EV Digest 4188
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Warning sound for approaching EV
by cristin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005 OT: Snow White
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Renualt LeCar
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: PowerPoint EV Presentation Updaet
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: dc-dc converter,5-40V, 5A control
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: PowerPoint EV Presentation Updaet/1.79 comment
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: How fast can you do a conversion?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: PowerPoint EV Presentation Update/Selling it
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV-1 Vigil
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ProEV wins first Autocross of 2005
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV prices, 2 motors ,, Eonomics of EV's was Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses
help the ego.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How fast can you do a conversion
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) SAFT battery company -- does anyone have a USA contact?
by "Steve Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Picking an EV to build, sell profitably, Re: How fast can you do a
conversion?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Personally, I'd love to have a little noisemaker that plays the sound
from all of The Jetson's flying cars. one that rises in pitch and
volume with speed :)
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang has some lovely noises that could be sampled as
well.
On Mar 3, 2005, at 12:17 AM, djsharpe wrote:
A vehicle inspector warned that my EV (Diahatsu Charade) poses a risk
to
pedestrians cyclists because it is too quite. It needs according to him
a continuous sound. I seek comments from other EV or hybrid users.
Perhaps we could amplify the sound the brush gear makes or replicate
the
horn of a main line loco. What do you think?
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:40 AM -0500 3-15-05, ProEV wrote:
I've done some EV autocross myself and have always done fairly
well. Snowhite was wicked fast and they put us in the A mod class.
Here's a pic from a race at Candlestick park years ago.
http://cafeelectric.com/Snowhite1.jpg
Is there more information out about this car? Google and Copernic
don't led me to much. What batteries, motor, controller, weight? How
many times did the car compete? Useful lessons about EVs and
autocross?
There's not that much out there since it was made in the early 90's
before the internet was so big.
Snowhite was a simple square tube frame car made by Bob Schneeveis
and some helpers. The Orangeboard body was made by Dave Cloud. It was
originally built to run in the Phoenix 500 races until closed wheel
cars were banned from that class.
The latest configuration was 20 red top Optimas in series at 240V,
mounted in a novel arrangement that allowed changing all 800 lbs of
them in 12 seconds during a race. The battery connections are made by
"flashlight" style terminals built into the battery door, very quick,
very safe. It runs one 8" ADC motor per rear wheel driven through
Gates Polychain GT belts through about a 3.5 to 1 reduction. It has
had three controller arrangements. First it ran with two Curtis 1221s
at 120V each. Then in '93 it got the first car controller I ever
built, the 1000A 240V 1/4 Meg #1. Sometime around 1996 it got one of
the first Zilla controllers, back when 1200 amps was considered a
insane amount of current. It has a series parallel switch for the
motors that is manually operated. The 12" wide rear slicks limit the
motor current at about 700 amps due to traction limit up to about 40
mph. Top speed is over 110 mph, but we don't really know. I don't
think it even had a speedometer. Weight is about 1700 lbs with
batteries. Quite a fun car.
Part of the goal of ProEV doing autocross is to prepare the car and
driver for closed circuit road racing. Recapturing energy is an
important part of our strategy. So the driver better get his mind
around braking with both feet<G>. Better to make mistakes with cones
than with tirewalls.
Ah yes, now I understand. Sounds good.
Btw, in my Honda Insight, regen is cancelled anytime ABS is
activated. I thought it was an interesting way of dealing with some
of the regen safety issues.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiousity, how much horsepower can your twin 8's
manage and at what RPMs? Any estimate if there's no hard
data?
That car is mean. It's had to have bruised many egos before.
I'm sure it got the Mustang guy to at least think some.
Crude oil prices just hit a new record today, $56.30 a
barrel for futures. And still rising. $3 a gallon gas this
summer seems inevitable, and many negative consequences
arise from its continued use. Articles mentioning
$200/barrel at the end of next year, and the world perhaps
hitting peak production November this year(In the event we
haven't already). We'll see what happens. Worst case
scenario: you'll be sitting pretty with your high
performance EV while everyone else pays out the ass for fuel
and starts clamoring to buy econocrap that still uses an
archaic fuel. :-)
Just think of the possibilities with some Li Ions in that
thing. Give it a 300 pound weight reduction on the battery
side of things, and give it some more reduction on the body,
and you may be pulling 12s with about a 2,500 pound EV.
Drive to the track, race all day, drive home, all on one
charge. Of course, that would cost a lot of money right now,
what with no mass production for the parts/batteries and
all.
Ever find out what's been eating into your efficiency? Given
Blue Meanie has a much smaller pack and more range, it
appears as if this car should have no problem attaining the
45 mile goal you stated on your website. But then again, it
may just be your lead foot skewing your range or perhaps the
Orbitals have a sizable penalty in max deliverable capacity
compared to Optimas when it comes to low discharge rates.
Whatever problems you have now, I could learn from. I may
encounter a problem like this with my car given it is an old
chassis. Almost a given. And if I want to make an attempt at
good range, I'll have to correct such a problem should it
arise. In the meantime, I'll be staying away from twin motor
setups. One motor is all I want, and I want at least 170
horsepower, preferably more horsepower at higher RPMs. Rich
Rudman mentioned his 8'' motor pushing 200 horsepower to
about 5,000 RPM. Don't know how he does it, as if Bob
Brandt's equations and the motor constants on the EV
calculator site are to be believed, with about a 60% motor
efficiency at 1,000 amps, well, an 8-inch would only appear
to put out a max of 100 horse or so at a much lower RPM, and
the 9'' about 135 horsepower at 4,000-ish RPM. I'll be
making a post asking about motor horsepower and stuff later
with my calculations listed and estimated efficiency vs. amp
numbers so people see where I get the horsepower numbers
from. Keep in mind this is using the constantsfrom the EV
calculator site, and they may be off when you get to large
amp numbers or have too different a voltage than the motor
voltage the constants were derived with.
Any upgrades planned for Poppy, to increase range and/or
make it faster? I'd love to see that car in person.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar Ebenhoffershwietzerheimen wrote:
>It has a series parallel switch for the
>motors that is manually operated. The 12" wide rear
>slicks limit the
>motor current at about 700 amps due to traction
>limit up to about 40
>mph. Top speed is over 110 mph, but we don't really
>know. I don't
>think it even had a speedometer. Weight is about
>1700 lbs with
>batteries. Quite a fun car.
Wow. I've been looking for data on that car. 1,700 pounds
pretty much makes it fun by default, in my eyes. I bet that
had some kick to it...
Any idea what the range was?
What about horsepower and torque numbers?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been reading the list archives for a while now, and now I need
help from the list! I have a Renault Le Car that has recently had all of
its electric components, except the motor, updated. I have several
problems.
The first of which is that I think the motor is making more noise than
it should be. I have read severl conversion stories, and the biggest
thing people notice when they first start driving their EV is that its
silent. Well, mine isn't. It makes a noticeable noise, not a whine, but
more than a humming. Its the original prestolite, and its being run at
96 volts as opposed to its rated 48. Should I be concerned, or do all
motors make a noticeable noise?
I have been driving the car lightly, as it has a new battery pack, and I
wanted to make sure it was broken in. But, upon recently installing the
Amp guage I noticed that the car was drawing almost 200 amps cruising,
and that it doesn't really coast. So I had the car serviced, and my
serviceman informed me that not only were my brakes dragging, but the
rear bearings were siezed. He repacked the bearings, and it appears to
have gotten better, but he has no idea how to service the brakes since
they are foreign made and adjust concentrically. Should I have simply
replaced the bearings? Also, should I look into simply replacing the
brakes altogether, and does anyone have any suggestions as to where I
can find these parts?
I really want this car to work at least somewhat like an EV should.
Right now it seems that driving efficiently is impossible with bearings
that don't really work and brakes that are dragging alongside the fact
that the motor is drawing twice the power it should. Please help, and if
anybody has any other suggestions please let me know.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to know more about the shift from series to parallel mode. If a
person had a single motor could they gain more performance form shifting
battery pack from parallel to series on takeoff? After all my 96 volt pack
is dipping below 84 volts when I floor it. If I had the pack in Parallel
when I floor it and then shifted to series when amps started to fall , would
this not incease acceleration? From reading about the 100mph car I thought I
had this figured out and he was switching his pack but now it seems that the
motors are what is being switched. Anyway, I have four 1800 amp contactors
that should be here Saturday and will give it a try this weekend. Do you
think I need a make before break shorting strap when I do this or being it
is just a motor it will not know the difference? One last question, my
contactors have a pulling coil (5 amps) and a holding coil (less that 1
amp). How can I make it switch from pulling coil to holding coil
automatically without interuption?
Thanks, Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 2:03 AM
Subject: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
So there I am, minding my own business, driving home in my old electric
914 "California Poppy". It's just a usual errand. Tonight I'm test driving
a Z2K while returning from a nice Sushi dinner treat, celebrating having
finished another batch of controllers. I'm down to about 50% capacity with
eight amp hours down since the pack is dropping off a bit early lately.
(gotta find the stinker battery in the pack someday)
I'm on Alma expressway, a long straight 35 mph posted limit road that is
nice for high efficiency driving. This means it's flat, 45 mph is the norm
and the stoplights are far apart. At the first red light I pull up to the
crosswalk next to a silver convertible Mustang with Florida plates and the
top down. The 5.0 on the fender tells me this 30ish guy enjoys a little
speed. I glance over and we exchange that slight nod of acknowledgement as
guys in sports cars are prone to do.
The light turns green and I take off normally. I'm not trying to save
energy at this point so when I say "normal" that would be just fast enough
to avoid squealing the tires. It helps that I've got the series mode
current turned down to only 1600 amps so my normal start happens to be
pedal to the metal. Normal as in 0-60 in 5 seconds normal... Mr Mustang is
clearly not expecting this so I leave him behind as I normally do to
everyone. I let the car shift to parallel mode, feel the strong pull hit
me in the back and then let up to avoid breaking 50 in this quiet area. Mr
Mustang catches up with me and hangs back just a bit, presumably to take
in my many stickers proclaiming "Zilla Powered", "Powered by 100% American
Electrons" and Zero Emissions Vehicle". I'm guessing it was a bit too dark
for him to make out the "Eat my Volts" sticker on the rear window.
We get the red light again, both right at the crosswalk. He looks over a
bit and so I roll down my window. Out of his mouth comes the classic
question that tells me I have him hooked.
"What `ya got in that thing?" He asks.
"It's electric powered, 2000 amps, no gas" I reply.
"Cool" He says.
I compliment him on his nice Mustang and we smile a bit and wait for the
light.
It turns green and I'm off doing my "normal" start. Twenty feet out I
can't help but smile as I listen to engine roar mixed with his tires
complaining behind me, spinning as they cross the slick crosswalk. Again I
feel the satisfying kick in the back at about 35 mph when the motors
switch to parallel. Now with 2000 amps shared between the two 8" motors I
continue pulling away from the silver blob roaring behind me. I had no
doubt that a 5.0 mustangs 6.2 second 0-60 time was not in my league, but
clearly he wasn't so sure. Once again I let off out of respect for the
neighborhood and this time he blasts by me at 60+ mph. What's this guy
looking for, a racing ticket? :-)
The next light already has someone in my lane waiting, so he stops short
and waits for me to pull up.
Mustang Guy "That's pretty quick"
Me "Yeah, pretty fun, does thirteen eight in the quarter"
Mustang Guy "Wow, I just took this out of storage, been sitting for ten
years, Getting some aluminum heads and headers to really make it
move......
Yeah yeah yeah, when the ego is bruised, the excuses come out. :-)
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice presentation. Some comments from a peanut gallery.
If presenting this to a public you are getting try convert to electric I would
suggest an MPeg insertion of either the Woodburn video coverage or maybe the
Wayland White Zombie verses Mustang provided you can get permissions to use the
videos. It would make a bigger impact. Also $2.05 was latest price on gas in
Arizona with a possible $3.00 a gallon by summer time so the $1.79 comment is
already outdated. But otherwise a good presentation. Kid's and teens will get a
bigger kick out of the White Zombie, however my co-workers have been impressed
by the T-zero and the White Zombie race videos which I have played to them
through the internet links. Lots of dropped jaws and I believe I have even
convinced my father that electrics are do able. Pricey but do able.
Future "72 Super Beetle convertable" conversion in progress.
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob Bath wrote:
> Hi All,
> Ryan Stotts, and Juuka-- (misspelling?) (sorry)!
> have offered to host the 9 megs of .ppt file.
> I'll take Ryan up on his offer, and am expecting
> him to get back to the LIST and tell us all where in
> cyberspace this will be.
> Thanks Ryan, and keep us posted ASAP!
Here is the download link:
http://members.cox.net/rstotts/evpresentation.ppt
It's 44 pages so it's worth it.
After I uploaded it, I downloaded it from the server to make sure it
was not corrupt and it checked out fine:
http://img1.imageuploader.net/991/test.png
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A GEN I vicor could do 24-48 out and you dial it with a potentiometer,
not sure how well suited it would be. It would also have a fixed max
current limit of about 4A. A Gen II could source more current for a lot
more money.
This is mor of a "buy" than "make" approach.
Seth
On Mar 16, 2005, at 11:13 PM, Markus L wrote:
Hi Rod,
thanks for this info. I found the osmc material in
general very interesting but seems to be a bit more
than what I am ready to implement for the ET. Also I
don't see how it would allow me to increase the input
voltage (36V) to say 48V for a stronger field.
I thought I try to keep it simple and while it is
working I maintain the contactor H bridge for the
armature that is in place.
IF I want to later do FWD/REV via the field then I
would opt for a simple DPDT switch and the adjustible
voltage could be via a $15 20A scooter controller.
As to the problem of raising the voltage I was thinking
if I should just use a small 12vdc to 110Vac inverter
and then step this back down to whatever I need for the
desired field strength (and rectify it). 200w inverters
seem to be very inexpensive.
My first steps now will be to add a 12V battery which I
can switch into the field to bump up the field strength
and see the results, then decide if its worth the trouble.
Markus
"I myself am looking for a cheap way of making 5 - 48V
(adjustable) max. 5A out of 36V. Anybody have an idea?
(Its to control the field on my 36V elec-trak
compound wound motor)
Markus",
I just wrote software for my 20A 3-phase BLDC drive
that allows it to run a series motor h-bridge style or
just regular
single direction series or PM up to 60A by puting the
the FETS in parallel.
You could put your shunt field in the H-bridge
configuration and have reversing capability.
It will go up to 20 amps in this mode, but I think the
ET field will draw less than 5A (more like 3 on my
E-15 I think).
Anyhow, this control is 3.5x3.5x2.5" and goes up to 63
Volts.
There's a schematic for all of the different
configurations for a 3-phase control.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/files/Multimotor/
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh,those street racing days were so much fun.Someday I hope to build a
streetE to. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By my calculations, when gas is 1.79 or more, I come
out ahead, even factoring in the cost of batteries.
> gallon by summer time so the $1.79 comment is
> already outdated. But otherwise a good presentation.
> Kid's and teens will get a bigger kick out of the
> White Zombie, however my co-workers have been
> impressed by the T-zero and the White Zombie race
> videos which I have played to them through the
> internet links. Lots of dropped jaws and I believe I
> have even convinced my father that electrics are do
> able. Pricey but do able.
>
> Future "72 Super Beetle convertable" conversion in
> progress.
>
> Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> > Ryan Stotts, and Juuka-- (misspelling?) (sorry)!
> > have offered to host the 9 megs of .ppt file.
> > I'll take Ryan up on his offer, and am expecting
> > him to get back to the LIST and tell us all where
> in
> > cyberspace this will be.
> > Thanks Ryan, and keep us posted ASAP!
>
>
> Here is the download link:
>
> http://members.cox.net/rstotts/evpresentation.ppt
>
> It's 44 pages so it's worth it.
>
> After I uploaded it, I downloaded it from the server
> to make sure it
> was not corrupt and it checked out fine:
>
> http://img1.imageuploader.net/991/test.png
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was about 80 hours.
Heater alone took 10.
Waiting for parts to arrive meant the whole project
was 18mos.
I didn't keep track of the time I was mulling
changes/issues over in my brain on 4 hr. drives to my
child's soccer games.
(;-p
--- STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been keeping better track of my time , the
> 300zx was 190 hours , a
> lot went into playing with the power steering and
> making the adaptor plate.
> The kit car seemed to fly together with help form my
> EV friend Tom , but
> still took 100 hours of my time ( 25 to make the
> adaptor plate) . A lot of
> time can get tied up in stuff you didn't expect like
> the springs , or
> putting gauges in the dash. The more you do the
> faster things go , on your
> first one's your going to be spending allot of time
> thinking about what will
> work and will this be strong enough. I have though
> while doing a conversion
> for somebody , " if something happened to me this
> person would have to spend
> a lot of money to have any non ev person finish the
> job" . I think its great
> that your thinking about starting some kind of
> conversion business , I'm
> pretty sure your not doing it to make a lot of quick
> money. After I did my
> 2nd and both my work truck and other vehicle where
> electric , I went around
> of quite some time trying to talk anybody into doing
> a conversion. As much
> as people say they liked it , getting somebody to do
> one even when I offered
> to help for free doing all the stuff they couldn't
> ,didn't get any action.
> after ev1 became ev3 and still nobody taking me up
> on the free help , I
> came up with my raffle ticket plane , which really
> did not work well . I
> spent more time trying to sell tickets and trying to
> make the program work
> than if I had just worked my regular job and put the
> money into the car .
> But I was in the grips of the 2nd stage of EV
> madness. You've heard about
> what happens to people when they get there EV's on
> the road , that smile
> that won't come off , that feeling of being in on a
> big secret and wanting
> to tell the world. well the 2nd stage happens a few
> years later , and you
> feel you just have to do something. Well I'm getting
> off the topic, Think
> I'll go for a ride in the kit car , ya the one with
> almost the same parts as
> your planning on , the motor's starting to get
> broken in and I can feel it,
> I saw 400 amps on the e meter today, sure has been
> fun taking people for a
> ride it this one. I do the slow creep to start out ,
> then ask if we should
> see what she'll do,
> Steve Clunn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:33 PM
> Subject: How fast can you do a conversion?
>
>
> > That question has been asked of me lately, my
> response at first is a
> > littel tongue and cheek, the ole racers adage "How
> much money you got?"
> >
> > Then I get serious and explain all the bits and
> pieces that, just between
> > the list and me, I have yet to do.
> >
> > So my question to the people that have done a few
> conversions, especialy
> > ones for resale, What is a good average conversion
> time?
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 -
> Release Date: 3/11/2005
> >
> >
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan now has it on the web; funds not needed, but
donations go to the next EV project!
1137 NW Morgan Lane
Grants Pass, OR 97526
or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on paypal.
THanks in advance!
(;-p
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you compress it with WinZip?
>
> Dave
> Some call it retirement, some call it a second
> career... I just call it
> adding 5ive days to the weekend!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 8:44 PM
> Subject: PowerPoint EV Presentation Updaet
>
>
> > Hi All,
> > Ryan Stotts, and Juuka-- (misspelling?)
> (sorry)!
> > have offered to host the 9 megs of .ppt file.
> > I'll take Ryan up on his offer, and am expecting
> > him to get back to the LIST and tell us all where
> in
> > cyberspace this will be.
> > As far as other individual requests for the
> > presentation, I've been on 20 mins, and am only
> 18%
> > through sending it, thanks to being on a budget
> and
> > thus, a dialup connection. If I took it to work,
> with
> > the T-1 connection, the e-mail protection on
> GroupWise
> > says "file too large;" ain't gonna' happen.
> > Thanks Ryan, and keep us posted ASAP!
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
Maybe there is a way to make it less confusing and
more natural.
Assuming you can vary the regen with a pot or
better, 2 of them, one for each controller. Make your
first 1" of brake pedal to turn these pots on before
the friction brakes come on. Thus making it automatic
and only using 1 foot.
The team considered this but felt there was a 'Catch 22' that if the regen
portion of the brake pedal travel was small, there would not be enough range
to allow fine control. If the regen portion of the brake travel was big,
then too much time was lost getting to the friction brakes. Our set up
allows both fine control of regen and quick application of friction brakes
if I can learn to utilize them effectively.
If I remember correctly you can set the regen rate
on your controllers so to have the front brake faster
than the rear thus making better braking balance.
We have the capability. At 200 amps we are still running 50/50.
Do the controllers enable you to regen just by
releasing the go pedal like some 4qd PM controllers
do?
Yes, The Siemens controllers have that option. We have it turned off. More
efficient not to regen unless you need to.
You are doing some great work Cliff!!
jerry dycus
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Ken,
I recall a couple years back people were considering stealing their EV-1s
shortly before the leases expired; locking them in the garage, claiming the
car was stolen but the owner hid it, sending it to Mexico, putting a boot on
it, etc. And it was discussed how they could get away with it.
As it turned out not many people relished the idea of going to jail. Instead
they held a mock funeral for the car.
I've been advocating within the past week or so to the core group of
vigilers to get an injunction or lawsuit going to stop GM from crushing
them. Get the Rainbow Action Network or Sierra Club legal folks involved to
find some hole somewhere. Still no direct response yet on that idea.
Three ideas for lawsuits come to mind. It's a stretch but something.
1) American tax payers did help pay for the development of the EV-1
2) GM underhandedly helped dismantle the ZEV mandate by suing CA even though
they had a car that met the mandate.
3) The lease agreement should be scrutinized for any holes.
I realize all these ideas are stabs in the dark but if a hole can be found
somewhere or some wrongdoing can be found somewhere on GMs part, it may be
enough for an injunction.
Right now the next step the vigilers are taking is getting some political
folks involved to put pressure on GM and get GM share holders to complain.
Jay Leno did stop by the vigil this past weekend. He did in fact offer $1
million for the car. GM hasn't responded to the offers totaling $1.9 million
for the EV-1s left.
As you know GM is saying there aren't enough spare parts to keep them going.
This excuse right there is proof they didn't want the program to succeed
since they should at least have made enough parts in the beginning to keep
the original run of 1100 cars working.
I personally have not been afraid to tell GM that they are weasels, in so
many words. I sent letters to Chris Preuss and Dave Barthmuss and said how
GM pretty much sabotaged the EV-1 program and outlined point for point how
they mismanaged it. No response yet. EVA/DC has had run-ins with Chris
Preuss in the past about the EV-1 so we are already on his bad list.
I've opinioned some of these thoughts on the home page of the EVA/DC
website.
My idea to take out our frustrations on GM is to procure a Hummer H2
(legally of course) and have a slam fest on it. Get the spray paint out and
write messages on it then get out the sledge hammers, hack saws, portable
chop saws, torches, plasma cutters and go at it till there is nothing left.
Make hood ornaments out of some of the pieces for our EVs. Mail GM the rest
of the pieces and tell them to "recycle" this.
Everyone pays like $25 to get their chance to destroy the Hummer and the
proceeds go to the American Lung Association.
Ken, I think people were being nice because there was a remote chance to
save the car. You didn't want to tick GM off too much if there was a chance
they could reconsider. Obviously that's not the case now and its time to not
be nice.
But we could have been mean if we had something substantial to pin GM on
where they would have to re-lease the cars back to leasers.
I did like how Alexandra and Colette did the blockade in Burbank and Chelsea
followed the transporters. The police got involved and made arrests so that
is saying something.
What irritates me so much is that Dave Barthmuss keeps saying its only a
small group of people who wanted the car. If we had concrete proof of all
the lists and back orders for the car we could put that excuse to rest.
GM seems to completely ignore the waiting list issue. Instead they keep
bringing up this 50 people thing. From what I heard people who were leasing
the EV-1 weren't notified by GM if they wanted to keep the car. So the 50
people thing is a lie.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
Save the EV1
http://www.saveev1.org
On 3/17/05 3:04 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
> From: Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:30:56 -0800
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV-1 Vigil
>
> Given the passionate views of many regarding saving this car (up to and
> including some civil disobediance), I am very surprised that a number of
> these cars didn't get "stolen" off the street by their owners or others
> prior to returning them to GM.
>
> Also, isn't a poll about who would buy one a bit redundant and pointless
> at this point? Isn't there already a standing offer of 1.9 million for
> the remaining cars, an offer that GM has publicly refused?
>
> Didn't Jay Leno offer a million US for a single EV1 all by himself? If
> GM is unwilling to sell these cars for a million dollars a piece, they
> are clearly committed to seeing them destroyed as part of an agenda.
>
> It seems that if someone wants to save some of these cars, some stronger
> measures at the protest would have to be undertaken. I'm not advocating
> anything specific, but it sure seems like the vigil people are not
> getting much message out there other than "we want to save these cars",
> while GM is actively seeding disinformation at the same time (GM: only
> 50 owners wanted to keep their EV1s at the end of their leases).
>
> I think that GMs pattern of blatant public LIES on the subject needs to
> be the focus of the protest if the protesters really want to raise
> effective public awareness of this issue. They need to paint GM for the
> lying weasels that they are in the strongest possible terms, and I just
> don't see that in any of the articles.
>
> It seems like everyone at the vigil is being super nice and super well
> behaved. This plays right into GM tactics of asserting that it is "only
> a small group of dedicated people who want the failed product that is
> the EV1". This is not the way to expose the truth of the demise of the
> EV1.
>
> Turn up the heat people! There is almost nothing left and you are not
> being very effective so far.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:02:20 -0500, ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do the controllers enable you to regen just by
> > releasing the go pedal like some 4qd PM controllers
> > do?
>
> Yes, The Siemens controllers have that option. We have it turned off. More
> efficient not to regen unless you need to.
I'd prefer hand-controlled regen.. one brake on a lever, one on a
pedal, like a motorbike.
Nice video btw.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Out of curiousity, how much horsepower can your twin
> 8's
> manage and at what RPMs? Any estimate if there's no
> hard
> data?
A lot more than you will get from one motor at
lower speed ranges and 0-40 mph acceleration where
most driving is.
Not to mention not hammering your batts as bad.
Especially if using Li-ion's.
>
> That car is mean. It's had to have bruised many egos
> before.
> I'm sure it got the Mustang guy to at least think
> some.
> Crude oil prices just hit a new record today, $56.30
> a
> barrel for futures. And still rising. $3 a gallon
> gas this
> summer seems inevitable, and many negative
Not likely, though $2.50 US average is. On the
west coast $3/gal is in the cards.
> consequences
This consequences of this rise to $2.50 avg is
why it won't go higher most likely this yr is because
it will cause conservation and cause the economy to
bite the big one. That along with inflation, deficits,
interest rates and the housing market crash that will
come with it.
If you have stocks that don't do well in a
recession, get out now while you still have a chance.
It will also cause another spike in selling EV's
if someone would make them as I'm now doing with 3
coming out this summer. As the price of oil rises so
does their price ;-))
Also expect a rise in used EV's, finished
conversion prices shortly just like when the oil
prices rose 2 yrs ago when they basicly doubled.
If you want to build a new EV, this summer will
be a great time to sell your old one.
> arise from its continued use. Articles mentioning
> $200/barrel at the end of next year, and the world
Not going to happen, basic economy 101.
> perhaps
> hitting peak production November this year(In the
> event we
I believe we have already hit 50% of reg world oil
supplies. The higher pumping levels just mean the
downward slope of the production levels will be much
steeper.
But at about $60-70/bbl all kinds of RE like
ethanol, biodiesel, coal to liquid fuels, tar sands.
oil shale become profitable so it will have a hard
time getting over $100/bbl in the short term in the
long term in todays dollars.
Not to mention switching to EV's as their cost
advantages come to the for.
Add to that the lowering of demand for computer
batts and ramping up of materials for li-ion batts
will drive prices of EV li-ion batts down to economic
levels ;-))
So to be honest I'm very happy the price of oil is
rising!!!
> haven't already). We'll see what happens. Worst case
> scenario: you'll be sitting pretty with your high
> performance EV while everyone else pays out the ass
> for fuel
> and starts clamoring to buy econocrap that still
> uses an
> archaic fuel. :-)
Running at $.025/mile for fuel cost as he does is
really nice!!!
My $.01/mile for my lightweight EV, $.015/mile for
EV-1 type EV's is even better ;-)
>
> Just think of the possibilities with some Li Ions in
> that
> thing. Give it a 300 pound weight reduction on the
> battery
> side of things, and give it some more reduction on
> the body,
For the same range or even double it would be much
lighter than that, probably under 2,000 lbs if
70amp-hr Koman's? were used!
> and you may be pulling 12s with about a 2,500 pound
> EV.
> Drive to the track, race all day, drive home, all on
> one
> charge. Of course, that would cost a lot of money
> right now,
> what with no mass production for the parts/batteries
> and
> all.
>
> Ever find out what's been eating into your
> efficiency? Given
I'd bet it's his racing tires.
>
> Any upgrades planned for Poppy, to increase range
> and/or
> make it faster? I'd love to see that car in person.
>
I'd like to see it get back out racing SCCA
autocross or road course to show ICE'rs just what a
really good EV can do!!! Or even 1/4 mile.
What ever happened to the other 914 that use to
road race from SF I believe?
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Of course there was a learning curve - that took up probably a quarter
to a third of the total time.
Now down to the numbers - I stopped logging after about 300 hours. I
suspect I'm into the 400 hour range, and there are still several loose
ends. I think an EV could be thrown together much quicker - especially
for someone that had experience. But there are a bunch of things to
consider - if you are getting an adapter made for you (e.g. by
ElectroAuto - recommended!), plan 1.5-2 months for that - there is
sometimes a wait for other components as well.
I would be honest that there is *a lot* of little things that just take
time - if you're going to do a high-quality conversion. It isn't
*easy*, but is certainly doable with persistance.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need to talk to someone within SAFT. Does anyone on the list have a
USA contact and telephone numbers? I would prefer a battery or charger
engineer, but will be happy to start with anyone who knows the company.
Thanks,
Steve
1993 Dodge TeVan EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve, Jeff and All,
--- STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been keeping better track of my time , the
> 300zx was 190 hours , a
> lot went into playing with the power steering and
> making the adaptor plate.
> The kit car seemed to fly together with help form my
> EV friend Tom , but
> still took 100 hours of my time ( 25 to make the
> adaptor plate) . A lot of
> time can get tied up in stuff you didn't expect like
> the springs , or
> putting gauges in the dash. The more you do the
> faster things go , on your
> first one's your going to be spending allot of time
> thinking about what will
> work and will this be strong enough. I have though
> while doing a conversion
> for somebody , " if something happened to me this
> person would have to spend
> a lot of money to have any non ev person finish the
> job" . I think its great
> that your thinking about starting some kind of
> conversion business , I'm
> pretty sure your not doing it to make a lot of quick
> money. After I did my
> 2nd and both my work truck and other vehicle where
> electric , I went around
> of quite some time trying to talk anybody into doing
> a conversion. As much
> as people say they liked it , getting somebody to do
> one even when I offered
> to help for free doing all the stuff they couldn't
> ,didn't get any action.
> after ev1 became ev3 and still nobody taking me up
> on the free help , I
> came up with my raffle ticket plane , which really
> did not work well . I
> spent more time trying to sell tickets and trying to
> make the program work
> than if I had just worked my regular job and put the
> money into the car .
> But I was in the grips of the 2nd stage of EV
> madness. You've heard about
> what happens to people when they get there EV's on
> the road , that smile
> that won't come off , that feeling of being in on a
> big secret and wanting
> to tell the world. well the 2nd stage happens a few
> years later , and you
> feel you just have to do something. Well I'm getting
> off the topic, Think
> I'll go for a ride in the kit car , ya the one with
> almost the same parts as
> your planning on , the motor's starting to get
> broken in and I can feel it,
> I saw 400 amps on the e meter today, sure has been
> fun taking people for a
> ride it this one. I do the slow creep to start out ,
> then ask if we should
> see what she'll do,
> Steve Clunn
Good post on building conversions, Steve!
If someone was to want to do these for a living,
I'd stick with one model car with lightweight, good
aero so to minimize labor, parts costs.
How Electro Motive is doing their kits is a good
example. Though time for them to pick a new glider.
In fact making a deal with one of the EV kit
builders could be an excellent way to start. This will
save you a lot of time, cost, starting up and get lots
of sales leads as they always get calls from people
who want a turn-key EV instead of a kit.
A real good way is get with a kit car builder
with a car like a GT-40 and and finish them turn key
high pro EV!!
A hot GT-40 like the Valkrie by Fiberfab done
with 2-8", Zilla, ect, finished nicely could get
really big bucks like $30,000 or more when done right.
I'd take a GT-40 body and finish it out as an all
composte unibody just like Ford's new version of it
but with an EV drive train and ride the heels of it's
140,000+ price!
I'd love to find a Jamacian GT, 64 Ferrari
Daytona take off, and pull a mold off of it as it
would be a great EV! Or find it's old molds if they
are still around.
And adding a small gen of 8-10KW for long
distance you could sell a lot of them to old EV-1
owners at over $50k+ each for a nice $25K profit
each!!! Farm out the fiberglass part to a good glass
shop to cut work, costs greatly.
So think of your market first as you have to sell
them.
What I do in other things is build for myself and
if it sells build another is a good way to go but be
careful building on spec as Steve found out!
I'll build my new ones because they will only
cost about $700 in parts to build and will easily be
able to sell them at a profit by using used parts for
the EV drive train.
While the first one will take much longer as I
get the patterns, design finished the next ones should
take less than 200 hrs to build so I should make about
$3,000/mo building these after the first one ;-))
It will use hotrodded golf cart transaxles and
only go 50 mph but many retiree's here in Fla already
drive NEV's, GC's for transportation. It will be easy
to convince them to buy an EV they can drive all over
town instead of their small area they are allowed to
drive in now and be repaired by local GC repair shops
if they don't do their own.
Thus be able to get rid of their expensive car,
cutting their driving cost 50-75%!!!! I'll sell them
for $5,000, less than they pay for NEV's, many GC's
here.
After selling 3 of these I'll have the money to
build a composite version of my E-woody for really
good profits!!!
So find a good source of reasonable priced parts,
define your market and then build an EV for that
market and you'll be much more likely to be
sucessful!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:33 PM
> Subject: How fast can you do a conversion?
>
>
> > That question has been asked of me lately, my
> response at first is a
> > littel tongue and cheek, the ole racers adage "How
> much money you got?"
> >
> > Then I get serious and explain all the bits and
> pieces that, just between
> > the list and me, I have yet to do.
> >
> > So my question to the people that have done a few
> conversions, especialy
> > ones for resale, What is a good average conversion
> time?
>
__________________________________
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