EV Digest 4153
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVs at Seattle Hot Rod Show
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: SiC Schottkys
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Emeter question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Additional outside funding
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Cheap VW Bug EV's and Contactor controllers!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Emeter question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Emeter question
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Emeter question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Idea for generic adapter kit
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Regarding the Spirit and Purpose of NEDRA
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Battery Desulfation of Lead Acid Batteries s
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) one-piece drive assemblies
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
Posting this on behalf of Father Time-
100 mph NEDRA record holder 156V electric drag bike Dragon Rose and Coco
Loto a '34 Ford 5/8 scale electric legend car will be exhibited at the
Longley Motorsports booth.
The Seattle Hot Rod Show is Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, March 4-6 2005 at
the Exhibition Center at 1st Avenue South and Royal Broughham just South of
the Seahawks Stadium.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: SiC Schottkys
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Funny Lee..
>
> No, I'm not trying to be funny, Rich. I hope you don't get the idea that
> I'm joking, or trying to criticise existing designs.
>
> But when you look at more sophisticated switchmode power circuits, you
> will see that the designers were aware of this problem, and included the
> extra parts and circuits needed to manage these effects. The resulting
> designs are smaller, cheaper, and more efficient.
>
> I think that if someone is going to mass produce a PWM controller, it is
> only a matter of time before they will realize that there are great
> improvements to be made by applying the same soft-switching and snubbing
> techniques already used in almost all other switchmode power circuits.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Lee:
You didn't point to Why the SiC diodes would not help in a Buck
controller or a Switchmode PFC charger.
The thread was the use of this new diode, and if it could help our current
design efforts in ON road EVs.
I noted the increased voltage drop, sited the examples, and posted some real
data.
The SiC diodes should GREATLY reduce the turn off spikes that a Buck
controller or a Buck/Boost controller sees. In most instances this is going
to reduce the need for snubbers on even a hardswitched control scheme.
simplyfing the design, by using better devicces that don't make the mistake
that causes the spikes in the first place.
In my design it may be ALL that is needed to eat up excessive RF noise. I am
also curious as to how much less heat is made since the there will be less
stresses on the IGBTs, and snubber caps.
Will it cancel out the increased conduction losses??? or does the old big
and heavy cheap part, make less heat but create more hash.
I thougt by tagging out hard, you might reply with some hard won insights?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I've come across this aftermarket hybrid electric system. Check it out and
see what you think. They're supposed to go on sale during the summer of
2005. Estimated price is $2800. Quote from the site..."The on-board energy
for the ElectrochargerTM comes from the Super Capacitor Battery Pack (SCBP)
that provides up to 600 amps at 48 volts to the electric motor for
acceleration durations." If true, that sounds like a decent boost. The
system also uses regenerative braking. Can anyone identify the electric
motor used in the pictures? If so maybe some ratings could be determined.
Supposedly the motor weighs 15lbs and the SCBP with the controller weigh
55lbs. That seems a little light to handle the peak power they claim. This
might be an interesting system to use for a small ev or motorcycle with a
supplementary battery pack.
I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the electric
motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be needed.
Anyways, just an idea.
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The electric motors in the pictures sure look like a Lemco and an
Etek...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bholmber
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:30 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
Hello all,
I've come across this aftermarket hybrid electric system. Check it out
and
see what you think. They're supposed to go on sale during the summer of
2005. Estimated price is $2800. Quote from the site..."The on-board
energy
for the ElectrochargerTM comes from the Super Capacitor Battery Pack
(SCBP)
that provides up to 600 amps at 48 volts to the electric motor for
acceleration durations." If true, that sounds like a decent boost. The
system also uses regenerative braking. Can anyone identify the electric
motor used in the pictures? If so maybe some ratings could be
determined.
Supposedly the motor weighs 15lbs and the SCBP with the controller weigh
55lbs. That seems a little light to handle the peak power they claim.
This
might be an interesting system to use for a small ev or motorcycle with
a
supplementary battery pack.
I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the
electric
motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be
needed.
Anyways, just an idea.
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very interesting...
The common knowledge is that SiC will almost eliminate the Trr(time for
reverse recovery) induced current spikes in Buck converters.
You say they add to the problem... I say, they should not...OK I
guess we will find out.
They run hotter, but give us more head room to actually run that hot.
OK....This is the design point that I get to weight.... hotter Vs Less RF
and smaller snubber caps.
My chargers could use some refinements in the switching control strategy,
there are many ways of getting it done.
So while I am shipping Cookbook circuits, that charge EVs about twice as
fast as others...you are still refining and researching the finesse that is
need to get the job done.
OK we have a pretty different design philosophy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Yea Seth I read that PCIM issue also.
> > I did some checking and it's like $200 for a To-220 device.
> > But the specs are too kill for. It's clear these devices will
> > revolutionize power silicon architecture.
>
> Rich, Seth... you are looking at it wrong. Silicon carbide devices take
> the specs we want in the wrong direction. They have higher forward
> drops, run hotter, cost more, and generate more emi. This is the
> 'brute force' way to do it: "I can solve any problem with a big enough
> hammer."
>
> This is not the way to make better, cheaper, power devices that will
> expand usage. The answer lies in finesse. Don't look to faster devices;
> instead, look at ways to minimize losses and maximize the performance of
> devices that make use of their intrinsic strengths and weaknesses.
>
> For example, resonant and quasiresonant switching. Lossless snubbers.
> Different circuit topologies.
>
> Really good design requires a careful balancing act between all the
> competing factors. Not cookbook circuits, saved with unobtainium parts.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I am using the Link 10 only for my main battery pack. Its gives me a reference
between Amphour use and Amphour replaced by the battery charger.
The battery charger should have also a set of AC volts and amps in and DC volts
and amps out.
I used a separated amp and volt meters for the inverter/charger one set for
input and another set for output.
Also as a back up to the Link 10, I used a battery pack volt and amp meter and
a motor volt and amp meter.
If you used a 12 volt accessory battery, than it would be prefer to have a set
of 12 volt and amp gages for this battery. I watch this as close as any other
indications. If I run the 12 battery alone for testing purposes without any
inverter/charger on, I could run it down where it will not operated the control
system.
My EV started out 30 years ago with just One battery volt and amp meter, and I
add more indications as time went by.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cover<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Emeter question
I want to get an Emeter for my EV project and I'm wondering what other people
are using. Are the
Link 10 and 20 the best to get? Are the 1000 and 2000 overkill? I don't think
I need it to control
an inverter/charger, do I? Are there other options that work as well as the
Emeter?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS. I plan on using it with a 120-144 volt pack of NiCads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When do you need the BMS?
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 3/3/05 3:08:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< How many do you need / what is the total cost for what you need?
>>
I need just$ 50,000 to buy the lithiums and bms of my choice.The Current
Eliminator is completly prepared to handle the power NOW. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bholmber wrote:
I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the electric
motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be needed.
Anyways, just an idea.
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
What kind of CRX with rear diffderential is this? AFAIK, all CRXes
ever produced were only FWD.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
>> But they are dead slow with them and can't get out
>> of their own way. And can't start up even the smallest
>> hill. An E controller may be possible here in Fla on a
>> C-car, but anywhere you may have to start up a hill
>> the CC is very superior with 800 amps startup power vs
>> 300 or so from a 400amp Curtis.
Neon John wrote:
> Where in the world did you get that idea? My C-car's performance
> with the AXE 450 amp controller is with a fraction of an MPH
> (gps data logging) of the speed it had with the contact controller.
He told you -- with a Curtis 400amp controller.
I tried a Curtis 1209B in my ComutaVan, and its performance fell
considerably as Jerry observed. The contactor controller was a few mph
faster, and accellerated nearly twice as fast. The main problem was that
the Curtis "400amp" controller rarely delivered even 300 amps, because
it heated up and cut back the current due to the ComutaVan's normal 150
amp cruising current.
In contrast, the contactor controller would deliver 500+ amps peak, and
so provided much faster accelleration. I am one of the people that
pulled the Curtis out and went back to the contactor controller.
It sounds like your higher-powered AXE controller would have been a
better match -- but it wasn't available. I suspect almost all the people
that put PWM controllers in their CitiCar/ComutaCar/ComutaVans use the
Curtis controllers. They are a lot more likely to be disappointed than
you are with your AXE to grind.
> * No more thumping the batteries and motor with >1000 amps (my 1000
> amp TongTester pegs hard)
Of course, that is driver-controlled. People who don't know any better
drive a contactor controller like an on/off switch (full power from a
dead stop). They break things. If they are trainable, they learn not to
do this.
Same thing for a regular ICE car. Kids will rev the engine and pop the
clutch for fun, or to get more accelleration. They break things, and
learn not to do it.
> * No more axle spring windup that sounds like the rear end is coming
> out.
> * No more busted diffs (a serious problem, so I read, with the
> non-Dana axles) from the torque hammer.
I never had these problems with my ComutaVan, but I did have the Dana
rear axle. Also, the motor coupler had a rubber insert; I tore it out a
couple times, but it was easy to replace.
> * More range, since I'm not hammering the batteries with a
> multi-hundred amp load most of the time. Probably longer battery
> life, I don't know yet.
I could not measure any difference in range between a contactor and PWM
controllers. But I could probably cause a difference by careless driving
(since I can accellerate and drive faster with the contactor
controller).
> * Able to use an E-meter.
I had one with a contactor controller. There is no real problem. You set
it in KWH mode, not Amphour mode.
> * No more fireworks show behind my back at night.
> * No more clacking.
That's strange. Your contactors arced noticeably? Mine barely did. Plus,
mine were under the hood, where any sights and sounds were not intrusive
anyway.
> * Smooth path to my 72 volt upgrade.
I was running a 36v/72v system. It came standard on the ComutaVan.
> The Citi design was clever, splitting the pack and switching from
> series to parallel when starting. But the implementation was poor,
THAT'S for sure! I got the impression that the designer of the CitiCar's
contactor controllers had never looked at a real contactor controller
and learned from it.
>> With the easy repairability, low costs, low downtime for repair,
>> high starting torque, CC are the way to go with a C-car and many
>> other low power and/or voltage EV's.
> Well, let's just say they work as a low cost alternative if cost and
> absence of electronics is the major goal.
I agree with both of these statements. Both types of controllers work
fine if they are designed, sized and installed properly.
The main "problems" with both contactor and PWM controllers occur when
they are badly designed, improperly sized, or incorrectly installed.
What I wish we had for NEV-type vehicles is a hybrid controller; half
contactor, half PWM. You always need contactors anyway for safety,
reversing, reliability, and efficiency. And the PWM can provide smoother
starting, current limiting, and "idiot-proofing".
What I visualize is a controller that uses PWM to get you started, thus
eliminating the starting resistor and its contactor. But keep the
forward/reverse and series/parallel contactors. This way you have 100%
efficiency at full or half throttle, and redundant contactors to cut
power in case of a PWM failure. Since almost all your driving in these
vehicles tends to be at full or half power anyway, the PWM basically
runs "cold" and can be considerably smaller and simpler.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
Other option - Brusa Ah counter. Does everything Link10
does (except has no RS232) and some more, depending on the model.
http://www.metricmind.com/counter.htm
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Dave Cover wrote:
I want to get an Emeter for my EV project and I'm wondering what other people are using. Are the
Link 10 and 20 the best to get? Are the 1000 and 2000 overkill? I don't think I need it to control
an inverter/charger, do I? Are there other options that work as well as the Emeter?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS. I plan on using it with a 120-144 volt pack of NiCads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, I've looking into this before. Of the 4 models offered by Xantrex: Model
Voltage Link 10 0-50 VDC (0-100v or 0-500v using prescaler), single
bankLink 20 0-50 VDC, double bank with common groundLink 100 0-50 VDC,
single bank monitor and charge/invert controlLink 200 8.5-50 VDC, singl bank
monitor and charge/invert control The 50 VDC top end limits you to 40v or less
nominal pack voltage, so you will overload the monitor (Link 20 or above) when
recharging even a 48v pack. And the Link 20 will not work with a dual pack that
you might want to charge in series, due to the common ground reference on the
dual shunt. Other option more focused on the EV is Brusa AH Counters, which
work for single and dual packs. (http://www.metricmind.com/counter.htm). BR,Ed
Thorpe--- On Fri 03/04, Dave Cover < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From: Dave
Cover [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:10:47
-0800 (PST)Subject: Emeter !
questionI want to get an Emeter for my EV project and I'm wondering what other
people are using. Are theLink 10 and 20 the best to get? Are the 1000 and 2000
overkill? I don't think I need it to controlan inverter/charger, do I? Are
there other options that work as well as the Emeter? ThanksDave CoverPS. I plan
on using it with a 120-144 volt pack of NiCads.
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just noticed that the link to the BCM Ah counters is no longer valid.
Will fix it this weekend, meantime if you want, download this manual
from here: http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/manuals/bcm_155.pdf
It has all the details (including interface schematics) you'd want
to know to decide if this is what you want. Lee would enjoy seeing
this level of details :-). BTW, counters employ Lee style bridge
- an input connected to the mid of the pack. If mid point voltage
is not equal half of the total, the pack assumed to have problems.
One cool feature is if you don't like digital readout, these counters
can drive analog meters showing directly Ah in and/or out of the
battery, Wh in/out, or whatever else counter displays (Volts, Amps,
temps C and F...)
Welcome to consider all this as a plug :-)
Victor
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Dave,
Other option - Brusa Ah counter. Does everything Link10
does (except has no RS232) and some more, depending on the model.
http://www.metricmind.com/counter.htm
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're right. But, the 4th generation (88-91) civics and crxs share a lot of
components, so I figured that the adaption of the rear suspension from a all
wheel drive 5 door wagon civic onto a CRX should be possible.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
bholmber wrote:
> I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the
electric
> motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
> generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be needed.
> Anyways, just an idea.
>
> http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
What kind of CRX with rear diffderential is this? AFAIK, all CRXes
ever produced were only FWD.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm afraid you won't have room for the rear differential in CRX,
not to mention lack of attacnment points for suspension elements
and anti-torque upper arms (what are they called?).
I use to own 4x4 Civic, and the stamped body bottom had a large cavity
for the top of diff and the drive shaft. CRXes don't have that.
Victor
bholmber wrote:
You're right. But, the 4th generation (88-91) civics and crxs share a lot of
components, so I figured that the adaption of the rear suspension from a all
wheel drive 5 door wagon civic onto a CRX should be possible.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
bholmber wrote:
I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the
electric
motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be needed.
Anyways, just an idea.
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
What kind of CRX with rear diffderential is this? AFAIK, all CRXes
ever produced were only FWD.
Victor
--
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
I found a really simple way to adapt the flywheel to
the motor. I chucked the flywheel into the lathe and
cut a hole for the taperlok adapter. I then press fit
the adapter into the flywheel and welded the backside.
I then put a new pilot bearing hole in the end of the
motor. Then bolted the whole shebang onto an adapter
plate. There was no need for a spacer behind the
motor, and having the flywheel on the shaft rather
than stuck out in front of it minimizes any wobbles. I
put the flywheel on the motor and spun it up and was
suprisingly smooth. After all the machining I had done
to the flywheel I thought I would need to have it
balanced. But, maybe since I removed the ring gear and
more than an inch of diameter. The imbalances are less
noticable. It took less than an hour to do the work on
the flywheel and saved a ton of work on the process. I
will post the pictures soon. For some reason my server
is hanging when I try to upload pictures.
Gadget
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Much credit for this idea goes to Steve Clunn's
> videos
> http://www.grassrootsev.com.
>
> The idea is to make a cheap adapter kit that could
> be adapted to
> almost any car.
>
> The parts would be:
>
> cast brake-drum-shaped motor adapter (BDSMA)
> taperlock adapter
> metal plate
> temporary adapter to hold motor adapter to
> electric motor shaft
> bolts
> loctite
>
> Tools needed:
>
> hacksaw
> file
> jig saw
> dial indicator
> machinist caliper
>
> The steps:
>
> Carefully measure the magic number (flywheel
> surface to tranny
> mating flange distance).
>
> Put taperlock adapter onto motor. Make sure it
> is square with the
> dial indicator, file a bit if needed.
>
> Temporarily bolt on the flywheel, and measure
> the distance from
> the flywheel surface to the motor face. This
> distance minus the magic
> number, minus the thickness of the metal plate, is
> how thick the
> BDSMA depth needs to be.
>
> Put the temporary adapter on the taperlock, and
> put on the brake
> drum shaped motor adapter (BDSMA).
>
> Use the dial indicator to make sure the back
> side of the BDSMA is
> true, do a little filing of the temporary adapter if
> needed.
>
> Measure off and mark the BDSMA depth plus about
> 1/8" on the
> BDSMA.
>
> Cover the electric motor to protect from chips
> and dust, and spin
> up the BDSMA. Hold a hacksaw blade against the above
> mark to cut off
> excess (light hold, light pressure, no hands on the
> teeth, in case
> the blade gets yanked). Then hold the file against
> this cut surface
> (with the motor spinning) and measure frequently
> (with the motor off
> and not spinning!) until the BDSMA depth is
> achieved.
>
> Unbolt the BDSMA and the temporary adapter. Bolt
> the BDSMA to the
> electric motor. Bolt the metal plate to the BDSMA.
> Bolt on the
> flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate. Refer to Steve
> Clunn's
> http://www.grassrootsev.com videos for hooking up
> with clamps,
> tapping with a hammer until minimum noise (working
> the clutch
> frequently), and then drilling, tapping, and bolting
> down the tranny
> bolts.
>
> I know that is just a sketch of what to do. The goal
> would be to
> improve economies of scale by having the same BDSMA
> and metal plate
> for all cars. The taperlock hub still needs to be
> custom made, as
> that is beyond the described methods.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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You could do this with just about any mostly-FWD AWD. Mitsubishi, Mazda
and Toyota among others made AWD sports cars in the late 80's and early
90's, plus there are the various family wagons and small car-based SUVs
that are available in FWD and AWD versions.
I've always thought a Honda Element would make a neat HEV (although the
payload is crappy to start with). You could bolt in the new Honda
diesel from the European CRV in front and borrow some parts from the
AWD version to drive the rear wheels electrically.
The problem is that in a parallel hybrid you really want the front
wheels to be the electrically driven part, since you can do much more
aggressive regen that way. Otmar's Vanagon (is that still around?) was
set up that way.
-Frank
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, that came to mind, the hope was that the mounts and parts would match
up. Making some room for the differental probably wouldn't be too bad. Plus
you could mount it in just about any direction you wanted. I haven't looked
into it too deeply, but the idea sounds pretty appealing. My CRX is hitting
191K, and still is running strong, though it needs a clutch, shocks, and
timing belt soon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
I'm afraid you won't have room for the rear differential in CRX,
not to mention lack of attacnment points for suspension elements
and anti-torque upper arms (what are they called?).
I use to own 4x4 Civic, and the stamped body bottom had a large cavity
for the top of diff and the drive shaft. CRXes don't have that.
Victor
bholmber wrote:
> You're right. But, the 4th generation (88-91) civics and crxs share a lot
of
> components, so I figured that the adaption of the rear suspension from a
all
> wheel drive 5 door wagon civic onto a CRX should be possible.
>
> Brett
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:48 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
>
>
> bholmber wrote:
>
>
>>I was thinking I could make my CRX plug in hybrid by connecting the
>
> electric
>
>>motor to a rear differential and suspension sourced from of the fourth
>>generation awd civic wagons. A supplementary battery pack would be needed.
>>Anyways, just an idea.
>>
>>http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
>
>
> What kind of CRX with rear diffderential is this? AFAIK, all CRXes
> ever produced were only FWD.
>
> Victor
--
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Jay Brown noted:
> The electric motors in the pictures sure look like a Lemco and an
> Etek...
Yeah, sure does, and I'm impressed that they're pushing the ETEK envelope in
the writeup: "provides up to 600amps at 48v"....i.e. an extra 38HP for
acceleration.
Maybe people don't realize it but while the ETEK is spec'd at a max. 150amps
or so continuous and 330amps for short intervals, it's short circuit current
at 48v is over 1000amps---though the brushes might just weld themselves to
the commutator if you tried this for more than a split sec...
I like their belt drive arrangement.
That's what I'd like to see my buddy Dave do on his steamboat---ditch the
extra steam engine and rig up a PM motor like an Etek to each of his prop
shafts with a bodacious belt drive---could be a hybrid steam/electric, steam
w/electric recharging, or, disconnecting the steam engines altogether, pure
electric. He'd finally want to invest in real batteries....
-MT
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Hello to All,
As one of the founding fathers of NEDRA, as a life member, and having served as
president
for the first 5 years, I'd like to speak up on the recent 'Dave Cloud's Rules
ideas'
subject and other aspects of NEDRA.
First off, a BIG thank you to Rod Wilde for standing up to pressures when he
feels they
aren't taking NEDRA in the right direction. I for one, appreciate all he has
and continues
to do for NEDRA.
The reason NEDRA exists, isn't to promote individuals, it's to promote EVs.
Lately, the
emphasis seems to be on how to reinvent NEDRA to accommodate 'winning' for
those who seem
fixated on beating the other guy or winning a prize. Don't get me wrong, we all
have fun
trash-talking each other, taunting the competitors, and in general, hyping what
we do, but
for the core NEDRA racers, we all understand that the most important aspect, is
promoting
the EV. We do this by dispelling the myth that EVs are dull, slow, and boring,
and by
mixing it up with muscle cars, rice burners, and drag machines as we
demonstrate how
powerful, quick, and fast EVs can be. Sure, it's fun to set records and to
'win', but it
isn't the driving force for us at all.
Having magazines around the world talk about fast EVs, seeing a report on TV or
a full
blown production like 'Sucking Amps', and catching the stunned reaction of
former
disbelieving spectators at the track, is how I define 'winning'.
My belief, is that having a powerful EV that also doesn't come off as a rolling
science
project, is far more important than 'winning'. It's easy to make a machine from
orange
board, duct tape, and hastily-made metal pieces that weighs next to nothing and
doesn't
even look like a 'car', then run it down the track to set a speed record. It's
far harder
to take a recognizable street bodied car and do the same thing...which one
promotes the EV
cause better? When Rod Wilde showed up with Maniac Mazda, even though it was
highly
modified, everyone still new it was an RX7, and let me tell you, when it pulled
its nose
in the air, baked it wrinkle walls, and ran 11's and 12's, 'everybody' stood up
and
noticed the EV!
The same can be said for any of Father Time's beautifully crafted machines, Bob
Salem's EV
pickup, Dennis Berube's always detailed rail, Bill Dube's motorcyle...I can go
on.
> If I were to propose a new way to separate class divisions, it would be based
> on money, a standard claimer system used in
> many forms of racing.
>
Those of us who have spent years creating and improving our racing EVs, would
never, ever,
consider the option of allowing them to be subject to a 'hostile take-over'.
When Dave
Cloud says, "What makes a vehicle go faster is more money, not more voltage", I
couldn't
disagree more. What makes and EV quicker and faster, is years of dedication,
long hours of
often back-breaking labor, and most important of all, creativity!
As to those throwing stones at sponsorship, then claiming it was money that
made the EV
successful, I say rubbish. That word 'creativity' comes back into play. You
have to be
creative to come up with a vehicle and concept that catches the attention of
battery
manufactures, motor manufactures, or controller-charger builders. I believe
that anyone
can get sponsorship for their EV, but it certainly won't just get handed to
you. You have
to be unique in some regard (merely having a powerful and quick electric
vehicle can not fill
this requirement), you have to put pride and integrity into the vehicle to make
it
something a sponsor would feel good about having their name and products
associated with,
and then, well...you have to deliver! When I hear the whining about how money
makes you go
faster, it's a slap in the face to those who may have worked years building
relationships,
years struggling on a shoestring budget, and through persistence and sweat
equity have
finally get some batteries thrown their way, or a special deal on a controller,
or a
charger, or what ever.
It's also irritating when the same people who want to change rules so that
individuals can
'win', are often the same ones who are secretive about their designs, secretive
about what
worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and doing
that. The
racers that share what they are doing, and report both failures and successes
to any EVer
interested, are often the same ones who have battery sponsorship or help from
controller
designers....it's kind of a 'what comes around, goes around' thing. Sure, each
race season
we all taunt each other and toss around 'secret weapon' teases and keep 'some'
things
under wrap, maybe for a whole week or two, but this is all in the name of
having fun. Go
to any racing EVent though, and you'll see these same racers popping the hood
to show
anyone what's under there...glad to share their ideas so others can come race,
too.
As to voltage classes not being effective, the proof is in the results. To Dave
Cloud, I
simply say, show up with a steel bodied street legal car, one that isn't
mutilated and
totally dysfunctional, run it at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave, bring
it on!
Lastly, I mean no offense to Dave or others. Dave and I have known each other
for many
years now. It took a while for the two of us to connect, as we approach EVs
from entirely
different angles. I enjoy talking with him, and I am amazed at his creativity
when it
comes to a bare bones approach. He's a very competitive guy, and he knows how
to win
races, I'm just not sure if he knows what NEDRA is really all about.
See Ya.......John Wayland
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it's a LEMCO not an Etek ! it can even go upper 600A few seconds
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 12:20 AM
Subject: RE: Aftermarket Hybrid electric system
> Jay Brown noted:
>
> > The electric motors in the pictures sure look like a Lemco and an
> > Etek...
>
> Yeah, sure does, and I'm impressed that they're pushing the ETEK envelope
in
> the writeup: "provides up to 600amps at 48v"....i.e. an extra 38HP for
> acceleration.
> Maybe people don't realize it but while the ETEK is spec'd at a max.
150amps
> or so continuous and 330amps for short intervals, it's short circuit
current
> at 48v is over 1000amps---though the brushes might just weld themselves to
> the commutator if you tried this for more than a split sec...
>
> I like their belt drive arrangement.
> That's what I'd like to see my buddy Dave do on his steamboat---ditch the
> extra steam engine and rig up a PM motor like an Etek to each of his prop
> shafts with a bodacious belt drive---could be a hybrid steam/electric,
steam
> w/electric recharging, or, disconnecting the steam engines altogether,
pure
> electric. He'd finally want to invest in real batteries....
>
> -MT
>
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Hi All,
I want to enter a desulfator of a lightbulb and
a bridge rect from 120vac and want to know the best
way to do it. How long and when to stop?
I was thinking connect it up with 1 wt/amphr
lightbulb and run it until the voltage reached 18vdc
per 12vdc nom batt. Would this be the way?
Batts would be charged to start with.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> I bit the bullet and bought a Midtronics Midtron
> 2600 battery
> test/analyzer for the upcoming test of pulsers in
Can this unit actually test for sulfation levels
accurately?
He'll use it on old, selected for sulfation,
weeding out shorted, corroded batts then use various
desulfators, with 3 batts per desulfator, mostly pulse
ones and then test again to see if they did the job.
Does this sound like it will work well?
> March-June 05.
> This analyzer accurately tests the conductance of
> battery plates
> regardless of the charge state. This is a quantum
> leap over standard
> battery "load testers" (although 50 and 100 amp load
> tester will
> still be used, to provide additional "real world"
> working results).
>
> I had some commercial hi-freq pulser manufactuers
> shy away from
> entering their devices for fear that the results
> would not be
> accurate using load testers. After all, using a load
> tester and
> getting "real world" results is part skill, as well
> as science. Since
> I can now accurately measure the amount of lead
> sulfate removal with
> results that can be verified and repeated, I now
> feel that the public
> will get a true picture of battery desulfation, and
> how different
> desulation devices measure up. It's just a
> beginning, but a necessary
> step, because batteries are so much a part of our
> efforts in wind and
> solar power generation. Saving the environment from
> unnecessary
> recycling of batteries, plus advoiding the big dent
> in our budgets
> that AE storage batteries cost us, is a worthy
> effort. If that's not
> important enough, think of all of the auto batteries
> that get dumped
> every year. If we can prevent only a minute part of
> that, it's well
> worth it.
>
> You can bet your bottom dollar that most battery
> manufacturers
> already know those results, but it is not in their
> best interests to
> let you, the customer, know about it. This is
> because these results
> could jeopardise millions of dollars of future sales
> thru unnecessary
> battery replacement. AND you can bet you biffy, it
> does happen all
> the time.
>
> Regardless, I'm going to conduct these tests in a
> fair and objective
> scientific manner, and publish these results, for
> better or worse.
>
> The truth is out there...If you look for it with a
> clear and unjaded
> eye.
>
> Don in Tulsa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
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I was just wondering how common a practice it is to remove the universal
joint from an existing drive train (transmission or other reduction
gearing, axle, joint, rear differential, wheels), and hard-mount the
tranmission and motor to the differential housing?... (I vaugely recall
reading about that before on the list, but can't remember details)
these one-piece drive units could be mass-assembled in batches from
varieties of scrounged/donated/purchased components pretty efficiently...
I'm guessing that, logically, the controller electronics should be
included in this drive unit assembly
use these drive units in conversions or, for more "ground-up" EVs,
load-bearing assemblies - including non-drive wheels (if any), steering
mechanism (if any), suspention (if any), frame, rigging (if any),
passenger containment (if any), power bus/batt. pack/charger - could then
be built from standardized/available parts to fit individual drive units
and operational requirements...
...something to keep in mind for the previously discussed non-profit
neighborhood public access EV shops, where anyone can take courses to
learn (and then practice) EV construction/conversion in a practical
environment... each course would complete the entire construction cycle
(scrounging, prep, design, assembly test, certification) of a small fleet
of EVs for distribution and sale... give people who complete each course
preference (and significant discount) on purchasing vehicles from the
fleets they've built... also allow people to bring their own parts to
build up their personalized EV as one of the fleet...
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