an
emergency). But overall, water out there is a big issue ("showering" with a
damp cloth with a cup of water) so evaporative cooling is not an option.
One of the
advertised advantages of Optimas in automotive use is their ability to
survive higher temperature ambients better than flooded batteries, so a
Group 31 yellow or blue top might be a better choice.
We considered an AGM, but the concern there came that at the reduced
voltage at higher temperatures the charge rate may exceed the recombination
rate, and cause venting. I think we will need to put some instrumentation
on the machine and get some more information before we make a final
reccomendation to them.
They will also
stand up to vibration better and will keep on running even in the event
that the vehicle tips over (electrolyte will not spill out).
Which they want to avoid for other reasons, too.
Depending on the voltage output by the lighting coil, you might be
better off to use one of the aftermarket regulators targetting boaters
as they are reputed to provide a better charge profile than stock
regulators and may even have temperature compensation and/or
adjustability features. Locate the regulator near the battery so that
it 'sees' something more representative of the battery temperature.
I don't know if there are any for these type of generators. Plenty for
alternators, but I couldn't find one for this type. But I didn't try the
marine suppliers, there may be one for the same setup on an outboard motor.
Cheers,
Roger.
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Everyone,
Let me first apologize for the shameless plug...
The small EV Company I work with uses a 24V to 36V 100A controller on one of
the new products. The vehicle is an electric mini bike running at 36V.
Problem is the product launch has been delayed due to some mechanical
changes and they have lots of 100A controllers in stock and more are
scheduled to ship, so they need to sell them.
The controllers are usually $125 but they have them on eBay for $105 "Buy it
now". Just thought I'd pass the info along in case anyone was working on a
small EV or Scooter project.
Thanks and here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7136747121
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the current carrying capacity of 1/2" copper pipe flattened? My
guess is as follows:
1) a flattened copper pipe is approx 1"wide (24mm) or a circumference of 2"
(48mm)
2) a 2/0 gauge wire 0.36 inches in diameter (9.27mm) has a circumference of
0.816 inches (19.85mm)
3) if charge travels on the outside of a conductor, then this 1/2" flattened
pipe should be able to carry as much current as the 2/0 cable (and a bunch
more...)
vrai?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <outbind://3/www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Prizm totally *rocks* in the snow.
As in climed a 30 degree hill covered in snow. Just start driving, the
car has infinite torque just above stall so it can crawl up a slick hill.
Cars were stuck at the bottom. 4*4's were stuck at the bottom. The Prizm
just crawled right up. Yes, the motor was pulling 140amps at 300 volts,
but that's what the water cooling is for.
I am and continue to be impressed with the Prizm.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Don Cameron wrote:
>
> 1) a flattened copper pipe is approx 1"wide (24mm) or a circumference of 2"
> (48mm)
>
> 2) a 2/0 gauge wire 0.36 inches in diameter (9.27mm) has a circumference of
> 0.816 inches (19.85mm)
>
> 3) if charge travels on the outside of a conductor, then this 1/2" flattened
> pipe should be able to carry as much current as the 2/0 cable (and a bunch
> more...)
>
In regards to welding cable, I think it has something to do with all
the strands and the current travelling on the outside of each strand.
Examples:
2/0 - 1273 strands
3/0 - 1591
4/0 - 2035
Each strand being .010 in size if I am reading this right:
http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_005
"Battery cable" has nowhere near that many strands.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plumbing copper may not have the same electrical properties as elec
copper. No problem for short runs though.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Friday, 25 February 2005 3:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
What is the current carrying capacity of 1/2" copper pipe flattened? My
guess is as follows:
1) a flattened copper pipe is approx 1"wide (24mm) or a circumference of
2"
(48mm)
2) a 2/0 gauge wire 0.36 inches in diameter (9.27mm) has a circumference
of
0.816 inches (19.85mm)
3) if charge travels on the outside of a conductor, then this 1/2"
flattened
pipe should be able to carry as much current as the 2/0 cable (and a
bunch
more...)
vrai?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <outbind://3/www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Thanks again for making your project website such a great resource for the
hobby. The Deka 8G34 looks like an impressive choice, the only data missing
from your comparative spreadsheet seems to be a rating of how many amps each
battery can deliver. I'm planning on a 192 volt DC drive in my Karmann-Ghia,
and wondering how the Dekas would survive occaisional 1000 amp launches with a
Zilla 1k. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
Vancouver, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, Doug. I've accounted for the plates. On the top row of batteries, in
my mocked-up picture, you can see the straps. You're probably concerned
about the front 6 batteries. There's one plate on each side of them, as
well. It just doesn't show up well in my picture.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Hartley
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
Bill,
Whoa! Careful! It looks like you are thinking of using the TS cells
without their aluminum end plates and strapping! They need to be strapped
together, cell to cell, broad sides against each other, not thin sides,
using the hardware supplied by Thunder Sky. They should not be unstrapped,
due to internal pressure, until discharged to an appropriate level as
described in TS battery manual. A practical arrangement, which weighs
about 40 pounds and is similar in size to a 6V GC battery, is a module of 3
of the 200A-Hr. cells strapped together.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Battery Box Advice Sought
snip
>
> The third image shows my (artistically poor!) attempt at demonstrating
> what
> the TS cell arrangement will look like in the box.
>
> The front part of the box will hold around 275 pounds of TS cells, and the
> rear part of the box will hold around 190 pounds of TS cells.
>
> All advice appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> What is the current carrying capacity of 1/2" copper pipe flattened?
> My guess is as follows:
>
> 1) a flattened copper pipe is approx 1" wide (24mm) or a circumference
> of 2" (48mm)
>
> 2) a 2/0 gauge wire 0.36 inches in diameter (9.27mm) has a
> circumference of 0.816 inches (19.85mm)
>
> 3) if charge travels on the outside of a conductor, then this 1/2"
> flattened pipe should be able to carry as much current as the
> 2/0 cable (and a bunch more...)
#3 is your error. At DC, the entire bulk of the conductor carries the
current. All you need to consider is cross sectional area, not surface
area.
But for AC current, the "skin effect" begins to appear. The higher the
AC frequency, the less depth it penetrates into the conductor. But it
can be ignored for anything but very high frequencies. For example, the
skin depth at 60 Hz is over 0.5", so it has no effect on a 1" diameter
solid copper bar.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay, thanks for the positive encouragement. Yes, I hope the Dekas will
work well for my application. Also, you are right about me missing a
critical piece of information: the amount of current the battery can
deliver. Unfortunately, the Gels are not too good at delivering current
like the flooded or AGMs. The East Penn application engineers say 250 Amps
max, and not to do it too often. I also spoke at length with a lot of
people, and even in my higher voltage/lower current system I may experience
a large voltage sag when accelerating up hills. It will be an experiment.
Although I am not an expert, I would suggest looking at something other than
the gels if you want the pull a lot of current. Too bad, as they have
worked out for a lot of Solectria users and are the best bang for the buck
in available battery technology. They have a long life, not as subject to
balancing problems and are inexpensive to purchase.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: February 24, 2005 8:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: your EV battery selection
Don,
Thanks again for making your project website such a great resource for the
hobby. The Deka 8G34 looks like an impressive choice, the only data missing
from your comparative spreadsheet seems to be a rating of how many amps each
battery can deliver. I'm planning on a 192 volt DC drive in my
Karmann-Ghia, and wondering how the Dekas would survive occaisional 1000 amp
launches with a Zilla 1k. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
Vancouver, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee,
So the cross sectional area of the flattened copper pipe is 1" x 0.1" = 0.1
in sq. This is just a bit smaller than the cross section area of a 2/0
cable, so I am still in the clear.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: February 24, 2005 11:35 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
Don Cameron wrote:
> What is the current carrying capacity of 1/2" copper pipe flattened?
> My guess is as follows:
>
> 1) a flattened copper pipe is approx 1" wide (24mm) or a circumference
> of 2" (48mm)
>
> 2) a 2/0 gauge wire 0.36 inches in diameter (9.27mm) has a
> circumference of 0.816 inches (19.85mm)
>
> 3) if charge travels on the outside of a conductor, then this 1/2"
> flattened pipe should be able to carry as much current as the
> 2/0 cable (and a bunch more...)
#3 is your error. At DC, the entire bulk of the conductor carries the
current. All you need to consider is cross sectional area, not surface area.
But for AC current, the "skin effect" begins to appear. The higher the AC
frequency, the less depth it penetrates into the conductor. But it can be
ignored for anything but very high frequencies. For example, the skin depth
at 60 Hz is over 0.5", so it has no effect on a 1" diameter solid copper
bar.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Their are a few vacuum pumps out there , I put one on the 300zx i just did
and this would seem easyer than replacing the master cyl , and you then have
power brakes.
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: Brakes on 300zx
I am finishing up my adapter to get the warp 9 married up to the nissan
tranny and am looking forward into the other "stuff" I need to do.
How reasonable would it be to change master cyl or calipers and eliminate
the power brake booster. I would like to keep this car simple it is
already going to be overweight.
willwood,tilton? Anyone have nissan 300zx suggestions. (1987 300zx-
"z31" )
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can try using a seperate, small PWM controller to drive the field
(I'm not sure if that's what you're describing below?). It would give
a constant torque regen (depending on the current limit of the
controller), just like engine braking.
I did try this at one point, using a large schottky diode to bypass
the main controller while regenerating (not sure if this is necessary
but better safe than sorry). I used a 24V, 80A PWM controller with a
small 12V SLA battery to try it out. It did seem to work in my
driveway but I accidentally broke the small controller and never got
around to fixing it and trying it again.
It could be that there's a fundamental flaw in all this so I would be
interested to find out if it would really work properly or not.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:54:06 +1100, djsharpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for your reply.
> The alternator idea would be far to midland there is no room to fit.
> I have agonised over ideas to regenerate with this controller/drive
> system. It seems to me that the controller could feed the series field
> direct with the armature bypassing the controller either using the built
> in back diodes of the mosfets or separate ones to the battery. When you
> put your foot on the brakes the controller feed the field only. You
> could train your self to apply force to brake pedal and accelerator
> pedal at same time. The harder you hit the accel pedal the more braking.
> If the controller does not like field only perhaps some additional
> inductance could be added. I should think formidable braking would be
> available this way and if you have a gearbox you could flip thru the
> gears like an F1 driver. My travels take me thru hilly country where
> mechanical braking is needed if no elec braking can be done.
> Perhaps you would be brave to try this out. A blown controller is
> expensive to repair.
> David Sharpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Friday, 25 February 2005 4:32 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Regenerating a series wound motor
>
> David Sharpe wrote:
> > I have a converted Diahatsu Charade that I bought from the CSIRO
> > here in Melbourne Australia. It has a 4001A 9" motor and DCP1200
> > controller on 144V 99Ahr Panasonic batteries. I would like to get
> > engine braking automatically. Can the controller be arranged to
> > supply the field only and connect the armature direct to the
> > batteries during braking?
>
> This motor and controller aren't designed for "engine" or regenerative
> braking. It could be added to them, but it's a lot of trouble and
> probably not worth the effort.
>
> A much better method would be to add a separate generator or alternator
> for engine braking / regenerative braking. In its simplest form, it is
> an ordinary auto alternator belt-driven from the traction motor much
> like it would be in a normal car. Use the brake light switch to command
> the alternator to full power when you step on the brakes. This will dump
> braking energy into the car's 12v accessory battery. This will give you
> mild "engine" braking; about like a normal car if you simply take your
> foot off the accellerator.
>
> For more aggressive braking, use a larger alternator, chosen or rewound
> to charge the main propulsion pack. You'll have to build your own
> voltage regulator to control the amount of charging current it produces
> -- basically a scaled-up version of the circuit in a normal alternator.
> This will produce braking force similar to a normal car when you
> downshift it.
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"While not as "pure" as a traditional hybrid, this technology returns
>much of the benefit at dramatically lower cost. Actually this IS
>hybrid technology, simply delivered via a belt instead of gears and
>couplings. Why am I not surprised to hear the usual suspects
>criticizing this technology instead of praising it?
>
>
On the contrary.. I'm delighted by any research into hybrid-EV
operations, even if they are 'just' BAS systems - the more vehicles
built with traction power coming from a battery pack are deployed, the
more we will learn about battery management, drive systems, etc - and
the cheaper all of these things will be for us pure EV enthusiests.
The automakers have to walk before they can run - this is expected, and
good.
S."
An ICE motor requires far too much torque to get it moving to effectively be
able to start it with a belt drive. I think the engineers have got it right
when they went to incorporating the alternator/starter into the
flywheel/bell housing. Why they are not looking at doing this regardless of
whether or not they use it to start the motor I don't know. I say this as
most flywheels are a little bigger than the oil cooled 50dn found on a lot
of transit buses. So they have the size, the space, the oil is right there,
etc. It would allow them to have a minimum 350amps at 24volts. That is close
to 10kw's. If they incorporated p/m, efficiency could get close to 74%.
Turning the alternator into a starter would not be too difficult either.
DC/DC converters for 24 to 12 are cheap and readily available, regen is
built right in. So I cannot think of one good reason why this is not the
first step for them. It would eliminate ever excuse they have had for the
42volt setup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:26:29 -0500, "Raymond Knight"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>An ICE motor requires far too much torque to get it moving to effectively be
>able to start it with a belt drive.
That may be but they're doing it anyway. Read the Peugeot article I
posted or look at Visteon or any of the other major auto electric Tier
1 suppliers' web sites. Lots of information available.
>I think the engineers have got it right
>when they went to incorporating the alternator/starter into the
>flywheel/bell housing.
Perhaps in a theoretical engineering purity aspect but not in the real
world of low cost production.
>Why they are not looking at doing this regardless of
>whether or not they use it to start the motor I don't know.
The reason is simple and quite obvious. With a BAS, all the OEM has
to do is plop down a bigger device in place of the alternator. Maybe
modify the mount casting a little. Find someplace for the black box.
And of course, the new belt. Minimal increase in cost and minimal
impact on the production line.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"An ICE motor requires far too much torque to get it moving to effectively
be
able to start it with a belt drive. I think the engineers have got it right
when they went to incorporating the alternator/starter into the..."
I have to disagree with you, please remember that harley davidson
motorcycles have used belt drives for a long time, with no slippage or
broken belts, in fact those are a lot better (noise and maintenance) than
chain drives or gears.
Torque is not an issue. Also take into acccount that you can start an ICE
with a crank, not easy but it can be done.
Maybe there are other issues, but torque is not one of them
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Raymond Knight
Enviado el: viernes, 25 de febrero de 2005 10:26
Para: EV List
Asunto: Re: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
"While not as "pure" as a traditional hybrid, this technology returns
>much of the benefit at dramatically lower cost. Actually this IS
>hybrid technology, simply delivered via a belt instead of gears and
>couplings. Why am I not surprised to hear the usual suspects
>criticizing this technology instead of praising it?
>
>
On the contrary.. I'm delighted by any research into hybrid-EV
operations, even if they are 'just' BAS systems - the more vehicles
built with traction power coming from a battery pack are deployed, the
more we will learn about battery management, drive systems, etc - and
the cheaper all of these things will be for us pure EV enthusiests.
The automakers have to walk before they can run - this is expected, and
good.
S."
An ICE motor requires far too much torque to get it moving to effectively be
able to start it with a belt drive. I think the engineers have got it right
when they went to incorporating the alternator/starter into the
flywheel/bell housing. Why they are not looking at doing this regardless of
whether or not they use it to start the motor I don't know. I say this as
most flywheels are a little bigger than the oil cooled 50dn found on a lot
of transit buses. So they have the size, the space, the oil is right there,
etc. It would allow them to have a minimum 350amps at 24volts. That is close
to 10kw's. If they incorporated p/m, efficiency could get close to 74%.
Turning the alternator into a starter would not be too difficult either.
DC/DC converters for 24 to 12 are cheap and readily available, regen is
built right in. So I cannot think of one good reason why this is not the
first step for them. It would eliminate ever excuse they have had for the
42volt setup.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
2005 Tour de Sol Press Release
February 24, 2005
CONTACTS: Nancy Hazard (413) 774-6051 ext 18
Jim Dunn (508) 560-9421
TOUR DE SOL, AMERICA'S GREEN VEHICLE FESTIVAL, GOES TO NEW YORK
HYBRID AND BIODIESEL VEHICLE OWNERS, STUDENTS, AND GREEN VEHICLE MANUFACTURERS
INVITED TO PARTICIPATE
EARLY REGISTRATION
DEADLINE MARCH 1
SAVE $100
Greenfield, Mass - The Tour de Sol, America's high-tech, high-touch green "car
show" and competition is holding an all New York State event this May. And it
is offering new opportunities for hybrid and biodiesel vehicle owners and
students to get involved.
"We have created an all-new Monte Carlo-style Rally for people who own advanced
vehicles that reduce oil use and greenhouse gas emissions and are fun to
drive," says Nancy Hazard, event director from the Northeast Sustainable Energy
Association. "Dozens of hybrid, biodiesel, and electric cars from around the
northeast will converge at the Tour de Sol at Saratoga's Spring Auto Show, and
compete for special prizes."
From the drawing board ... to the show room ... to the customer's garage
Now in its 17th year, the Tour de Sol challenges auto companies, students,
entrepreneurs, fuel suppliers, and government to work together, and design,
build, and market vehicles that can meet our transportation needs without
compromising our future.
>From May 13-16, 2006, the general public is invited to see what Yankee
ingenuity has created. In addition to talking with advanced vehicle owners
participating it the Monte Carlo-style Rally, and students who have built
vehicles to compete in the Tour de Sol Championship, attendees will have an
opportunity to see three new hybrid SUV's, Honda and Toyota's hybrid sedans,
electric bikes and scooters, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
On Saturday, May 14, The Tour de Sol will be featured at Saratoga's Spring Auto
Show in Saratoga Springs, NY, which is organized by the Saratoga Auto Museum.
On Monday, May 16, there will be a free Tour de Sol display of over 50 vehicles
on Albany's Empire State Plaza.
The Tour de Sol is organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
(NESEA), the nation's leading regional education and advocacy association that
aims to accelerate the deployment and use of renewable energy, green buildings,
and energy efficiency in everyday life. NESEA produces major sustainable
energy events that inspire and motivate large numbers of people to get involved
and make a difference. For more information on the event and early
registration deadlines, go to www.TourdeSol.org or call 413-774-6051.
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Nancy Hazard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Friends of the Tour de Sol" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Tour de Sol Early Reg deadline
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:31:10 -0500
Dear friends of the Tour de Sol:
March 1 is the early registration deadline for the Tour de Sol Championship.
Register by March 1 - and save $100. Please go to www.TourdeSol.org for
registration fees and forms
There are three ways to register and participate in the May 13-16, 2005 Tour de
Sol:
- Tour de Sol Championship - 4-day event for Prototype and Production
Vehicles
- Monte Carlo-style Rally - 1-2 day event for advanced vehicle owners
- E-bike, e-scooter, and NEV events - 2-day event for hobbyists and
manufacturers
Each event listed above has its own registration form - please visit our web
site at www.TourdeSol.org. On our web site you will also find detailed
information on registration deadlines, Rules, Regulations, and Awards of these
events.
Organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) our 2005 Tour
de Sol has new exciting competitions, and a wonderful new venue - ideal for a
get-a-way weekend and much more!
Our weekend destination is Saratoga's Spring Auto Show held one of the most
beautiful and historic spas in the United States. The Saratoga Spa State Park
offers 250 landscaped acres, historic buildings with mineral spring baths,
golf, walking and biking trails, the historic Gideon Putnam Hotel, the Saratoga
Performing Arts Center, and our host, the Saratoga Auto Museum.
Following our exciting weekend activities, Tour de Sol participants will
display their vehicles with Clean Cities Stakeholders, in Albany at the New
York Sate capitol, just 35 miles south of Saratoga Springs, and visit with
decision-makers.
Don't miss out! Register today!
If you have questions, email the contacts listed below, or join us for Q&A any
Thursday at 5:30pm by calling 508-995-6619 code: 523.
Sincerely, Nancy Hazard NESEA Executive Director, for the many Tour de Sol
volunteers 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301
PS. NESEA will supply all vehicle numbers this year for Championship, e-bikes,
& Monte Carlo participants. If you have a car, please save a space on each
side of your vehicle for # and event ID: 12"high x 18" wide. E-bikes - you can
cut out the numbers and ID info to fit your bike.
If you have questions, please contact:
Tour de Sol Championship:
Pat Skelly: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call 609-586-6992 day or evening.
Monte Carlo-style Rally:
Craig Van Battenburg: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
e-bikes & Scooters:
Josh Kerson: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
NEVs & Exhibit:
Nancy Hazard: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Thanks Lee,
So the cross sectional area of the flattened copper pipe is 1" x 0.1" = 0.1
in sq. This is just a bit smaller than the cross section area of a 2/0
cable, so I am still in the clear.
To be more precise, it would be the cross sectional area of the
unsquashed pipe, minus the area of the hole.
using the standard formula for area of a circle:
area = pi*(radius*radius)
where pi is approximatly 3.1415
Assuming you are flattening the pipe yourself and are being gentle
enough about it to avoid thinning the pipe wall much.
The thinnest part of your conductor will have the highest resistance.
FWIW, I've read about large radio transmitters, where the frequency
makes the skin effect significant, using pipes as antenna feed lines and
running coolant through the pipes.
Mike Shipway
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi listees -
I've fixed a javascript problem and the EV Calculator is back up to speed with
the new variables, so now I'm back here begging for new info - feel free to
double check anything you feel may be in error, and let me know what might be
useful to everyone. Also, if anyone works with javascript, I'd love to add an
acceleration section - right now, the controller's peak current entry is a moot
point.
cowtown @ spamcop.net
If you can send me the math formuli and the HTML form you want to attach
it to, I can knock out the javascipt pretty quickly.
'Mad' Mike Shipway
Free range programmer
. . . Solar powered.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: EV Servicing - Aurenthetic EV Motorcycle
Date: Saturday, February, 26, 2005
Time: 10 am to 12 noon.
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
This meeting we will discuss servicing of EVs, and have a practical hands-on
interaction with an Aurenthetic motorcycle. Great way to understand some of the
existing EVs on the road and the used market.
Also will be discussing the recent activities with the EV1 Vigil and plans for
events this year.
Remember that our Spring EV display and Rally is coming up at the end of April.
And there's an All Chapters EAA conference in Austin, TX the first weekend of
April.
See you there.
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The area of concern is the area of flattened pipe (as measured), not the
pipe left as a whole. Are you assuming that part of the pipe will be left
whole? This is not the case. These are small 8 x 2.5 cm bars.
They also use pipes at large hydro dams for current carrying.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Catbus Mike
Sent: February 25, 2005 6:35 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Current Capacity of 1/2" Copper Pipe
Don Cameron wrote:
>Thanks Lee,
>
>So the cross sectional area of the flattened copper pipe is 1" x 0.1" =
>0.1 in sq. This is just a bit smaller than the cross section area of a
>2/0 cable, so I am still in the clear.
>
>
To be more precise, it would be the cross sectional area of the unsquashed
pipe, minus the area of the hole.
using the standard formula for area of a circle:
area = pi*(radius*radius)
where pi is approximatly 3.1415
Assuming you are flattening the pipe yourself and are being gentle enough
about it to avoid thinning the pipe wall much.
The thinnest part of your conductor will have the highest resistance.
FWIW, I've read about large radio transmitters, where the frequency makes
the skin effect significant, using pipes as antenna feed lines and running
coolant through the pipes.
Mike Shipway
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For my upcoming conversion project, I'd like to investigate the
possibility of doing direct drive. I haven't made my decision yet, but
I'd like to get as much information as I can about how to go about it.
I'm aware of reasons why this might not be a good idea (no way to
disconnect the driveline in case the controller fails "on", etc), and
while I'm open to input on the pros/cons, what I'd really like to know is
how it's done.
I've looked at what pictures I could find of the one very successful
direct-drive setup I'm aware of (Wayland's White Zombie) and it appears
that there's a custom-machined fitting that fits on the motor shaft, this
bolts to a strange-looking, flat-mating U-joint on a short shaft with a
male spline at the other end, which is supported by a crossmember and a
what looks like a large pillow block. I would guess that from there to the
rear end would be a pretty typical driveshaft setup.
John, do I have this wrong? I really wish I'd paid more attention on the
occasions I've seen the car in person! Are such parts available, or was
this all totally custom-made?
Does anyone else have a direct-drive setup, with a different arrangement?
Short of doing the above, I'm guessing all I might need is something that
acts like the tail housing on a tranny, to support the output spline. This
would require that I can mount the motor just right, which might be why
John's using an additional U-joint (?)...
--chris
--- End Message ---
