EV Digest 4152
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Additional outside funding
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Cheap VW Bug EV's and Contactor controllers!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: PM motor for gen, go carts, mopeds RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading
OT
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EVLN(pih: the solution is already with us)
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Disturbing energy use.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Disturbing energy use.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Cheap VW Bug EV's and Contactor controllers!
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Additional outside funding
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 914EV on ebay,, ooooo
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 914EV on ebay,, ooooo
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Idea for generic adapter kit
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Emeter question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cheap VW Bug EV's and Contactor controllers!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: SiC Schottkys part 473
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 914EV on ebay,, ooooo
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/3/05 5:48:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< You are not suppose to exceed 10C >>
With kokams you can exceed 20C,there is also another I do not want to
mention. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/3/05 11:43:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I don't think I would stand a chance of winning any national
event even if I won the lottery and plowed $25k into my gasser.
>>
I am working on a fairytale season here in phoenix this year with the planned
end result a national event win at Pomona finals.
There are 7 bracket races in arizona this year with a
$5000. payout.A very succesful bracket racer in az.this year could pull in
45,000+ Racing by the NHRA rules Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cowtown and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> << I'd go with 72vdc pack of Trojan 27tmh 12v or
> t105-125's or US batt versions for longer range if
> needed charged with a 36vdc charger modified for
> 72vdc
> if using an E controller or my favorite, a contactor
> controller and charge them in parallel at 36vdc. By
> series/parallel both the batts and the motors you
> get
> 3 speeds and 4 gears plus reverse.
> This will get you a true 50mph and about 20 mile
> range with the 12vdc batt pack and probably 50 miles
> with the t125 pack. YMMV
> And do it for around $700-1200 for the EV parts
> depending on how well you can scrounge. And be a
> much
> better EV than the one from the website.
>>
>
> A contactor controller is fine if you are building
> for someone who knows its
> limitations, but if you are aiming for the general
They have done fine for 100yrs! And good ones easily
found as used parts at forklift dealers or surplus
places as well as motors, ect.
While you'll have problems as I did being too cheap
and using golf cart contactors, once I starting using
higher rated ones like the Albright SW80's bought
surplus for $14 each, I've had no problems.
> public, a couple percentage
> points lost in a controller is a lot easier way to
> handle speed adjustments in
This is more a thought than actual problem in
practice and outright problem for a citicar! And power
available is 100% more than an e-controller!!!
My E-woody uses a citicar motor and weighs about
the same.
Using my contactor controller as with all lower
powered EV's, control is mostly digital, i.e., either
full on or off ;-))
In fact I've went to just 2 speeds, a resistor for
soft starting, parking lots, and full on! Finding the
right resistor size is the key. Mine are the 2 largest
GC resistors in parallel and cost about $15 for the 3
coil set.
> traffic. This is why so many the C-cars are running
> around with pwm
> controllers, even if the original contactors were
But they are dead slow with them and can't get out
of their own way. And can't start up even the smallest
hill. An E controller may be possible here in Fla on a
C-car, but anywhere you may have to start up a hill
the CC is very superior with 800 amps startup power vs
300 or so from a 400amp Curtis.
Most C-cars after a short while with an e
controller switch back to a CC one after wasting $400
or so on it. The high 800-1,000 amp SRE-Alltrac EC's
may work better but cost as much as the whole rest of
the conversion, defeating the low cost idea here.
With the easy repairability, low costs, low
downtime for repair, high starting torque, CC are the
way to go with a C-car and many other low power and/or
voltage EV's.
> easier to fix. Plus, Lawrence
> was just thinking of NEV use, so you shouldn't need
> to shift at all with a 25mph
> top speed.
But why for the same cost wouldn't you want to go
50mph, limited by aero of the Bug, much longer range
for the same money, tag, regerstration fees,
insurance, and better resale value plus being able to
get out of it's own way?
In SF I can't see other than a CC because of the
hills in this vehicle. With the 2 motor he and I
proposed it already has 3/4's of the contactors needed
anyway and other than SRE controllers, other EC's
don't let you use 2 motors series/parallel with their
EC's.
Using my version you can have a good, easy, low
cost to convert, maintain EV for around town that can
get out of it's own way and costs much less to drive
than an ICE version or an EC version that costs more,
more downtime and slower. Your choice.
KIS
jerry dycus
>
>
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Peter Vanderwal stated:
To be fair to Peter, he agrees with you; I am the skeptic.
> Further, one analysis which modeled 4 different motors,
> including the ETEK vs a Lynch Motor, shows the ETEK
> outperforming the Lynch motor for currents BELOW 40amps
> (though not below 23v).
Interesting, however, for someone who has already expressed frustration
at the differences between published specs and actual performance, I'm a
bit surprised that you are willing to gamble your friend's money based
on someone's *simulation* of what these motors might do.
> Sure, garbage-in...garbage-out...maybe the model sucks, and
> it depends on data from the manufacturers, which can vary
> widely in production.
Absolutely. And, remember that you are planning to operate the motor
*way* off the intended region of operation, so the motor behaviour might
just vary more widely in production at your operating point than it
would if you were looking at operating the motor nearer its optimum
efficiency point.
> >From EVarchives, July2001:
> http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200107/msg00316.html
> I found this point made by Rick Woodbury regarding the Lynch
> motor curves:
Rick was writing specifically about ADC series-wound motors, not Lynch
PMDC.
> That is the key point---and why you don't see much relative
> drop in efficiency with voltage applied for much of the
> voltage range for these PM motors. The efficiency largely
> varies with torque or load. It is clear though that there is
> a knee in the efficiency curve as f(voltage), but that the
> knee is down more around 8v than 12v.
The efficiency is definitely strongly tied to the load/torque/current,
however, it does vary with voltage also. The knee I have referred to is
that which occurs below a certain load/torque/current, not below a
certain voltage.
Good luck!
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Miles and All,
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, Jerry!
> This could be the ticket for Dave's steamboat...:
You are welcome. Maybe I could get a ride in it
and your EV boat if I ever make it over there?
As a boat designer, builder of all types and steam
wantabee these both are interesting to me.
I hope to make a steam generator, CHP system to
heat, charge, my house, EV's from biomass by way of
producer gas.
This could be a good motor for EV go carts, light,
30 mph motorcycles, moped types ect too if geared
correctly so not to be overloaded.
Glad to be of help,
jerry dycus
>
> > Surplus Center has a Leeson 1800 rpm, 24vdc,
> > 62amp,, 32 lbs, sealed, 15min duty that should
> work
> > for you for a gen at $119.99 though you may need
> to
> > put a fan on it at 60 amps though 40 amps should
> be
> > cool. Should be 75% eff or better.
>
> Interesting that the same university study with the
> motor model I referenced
> earlier for the Etek and the Lynch also modeled a
> 24v Leeson (not sure if
> it's this exact one):
>
http://www.engineer.gvsu.edu/faculty/yackish/Tom%20Yackish%20Index/leeson24v
> .htm
> At 23v, they indicate 75-80% efficiency from
> 13-43amps.
> Certainly, at 15-17v (around 1200RPM) and 40amps the
> efficiency will be
> less, but good enough. Also, the price and the
> backEMF look right for our
> application---should be able to keep the steam
> engine R's below 300RPM
> pretty easy!
>
> Thanks much!
>
> -Myles Twete
>
>
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I just last week attended a symposium at WWU on the subject of foreign
> oil reduction through the use of ethanol and methanol (among other
* options)
Darn, Hasn't anybody been to brazil ¿???
The place reeks like rotten apples (or worse), they burn sugar cane alcohol,
i'm no biologist, but nothing that smells so bad can be healthy.
Let's face it, burning things won't get us anywhere, even something so
natural as burning wood makes a mess out of things, I live in santiago
Chile, things have gotten so bad here, that:
a) Cars have restriction, (this is, once a week, two digits are grounded):
Monday 7 - 8 / Tuesday 9 - 0 / wednesday 1 - 2 / thursday 3 - 4 / friday
5 - 6
This means that if your last license plate number matches any of the above
mentioned, your car stays at home.
b) Fireplaces can NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMNSTANCE BE USED (fine close to
1000 US$.
c) On serious concentration days, thermoelectric plants will shut down,
causing electricity shortage.
So as you see, it's not nice, we do not live in a nice tropical world here,
we live in a world where unconsious abuse of the environment has lead into a
need of immediate measures.
I FORGOT...
Every day we use sun filters, because we happen to live under the thinning
part of the ozone layer, so UV radiation is always CRITICAL, if northern
guys lived here (read whiter : )) ) they would peel to death in weeks.
So the point here is to stop burning things altoguether, not just fossil
fuels, please remember the state in which London was in the early 1900's,
and that was due to the use of coal.
SAID:::
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Rich Rudman
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de marzo de 2005 17:52
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: EVLN(pih: the solution is already with us)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(pih: the solution is already with us)
> > I would apologize for calling this guy a Lackey on a Open list.
>
> I do apologize for my strong characterization of the author. I am
> unaware of his work as I do not read Newsweek.
Maybe you should since it RAN in this week's Newsweek. I reread it last
night, Word for word.
This Guy just told the world About Plug in Hybrids... Why this list in not
feeling the ground shake beneath our feet is hard to fathom.
Most of the world thinks Hybrids are a final save all solution. Plug in
Hybrids with some kind of Fuel support IS the solution.
Of course if you can store all your driving needs, a EV pure and simple,
lets you move with Zero fuel.. but everybody on this list already knows
that....Don't we??
was responding to what
> appeared to me to be a completely ridiculous piece of writing nonsense.
> It seemed so fantastically over the top with it's claims and
> characterizations that I assumed it must be from a shill or some fringe
> author looking to make a name for himself. I clearly should have left
> the personal name calling out of it. I am sometimes a bit overly
> passionate when I come across the media trumpeting things that appear to
> be utter rubbish to me.
>
> I just last week attended a symposium at WWU on the subject of foreign
> oil reduction through the use of ethanol and methanol (among other
> options) and the data that was presented painted a very different
> picture than this writer laid out in his article. I also recently
> attended a major Green Power conference in Seattle that had a number of
> experts in this field saying many the same things as I asserted with the
> data to back it up.
>
> As this entire topic is pretty much off topic for this forum, if anyone
> wants to discuss my views on this subject, please contact me back
> channel.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
I am sure the list Gods are NOT going to slow us down when one of the
largest News Rags on the planet actually mentioned Plug in Hybrids.
Beware that the naysayer.... don't like ethanol.... I remember most of Idaho
trying to make EtOH in the 80s from surplus potatoes..... I have fond
memories of the 3 or 4 story reforming Still in the Chemical engineering Lag
at the U of Idaho... in the early 80s. THEY had plans to make a LOT Of EtOH.
Oh yea it was all Glass!!
Right now the world is full of folks preaching 1970 vintage energy concepts
and Dogma. They have forgotten that the world is 40 years older and
hopefully wiser. Wind was a Joke back then you can still see the rusting
vertical axis turbine just West of Ellensburg, and it's almost within sight
of the monster wind farms of the Yakima Valley. Using Standard layout
horizontal axis blades... One is a nifty 70s concept, that didn't work very
well, the New stuff is monster engineering done with serious solid concepts.
Guess which one made the Big time?
The 300 and 500 miles per gallon, References... are to how much Gasoline you
would use if a Gallon of Fuel only had %15 gasoline in it. The writer kinda
lost the line on this, Even I missed it until the second pass through. If I
had a Plug in Hybrid, and ran 450 miles EV mode, and used only 1 gallon of
gas of that 50 miles running when you came up short some lonely night out on
the highways. Then I would have traveled 500 miles on a Gallon of petro
based fuel. And if that gallon of fuel had even less petro base in
it....you get even more than 500....
The Solutions is with us,and has been for Decades, It's just cheaper the
send in the marines and secure it with force. Or just let Exxon do it...
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> These are new US 125's. The charger charges them to 7.96vdc each. The
> charger ammeter shows near 0 amps at end of charge. Plenty of bubbles and
> smell and end of charge. Resting voltage of about 6.5 if I disconnect the
> pack. I suspect a drain. I saw 6.25 once after a day sitting. I measure
> 126vdc to the frame while charging. Measured at the - side. I'll drive a
> mile and it's down to 69%. It does come back a bit. If I drive 5miles
> an
7.96V ???!!?
Are you cooking the batteries like this every day?
Normal charge voltage should only be 7.2-7.4V going up to 7.75V
occasionally for equalization.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 7.96V ???!!?
> Are you cooking the batteries like this every day?
If Lawrence is referring to the peak end of charge voltage, then this
(2.65V/cell) is not actually that unreasonable, expecially for a dv/dt
type termination (which his Lester might be using).
> Normal charge voltage should only be 7.2-7.4V going up to
> 7.75V occasionally for equalization.
US Battery recommends 2.583V/cell (7.75V) at the normal charge voltage
at 26.7C. At cooler temps this voltage target will increase further.
What you state is appropriate for Trojans, but US Battery are slightly
different chemistry and have different charging recommendations.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assuming access to a lathe. The ETEC would be very easy to test.
Bolt a torque arm to the ETEC.
Clamp the shaft of the ETEC in the lathe chuck.
Setup the torque arm so it is pushing down on a bathroom scale.
Start testing.
_______
/ \
/ \
/ \ TORQUE ARM
( O ---)---------------|--
\ / |
\ / ____|____
\_______/ |_________|
ETEC SCALE
Real world numbers overrule VR every time.
Could even be done in a mill or bigger drill press. A machine with
variable speed would be best but not absolutely nessary.
_______________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
At 08:09 AM 3/4/2005, you wrote:
Myles Twete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Peter Vanderwal stated:
To be fair to Peter, he agrees with you; I am the skeptic.
> Further, one analysis which modeled 4 different motors,
> including the ETEK vs a Lynch Motor, shows the ETEK
> outperforming the Lynch motor for currents BELOW 40amps
> (though not below 23v).
Interesting, however, for someone who has already expressed frustration
at the differences between published specs and actual performance, I'm a
bit surprised that you are willing to gamble your friend's money based
on someone's *simulation* of what these motors might do.
> Sure, garbage-in...garbage-out...maybe the model sucks, and
> it depends on data from the manufacturers, which can vary
> widely in production.
Absolutely. And, remember that you are planning to operate the motor
*way* off the intended region of operation, so the motor behaviour might
just vary more widely in production at your operating point than it
would if you were looking at operating the motor nearer its optimum
efficiency point.
> >From EVarchives, July2001:
> http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200107/msg00316.html
> I found this point made by Rick Woodbury regarding the Lynch
> motor curves:
Rick was writing specifically about ADC series-wound motors, not Lynch
PMDC.
> That is the key point---and why you don't see much relative
> drop in efficiency with voltage applied for much of the
> voltage range for these PM motors. The efficiency largely
> varies with torque or load. It is clear though that there is
> a knee in the efficiency curve as f(voltage), but that the
> knee is down more around 8v than 12v.
The efficiency is definitely strongly tied to the load/torque/current,
however, it does vary with voltage also. The knee I have referred to is
that which occurs below a certain load/torque/current, not below a
certain voltage.
Good luck!
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:54:35 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> traffic. This is why so many the C-cars are running
>> around with pwm
>> controllers, even if the original contactors were
>
> But they are dead slow with them and can't get out
>of their own way. And can't start up even the smallest
>hill. An E controller may be possible here in Fla on a
>C-car, but anywhere you may have to start up a hill
>the CC is very superior with 800 amps startup power vs
>300 or so from a 400amp Curtis.
Where in the world did you get that idea? My C-car's performance with
the AXE 450 amp controller is with a fraction of an MPH (gps data
logging) of the speed it had with the contact controller. The
controller DOES drop a volt or so at full throttle. If I cared I
could install a bypass contactor.
The acceleration is only a little slower and then only up to about 10
mph. This is because the AXE current-limits at 650 amps motor
current. Once it hits about 10 mph, the acceleration is the same.
In return for just a little less off-the-line acceleration I get in
return:
* No more thumping the batteries and motor with >1000 amps (my 1000
amp TongTester pegs hard)
* No more axle spring windup that sounds like the rear end is coming
out.
* No more busted diffs (a serious problem, so I read, with the
non-Dana axles) from the torque hammer.
* More range, since I'm not hammering the batteries with a
multi-hundred amp load most of the time. Probably longer battery
life, I don't know yet.
* Able to use an E-meter.
* No more fireworks show behind my back at night.
* No more clacking. The first time I took him for a ride, Bob the Cat
almost went out the window when I laid on the throttle the first time
with the contact controller.
* Smooth path to my 72 volt upgrade.
Probably the single biggest benefit was the ability to use an E-meter.
Now I know for sure how much range I have left and when I need to fire
off the on-board generator. The feeling of added security (notice I
said "feeling", real or imagined) is worth the cost of the conversion.
I have yet to be stranded out with a dead battery since I did the
conversion.
The Citi design was clever, splitting the pack and switching from
series to parallel when starting. But the implementation would poor,
with unequal length cabling that resulted in the closer pack supplying
a lot more current (yes, I measured) than the other. Not so hot for
battery life.
> Most C-cars after a short while with an e
>controller switch back to a CC one after wasting $400
>or so on it. The high 800-1,000 amp SRE-Alltrac EC's
>may work better but cost as much as the whole rest of
>the conversion, defeating the low cost idea here.
> With the easy repairability, low costs, low
>downtime for repair, high starting torque, CC are the
>way to go with a C-car and many other low power and/or
>voltage EV's.
Well, let's just say they work as a low cost alternative if cost and
absence of electronics is the major goal.
There are 3 Citis in this area, all with PWM conversions. No one is
considering converting back.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are many things you can do and parameterts you can
in fact axceed manufacturer won't tell you about.
Your concern is to win, their concern is avoid being responsible
for the failures if you do what you plam. Thus their ratings.
RC people have drawn almost 50C from those.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 3/3/05 5:48:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< You are not suppose to exceed 10C >>
With kokams you can exceed 20C,there is also another I do not want to
mention. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a 914 owner myself, I'd have to say that you really need to prod hard
on this car for the rust. A single starter battery that leaks on the frame
will usually wreck a 914 (rusts out the inner wheelhouse); having 12
batteries in a "collector" car would freak me out. I replaced my 914's
battery with a 26ah Hawker; they really do rust.
Granted, rust is a serious issue, and any car should be checked thoroughly
for it, especially potential donor cars. And what you are describing is
not rust, it is corrosion (which can lead to rust). However, corrosion or
rust is NOT a given with flooded batteries. It depends on how they are
installed. Most car starter batteries just sit there naked, and yes, the
area corrodes out, in ANY car. In our 914 Voltsporsche Kit (which this
eBay car is NOT an example of) all of the batteries are fully enclosed in
polypropylene boxes, and corrosion/rust is not a problem.
And, yes, the Kurt Bohan selling this car would be the former associate of
Roy Kaylor, and did edit Current EVents for a while.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However, corrosion or rust is NOT a given with flooded batteries. It
depends on how they are installed. Most car starter batteries just sit
there naked, and yes, the area corrodes out, in ANY car. In our 914
Voltsporsche Kit (which this eBay car is NOT an example of) all of the
batteries are fully enclosed in polypropylene boxes, and corrosion/rust
is not a problem.
Shari:
Quite true, and I think the VoltsPorsche kit with the boxes is a perfect
idea for a 914. First glance I thought this was one of them, but it's
got the batteries exposed in the engine room.
The 914 is a great car, and I love mine to tears. However it has one
weakness, which is that Porsche put the starter battery in the motor
room (middle) passenger's side. Apparently this was done to balance out
the weight of the driver and keep the polar weight centered in the
middle of the car however the place they put the battery was right over
the 914's main longitudal. Right under it is the rear suspension
console, and it's a nice little downhill to a point where the rear
firewall, suspension console, and side floor beam meet.
Crud on the battery would wash off in the rain and get stuck down there.
The paint would be eaten off, rust would start, and the acid would
corrode that joint. Being that it's the main longitudal it can cause the
car to break in half (seen this happen, the passenger door holds the car
together) as well as causing the trailing arm mount point to come loose
(giving the car a case of "dynamic rear toe"). Replacing this requires a
lot of welding (on the order of 5-10k) and is just not worth it on
anything but an orig 914-6.
Thus if you're going to buy a 914 on Ebay, please either have them shoot
pics of the engine room or go check it out yourself. A screwdriver and 5
minutes saved me many a time when looking for my car.
All that said, I am currently drooling over the AC version of the
VoltsPorsche on ElectroAuto's site. I wonder what a 914 would do with a
100kw AC motor, regen, and two strings of BB600 NiCDs at 300 volts
(80ah). Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Much credit for this idea goes to Steve Clunn's videos
http://www.grassrootsev.com.
The idea is to make a cheap adapter kit that could be adapted to
almost any car.
The parts would be:
cast brake-drum-shaped motor adapter (BDSMA)
taperlock adapter
metal plate
temporary adapter to hold motor adapter to electric motor shaft
bolts
loctite
Tools needed:
hacksaw
file
jig saw
dial indicator
machinist caliper
The steps:
Carefully measure the magic number (flywheel surface to tranny
mating flange distance).
Put taperlock adapter onto motor. Make sure it is square with the
dial indicator, file a bit if needed.
Temporarily bolt on the flywheel, and measure the distance from
the flywheel surface to the motor face. This distance minus the magic
number, minus the thickness of the metal plate, is how thick the
BDSMA depth needs to be.
Put the temporary adapter on the taperlock, and put on the brake
drum shaped motor adapter (BDSMA).
Use the dial indicator to make sure the back side of the BDSMA is
true, do a little filing of the temporary adapter if needed.
Measure off and mark the BDSMA depth plus about 1/8" on the
BDSMA.
Cover the electric motor to protect from chips and dust, and spin
up the BDSMA. Hold a hacksaw blade against the above mark to cut off
excess (light hold, light pressure, no hands on the teeth, in case
the blade gets yanked). Then hold the file against this cut surface
(with the motor spinning) and measure frequently (with the motor off
and not spinning!) until the BDSMA depth is achieved.
Unbolt the BDSMA and the temporary adapter. Bolt the BDSMA to the
electric motor. Bolt the metal plate to the BDSMA. Bolt on the
flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate. Refer to Steve Clunn's
http://www.grassrootsev.com videos for hooking up with clamps,
tapping with a hammer until minimum noise (working the clutch
frequently), and then drilling, tapping, and bolting down the tranny
bolts.
I know that is just a sketch of what to do. The goal would be to
improve economies of scale by having the same BDSMA and metal plate
for all cars. The taperlock hub still needs to be custom made, as
that is beyond the described methods.
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--- Begin Message ---
I want to get an Emeter for my EV project and I'm wondering what other people
are using. Are the
Link 10 and 20 the best to get? Are the 1000 and 2000 overkill? I don't think I
need it to control
an inverter/charger, do I? Are there other options that work as well as the
Emeter?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS. I plan on using it with a 120-144 volt pack of NiCads.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:54:35 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> >> traffic. This is why so many the C-cars are
> running
> >> around with pwm
> >> controllers, even if the original contactors were
> >
> > But they are dead slow with them and can't get
> out
> >of their own way. And can't start up even the
> smallest
> >hill. An E controller may be possible here in Fla
> on a
> >C-car, but anywhere you may have to start up a hill
> >the CC is very superior with 800 amps startup power
> vs
> >300 or so from a 400amp Curtis.
>
> Where in the world did you get that idea? My
From many posts of people who did.
> C-car's performance with
> the AXE 450 amp controller is with a fraction of an
This is a higher amp controller, Altraxs?, like I
said would be better.
I was comparing the CC to a Curtis 400 amp that
only puts out about 300 motor amps. Reread and you'll
see.
> MPH (gps data
> logging) of the speed it had with the contact
> controller. The
> controller DOES drop a volt or so at full throttle.
> If I cared I
> could install a bypass contactor.
A CC drops about a volt too so top speed is about
the same on the same EV.
>
> The acceleration is only a little slower and then
> only up to about 10
This is where I said a CC was better besides costs
and you seem to agree.
> mph. This is because the AXE current-limits at 650
> amps motor
> current. Once it hits about 10 mph, the
> acceleration is the same.
With your better EC yes, but worse with a Curtis.
How much does your EC cost?
How long, how much does it take to be repaired?
>
> In return for just a little less off-the-line
> acceleration I get in
> return:
>
> * No more thumping the batteries and motor with
> >1000 amps (my 1000
With series/parallel and the resistor you only put
about 400 amps or less on each batt on startup, about
the same probably as your EC.
The example of the 2 motor Bug EV would use even
less as both motors in series and batts would be
parallel with much better torque at reasonably low
amps/batt.
My batts are 2.5 yrs old now and act fresh with no
signs of damage other than being dumb and getting stud
terminal. Next time it will be flag terminals..
> amp TongTester pegs hard)
> * No more axle spring windup that sounds like the
> rear end is coming
> out.
Did you use the resistor and let it come up to
speed before you switched speeds? Or put the pedal to
the metal?
> * No more busted diffs (a serious problem, so I
> read, with the
> non-Dana axles) from the torque hammer.
Only from jack rabbit starts going straight to full
power, not smart.
> * More range, since I'm not hammering the batteries
> with a
> multi-hundred amp load most of the time. Probably
No problem on mine so far.
And lower amps/batt than that on the C-car with CC
since they are in parallel 24vdc for starting with the
resistor.
> longer battery
> life, I don't know yet.
Maybe. We'll see.
> * Able to use an E-meter.
As I use mine without a parallel batt starting,
just the resistor it can be used with an e-meter.
Though the e meter's reliability is fairly bad and
are costly. It can easily be replaced with a DVM, amp
meter and a brain with experience, cheaper and more
reliable.
> * No more fireworks show behind my back at night.
It just lets you know it's working ;-)) My
contactor are enclosed so not a problem.
> * No more clacking. The first time I took him for a
> ride, Bob the Cat
> almost went out the window when I laid on the
> throttle the first time
> with the contact controller.
That would be a good point for me as I don't
like cats in my EV. They and dogs do run whenever I
come by so something is spooking them. Mine are quiet
so have to strain to hear them in traffic.
> * Smooth path to my 72 volt upgrade.
Same here as my new EV will be 72vdc. Costs for
it's 4-5 speed CC about $75 with a spare contactor.
I'll use a golf cart transaxle for it.
>
> Probably the single biggest benefit was the ability
> to use an E-meter.
> Now I know for sure how much range I have left and
> when I need to fire
> off the on-board generator. The feeling of added
What do you use? I'm going to use a 5.5hp honda to
a PM motor for mine and start it by motoring the gen
and can be used while driving for unlimited range.
> security (notice I
> said "feeling", real or imagined) is worth the cost
> of the conversion.
Being able to repair my CC is security to me
without waiting 3 weeks to get it repaired not to
mention the costs!! I can buy 2-4 CC for the price of
most EC's repairs.
> I have yet to be stranded out with a dead battery
> since I did the
> conversion.
Same here.
>
> The Citi design was clever, splitting the pack and
> switching from
> series to parallel when starting. But the
> implementation would poor,
> with unequal length cabling that resulted in the
> closer pack supplying
> a lot more current (yes, I measured) than the other.
> Not so hot for
> battery life.
Quite easy to fix and no problem with my batt life.
>
> > Most C-cars after a short while with an e
> >controller switch back to a CC one after wasting
> $400
> >or so on it. The high 800-1,000 amp SRE-Alltrac
> EC's
> >may work better but cost as much as the whole rest
> of
> >the conversion, defeating the low cost idea here.
> > With the easy repairability, low costs, low
> >downtime for repair, high starting torque, CC are
> the
> >way to go with a C-car and many other low power
> and/or
> >voltage EV's.
>
> Well, let's just say they work as a low cost
> alternative if cost and
> absence of electronics is the major goal.
That was what the posts were about weren't they,
cheap EV's?
>
> There are 3 Citis in this area, all with PWM
> conversions. No one is
> considering converting back.
Go for it! I'll on the other hand have $4-700 more
in my pocket and never have to wait, pay for repairs.
Considering my whole new EV will cost less than
$700 in parts means I'll drive my EV for much less
than you will with a much higher, safer, top speed,
range, freeway and cross-country ability.
To the off list poster, I get SW80 Albright
contactors from Surplus Center for $14 each.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray-
Thanks for more thoughts on this.
One note to consider: with alternators using a full-wave-diode bridge on the
output, 2 silicon diodes are always in the path of current. With an average
charging current of 40amps, this means that power lost just in the diode
bridge ALONE is roughly 2*0.8*40 = 64watts.
With a DC generator, AT MOST you need just one diode. Right there is
30+watts of savings, and possibly more like 50+watts if a simple transistor
charge controller were used---even a direct connection might work for the
steam gen application after an initial rampup since if you slowed or even
stopped the steam, the generator would just start acting like a motor below
a certain speed.
Similarly, a DC motor/gen itself could be used to slowly "spin up and warm"
the 2-cylinder steam engine---something that right now is done by hand,
risks steam burns and getting shirt sleeves caught in the V-belt or other
linkage.
> If not I suspect that with just 1.5hp and a 3 to 1 pulley ratio that
> you can only produce 375watts at 100% efficiency.
Are you suggesting that power loss is proportional to the gear ratio?
That process is lossy, but it's nowhere near a direct proportion---maybe 30%
with a 1:6 ratio with v-belt drive? Generator bearing friction and other
reflected load torques certainly get amplified by the ratio when seen at the
steam engine shaft, but that doesn't mean that power gets reduced
proportional to the ratio.
-Myles
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--- Begin Message ---
The list could use some solid engineering blather....
The fluff content is a bit high right now.
I certainly have not helprd much.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 7:21 PM
Subject: SiC Schottkys part 473
> You guys wanna discuss our points of view on evtech? This is probably
> boring to the EVDL.
>
> Seth
>
> On Mar 2, 2005, at 6:17 PM, Lee Hart wrote: (more on SiC Schottkys)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:05 PM -0500 3-4-05, Christopher Zach wrote:
Crud on the battery would wash off in the rain and get stuck down
there. The paint would be eaten off, rust would start, and the acid
would corrode that joint. Being that it's the main longitudal it can
cause the car to break in half (seen this happen, the passenger door
holds the car together) as well as causing the trailing arm mount
point to come loose (giving the car a case of "dynamic rear toe").
Replacing this requires a lot of welding (on the order of 5-10k) and
is just not worth it on anything but an orig 914-6.
For those curious about just how bad this often gets, and how much
work it is to fix it, take a look at this link to a long thread on
the 914 club forum while keeping in mind that this car looked great
on the outside:
http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=16748
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray, after our experience with the misleading and fraudulent online claims
made by Thermodyne and its PMA permanent magnet motor/gens regarding power
output, efficiency and real charging output vs. speed, I have to ask:
When you quote alternator CURRENT at SPEED, is this the current that the
alternator dishes out (1) short circuit, (2) to a resistive load to GROUND,
or (3) to a nominally 13-15v battery?
This is key. Why?
Isc ~ (Kb*RPM)/Rint
Ires ~ (Kb*RPM)/(Rint + Rload)
Ichg ~ (Kb*RPM-Vbatt)/Rint
Where: Isc, Ires, Ichg are short ckt, resistive load and charge current,
respectively. Kb is the motor constant in v/RPM. Rint, Rload are internal
and load resistances, respective. Vbatt is battery nominal voltage under
charge. NOTE: bridge diode drop losses lumped with Rint.
Each resultant current is clearly different than the other, with Isc being
highest, the other two being less.
The bozos at Thermodyne show graphs of Isc (short circuit current) vs speed.
This is clearly VASTLY greater at a given speed than you'd expect with
either a matched load (Rint=Rload) OR charging a battery.
Example: Take the case of a 2000RPM 55amp alternator (maybe yours?) with
Rint = 0.6ohm. If the 55amp spec is Isc, then Kb ~ 0.6*55/2000 or
16.5v/1000RPM.
At 2000RPM, the charging current, Ichg, into 13.2v would only be
(33-13.2)/0.6, or 33amps, NOT 55amps.
If, on the other hand, the 55amp spec is matched load, i.e. Rload = Rint,
then Kb ~ 33v/1000RPM. Then, at 2000RPM, Ichg ~ 44amps, still less than 50.
So I ask, what is it that is actually being specified?
Is it charging current into a nominally 13.2v battery?
Is it possible to get real motor/gen performance curves, internal resistance
specs, diode drops, etc. for your alternators?
Thanks, Ray, for your patience and help in trying to understand these.
-Myles Twete
> Outputs for the C
S130ACSE are as follows: about 10amps at
> 1500rpm, 55amps at
> 2000, 70amps at 2250, 95amps at 3000, 110amps at 4000,
> 117amps at 5000,
> 120amps at 6000. All measured rotor rpm, and I must add
> recently I have been
> beating those numbers by almost 10%.
> I put a Thunder Series on the bench yesterday and played
> around with it for
> a while. I had to use my old bench and my hand held tach
> isn't working, so
> these numbers are approximate. But at about 1800rpm at a
> 35amp load, the
> alternators casing got up to 95F, the stator lams hit 147F,
> and the air
> coming out of the fan was 109F. Same load at 2250 and the
> casings went down
> to 90F, the windings to 121F and the air around the fan hit
> 102F. I could
> also physically hear a difference in how hard the alternator
> was working. At
> 1800 you knew it was under load, at 2250 it didn't seem like
> it was working
> hard at all.
> As for the power in and power out. Some thoughts are if you are going
> through a pulley or gear, your torque/hp requirements go up
> proportionally.
> It may be possible that you have only 1.5hp, but sufficient
> torque to do the
> job. If not I suspect that with just 1.5hp and a 3 to 1
> pulley ratio that
> you can only produce 375watts at 100% efficiency. But since
> you were able to
> get 20amps out of the old GM unit, I think (I am assuming)
> you have a lot of
> extra torque available.
> The Bosch units came out this year. They are claiming the
> efficiency based
> on stator winding efficiency. Having never had one apart, or
> in my hands, I
> cannot comment to its claims. To say that I am skeptical, is an under
> statement. Bosch makes decent units, but they have never been
> known for
> ground breaking technology. So I would dearly love to see
> some real world
> test results. After all if they are truly that efficient,
> they will save a
> chunk of gas, which would be their biggest selling feature.
> The EcoAir has been proven to get the average ambulance 5.9%
> better fuel
> economy. Real world proof of their claims. However the more I
> think about
> it, they are not an option for you anyway. They are meant to
> be high output
> and thus the P/M portion of the rotor covers the first
> 50-100amps at least
> of output. Below that and the other coil has to buck the
> alternator, which
> will take up plenty of HP. So if you had a 100amp load they would be
> extremely efficient, but at 40amps they may be extremely
> inefficient. And
> for the record, I can sell you either of these alternators
> for a lot less
> than you are finding on the net. To me they would make very
> effective regen
> braking units for lower voltage vehicles.
> In my mind I keep coming back to the Denso square wire units.
> I will play
> with one of these over the weekend and see what is really up
> with it. I
> don't know that I can get you efficient numbers, but a charge
> curve would be
> easy. And from the last time I had one on the bench, it put
> out huge in the
> bottom end. I have about 15 of these in stock that are OE
> take offs. The
> clutch pulleys had gone bad. Another what where you thinking
> part. But I
> could give you a good deal on a rebuilt unit, or even better
> on a take off.
> Raymond
>
>
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