EV Digest 4175
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Grizzly help needed please
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Rewinding 3 phase AC motors
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Spoon feeding BB600's.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BB600 A/A charging
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NiCds in Europe (was: BB600...)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Nicad Disposal Options
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EVCC
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Atv conversion
by "James A. Eckman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: BB600 Purchase
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: BB600 A/A charging
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I just got an Auburn Giizzly controller to replace the smokeless curtis
(which replaced the smokeless cableform the car came with) on my Elektrikar II.
I got the manuaul with it, but no low voltage connector. The pinouts are not
listed in the manual.
I bought a new connector, a 9 pin twist lock deal, it looks like this
o o o
o o
o o
Can anyone tell me what color wire goes where?
My students and I have put in alot of hours on this thing and we are all
anxious to get it on the road.
Thanks a million in advance,
Ben Hazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Both Rudman and the Alltrax folks felt the only event that
> would cause the input fuse to blow was repeated high inrush
> currents. For example: switching the DC/DC off the ignition
> or a bad/loose HV wire to the unit. The DC/DC has an inrush
> limiter, but it appears to be a small thermal device.
The problem with such inrush limiters is that they only limit the inrush
when they are cold; once the converter is running, if the inrush limiter
remains in circuit (as they usually do), then it will be hot and low
resistance and will therefore not limit the inrush current effectively
if battery or capacitor voltages change rapidly.
This may be a clue as to why the fuse may be more prone to blowing in
installations where the DC/DC is wired to remain on continuously. The
inrush limiter will be hot when the car is turned on (and the DC/DC
output level raised from the float value), so it will not protect
against current transients when 'starting' the EV.
How is the DC/DC input power connection made to the pack? Are any other
devices connected to this same lead (e.g. the controller precharge)? If
the lead is relatively long and relatively light guage, and the
controller precharge is connected to the pack via the same lead, then
the voltage at the DC/DC input could sag (relatively) significantly when
the EV is 'started' due to the controller precharge current. If the
fuse is already warm and the inrush limiter is ineffective due to being
hot, the resulting surge current might push it over the edge. The
difference between a Zilla and DCP controller might just be that the
Zilla precharges a bit more agressively (either a higher peak current,
or sustaining a higher current longer). I think Otmar mentioned that he
has gone to a constant current type precharge circuit, but the DCP
controllers use a straightforward precharge resistor, which the Raptor
manual says can result in a peak current of ~12A (but this current spike
will be brief and the current will drop off rapidly).
Fuses are thermal devices and will blow based on temperature, which does
not necessarily mean current. The fuse must be derated when
installed/operated in a high ambient temperature location, but many
designers overlook this detail. I gather that Nick's DC/DC tended to
run hot as it was a bit under-sized for his 12V system loads, so perhaps
the fuse ambient was high enough that its rating was marginal and so it
was susceptible to even modest current transients? Note that if the
fuse is in an enclosed holder its ambient temperature will be higher
(sometimes significantly higher) than ambient outside the holder since
the current carried by the fuse causes it to heat up.
I forget where Nick is, but Mark is in Texas, so I would not be
surprised if his DC/DC is operating in higher ambients than it would in
WA, or say, on DCP's test bench in OR.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My intention is to use between 60v and 120v of them in a Honda Helix
scooter with an E-tek, Lemco or perhaps even an ADC 6.7".
Depending on how Gadget can do with the shipping, I might even go
to a higher voltage and a light car, though I think 60v (50 cells) or 72v
(60 cells) is about as much as I want to water on a regular basis. :-)
Tim
--------
> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:56:53 -0800
> From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
>
> I'm rather interested in electric motorcycles. Seems just 100 of these
> would make a nice 120V system @34 Ah, and 350 Lbs.
>
> Not bad for a bike, I think -- any thoughts?
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
correct url
> These aircraft starting cells are used in 24V boxes configuration like this
> one
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/ApriliaEproject001.jpg
>
> there is no need to central watering system with 20 cells and probably it
> would be to complexe to make it "military" proof.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
> If our theory is correct, then you will likely have problems. Having
> two converters may help by reducing the load on each, but your high
> current draw will likely cause significant voltage swings.
>
> This is just a theory based on very little information (only two
> data points). I wouldn't worry about it yet.
>
> I am going to try hooking up a large filter capacitor to the input
> terminals of the DC/DC and see if that alleviates the issue any. If it
> does it help it would tend to prove the theory.
Try putting your multimeter in series with this capacitor, and set it to
measure AC current. Now try driving your EV while keeping an eye on the
meter. See what the maximum AC current you get is.
If our theory is correct, there could be more AC current than DC
current, and that is what is blowing the fuses.
> There is nothing you can do about it short of buying a different
> DC/DC, and there are none to choose from.
No; once we know if this is the problem or not, we can work out a
solution. For instance, Otmar's idea of adding a series inductor would
help. If the DCP DC/DCs don't already have an input series diode, adding
one would also help (though I'll bet they already have one).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Barber wrote:
>This translates to a peak achievable hp of 513 at the motor shaft.
Now we're talking! :)
>Assuming 85% efficiency, this reduces to 436 hp.
Still a nice number...
Get that motor rewound and go for it!
By the way, which inverter are you going to use with it? What model
motor is this anyways?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe, got a 404 on that one.
Philippe Borges wrote:
These aircraft starting cells are used in 24V boxes configuration like this
one
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/ApriliaEproject001.jpg
there is no need to central watering system with 20 cells and probably it
would be to complexe to make it "military" proof.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
I don't know what the voltage is on an aircraft, but
I'm guessing they use enough cells to use some type of
automated refill method.
There should be a watering method already available
for these, we just need to find a knowledigle source
associated with their maintence.
Anybody know an aeronautical engineer or technician?
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> At this time it is all speculation. Any more real data points would
> be most welcome.
What if Nick sent you his DCP DC-DC for you too look at and/or study?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:27 PM -0800 3-10-05, Lee Hart wrote:
> My whole purpose in the original post was to keep Ben from doing
something that would not be satisfactory and might well damage his
motor, when the solution is so simple: Buy the correct end bell.
That is of course the best answer. It would be as strong as this type of
mount is likely to get. I'm just worried that it still may not be strong
enough.
At first I also worried about the end bell strength in my 914 when I
first put it in, and yet never had any trouble as my previous post on
this subject explains.
Also, something to think about on the 914 motor mount design; the
lever arm is over 2' from the axle, so the force on the end of the
motor is not very high. Heck, it's held by two 8mm bolts that are
bonded to 2" diameter rubber pieces under tension. I believe there is
less than 800 lbs of lift on a typical EA conversion and that it easy
for the end bell to take.
I'm curious, in all the crazy and weak motor mounting systems that
people have done, has anyone seen a ADC end bell crack from the load
on it? I haven't seen one yet myself.
I did break one end bell once, that was on a golf car and it was
broken by the commutator when it flew apart at over 8000 RPM, not the
mounting. There really wasn't much left of the end bell. :-) I can't
fault the design for that. :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
I used a DCP dc/dc with a DCP T-Rex 1000 for a while, until the no
longer supported T-Rex blew up. The internal dc/dc fuse never blew (I
never even looked inside to know it had one), but my external 10-amp
fast-acting "semiconductor" fuse did blow several times... I think
twice in nasty weather so headlights, wipers, fan for heater, etc. all
running and once before/while stuck in traffic on a warm sunny day. I
had wondered about why, but it wasn't frequent enough to motivate me
to keep thinking about it.
The other possibility is that both Nick and I have late serial number
units. Perhaps some manufacturing change late in the DC/DC production
run is contributing?
As another interesting point: I checked my notes, and I was having much
more frequent fuse failures during the time that my Zilla was frequently
doing panic shutdowns. (Traced to a bad Cat 5 cable between Zilla and
hairball interrupting communications)
Anyhow, I will be very interested to hear if Rudman has only problems
after installing his Zilla.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was warned strongly not to fool with a watering system. These cells are
under pressure while charging. I am going with a smaller pack. Limiting
myself to one 120v string. I can deal with 100 cells. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: Spoon feeding BB600's.
Carl Clifford wrote:
Hi All,
I've been debating picking up some of these BB-600's but can't quite get
my head around the big picture on these batteries. I've been a lurker on
the list for years but never having "done it", my head is just full of
variables. If anyone can ballpark any of the following, or give me an
educated guess, I would appreciate it.
I think a lot of us are in this boat; we're trying to figure out if/how
these will work. The big advantage is there are a *lot* of them, they put
out a lot of specific power (ok I admit it; I'm addicted to my AGM
Hawkers) and they will last forever. Their footprint seems to match the
T105 in terms of capacity at EV rates and weight and they might be able to
handle 200-300amp discharges for a length of time.
The downside is they need a watering system and one will have to parallel
them. Can these problems be solved? Maybe. But what interests me is this
is a project with 10,000 of these batteries with more on the way (courtesy
of Uncle Sugar... I mean Sam). The price is right where we could spend an
additional $5.00 a battery to figure out a watering cap; even at that
price, $6 bucks a cell means $1,200 for 200 of them (giving a 120 volt
pack with 70ah capacity. That's equal to a T105 pack esp when you consider
you can run these down to zero without destruction, etc). I'd pay $1,200
for a pack that would last for 50k miles and work well in the winter.
The Saft cap might be an example. Maybe we can build a prototype for one
that fits the 600 then make them in China or something. For 50 batteries
that would never pay. But how about an order for 10,000 of them?
And yaknow, they might be a total waste. In which case a lot of ham radio
operators will squeal with joy as these get sold at hamfests. I'm willing
to take the risk (and deal with my wife wondering why I have 3,000lbs of
batteries in the yard) to find out.
I'm willing to seriously experiment with this. I'm planning on putting a
bunch into my Elec-trak and then another batch into a simple EV. I'd love
to put them in my Prizm, but I'm not sure if they will fit. Maybe they
will somehow.
Perhaps we should set up a seperate list (bb600) to handle this? I'd be
willing to host it on alembic.crystel.com (my personal Unix systems)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All the parts are available. Plastic waterer and the plastic wrench. They
are not watered automatically or do they recommend to do so. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
I don't know what the voltage is on an aircraft, but
I'm guessing they use enough cells to use some type of
automated refill method.
There should be a watering method already available
for these, we just need to find a knowledigle source
associated with their maintence.
Anybody know an aeronautical engineer or technician?
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too am slightly concerned about strength, since I will be using a DCP
T-Rex 1000 and a pack of Optima YT's in my car, instead of the Curtis
and floodies in the Electro Automotive kit.
However, I expect the stock 914 rubber mounts would tear long before
the end bell on the motor, especially after seeing Otmar's post, and
they're cheap and very easy to replace. If I break something I can
worry about making it stronger -- for now, I just *really* want to get
this thing on the road, and I'm going to be using a low-power test pack
with the current limit set at 400A for now anyway.
So I'm going to get some holes drilled and give it a go! Thank you all
for your help! Your replies have been excellent!
-Ben
On Mar 10, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Mike Brown wrote:
We have dozens of these mounts in use in our Voltsporsche Kit.
No failures.
That's good! Any idea how high-powered the controllers are, or how much
these cars get driven?
I *have* a Renault LeCar EV. It has a wimpy little ADC 6.7" motor,
and a Curtis 1231C controller turned down to 400 amps max. Yet,
I *did* break the motor mount! It is a clamshell mount...
Ok, this is a welded aluminum clamshell mount, which bears no
resemblance to a welded steel mount bolted to the end of the motor
Agreed. However, it is the best example I have. Understand that this
mount was made for John Wayland at Ecar, and that it worked for Dick
Finley's and Lou Tauber's LeCars, which were considerably higher
powered
than mine. It looks plenty strong. In fact, on occasion I have picked
up
the entire front end of the car with this mount. That means it can
handle at least 1000 lbs of force.
And yet, it broke. This implies that the force on it was a lot more
than
a mere 1000 lbs. And when I looked closer at the design, I can see how
the forces got so large. My guess is that if I tried mounting the motor
in this car by the end bell, I would have broken that instead.
Quite likely, the welds were not adequate, which can be a problem
unless you have an experienced aluminum welder.
Possible; but it didn't just break the welds. It also twisted the metal
in a way that implies that an extremely large downward force was
applied.
As for the the strength of the ADC end bell itself, that was
designed in conjunction with the then-owners of ADC, who were
career motor engineers themselves and would certainly know the
power their motor could put out.
Agreed. It would be rational for them to make it strong enough to
handle
all the force the motor itself could produce. But in this case (Porsche
914, Renault LeCar, Chevy Corvair), it has to handle many times more
torque due to the torque multiplication of the transmission and
differential.
I also have a 1965 Corvair with the turbocharged 180hp engine.
In my younger more-foolish days, I *did* rip out the motor
mount from the huge wheel reaction torque.
It was also a common problem on a 40 hp NSU Prinz. But what does
that have to do with an entirely different mount design in an
entirely different vehicle?
Because it illustrates the same principle. The Corvair engine mount
originally had a single 3/8" bolt. It would pull this bolt's head right
through the mounting plate -- an indication of many thousands of pounds
of force. They learned, and changed the design to double the thickness
of the plate and use two bolts.
My whole purpose in the original post was to keep Ben from doing
something that would not be satisfactory and might well damage his
motor, when the solution is so simple: Buy the correct end bell.
That is of course the best answer. It would be as strong as this type
of
mount is likely to get. I'm just worried that it still may not be
strong
enough.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got this from a Marathon technician:
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on your
hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are manufactured to
perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
battery systems - these are not in that category.
The rate at which the conversions take place is primarily determined by the
external resistance (load)
introduced into the circuit in which the cell is connected. Due to its
construction, the Marathon cell has an
extremely low internal resistance, and its ability to deliver high currents
is due to this factor.
1.14 Liquid level - Do not add water to a battery except near the end of a
constant
current charge. Some exceptions may be noted later.
Addition of water, except at the proper time during the charge will cause
spewing of electrolyte to take
place during the subsequent charge. Marathon batteries are shipped with the
proper amounts of
electrolyte. When a battery has been discharged or allowed to stand for a
long period of time, the
electrolyte becomes absorbed into the plates. Since the battery has been
shipped in a discharged
condition, the liquid level of the cells may appear to be low. Charging the
battery will cause the liquid
level of the individual cells to rise to the proper operating level. If this
does not happen, add sufficient
distilled or demineralized water (using the proper syringe and nozzle) to
the cells during the last 15
minutes of the topping charge, until the correct liquid level is reached.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sorry for mistake,
thx :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
>
> correct url
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OIC, humm I guess my understanding of Puckert was wrong.
I thought that it defined a loss due to high rates.
> > http://www.ee.ncue.edu.tw/note/data/o/21/91.pdf
From what I read in this pdf Puckert is nothing more than
a formula devised to help determine SOC of a battery that
is subject to various rates throught a cycle, ie: in an EV.
( instead of the static rates at which they are generally rated )
Let's see if I've got it right now...
Current Lithium with it's low 2C max rate does have varing
capacity depending on the rate, so (a new) Puckert exponent
can be applied to determin SOC more accurately.
So, Li does have a Puckert exponent, though it's not as evident
because Li tends to have a much lower C rating than PbA does.
But if we get our hands on some of these 20C rated Lithium cells
then it will most likely become much more apparent.
So, I'm currently running a 12Ah scooter pack, peaking to 4C,
and crusing arround 1C. So I get the 1C capacity from them.
If I get a single string of the high rate cells at 2.5Ah and
can peak them to their 20C rate, crusing at 5C I'll get range
at their 5C rate, which will be less than their 1C rate. At
this point the Puckert exponent will become much more apparent.
So, can we determine a Puckert exponent from these measurements?
"0.1C 940mAh (89.5%) 1.26 A ( low rate test, 89.5% of nameplate )
"1.0C 836mAh (86%) 12.6 A ( this is ~the scooters cruse rate )
"2.0C 749mAh (71%) 25.2 A ( this is TestCell#1's testing rate )
"2.5C 659mAh (63%) 31.5 A ( scooter actually peaks higher @4C )
There would be various Puckert exponent for each chemestry type, no?
So, it will be different for these Lap/Cell/T-Zero'ish cells,
TS cells, Li-Poly cells, and the new 20C Li-ion cells.
L8r
Ryan
Lee Hart wrote:
Lightning Ryan wrote:
I was under the impression that at high rates PbA will only deliver
a fraction of it's lower rate nameplate capacity. After such a
high rate discharge you can't lower the rate and get the other half
of its capacity out because it's lost due to Puckerts.
Ah, but you CAN! Suppose a lead-acid battery delivers 100ah at the
20-hour rate. And at the 1-hour rate, it only delivers 50ah. This is the
point where the voltage under load has fallen to 1.75v/cell.
But... now connect a load resistor that will take 19 more hours to reach
a total of 100ah. You'll find that the battery will happily deliver
(almost) this many amphours. Now it will fall to 1.75v/cell under load
at around 95 amphours total.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I'm sure it's because of the cadmium. Not the cadmium
itself, but neglecting consequences of improper use/recycle of it.
As David once mentioned, most people throw dead AA NiCds away without
thinking twice - who is going to frive to a special recycling place
just for two AA's? That's where currently major pollution comes from.
Add large wet NiCd to the equasion, the same people will do the same
thing unless motivated to recycle by high refund money.
I don't know what is the cost of cadmium is but doubt this is major
reason for banning it.
Again, Euro listers will know more about it.
Victor
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Are you sure it's because of the Cadmium.
Cadmium is no less common, nor more harmful than lead or mercury. It's a
naturally occuring mineral and is found literally everywhere.
Yes, Disposal can be a hassle, but it's not dangerous as long as it stays
inside the battery.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts5.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the link Philippe.
So Peugeot is allowed to keep making '106 with NiCd batteries no
problem? I've heard they are *obligated* to find alternative.
The sam with Saxo?
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
true for cadmium which is definitely crap (though quantities are low on our
hobbyist's hands)
about nicad prohibition european law:
nicad batteries use is prohibited in europe since 2004 except for power tool
and industrial application batteries.
For power tools the law will be voted again in 2008.
For industrial batteries, which include electric vehicle ones, no
prohibition !
you will find the whole text here:
http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/envir/83236.pdf
So they still are the best choice for EV batteries at the moment (imho) but
don't forget nicad batteries must'nt be through away, they have to be
recycled !!!
The actual li-ion are to dangerous in EV use so i'm negociating to test new
Saft NIMH modules: 12V100Ah/C1 for 18kg and...no watering :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
With all this talk about NiCds, may be people know, but I wanted
to mention that their use in OEM EVs has been banned in Europe for
environmental reasons. Recycling or no recycling no OEM will
be allowed to sell and EV with NiCd battery in it beginning of this
year. Of course, this is because cadmium is nastier stuff than even
gasoline.
US enthusiasts perhaps couldn't care less what is going on in
European OEMs, but I don't think they (OEMs) would impose
such a hardship on themselves (many EVs already manufactured
cannot be sold since NiCd is no longer legal) without good reason.
If you do get to use BB600 or whatever, just remember it contains
poison and please them as such.
Perhaps Philippe or Jukka can comment on this situation better.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Tim Clevenger wrote:
Hi Gadget,
That works for me. That also takes the pressure off, since if
I picked them up in NorCal, I'd be hand-loading them into
a rented pickup. :-)
I'm not sure how many I'm getting. At least 70, possibly 140.
Tim
---------
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let
me know how many are coming to LA and can get quote.
I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a
cell. weekend pick up is no problem as I live in my
warehouse. I can even store them for a little while if
that helps anyone.
Gadget
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Dear fellow Nicad-loving listers,
When not playing EV'er, my day job involves finding proper homes for all sorts
of garbage, so I wanted to make sure that we all know what to do when these
NiCd cells eventually die, because the cadmium that they contain is hazardous
when released into the environment, and should never go to an incinerator or
regular solid waste landfill. Unlike lead acid batteries, the nicads do not
have a positive scrap value, and there is only one facility in the country that
I know of as the ultimate consumer of these cells; the International Metals
Reclamation Company (INMETCO) in Ellwood City, Pennsylvania.
http://www.inmetco.com/
I spoke with their rep this morning, and INMETCO will accept shipments of dead
flooded Nicads directly from individuals. The cost for recycling is $0.45 per
pound. The nickel, cadmium, and any steel components are all recovered. The
cadmium can go back into batteries and cadmium-based pigments, and the nickel
and steel winds up in stainless steel manufacture. Plastic battery casings are
commonly recycled into the common black polypropylene lead acid battery
casings, but I'm not sure if this is 'the case' with INMETCO.
Shipments can go direct, FOB INMETCO, or to one of their three consolidation
points, 1) Wade Environmental Industries, Battery Division, Atco, New Jersey;
2) U.S. Filter Recovery Services, Inc., Roseville, Minnesota; and 3) Kinsbursky
Brothers Supply, Inc., Anaheim, California. From these consolidation points the
batteries are shipped to INMETCO.
Shipping costs should not be any more than we're paying to get the cells in the
first place, because under the EPA's Universal Waste Rule, batteries destined
for recycling are not subject to most hazardous waste transportation
regulations.
When you have NiCd cells to dispose of, please contact one of the consolidators
or INMETCO directly. INMETCO requires advance approval for inbound shipments
and self-delivery, but they will accept prepayment over the phone via credit
card to simplify the transaction for individuals.
I'm still awaiting a response from SAFT, since they also have a recycling
office. Contact info there is as follows: ... Saft America Inc., 711
Industrial Boulevard PO Box 1886 Valdosta Georgia 31601 Tel : (229) 247-2331
Good Luck!
Jay Donnaway
Sr. Solid Waste Policy Analyst
Oregon Dept of Environmental Quality
Land Quality Division
811 SW Sixth Avenue
Portland, OR 97204-1390
(503)229-6046
Fax: 229-6977
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.deq.state.or.us
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Who is Puckert? Whas his nick name Puke?
Victor
Lightning Ryan wrote:
OIC, humm I guess my understanding of Puckert was wrong.
I thought that it defined a loss due to high rates.
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mike golub said:
why would someone collect all this valuable
information and then pass away with it?
Was Larry a one man show?
I missed this when it was posted last week.
Larry Foster/EVCC was a one man operation. Larry had a lifetime of high
precision machining experience and formed EVCC as a retirement
business. He ran the business out of a shed behind his home in Eddy,
Texas. The adapters were sold mostly thru KTA Services and EVA.
Over the years Larry collected a file cabinet full of transmission
measurements, and an extensive cross reference of which vehicles each
fit. About four years ago I took my MR2 transmission to be measured for
an adapter. Larry's health became such that he was unable to build
adapters, and after a few months he called me to pick up the
transmission unmeasured.
When I picked up the adapter he informed me that the business was
closing and he was looking for someone else to take over. At the time I
didn't have much money and was mostly interested in releasing the
adapter designs to the public. Larry, mindful of the value of the plans
instead wanted me to continue EVCC in return for a precentage of the
profits. I did not have any machining skills and could not find a
partner interested in doing the machining. I visited about three more
times, while he explained some of the ins and out of his choices for
building adapters. The last visit was about a week before his death
when he provided some advice on my first adapter.
I was not close enough to the family, and no one notified me of his
passing. A month later when I called I got only a number disconnected
message. About 3 months later I drove to Eddy and stopped at the
house. The son (Frank) informed me that the family had cleaned out the
shop and all the contents were destroyed.
The story should end there. I later found out that Ken at KTA Services
had been told by Larry that I was taking over the business (I didn't
think we had ever reached an agreement), and that the family was fully
aware of the value of the documentation (estimated as greater than
$30,000). So I can not imagine why the documentation would have been
destroyed.
I have not had any success in reaching any other members of the family,
and I assume that all of EVCC's data is lost to the community.
Mark Farver
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How much are we talking?
Mike G.
Seth Allen wrote:
I think Otmar still hosts the excel plot of the discharge test I did
of the GE equivalent of these SAFT cells, FWIW.
Seth
P.S. you guys want to have a group buy on cell interconnects, now that
you can order them in the thousands.
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Otmar wrote:
At this time it is all speculation. Any more real data points would
be most welcome.
What if Nick sent you his DCP DC-DC for you too look at and/or study?
I was just discussing that with him off list.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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Hi,
First I'd like to again thank everyone for their input on this DC/DC
problem. Much appreciated! I'm going to respond to several people in
this e-mail...
> Mark Hanson wrote:
> Mine also was popped the input fuse prior to zorching. I made the
> mistake of running it ALL the time which grows and electrolysis effect
> across the board
I was running mine all the time as well. This was supposed to be one of
the features of the DCP unit. In fact, I recall hearing that switching
the DCP DC/DC converters main input off and on a lot is bad for them. As
for the electrolysis effect, well, that was not a problem on my DC/DC
> Mark Farver wrote:
> It would also explain why Nick with sagging pack of floodeds blows the
> fuse more often than I do with my stiffer pack of Optimas
As far as I know, I was *NOT* blowing the fuse because of low input
voltage. Rather, the fuse was blowing when the controller would power up
or shortly thereafter. The last time the fuse blew (the time when my
DC/DC zorched and DIED), I was not even driving the Jeep, it was in my
garage.
> Otmar wrote:
> a inductor could be added to the power line to the DCP to see if it
> resolves the problem. (snip) An easy way to verify this would be to
> turn the Zilla down to the power level of other controllers and see if
> the fuse takes stops blowing. This of course is not helpful to Nick
> who's controller is no longer functioning,
Yeah, unfortunately I can't do these tests as my DC/DC is just dead.
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> But the "Green Fuzz" issue may violate this feature.
> Funny that both Fails are in Texas....
Once again, mine has no "green fuzz" And yes, my DC/DC seemed miserable
without a fan. I added a powerful 80mm fan to the bottom of it a couple
months ago, and it had run *much* cooler since then. IMO, the fan should
have been built-in.
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> How is the DC/DC input power connection made to the pack? Are any
> other devices connected to this same lead (e.g. the controller
> precharge)?
The positive contactor is mounted about 8" from the DC/DC converter.
both the Zilla Hairball B+ input and the DC/DC HV+ input connect to the
"always on" side of the positive contactor. However, they connect
through SEPARATE wires and fuses. The Hairball B+ wire is 18AWG, the
DC/DC HV+ wire is 14 AWG and about 1 foot long. The HV- wire of the
DC/DC converter connects to the "always on" side of the negative
contactor, which is in the trunk of the Jeep. It connects to this
contactor through a 10AWG wire which is about 10 feet long.
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> I forget where Nick is, but Mark is in Texas so I would not be
> surprised if his DC/DC is operating in higher ambients than it would
> in WA, or say, on DCP's test bench in OR.
I live in San Antonio, Texas. About an hour south of Austin. Yes, it is
hot down here. If the DCP DC/DC was designed in Texas, I'm sure it
would've come with a fan built-in...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Has anyone on the list had experience with an ATV conversion--ICE to electric?
I hope to locate a well used chain drive 2WD around 200-250CC.
Weight with ICE should be about 400 lbs. Hopefully the machine would have a
bad motor and /or tran. Speed is not an issue but some hill climbing ability
would be.
Would appreciate hearing from anyone with experience or links about this type
conversion.
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I will be driving from Pittsburgh would that help?
Mike G.
Rod Hower wrote:
I just bought 250 cells and will either pick them up
in NY or have them shipped. If there is anybody else
near Akron, OH that is buying some let me know and
we can arrange combining the shipment.
Thanks,
Rod
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For those of you that can't get through, or those
that are interested and
haven't paid yet....
I have set up a quick and dirty ebay listing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3880658968
search BB600 if the link doesn't work.
You can use this to reserve and pay for the number
of cells you desire.
After all of the orders are in, then we will figure
out the best way to
ship them.
There are quite a few people that have expressed
interest and are only
about 100 miles from each other, and obviously can
save quite a bit on
shipping costs by combining pallets. Each person
will have the final say
in how their order is to be shipped, but I will be
able to suggest
"partners".
For those that planned to pay via my e-mail
instructions, it will save me
a few cents by not using ebay, but ebay will provide
a nice "database"
feature for me too, so I guess it's a wash. Use what
you're comfortable
with.
I hope I've been able to reply to everyones
questions. If not, hit me
again please.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you
are right!" --Henry Ford
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I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on
your
hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are
manufactured to
perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
battery systems - these are not in that category.
I am starting to seriously drool here.
Chris
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