EV Digest 4134
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Low cost 45 mph electric vehicle. VW motor/adapter kit. Here is one of
many bugs.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Welding Aluminum
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1500 dollar complete VW conversion.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 1500 dollar complete VW conversion.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Hygrometers, eq'ing, water cons., and 8 mo. floodies, revisited
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: charger
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 3 phase PM
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) If series regen's not a good idea, what about plug braking?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by "Tim Medeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NEDRA Vegas, 4/9/05, who is going?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19)
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Selenium Rectifiers was 3ph alt discussion
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: charger
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Here is just one possible glider to make your low speed VW conversion. Just
needs a body. Got Kit? This pan for 300 dollars the kit and batteries
would be under 2500 dollars. This has got to be the best bargain in a 5
passenger EV for city and limited range use. This glider ready for a kit
body is in Santa Rosa. I got on Craigs list and found about 50 listings in
the San Francisco Bay area alone for VW bugs old style. The Adapter costs
500 dollars. If you just got this you could use your own motor and
controller. For sure it would be easy to make a two motor adapter using the
one motor version as a template.. Motors tucked away and plenty of room for
batteries. John Wayland watch out. The little bug might challenge your
mighty Datsuns. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: J Prospect
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: VW BUG Chassis - complete or parts (santa rosa)
The pan with, trans & axles, full front end, brakes, wheels, tires, shocks,
and front seats. Trans works fine. Im asking 300 or best offer. ALL OFFERS
CONSIDERED.
Thanks, J
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just the pan with tranny and full running gear minus the motor? SEats?
Interior? Rugs? How much again? LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: J Prospect
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: VW BUG Chassis - complete or parts (santa rosa)
No, it is not complete. It is just the bottom half of the car. The pan
only, No body. Still interested?
Neat concept tho, good luck!
Thanks, J
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Your Bug looks good for electric conversion.
http://www.e-volks.com/about.html
I have a friend that might be interested. I am assuming it is complete
except for the motor. Perfect for our project. How much bottom line.
Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
More info on the 3M VHB tape at this site:
http://www.robgray.com/motorhomes/diary/diary_23/diary.htm
(Read this page and the following 2-3 pages.)
Tim
-----
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:30:18 -0800 (PST)
> From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: Welding Aluminum
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> If you can get a good contact area, 3M makes
> structural tape. This stuff is especially good when
> connecting aluminum to steel as it will isolate the
> two materials. This stuff is amazing. It is used to
> apply the body panels on some of the newer buses and I
> saw some holding the panels on the Getty Center.
>
> Gadget
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--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm Tom. 15 Horsepower continuous(40hp peak) ,5&1/4" dia. x 12&1/2" long
series-wound Motor made by AC-Delco,. Lots of heat disipating power I
would think. I have reports of it going 35mph. They say 45mph. The
Adapter is available seperately. I think it would be possible to (by using
the adapter as a template make a two motor version. It's interesting
because the motors would tuck up over the axles allowing room for lots of
batteries in the back. I'd think this would make a better EV than an NEV.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: 1500 dollar complete VW conversion.
Yes, the VW conversion kit is interesting. But, it would perform very
poorly.
The motor is too small to drive a VW even with the drive reduction
provided by the belt drive. The motor looks suspiciously like an
old Ford automobile starter. These starters were often used for
driving a variety of things because they had a long straight shaft
that could be fitted with a pulley, sprocket, etc.. They had small
brushes and commutators and sleeve
bearings suitable for intermittent use like a starter but not for
continuous duty. The claims for horsepower, 15 continous and 40
intermittent are outrageous. At 36 volts, 15 hp requires at least 400
amps and 40 hp requires at least 1100. The little motor simply
couldn't handle such high currents.
To make a serious EV would require a motor like the ADC 8-inch
and at least a 96-volt battery pack. With a better motor the belt
drive could be dispensed with and the motor coupled directly
to the transmission input shaft.
Of more interest to me on tne web site are the hub motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:35 AM
Subject: 1500 dollar complete VW conversion.
These guys have some interesting concepts & a very inexpensive VW
conversion. A light kit body and a sub 2000 pound weight would be very
interesting. Looks like this kit could be completed in a weekend.
Anybody done one?
http://www.e-volks.com/index.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to talk about what a serious EV is. Isn't a serious vehicle is one
that meets your needs? 96v and 60 mph might be your need. Some could get
by with 25mph. NEV sales are hot now. This vehicle is certainly faster
than an NEV. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: 1500 dollar complete VW conversion.
Tom Shay wrote:
Yes, the VW conversion kit is interesting. But, it would perform
very poorly.
Yes; they do talk about a 35 mph top speed, m0-mile range with 3 12v
batteries, or 20 miles with 6 golf cart batteries. These sound
relatively honest -- not the usual wild exaggerations we sometimes see.
The motor is too small to drive a VW even with the drive reduction
provided by the belt drive. The motor looks suspiciously like an
old Ford automobile starter.
The motor is small by EV standards, but too big to be a Ford starter.
I'd guess it is about 5" diameter and 14" long, so a bit bigger than a
golf cart motor.
The claims for horsepower, 15 continous and 40 intermittent are
outrageous. At 36 volts, 15 hp requires at least 400 amps and
40 hp requires at least 1100. The little motor simply couldn't
handle such high currents.
To be fair, "continuous" in a vehicle that goes 30 mph with a 10 mile
range is only 20 minutes. I could believe that this size motor could run
that long if it has a cooling blower (although none is shown).
To make a serious EV would require a motor like the ADC 8-inch
and at least a 96-volt battery pack.
Yes, for a normal-weight car and normal highway speeds. But I got the
impression that this is more like a neighborhood EV, like a CitiCar.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I pretty much pull 2-4 kWh out of the batteries
> > each day and charge the 144V pack each night to
> 186V,
> > and hold it there for 15 mins.
> > Every 2-3 weeks, I take it to 186V and hold it
> > there for 1-2 hours.
>
> You are almost certainly not charging enough.
> 186V/72 cells is
> 2.583V/cell, which is US Battery's recommendation...
> at a temperature of
> about 26.7C/80F. You note that it has been chilly
> lately, which makes
> me suspect you should be charging to a higher
> voltage
> (+0.005V/cell/degree C, or +0.36V/degree C for the
> 144V string).
>
> Also, once you reach the target voltage, you need to
> hold that until the
> current tapers to a few percent of the rated Ah
> capacity (e.g. about
> 3A), not 15min or 1-2hr.
Hmmm... I had set my charger to begin tapering at 165
volts or so, and was tapering down the current _as_ it
got to the 186V
By the time the charger
> shuts off you want to
> have returned about 110% of the Ah that were
> removed. If you set the
> timer for a longish period (e.g. 4-5hr) and monitor
> the current, you can
> determine how long it must be set to in order that
> the current tapers to
> 3A.
Yep, that part's in the charger setup guide...
>
> You can also determine how much longer you need to
> let the charger run
> in order that 110% of the Ah removed are returned
> (watch your E-Meter,
> and beware that it will reset the Ah display then it
> thinks the charged
> parameters are met, so that even though it counts
> upwards after that,
> there may be a few Ah 'missing'; e.g. you discharge
> to -100Ah, then
> recharge. At -5Ah the Emeter resets to 0. At the
> end of charge you see
> +20; this means 125Ah or 125% of the Ah removed have
> been returned, not
> 120Ah/120% as you would first think). Oh, and the
> E-Meter also
> 'discounts' charge Ah by the CEF, so unless you have
> set it to 0.99, you
> need to take that into account also (e.g. CEF=0.90
> means that every Ah
> put back into the pack is only counted as 0.9Ah by
> the E-meter, so by
> the time it indicates 100Ah returned, you have
> actually returned 111Ah).
This is the toughie. At least I think it is... See,
the E-meter operates off the DCDC, which is not on
unless the car is on. That's an issue, b/c it turns
on the controller, which shouldn't be on seeing 186V
or better...
>
> > The thing is, you don't hold it there for
> _time_,
> > you hold it there until the specific gravity is
> 1.265,
> > plus/minus a bit depending on temp.
>
> Actually, you want the specific gravity higher than
> that on traction
> batteries.
>
> For ~most~ floodeds, you can charge until the
> voltage stops rising and
> be fairly confident that the specific gravity has
> also risen as high as
> it is going to. You ought to see temperature
> compensated specific
> gravities around 1.290 (or 1.300 for relatively new,
> healthy batteries).
>
Wow! Uh-oh. Time to re-set the charger!
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The K&W has a programmable charging voltage. It has
to have the proper resistor for the voltage of battery
pack you are trying to charge.
I am hoping you have the proper one in there.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stop charging. What batteries do you have? How
> many? Condition of the
> batteries. Are they new? Old? Used? If they are
> 6v 7.75 per flooded
> battery is about right. Multiply that by the number
> of 6v batteries and you
> have your charge voltage. . Give us some numbers
> and we can help. Untill
> then don't charge. LR.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 10:56 AM
> Subject: charger
>
>
> > Hey,
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm new to EVing and just got my first EV on the
> road. It has a K&W BC-20
> > charger with a line booster.
> >
> > I put new batteries in the truck and tried to set
> the charger per the
> > instruction. However, the current gage did not
> drop to below 10 even
> > after
> > an 18 hour charge. (I used a volt meter and some
> jumper cables between the
> > most neg and most pos terminals 131.6 volts). I
> could hear the batteries
> > boiling and some on the electrolyte came out of
> the tops of some of the
> > batteries.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have lots of BLDC motors that will easily put out
> 8 Amps at 30 volts using a 3 phase diode bridge on
> the motor phases. I do this in the lab sometimes to
> provide a cheap and dirty load for an improvised dyno.
> I have a perfect motor for the job, 5" diameter with
> a Neodymium Iron Cobalt rotor and a finned aluminum
> heatink housing.
> It could easily do several times the current your
> looking for, I just need to know the RPM range to see
> if it is a match.
Less than 1,000 rpm. Slower is better, but I'll only loose a couple
percent gearing up to a higher speed so if slower causes a large (> 5%)
loose in efficiency then I'll go with higher rpm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In setting up my charger, either I trust that the
e-meter is accurate, (shows 186V) or the
Gardner-Bender voltmeter is accurate (shows 179V).
I suppose this has to do with ripples in the DC,
that is, that the voltmeter is spending more time
seeing 179V, and the E-meter is seeing the 186V at the
points it is sampling?
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also have a PM motor that should put out those
amps at a much lower RPM, I've sold those on EBAY for
$30. I probably missed it, but if you have a better
description of the load I could test out both options.
If your charging batteries I'll just connect them to
the output and run the motor with another motor in
dyno setup until I get 8 Amps and record the RPM.
Thanks,
Rod
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have lots of BLDC motors that will easily put
> out
> > 8 Amps at 30 volts using a 3 phase diode bridge on
> > the motor phases. I do this in the lab sometimes
> to
> > provide a cheap and dirty load for an improvised
> dyno.
> > I have a perfect motor for the job, 5" diameter
> with
> > a Neodymium Iron Cobalt rotor and a finned
> aluminum
> > heatink housing.
> > It could easily do several times the current your
> > looking for, I just need to know the RPM range to
> see
> > if it is a match.
>
> Less than 1,000 rpm. Slower is better, but I'll
> only loose a couple
> percent gearing up to a higher speed so if slower
> causes a large (> 5%)
> loose in efficiency then I'll go with higher rpm.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good question. I have three DVMs, I measured the same battery with each:
Radio Shack: 12.78
Meterman: 12.82
OTC: 12.7
I thought maybe the leads have an effect, so I tried each with each other
leads and get the same results. I wonder, what can be used as an accurate
voltage reference?
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: February 28, 2005 6:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
In setting up my charger, either I trust that the e-meter is accurate,
(shows 186V) or the Gardner-Bender voltmeter is accurate (shows 179V).
I suppose this has to do with ripples in the DC, that is, that the
voltmeter is spending more time seeing 179V, and the E-meter is seeing the
186V at the points it is sampling?
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here is a ready
made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_alternators.html#car
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does plug braking pose the same hazards as attempting regen on a series motor,
and if so, are there any recommended ways to keep it to a manageable level and
find a balance between brake wear and brush life? I'd like to be able to say,
tap the brakes to initiate plug braking, and tap the accelerator pedal to turn
it off. Has anyone implemented such?
In a somewhat related question, I've heard it recommended to remove the motor's
internal fan and add a ducted electric fan in order to get max cooling at low
rpm and reduce drag at high rpm. As a 'first step', would there be any
drawbacks to ducting in a 'boost fan' to keep things cool during newbie high
amp/ low rpm situations?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
Vancouver, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Series hybrid.
Primarily charging (small) lead acid batteries possibly NiMH or
LIon/LiPoly in the future.
Occasionally running another motor(s) as well, this motor (or motors) will
draw 15-20 amps. I'm still trying to decide between a single motor with
differential or dual hub motors.
> I also have a PM motor that should put out those
> amps at a much lower RPM, I've sold those on EBAY for
> $30. I probably missed it, but if you have a better
> description of the load I could test out both options.
> If your charging batteries I'll just connect them to
> the output and run the motor with another motor in
> dyno setup until I get 8 Amps and record the RPM.
> Thanks,
> Rod
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > I have lots of BLDC motors that will easily put
>> out
>> > 8 Amps at 30 volts using a 3 phase diode bridge on
>> > the motor phases. I do this in the lab sometimes
>> to
>> > provide a cheap and dirty load for an improvised
>> dyno.
>> > I have a perfect motor for the job, 5" diameter
>> with
>> > a Neodymium Iron Cobalt rotor and a finned
>> aluminum
>> > heatink housing.
>> > It could easily do several times the current your
>> > looking for, I just need to know the RPM range to
>> see
>> > if it is a match.
>>
>> Less than 1,000 rpm. Slower is better, but I'll
>> only loose a couple
>> percent gearing up to a higher speed so if slower
>> causes a large (> 5%)
>> loose in efficiency then I'll go with higher rpm.
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Really, if you are measuring battery voltage, you should have a
calibrated multimeter. The sorts of differences in voltage that matter
are small enough, and battery packs are costly enough, that a meter
with good DC precision and a recent calibration is a reasonable
requirement, IMO.
I insisted on a calibrated FLUKE 189 at work before I started building
the last charger, otherwise I was just chasing my tail. That is
overkill for measuring a battery pack voltage (I needed some of the
other advanced features, too), but I think a reasonable meter can be
had for under $200.
Seth
On Feb 28, 2005, at 9:39 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
Good question. I have three DVMs, I measured the same battery with
each:
Radio Shack: 12.78
Meterman: 12.82
OTC: 12.7
I thought maybe the leads have an effect, so I tried each with each
other
leads and get the same results. I wonder, what can be used as an
accurate
voltage reference?
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: February 28, 2005 6:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
In setting up my charger, either I trust that the e-meter is accurate,
(shows 186V) or the Gardner-Bender voltmeter is accurate (shows 179V).
I suppose this has to do with ripples in the DC, that is, that the
voltmeter is spending more time seeing 179V, and the E-meter is seeing
the
186V at the points it is sampling?
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Really, if you are measuring battery voltage, you should have a calibrated
multimeter.
I use a Fluke 8060A that I got in 1990. Can I trust it?
Tim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get it calibrated, and then you will know. A metrology outfit should be
in the yellow pages.
Seth
On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:32 PM, Tim Medeck wrote:
Really, if you are measuring battery voltage, you should have a
calibrated multimeter.
I use a Fluke 8060A that I got in 1990. Can I trust it?
Tim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about automobile
> alternators. Quite frankly, their efficiency sucks. But then they aren't
> designed to be efficient, just cheap and (relatively)powerful.
>
> Basically what I'm planning on using is either a BLDC or PM synchronous AC
> motor running as a generator.
>
>
The best in the Buisness are PM windturbine power sections.
They use FETs and Diodes. The top of the 3 phase bridge is Diodes, Low
voltage, low condutcion losses. Ultra fast soft recovery. The bottoms are
FETS that can be PWMed. this allows normal rectification when there is
enough windblowing. When there is not sufficient wind for conduction into
the Batteries, but there is voltage , they switch the bottoms Fets as a
boost converter. This allows for harvesting more watts even with very low
windspeeds. Over the life of the turbine this can return something like %80
more energy. Not a bad improvement.
The newest Southwest Wind Power Airex units use this concept. Proving a
Fet can be better than a diode, if switched properly.
I do not have the actual shaft effiiciency numbers. But I use this technique
for the brake/Regen action on the Minibike from Hell. The MBH IS a PM Neo
magnet windturbine alternator. My controls are optimized for power and
+-torque production, not as a peak alternator efficiency.
In the wave form world this lets your windings in your stator to actual move
current when the generated peak voltage is less than your "battery voltage"
This gets more of the device working more of the time. And still NO
brushes!!!
You are also going to have to ask where you want to be efficient? High power
or low power?? Delacate swithcraft at a couple of watts is a bit different
than Full rpm ,full power Steel saturating, and Copper melting in complaint
levels. At the high end there are losses that matter that are not a issue
at lower power levels. Steel losses, are not a issue under a few hundred
RPM, at over 6000 rpm they get to dominate.
Building a ICE power alternator, you need to define where the RPM band is
going to be to get the most from your fuel to the crankshaft. Then design
your alternator controls to best fit the power curve of the Engine.
Or just go out and buy the Honda inverter 3500I generator....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just curious... and trying to drum up some interest.
Lookin' to go myself.
Lookin' for ride there and back from Puget Sound area, will share driving
and expenses.
Anybody?
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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Sounds like you have some old batteries. You are using flooded batteries?
Not old batteries I bought brand new Exide batteries because I couldn't get
Trojan 12 volts here in beautiful Springfield Illinois. It is a pack of 10
12 volt batteries or 120 volts.
As batteries age they take more current at finish voltage. As my pack of
US8VGC's was dying they would run at around 10 AMPs at finish voltage. I
suspect you have one or more bad batteries.
There could be a bad apple in the pack. I guess to find out I would have to
charge each battery separately. However, I think that I need to take a
better look at the charger to see if the float setting is broken. I read in
an old list posting that the K&W Charger has a transistor that can go bad or
come loose. If the transistor is bad I'm not sure if I can just get one at
Radio Shack (if they still that type of stuff) or I'll try to get in touch
with K&W again. In the mean time I'll clean up the spillage, add some go
juice for the boil over and lower the volts dial and the charging time.
Please let the list know the kind of EV you have, the batteries you are
using and where you are located. Contacting a local EV club would be one of
the best things you can do.
There really isn't any close clubs. Springfield Illinois is an island in a
sea of corn. I did join the FVEAA. It was the closest club but it is still
200 plus miles away.
My first Ev is a 1992 GEO tracker I bought on the GSA web site. It has 4000
miles on it and works perfectly. (well expect for this little problem.) It
was converted with a kit supplied by Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (
<aoldb://mail/write/www.EV-America.com> www.EV-America.com ) The conversion
was done with 0 miles on the Tracker and the conversion is top shelf....
every thing was done like a pro. I have spoken via email to Bob Batson of
EVA a few times and he has been more than helpful.
My other EV is a 1995 S-10 truck. I thought the kit was also by EVA.
However, I don't think that is correct because the S-10 truck has a clutch.
I had to pull the tranny out and take the 9" Advanced DC Motor to a shop to
get it reworked and cleaned up. It was arching something fierce. I'll put
that back together.
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Thanks for the explanation Lee. Bummer tho, I have LOTS of these things, was
hoping to have found a use/outlet. Hmm, I wonder if some kind of kenetic art
sculpture project is in order? That big one would be a neat movie prop too.
I got to quit "acquiring" this stuff, taking up too much room but I cannot
bear to just toss them, yet they seem hardly worth selling on E-bay. New
batch of aircraft stuff to get listed, so I guess I will just add them to
the pile.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
David Chapman wrote:
Are Selenium rectifiers any good for this type of thing?
They're ok as rectifiers -- just not very efficient.
Selenium rectifiers were popular until the 1960's because they were
cheap and easy to make. Each "diode" is basically a painted metal plate,
with about a 30v reverse breakdown voltage. The plates were stacked up
in series to get higher voltages.
Selenium rectifiers act more like resistors than diodes. Their forward
resistance is about 1/100th of their reverse resistance, so they work as
rectifiers. But their forward voltage drop gets rather high (1-3 volts
at rated current), and their reverse leakage current (many milliamps)
makes them get hot. They are also quite sensitive to heat; thus their
big "cooling fin" like shape.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Jeff asked:
> I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here
> is a ready made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
> http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
Yes---sad to say that I have.
And I've been waiting months to comment on these---thanks for the
opportunity.
Here goes:
My good friend has a 40ft wooden steamboat we've built over the past few
years. We sequentially tried 3 different automobile alternators being
driven off a 1.5HP 2-cylinder steam engine to charge his 12v battery bank
(12 marine deep cycle batts in parallel). No matter which alternator we
tried, all we could ever get was about 20amps into the nom. 12.5v, i.e. only
around 250watts max. Meanwhile, his steamboat's industrial boiler uses
about 40amps average, i.e. 480watts or so. Not good enough.
I suggested he look at alternatives such as the PM generators offered at
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html (Thermodyne Systems,
Lancaster, Ca.) and elsewhere.
Next thing I know (despite my cautioning him regarding inadequate motor
curves online) my friend ordered the SC12 model from Thermodyne Systems at
$279 + $30 (for a pulley!!!) + $14.50 S/H.
Among the claims on the Thermodyne Super Core (SC) page: "Great for heavy
amp loads! The higher the amp load the harder they work".
Uh, maybe they mean THE MORE THEY HEAT UP...?
Other claims include:
"LOTS OF LOW END POWER GENERATION ABILITY!!!!"
"Capable of generating well over 12,000 Watts at speeds over 18,000
RPM."
We installed the SC12, ran it up to the same speed as the ordinary
alternators had spun (roughly 1800RPM) and the best we could get out of the
PM alternator was 16amps----yes, just 16amps, or about 200watts max. Ok,
that's disappointing, but EVEN at only 16amps, the SC12 PMA got VERY VERY
VERY HOT----FAR HOTTER than any of the ordinary alternators had gotten, and
was generating EVEN LESS power!
So much for living up to their webpage claim of "GREAT for heavy amp
loads"---since when is 20amps or 200watts from an alternator a heavy load?
Long story short: Thermodyne Systems (makers of these PM generators) will
not guarantee its product once it's used. We spun that PM generator for
maybe 10-minutes before realizing it would be a hopeless cause. The owner
of Thermodyne Systems would not offer my friend his money back to return the
unit because "it had been used". This, despite our pointing out that his
webpage was misleading AT BEST, or more likely a BLATANT LIE as to its
performance claims. So much for "the customer is always right".
At this point, now several months later, the Thermodyne (Hydrogen
Appliances) webpage still proudly displays the same fictitious claims. If
it were my money, I'd sue. If I were stinking rich, I'd sue anyway----it's
full of false advertizing.
To be fair, these PMA generators will efficiently generate power if you
don't draw much current from them. As an example, I computed that the SC12
reaches its 50% peak power loss point at a current of only about
20amps---i.e. when charging a 12v battery bank, of the 480watts of electric
power generated, half of it is lost to internal stator heat---and we
certainly were seeing over 200watts of waste heat in our case. NOWHERE in
their online literature do they indicate to expect these kinds of losses.
And the little electrical info they do provide in their curves is almost
intentionally misleading.
For higher power output with high efficiency from these PMAs, you absolutely
need BOTH high speeds AND high voltage. Their internal resistance is just
too high (on the order of 0.6ohms) to get efficiency at higher powers
without high voltage.
Compare this to an ETEK (Ri ~.025ohm) as a PM generator, which at 20amps
only loses 0.5v to internal resistive losses (i.e. 10watts), the PMA
generators, at 12v loss are some 24-times MORE LOSSY(240watts).
That, coupled with the rudest and least technically knowledgeable response
I've ever received from anyone running a high tech manufacturing business, I
strongly recommend steering away this manufacturer/vendor. They may make
quality products, and they may work well at low currents (under 20amps) at
high voltages and speed, but otherwise, buy an ETEK and use it as a PM gen.
-Brutally honest
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Incidentally, before you buy anything from Thermodyne Systems, read this
Sept. 14th, 2001 article by Paul Gipe, former board member of the American
Wind Energy Association ("Stirring Up a Hornet's Nest: New Turbine Generates
Controversy"): http://www.wind-works.org/articles/sm_hornet.html regarding
Thermodyne's claims.
a snippet:
>At 5 mph, the web site claims the Hornet will produce 640% of the power
>available in the wind; at 12 mph, 117%; at 22 mph, 49%; at 28 mph, 35%. The
>Hornet's performance at 22 mph and 28 mph would make it one of the most
>efficient small wind turbines ever built--even exceeding the aggressive
>performance advertised for the Air 403 of 31%. The Hornet's performance at
>5 mph and 12 mph is clearly impossible according to our understanding of
>physical laws governing the power available in the wind.
>
>Such wild claims for the Hornet could come back to sting Thermodyne in
>litigious California.
Again, I wouldn't trust any of the claims made by Thermodyne and wouldn't
recommend them to anyone. Their PMA generators will only perform
efficiently for high output voltage relative to load current. You're better
off buying a low internal resistance alternator---rotor losses are likely
nil compared to that lost in the stator windings anyway.
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On 28 Feb 2005 at 12:56, ohnojoe wrote:
> However, the current gage did not drop to below 10 even after an
> 18 hour charge. (I used a volt meter and some jumper cables between the most
> neg and most pos terminals 131.6 volts).
Did you measure that voltage while the charger was operating, or after you
had shut it off? If the former, there is something very wrong.
Your 120v nominal battery should reach about 148 to 150 volts with current
declining to about 2% of the amp hour capacity, ^with the charger
operating^.
(BTW, be careful with those jumper cables. You are dealing with a lot of
power and energy.)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?
-- W B Yeats
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Although you may think we are getting OT it is still of interest for EV
applications.
I have a 5kW 3ph induction generator wired up in delta (it was a 415V
m/c originally) to charge my 280V DC home power system which has a 3kW
PV array. The power source is a 4 cylinder Morris side valve motor ex
1950s Morris Major car running at 1000-1500 RPM and burning natural gas.
It is auto excited via 100uF per phase. I can advise if this system
looses its battery load high voltages are produced to the limit of
saturating the core. I haven't measured the voltage under these
conditions but a device rated at 500V blew once. A control strategy is
to remove the capacitors for high volts.
Because of the unstable load/voltage nature it is not suitable for
variable loads (without a complex cap switching system) but ideal for
battery charging because the current actually increases as your battery
volts rise. You turn off the engine or reduce revs when charging is
complete. If you have access to 3 ph AC you can start your engine with
the AC. The AC could come from a 1 ph source via a variable speed drive.
VSD are affordable these days.
Auto excited induction machines occasionally fail to excite if a
critical amount of residual magnetism is not present. This can be
overcome by flashing the windings with low voltage DC before starting.
My future EV hybrid will probably use an induction generator run at
speeds to match the load. Using a one or more single cylinder Diesels a
projected 100mpg should result.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, 1 March 2005 12:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
djsharpe wrote:
> You could consider an induction motor run as a generator for higher
> voltage systems instead of a synch alternator. All you need is a
> bank of capacitors and to auto excite the machine and 6 diodes to
> rectify the output. These machines are cheap but have slightly less
> efficiency than a well designed alternator.
Yes, this is a cheap and easy way to do it. Induction motors for 120vac
and up are easy to come by. More efficient than an automotive-type
alternator, but not as good as a high-efficiency one.
> Lower voltages will need a matching auto transformer.
That's one way to do it. You can also rewire the pole pairs in parallel
instead of series to alter the basic voltage. Or, since the voltage is
proportional to rpm, run it at a different speed to get the desired
voltage.
> must always have a load. Lose your load and very high voltages
> are produced.
The capacitors provide the necessary load. Induction generators only
work when they see a capacitive load. With the right capacitors it will
work fine with no load. The basic voltage is controlled by rpm, just
like a PM generator.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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