EV Digest 4135
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Direct drive - how to do it right
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Low cost 45 mph electric vehicle. VW motor/adapter kit. Here is one
of many bugs.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) NEDRA Wicked Watts April 9 . . . An Event Update
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Direct drive - how to do it right (long)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 3 phase PM
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: GTech Performance meter on an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: 3 phase PM
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Selenium Rectifiers was 3ph alt discussion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: If series regen's not a good idea, what about plug braking?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Accuracy of voltmeters, revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Selenium Rectifiers was 3ph alt discussion
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 3 phase PM
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 3 phase PM
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Direct drive - how to do it right (long)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Hygrometers, eq'ing, water cons., and 8 mo. floodies, revisited
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I notice all the talk on transmissions and drive systems, so I talk to my
Master Mechanic, who goes why back. He said to use a Torque Converter, instead
of a clutch and a transmission with the forward gears.
A Torque Converters has a multiplier of 1.5 or 1.8. It would be like a gear
ratio of 1.8:1 in a transmission. At low rpm, it starts out at 1.8:1 ratio and
works to as close to 1:1.
He said, that they build up transmissions with two of these in series, so you
would have a variable ratio from 3.6:1 to 1:1. My manual transmission gear
ratio starts out at 3.5:1 in first, 2.5:1 in second to 1:1 final.
You will need a Torque Converter with a Lock Up system, like they used in drag
racing, so as to have no slippage when you start out.
They also install Torque Converters in place of a clutch in standard
transmissions with all the gears, that you can control the slippage with a lock
up system, so you can shift it into reverse.
To do this type of Torque Drive, it will take some machining or could be done
by Transmission shops who specialized in this type of setup.
If you used a Standard Transmission with out a clutch, then all gears including
the reversed gear needs to have Synchronizers between each gears. This acts
like small clutches, so there is a slight slippage between the gears. Normally
the REVERSED GEAR does not have the Synchronizers in them.
In some Manual Transmissions, a Synchronizer can be added to the reversed gear
with no problem by some transmission shops.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Direct drive - how to do it right
> I've always liked the way NEON did his VW buggy. It looks like he just
> flipped the rearend and mated the motor directly.
>
>
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/125.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/125.html>
>
Umm, Damon...that's a VW. Rear engine directly connected to the transaxle
is the standard configuration for the old aircooled VWs.
He didn't "flip" the transaxle that I can see, looks like it's in it's
normal configuration.
It's called a "transaxle" because it's a combination multispeed
transmission and rear differential all in one unit that is "designed" to
have the engine mount directly to the back and the axles mount on the
sides.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.craigslist.org/ Looks like his URL or email didn't come through.
Use this URL to search Craigs list. You guys back east could get some real
bargains if you could figure out how to ship them home. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "SFEVA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:51 PM
Subject: Low cost 45 mph electric vehicle. VW motor/adapter kit. Here is one
of many bugs.
Here is just one possible glider to make your low speed VW conversion.
Just
needs a body. Got Kit? This pan for 300 dollars the kit and batteries
would be under 2500 dollars. This has got to be the best bargain in a 5
passenger EV for city and limited range use. This glider ready for a kit
body is in Santa Rosa. I got on Craigs list and found about 50 listings
in
the San Francisco Bay area alone for VW bugs old style. The Adapter costs
500 dollars. If you just got this you could use your own motor and
controller. For sure it would be easy to make a two motor adapter using
the
one motor version as a template.. Motors tucked away and plenty of room
for
batteries. John Wayland watch out. The little bug might challenge your
mighty Datsuns. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: J Prospect
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: VW BUG Chassis - complete or parts (santa rosa)
The pan with, trans & axles, full front end, brakes, wheels, tires,
shocks,
and front seats. Trans works fine. Im asking 300 or best offer. ALL OFFERS
CONSIDERED.
Thanks, J
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just the pan with tranny and full running gear minus the motor? SEats?
Interior? Rugs? How much again? LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: J Prospect
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: VW BUG Chassis - complete or parts (santa rosa)
No, it is not complete. It is just the bottom half of the car. The pan
only, No body. Still interested?
Neat concept tho, good luck!
Thanks, J
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Your Bug looks good for electric conversion.
http://www.e-volks.com/about.html
I have a friend that might be interested. I am assuming it is complete
except for the motor. Perfect for our project. How much bottom line.
Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
NEDRA Wicked Watts Scheduled for April 9, 2005 at Las Vegas Motor Speedway
("The Strip")
The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA), a National Hot Rod
Association (NHRA) affiliate, announced that Wicked Watts 2005 is now scheduled
for the weekend of April 9th. NHRA/NEDRA-sanctioned Electric Vehicle
record-qualifying racing will be held on Saturday, April 9, 2005 at "The Strip"
on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway from 8 AM to noon. The Las Vegas Motor
Speedway is home to many sanctioned NHRA and NASCAR events during the year.
For more information on "The Strip" track location, admission, and logistics,
visit: www.lvms.com
Friday night, April 8, 2005 at 6 PM is an open, unofficial "Test and Tune"
where NEDRA racers can race and tune their Electric Dragsters against
gasoline-powered cars on an NHRA-sanctioned drag strip.
This scheduled date has been approved by both NEDRA's officers and the
officials at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway. Any new information regarding this
date and evolving race plans will be posted in this newsletter and on the Las
Vegas Electric Vehicle Association web site at: www.lveva.org
Also, please visit the NEDRA web site at: www.nedra.com
Jr. Dragster competition will highlight the early morning events and the open
"Test and Tune" will follow for all EV dragsters that can pass the NHRA/NEDRA
technical inspection. For more information on the technical modifications
required to race an EV on an NHRA-sanctioned drag strip, see the NHRA rule book
at the NEDRA web site: www.nedra.com
Admission to "The Strip" Drag Strip will be open to all for the "Test and Tune"
both Friday night and Saturday morning. Admission price for Saturday morning
is $20 for spectators and $35 for racers with their vehicles. The admission
fee is paid at the ticket booth at the entrance to the "The Strip" drag race
track "pit" staging area. The LVEVA will provide logistical support. EAA and
local LVEVA members are encouraged to attend as well as volunteer to support
the efforts of the NEDRA racers. Volunteers are needed to log in racers' run
times for official NEDRA record-keeping, provide support information as to
logistical and technical checkout procedures for "The Strip", help racers stay
in contact with local NEDRA and LVEVA officials during the EVent, as well as
provide general information about the local Las Vegas area.
Last year during Wicked Watts, the two best Electric Jr. Drag Racers in the
country raced against gasoline-powered Jr. Dragsters in a "bracket-racing"
exhibition on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway for the first time.
Also scheduled to appear is a student team from Brigham Young University's
School of Technology. The students and their faculty advisors are hoping to
set new records with their converted GM EV-1 Ultracapacitor-powered Electric
Dragster. Led by their faculty advisors, Dr. Tom Erekson and Dr. Perry Carter,
the team's Wicked Watts debut appearance in 2003 was impressive, averaging 70
mph per run, setting records and creating a new NEDRA Racing Class for
UltraCapacitor-powered Electric Vehicles. For more information on Maxwell
Technologies' UltraCapacitors, visit Maxwell's web site at: www.maxwell.com
More information on the BYU School of Technology's EV-1 can be found at their
web site: http://research.et.byu.edu/e-blue/cars/ev1/history.htm
NEDRA Vice-President Brian Hall with his record-setting "Revolt" Electric
Motorcycle that broke the 100 mph barrier last year at Infineon Raceway in
California is also planning on participating in Wicked Watts 2005.
Other participating racers will be announced in the April LVEVA Newsletter at
www.lveva.org This feature will be updated online as the date approaches.
As in years past, pre-race and after-race celebrations will keep the NEDRA
energy going and a recap of the days' records and highlights will be held
Saturday afternoon at a nearby gathering place such as the Speedway Casino or
"The Cannery" casino
Las Vegas is also celebrating the Centennial of its birth in 1905 and kicked
off a year-long party on New Year's Eve. Spend the weekend enjoying the
sights, sounds, food, and sensations of "The Entertainment Capitol of the
World". For more information about ongoing events, attractions and
accommodations during the weeked of April 8th to April 10th, please visit these
following web sites:
www.vegas.com
www.lasvegas.com
www.lasvegassun.com
www.reviewjournal.com
www.ci.las-vegas.nv.us
www.lvchamber.com
www.lasvegas24hours.com
See you April 8 and 9!!
Stan Hanel
Las Vegas EVA
http://www.lveva.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, torque converters by their nature "slip". That is exactly why they
are used in drag racing, to allow the engine to launch the car while in its
powerband and to take advantage of the torque multiplication aspect. The
lockup ones lockup at higher or cruising speeds rather than at the low end.
FWIW, I have seen numerous instances (mostly in forklifts and reach trucks)
where they use a torque converter with a built in flywheel and a relatively
normal clutch and pressure plate with a manual transmission. This lets the
user drive up to a pallet, creep into it with the torque converter and also
to creep the load into position with less wear than with a standard clutch.
I believe these are called a "Power Shuttle". I still have a rebuilt one of
these laying around somewhere from when I was rebuiliding my forklift and
someone stole the entire forklift before I got the power shuttle back from
the rebuilders. Chapped my a** pretty good too, still had to pay for the
rebuild ($400 IIRC) even tho I no longer needed it, LOL. Oh well.
Also, from my experiance, manual transmission syncronizers are generally a
tapered brass cone with slots for the syncro dogs and small pointed teeth
that fit between each gear and help prevent gear clashing by bringing the
shifted gear up to speed before the outer ring gear locks it to the
mainshaft. The brass of the syncro wears before the two steel gears and is a
wear part. Often in racing transmissions we would cut off every other syncro
tooth to make the transmission shift faster (crash box). They don't connect
to the shaft or function as a clutch, can't cause slippage. I have rebuilt
and modified a lot of American manual transmissions and a few foreign units
and don't think that adding a syncronizer to the reverse setup would be
"easy". Doable, with considerable trouble, machine work and cost, yes. Might
be helpful to look at a diagram of manual transmissions such as a Borg
Warner, Muncie or Ford Toploader to see just how it works, I know I am
probably not explaining it correctly. I don't really see how a torque
converter would be helpful to an electric drive for shifting into reverse as
you would not normally be turning the motor anyway. Just having a spring
loaded shifter with a microswitch to briefly interrupt the torque of the
motor would help shifting in all gears, similar to the Volkswagen Autostick
setup.
I have seen an EV pickup where the fellow used a torque converter on a big
GE motor, he told me that it seemed to be effective as a "transmission" but
was inefficient as it was not a lockup type converter.
I tend to think that if one did use a lockup converter with an electric
motor it might be a good idea, at least worth a try. However the lockup
mechanism that I have seen is pressure operated so you would need something
like a sleeve and pump (the front end of an automatic trans essentially) to
control the converter. Would be slick if someone with the resources could
build a motor with a long splined shaft to engage the stator in the
converter and a pump and sleeve as the front bell of the motor. Might have
to have the converter specially constructed to drive "backwards" from
normal. Or design a coupler to mount a regular shafted motor to the outer
case (engine side in an ICE app) something like a big spider with a
taperlock in the middle and with the pump and sleeve on the output side with
an output shaft (normally the input shaft of the trans) driven off the
stator passing thru the pump/sleeve and terminating in a pinion flange to
connect the driveshaft via u-joint. Sorry to be clear as mud but i hope you
can glean my idea. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Direct drive - how to do it right
I notice all the talk on transmissions and drive systems, so I talk to my
Master Mechanic, who goes why back. He said to use a Torque Converter,
instead of a clutch and a transmission with the forward gears.
A Torque Converters has a multiplier of 1.5 or 1.8. It would be like a gear
ratio of 1.8:1 in a transmission. At low rpm, it starts out at 1.8:1 ratio
and works to as close to 1:1.
He said, that they build up transmissions with two of these in series, so
you would have a variable ratio from 3.6:1 to 1:1. My manual transmission
gear ratio starts out at 3.5:1 in first, 2.5:1 in second to 1:1 final.
You will need a Torque Converter with a Lock Up system, like they used in
drag racing, so as to have no slippage when you start out.
They also install Torque Converters in place of a clutch in standard
transmissions with all the gears, that you can control the slippage with a
lock up system, so you can shift it into reverse.
To do this type of Torque Drive, it will take some machining or could be
done by Transmission shops who specialized in this type of setup.
If you used a Standard Transmission with out a clutch, then all gears
including the reversed gear needs to have Synchronizers between each gears.
This acts like small clutches, so there is a slight slippage between the
gears. Normally the REVERSED GEAR does not have the Synchronizers in them.
In some Manual Transmissions, a Synchronizer can be added to the reversed
gear with no problem by some transmission shops.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Direct drive - how to do it right
> I've always liked the way NEON did his VW buggy. It looks like he just
> flipped the rearend and mated the motor directly.
>
>
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/125.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/125.html>
>
Umm, Damon...that's a VW. Rear engine directly connected to the transaxle
is the standard configuration for the old aircooled VWs.
He didn't "flip" the transaxle that I can see, looks like it's in it's
normal configuration.
It's called a "transaxle" because it's a combination multispeed
transmission and rear differential all in one unit that is "designed" to
have the engine mount directly to the back and the axles mount on the
sides.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:38:04 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Chapman wrote:
> > Are Selenium rectifiers any good for this type of thing?
>
> Selenium rectifiers act more like resistors than diodes. Their forward
> resistance is about 1/100th of their reverse resistance, so they work as
> rectifiers. But their forward voltage drop gets rather high (1-3 volts
> at rated current), and their reverse leakage current (many milliamps)
> makes them get hot. They are also quite sensitive to heat; thus their
> big "cooling fin" like shape.
.. and they really *stink* if overloaded!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you would like to go in the same direction as the wind generator guys, I
have a spec sheet for a motor I quoted on for a couple of companies in that
industry. Email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I can forward the PDF file
to you. It is just a PM motor, designed for low rpm charging. You would
still need to make your own regulation and rectifier. But since two
companies from two different ends of the country asked for basically the
same thing, it could be what you want.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Jeff asked:
>> I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here
>> is a ready made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
>> http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
>
> Yes---sad to say that I have.
-snip-
> That, coupled with the rudest and least technically knowledgeable response
> I've ever received from anyone running a high tech manufacturing business,
Yeah, reading the statements on the website like:
" NOTICE FOR ANY OF YOU A.E. NOVICES OUT THERE:
If these voltages seem high just remember that standard automotive
alternators are usually putting out 40 to 50 volts into the 12 volt
battery in your car. "
Makes it pretty clear the guy doesn't quite understand what he's talking
about.
That and the fact that he uses a short circuit to measure the output
current??!??!!
Why not hook the thing up to a battery bank and post current vs RPM @ X
voltage?
That would be usefull info, the stuff on his website is just about useless
for the average person, especially since he doesn't post internal
resistance figures.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Odd, it says:
(You will never be able to see voltages this high because the battery pulls
all power inputs DOWN to its own voltage level AND that's why you NEVER pull
off the battery cables when an engine is running because your fuses, dash
board lights and regulator blow up !!!!!!! (Especially if you rev the
engine! ,,,, NO battery---- NO buffer!!)
I have unhooked my batt from the car, even revved up, and nothing happens,
when I was a kid I used to take it out, just to save weight on the strip,
this just doesn't soud right.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Peter VanDerWal
Enviado el: martes, 01 de marzo de 2005 12:15
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: 3 phase PM
> Jeff asked:
>> I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here
>> is a ready made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
>> http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
>
> Yes---sad to say that I have.
-snip-
> That, coupled with the rudest and least technically knowledgeable response
> I've ever received from anyone running a high tech manufacturing business,
Yeah, reading the statements on the website like:
" NOTICE FOR ANY OF YOU A.E. NOVICES OUT THERE:
If these voltages seem high just remember that standard automotive
alternators are usually putting out 40 to 50 volts into the 12 volt
battery in your car. "
Makes it pretty clear the guy doesn't quite understand what he's talking
about.
That and the fact that he uses a short circuit to measure the output
current??!??!!
Why not hook the thing up to a battery bank and post current vs RPM @ X
voltage?
That would be usefull info, the stuff on his website is just about useless
for the average person, especially since he doesn't post internal
resistance figures.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My future EV hybrid will probably use an induction generator run at
> speeds to match the load. Using a one or more single cylinder Diesels a
> projected 100mpg should result.
I think your projections are more than a little optimistic.
FWIW they used to have a college level hybrid challenge where the colleges
were given a 4 door sedan and were supposed to produce a vehicle that got
twice the normal mpg (target was around 60 mph IIRC).
About 1/2 the teams couldn't even match the original mileage and as I
recall nobody managed to meet the goal of 60 mph.
And these were college level eggheads with huge amounts of sponsorship money.
At continuous driving speeds, series hybrids will NEVER exceed the mileage
you could get by directly connecting the ICE to the wheels (first law of
thermodynamics), in fact the second law of thermodynamics states that you
won't even match it.
In stop and go traffic you might be able improve mileage due to operating
the ICE near it's optimum efficiency power point, but 100 mpg? Doubtful,
even with regen. Possible perhaps, but doubtful.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:30:16 -0700 (MST), Peter VanDerWal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My future EV hybrid will probably use an induction generator run at
> > speeds to match the load. Using a one or more single cylinder Diesels a
> > projected 100mpg should result.
>
> I think your projections are more than a little optimistic.
> At continuous driving speeds, series hybrids will NEVER exceed the mileage
> you could get by directly connecting the ICE to the wheels (first law of
> thermodynamics), in fact the second law of thermodynamics states that you
> won't even match it.
> In stop and go traffic you might be able improve mileage due to operating
> the ICE near it's optimum efficiency power point, but 100 mpg? Doubtful,
> even with regen. Possible perhaps, but doubtful.
It depends on the EV. If he's considering using a single cylinder
diesel to propel the car, this indicates that it doesn't need much
power - i.e. a light-weight, aerodynamically efficient design.
This is the approach I am using, although the engine that I (might)
adopt would also be coupled in parallel with the electric motor to
avoid the energy conversion losses.
On the other hand, I agree that simply sticking a generator into a
typical conversion based on a normal car is unlikely to give as good
MPG as the original car did, although it's only my opinion and I'd be
happy to be proved wrong :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The voltage regulator will usually keep this from blowing up things, at
least short term. A PM alternator doesn't have this sort of control
available to it, but the wound rotor alternator does.
If Myles were to speed up that alternator and feed the unrectified
output through an appropriate stepdown transformer (maybe a
lightweight 3 phase 400Hz surplus military job would do) to step the
voltage down, he should get a lot more power out of that PM alternator.
Seth
On Mar 1, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Ivo Jara wrote:
Odd, it says:
(You will never be able to see voltages this high because the battery
pulls
all power inputs DOWN to its own voltage level AND that's why you
NEVER pull
off the battery cables when an engine is running because your fuses,
dash
board lights and regulator blow up !!!!!!! (Especially if you rev the
engine! ,,,, NO battery---- NO buffer!!)
I have unhooked my batt from the car, even revved up, and nothing
happens,
when I was a kid I used to take it out, just to save weight on the
strip,
this just doesn't soud right.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre
de Peter VanDerWal
Enviado el: martes, 01 de marzo de 2005 12:15
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: 3 phase PM
Jeff asked:
I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here
is a ready made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
Yes---sad to say that I have.
-snip-
That, coupled with the rudest and least technically knowledgeable
response
I've ever received from anyone running a high tech manufacturing
business,
Yeah, reading the statements on the website like:
" NOTICE FOR ANY OF YOU A.E. NOVICES OUT THERE:
If these voltages seem high just remember that standard automotive
alternators are usually putting out 40 to 50 volts into the 12 volt
battery in your car. "
Makes it pretty clear the guy doesn't quite understand what he's
talking
about.
That and the fact that he uses a short circuit to measure the output
current??!??!!
Why not hook the thing up to a battery bank and post current vs RPM @ X
voltage?
That would be usefull info, the stuff on his website is just about
useless
for the average person, especially since he doesn't post internal
resistance figures.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.4 - Release Date: 01/03/2005
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.4 - Release Date: 01/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have one setting on the back seat of my van.
As soon as the snow stops I plan on doing soon tests and can then compare to
my dyno runs. What is wrong with HP at the wheel ?? Isn't that where you
want it ??
Robert Salem
Columbus, OH
81 vw pickup, 240 volts, Z2K, 11 Kostov
> The GTech Pro is a thing of beauty. Yes, it does determine the engine RPM
> from the ignition noise in the 12V system. It works well at comparative
> measurements with the same vehicle over time. Not a lot of use comparing HP
> measurements with other cars, unless they use a GTech as well, as the unit
> reports on HP at the wheel.
>
> The PC software produces some real nice HP and Torque graphs, also tells you
> when to shift.
>
> It can store up to a hour of data.
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: February 28, 2005 10:57 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: GTech Performance meter on an EV
>
> http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html
>
> Do any of you NEDRA types have experience with the GTech Pro meter? It
> seems to be a performance gauge that uses RF noise from an ignition system,
> plus accelerometers to compute acceleration, torque, 0-60 times, shift
> points, 1/4 mile times, etc.. You program the system with vehicle weight,
> desired shift points, etc., but it has no sensors hardwired to the car. It
> might be a fairly simple task to create the right noise to use this setup in
> an EV. I'd be amazed if it could track accel/decel over a trip of any
> length and still produce accurate speed measurements, but it might be useful
> to answer those nagging performance questions we all get.
> Just a stray idea,
> Jay Donnaway
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:09:41 -0300, Ivo Jara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Odd, it says:
>
> (You will never be able to see voltages this high because the battery pulls
> all power inputs DOWN to its own voltage level AND that's why you NEVER pull
> off the battery cables when an engine is running because your fuses, dash
> board lights and regulator blow up !!!!!!! (Especially if you rev the
> engine! ,,,, NO battery---- NO buffer!!)
>
> I have unhooked my batt from the car, even revved up, and nothing happens,
> when I was a kid I used to take it out, just to save weight on the strip,
> this just doesn't soud right.
Well, there is a good reason not to disconnect the battery when the
engine is running - it's called load dump. I had the battery come
loose in my ICE car a long time ago, it caused an intermittant
connection between the positive clamp and the bunch of wires hanging
off it, and I noticed because the headlights and dash lights started
giving super bright flashes as I cornered and the connection came and
went. Nothing blew up but that was in a pre-"computerised everything"
diesel car.
Anyway, off-topic again!
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--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> Thanks for the explanation Lee. Bummer tho, I have LOTS of these
> things, was hoping to have found a use/outlet.
The "perfect" is the enemy of the "good". Just because silicon is better
doesn't mean your selenium rectifiers are useless. If nothing else, you
already have them, so they are cheap! :-)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
djsharpe wrote:
> I have a 5kW 3ph induction generator wired up in delta... The power
> source is a 4 cylinder Morris side valve motor ex 1950s Morris Major
> car running at 1000-1500 RPM and burning natural gas.
Now *that's* a unique engine!
> It is auto excited via 100uF per phase. I can advise if this system
> loses its battery load high voltages are produced to the limit of
> saturating the core. I haven't measured the voltage under these
> conditions but a device rated at 500V blew once.
This would indicate that you have too much capacitance and/or too little
load. The no-load voltage should rise 20% or so at most. With no load,
the motors's inductance and the load capacitors can form a resonant
circuit that could certainly build up enough voltage to saturate the
core and make the motor overheat.
> Because of the unstable load/voltage nature it is not suitable for
> variable loads
Correct. Usually, you regulate the speed of the engine driving it to get
the desired voltage/current output. Otherwise, if you lose the
electrical load, the ICE speeds up, the generator's voltage skyrockets,
and something breaks!
> Auto excited induction machines occasionally fail to excite if a
> critical amount of residual magnetism is not present. This can be
> overcome by flashing the windings with low voltage DC before starting.
Yes, I've found the same thing. Some motors never seem to need a pulse
of DC to start generating; others seem to need it regularly. I haven't
played enough to figure out how to predict it.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Does plug braking pose the same hazards as attempting regen on a
> series motor, and if so, are there any recommended ways to keep it
> to a manageable level and find a balance between brake wear and
> brush life?
Regen braking, plug braking, and dynamic braking are all pretty much the
same thing as far as the motor is concerned. All that changes is where
the braking energy goes (into the batteries, into the controller/motor,
or into resistors respectively).
Plug braking is usually the weakest, just because the motor and
controller really aren't much good at dissipating braking energy. You'd
burn them up if you tried to get much braking this way.
> I'd like to be able to say, tap the brakes to initiate plug
> braking, and tap the accelerator pedal to turn it off. Has
> anyone implemented such?
That's an interesting idea, and sounds workable. You'd have to get used
to it, though. I think it would feel like the brakes are sticking.
> In a somewhat related question, I've heard it recommended to remove
> the motor's internal fan and add a ducted electric fan in order to
> get max cooling at low rpm and reduce drag at high rpm. As a
>'first step', would there be any drawbacks to ducting in a 'boost
> fan' to keep things cool during newbie high amp/ low rpm situations?
No; you could leave the internal fan *and* have an external blower. The
only drawback to too much cooling is that you're wasting a littlel
power.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Really, if you are measuring battery voltage, you should have
>> a calibrated multimeter.
Tim Medeck wrote:
> I use a Fluke 8060A that I got in 1990. Can I trust it?
Fluke makes excellent equipment. Its calibration is probably still
pretty good. Fluke, Tektronix, Hewlett-Packard, General Radio, and the
other "old line" test equipment makers had genuine experts on analog
design that knew all the details to get it RIGHT. This knowledge is what
separates the good stuff from the junk.
Sadly, the newer the equipment, the worse it seems to get. The old
"masters" are being laid off or retiring, and the new CEOs seem bent to
producing cheaper junk to make a fast buck.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
>
> Good question. I have three DVMs, I measured the same battery with each:
>
> Radio Shack: 12.78
> Meterman: 12.82
> OTC: 12.7
>
> I thought maybe the leads have an effect, so I tried each with each other
> leads and get the same results. I wonder, what can be used as an accurate
> voltage reference?
We went around on this just recently -- check the archives. If you can
find one, a mercury cell is accurate to 4 significant digits. Failing
that, compare against a high-quality meter that has been recently
calibrated. Failing that, buy a precision voltage reference IC and build
your own 'standard voltage' source.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The best in the Buisness are PM windturbine power sections.
> They use FETs and Diodes. The top of the 3 phase bridge is Diodes,
> Low voltage, low conduction losses. Ultra fast soft recovery.
Who cares if they are fast or soft recovery? We're only dealing with low
audio frequencies. I would think they would choose the diodes based on
forward voltage drop (probably schottkys).
> The bottoms are FETS that can be PWMed. This allows normal
> rectification when there is enough windblowing.
Presumably by using the MOSFET's body diode? This is a high-drop diode.
> When there is not sufficient wind for conduction into the Batteries,
> but there is voltage, they switch the bottoms Fets as a boost
> converter.
Clever.
> Fet can be better than a diode, if switched properly.
True, but if they are using ~1v drop body diode and non-schottkys, there
goes efficiency.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The "perfect" is the enemy of the "good". Just because
> silicon is better doesn't mean your selenium rectifiers are useless.
Maybe you can use them as passive heaters...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The voltage regulator will usually keep this from blowing up things, at
> least short term. A PM alternator doesn't have this sort of control
> available to it, but the wound rotor alternator does.
>
> If Myles were to speed up that alternator and feed the unrectified
> output through an appropriate stepdown transformer (maybe a
> lightweight 3 phase 400Hz surplus military job would do) to step the
> voltage down, he should get a lot more power out of that PM alternator.
>
> Seth
I believe those alternators have built in rectifiers. He could get more
power out simply by increasing the RPMs, however that won't fix the heat
problem. I suspect he didn't buy the 'optional' cooling fan. Pretty much
required on these alternators and an additional reduction in efficiency.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Myles Twete wrote:
> And I've been waiting months to comment on these---thanks for the
> opportunity.
>
> No matter which alternator we
> tried, all we could ever get was about 20amps into the nom. 12.5v, i.e. only
> around 250watts max.
Would one of these work any better?
http://www.performancedistributors.com/alternator.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
The Subaru Justy CVT used an electromagnetic clutch. One drum spun
inside another, there was some fluid between them, and passing enough
current would lock the drums together. I did see some industrial
examples of clutches like this, but decided against it since it took
some power to keep them locked up. The good old fashioned OEM clutch
wastes no power :) .
--- David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I tend to think that if one did use a lockup converter with an
> electric
> motor it might be a good idea, at least worth a try. However the
> lockup
> mechanism that I have seen is pressure operated so you would need
> something
> like a sleeve and pump (the front end of an automatic trans
> essentially) to
> control the converter.
> ...
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
Looking back at my records, I charged the US8VGC at 186V and held that
voltage for about an hour. Over this time the current would drop to
about 2 Amps at the end of the hour. When the batteries started to die,
I would notice the ending current rise to 4A, 6A, 7A and then 10A+.
That's when I started removing stinkers and dropping pack voltage.
With the Trojan's I charge to 174-176V and holding for about 2 hours.
At the end of that 2 hours, the current still drops to about 1.3A at
12,000 miles. I equalize at 186V for 2 hours about once every 2 months
for good measure (I see a small change in the electrolyte after about 2
months).
I'll put out a full report in a couple weeks (when I get to 14K on the
T875's) detailing the life and charging of US8VGC's, US8VGC-HC's, and
T875's in my application.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 6:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Hygrometers, eq'ing, water cons., and 8 mo. floodies,
revisited
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I pretty much pull 2-4 kWh out of the batteries
> > each day and charge the 144V pack each night to
> 186V,
> > and hold it there for 15 mins.
> > Every 2-3 weeks, I take it to 186V and hold it
> > there for 1-2 hours.
>
> You are almost certainly not charging enough.
> 186V/72 cells is
> 2.583V/cell, which is US Battery's recommendation...
> at a temperature of
> about 26.7C/80F. You note that it has been chilly
> lately, which makes
> me suspect you should be charging to a higher
> voltage
> (+0.005V/cell/degree C, or +0.36V/degree C for the
> 144V string).
>
> Also, once you reach the target voltage, you need to
> hold that until the
> current tapers to a few percent of the rated Ah
> capacity (e.g. about
> 3A), not 15min or 1-2hr.
Hmmm... I had set my charger to begin tapering at 165
volts or so, and was tapering down the current _as_ it
got to the 186V
By the time the charger
> shuts off you want to
> have returned about 110% of the Ah that were
> removed. If you set the
> timer for a longish period (e.g. 4-5hr) and monitor
> the current, you can
> determine how long it must be set to in order that
> the current tapers to
> 3A.
Yep, that part's in the charger setup guide...
>
> You can also determine how much longer you need to
> let the charger run
> in order that 110% of the Ah removed are returned
> (watch your E-Meter,
> and beware that it will reset the Ah display then it
> thinks the charged
> parameters are met, so that even though it counts
> upwards after that,
> there may be a few Ah 'missing'; e.g. you discharge
> to -100Ah, then
> recharge. At -5Ah the Emeter resets to 0. At the
> end of charge you see
> +20; this means 125Ah or 125% of the Ah removed have
> been returned, not
> 120Ah/120% as you would first think). Oh, and the
> E-Meter also
> 'discounts' charge Ah by the CEF, so unless you have
> set it to 0.99, you
> need to take that into account also (e.g. CEF=0.90
> means that every Ah
> put back into the pack is only counted as 0.9Ah by
> the E-meter, so by
> the time it indicates 100Ah returned, you have
> actually returned 111Ah).
This is the toughie. At least I think it is... See,
the E-meter operates off the DCDC, which is not on
unless the car is on. That's an issue, b/c it turns
on the controller, which shouldn't be on seeing 186V
or better...
>
> > The thing is, you don't hold it there for
> _time_,
> > you hold it there until the specific gravity is
> 1.265,
> > plus/minus a bit depending on temp.
>
> Actually, you want the specific gravity higher than
> that on traction
> batteries.
>
> For ~most~ floodeds, you can charge until the
> voltage stops rising and
> be fairly confident that the specific gravity has
> also risen as high as
> it is going to. You ought to see temperature
> compensated specific
> gravities around 1.290 (or 1.300 for relatively new,
> healthy batteries).
>
Wow! Uh-oh. Time to re-set the charger!
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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