EV Digest 4189
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Warning sound for approaching EV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 50 cars
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV-1 possible solution
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Transistor Voltage Question
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: How fast can you do a conversion?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: SAFT battery company -- does anyone have a USA contact?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Powerpoint EV Presentation
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PowerPoint EV Presentation Updaet
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV-1 possible solution
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVLN(BlueCar Cleanova model using lithium metal polymer batteries)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Saft Contact
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Mar 2005 at 9:35, Dave Cover wrote:
> They had
> some GM rep on saying how they contacted all the lease holders and asked who
> wanted to keep the car. He said only 50 wanted to.
That's not the way I understood his reply. It sounded like he was saying
that when GM contacted the thousands of people who made initial inquiries
about the EV1, fewer than 50 turned out to be actual prospects. That's even
MORE absurd.
Either way, it's hard to avoid the impression that he's making stuff up.
Download the report (MPEG-1 Layer 2 format) and listen again:
http://www.akronchorus.org/ev1/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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Americans are satisfied with things because they are large; and
if not large, they must have cost a great deal of money.
-- Lepel Henry Griffin, ca. 1885
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do a PPM controller, that rises with speed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "cristin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: Warning sound for approaching EV
> Personally, I'd love to have a little noisemaker that plays the sound
> from all of The Jetson's flying cars. one that rises in pitch and
> volume with speed :)
> Chitty Chitty Bang Bang has some lovely noises that could be sampled as
> well.
>
> On Mar 3, 2005, at 12:17 AM, djsharpe wrote:
>
> > A vehicle inspector warned that my EV (Diahatsu Charade) poses a risk
> > to
> > pedestrians cyclists because it is too quite. It needs according to him
> > a continuous sound. I seek comments from other EV or hybrid users.
> > Perhaps we could amplify the sound the brush gear makes or replicate
> > the
> > horn of a main line loco. What do you think?
> > David
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I heard the 50 cars quote by the GM tool, I took it to mean that of the
5000 people who indicated interest in the car, only 50 were actually willing to
go through with it.
This is a blatant deception because it had nothing to do with their
willingness, the other 4950 were actually disqualified for location,
suitability of charger installation, propensity to move, financial
considerations, etc. etc. etc.
Carl Clifford
Denver
:-|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, another solution is to make it, it can't be that complicated, some of
them went to educational institutions and museums, and I've seen information
all around the web about it, so let's first go there, check out how it is
built, then build it, a small car firm can survive on small production
figures, also the car is already certified, so if it is a carbon copy (with
enough variations to get around any patents GM might be holding) it would be
able to use the same certification, and if there are so many advocates it
will be profitable also, the point is that oil is not becoming cheap again,
and EV's make more sense every day.
The factory could work as a "prepay circle", where all evers pay a monthly
payment, and that pays the production of the cars, and the delivery of each
vehicle is decided in a raffle, so everybody pays and each person gets his
ev1 when it comes, of course at the end everybody gets his car, and if the
factory needs cash to start, then Jay Leno can pay a million bucks for the
first one.
Just a thought.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Chip Gribben
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de marzo de 2005 10:14
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: EV-1 Vigil
Hey Ken,
I recall a couple years back people were considering stealing their EV-1s
shortly before the leases expired; locking them in the garage, claiming the
car was stolen but the owner hid it, sending it to Mexico, putting a boot on
it, etc. And it was discussed how they could get away with it.
As it turned out not many people relished the idea of going to jail. Instead
they held a mock funeral for the car.
I've been advocating within the past week or so to the core group of
vigilers to get an injunction or lawsuit going to stop GM from crushing
them. Get the Rainbow Action Network or Sierra Club legal folks involved to
find some hole somewhere. Still no direct response yet on that idea.
Three ideas for lawsuits come to mind. It's a stretch but something.
1) American tax payers did help pay for the development of the EV-1
2) GM underhandedly helped dismantle the ZEV mandate by suing CA even though
they had a car that met the mandate.
3) The lease agreement should be scrutinized for any holes.
I realize all these ideas are stabs in the dark but if a hole can be found
somewhere or some wrongdoing can be found somewhere on GMs part, it may be
enough for an injunction.
Right now the next step the vigilers are taking is getting some political
folks involved to put pressure on GM and get GM share holders to complain.
Jay Leno did stop by the vigil this past weekend. He did in fact offer $1
million for the car. GM hasn't responded to the offers totaling $1.9 million
for the EV-1s left.
As you know GM is saying there aren't enough spare parts to keep them going.
This excuse right there is proof they didn't want the program to succeed
since they should at least have made enough parts in the beginning to keep
the original run of 1100 cars working.
I personally have not been afraid to tell GM that they are weasels, in so
many words. I sent letters to Chris Preuss and Dave Barthmuss and said how
GM pretty much sabotaged the EV-1 program and outlined point for point how
they mismanaged it. No response yet. EVA/DC has had run-ins with Chris
Preuss in the past about the EV-1 so we are already on his bad list.
I've opinioned some of these thoughts on the home page of the EVA/DC
website.
My idea to take out our frustrations on GM is to procure a Hummer H2
(legally of course) and have a slam fest on it. Get the spray paint out and
write messages on it then get out the sledge hammers, hack saws, portable
chop saws, torches, plasma cutters and go at it till there is nothing left.
Make hood ornaments out of some of the pieces for our EVs. Mail GM the rest
of the pieces and tell them to "recycle" this.
Everyone pays like $25 to get their chance to destroy the Hummer and the
proceeds go to the American Lung Association.
Ken, I think people were being nice because there was a remote chance to
save the car. You didn't want to tick GM off too much if there was a chance
they could reconsider. Obviously that's not the case now and its time to not
be nice.
But we could have been mean if we had something substantial to pin GM on
where they would have to re-lease the cars back to leasers.
I did like how Alexandra and Colette did the blockade in Burbank and Chelsea
followed the transporters. The police got involved and made arrests so that
is saying something.
What irritates me so much is that Dave Barthmuss keeps saying its only a
small group of people who wanted the car. If we had concrete proof of all
the lists and back orders for the car we could put that excuse to rest.
GM seems to completely ignore the waiting list issue. Instead they keep
bringing up this 50 people thing. From what I heard people who were leasing
the EV-1 weren't notified by GM if they wanted to keep the car. So the 50
people thing is a lie.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
Save the EV1
http://www.saveev1.org
On 3/17/05 3:04 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
> From: Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:30:56 -0800
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV-1 Vigil
>
> Given the passionate views of many regarding saving this car (up to and
> including some civil disobediance), I am very surprised that a number of
> these cars didn't get "stolen" off the street by their owners or others
> prior to returning them to GM.
>
> Also, isn't a poll about who would buy one a bit redundant and pointless
> at this point? Isn't there already a standing offer of 1.9 million for
> the remaining cars, an offer that GM has publicly refused?
>
> Didn't Jay Leno offer a million US for a single EV1 all by himself? If
> GM is unwilling to sell these cars for a million dollars a piece, they
> are clearly committed to seeing them destroyed as part of an agenda.
>
> It seems that if someone wants to save some of these cars, some stronger
> measures at the protest would have to be undertaken. I'm not advocating
> anything specific, but it sure seems like the vigil people are not
> getting much message out there other than "we want to save these cars",
> while GM is actively seeding disinformation at the same time (GM: only
> 50 owners wanted to keep their EV1s at the end of their leases).
>
> I think that GMs pattern of blatant public LIES on the subject needs to
> be the focus of the protest if the protesters really want to raise
> effective public awareness of this issue. They need to paint GM for the
> lying weasels that they are in the strongest possible terms, and I just
> don't see that in any of the articles.
>
> It seems like everyone at the vigil is being super nice and super well
> behaved. This plays right into GM tactics of asserting that it is "only
> a small group of dedicated people who want the failed product that is
> the EV1". This is not the way to expose the truth of the demise of the
> EV1.
>
> Turn up the heat people! There is almost nothing left and you are not
> being very effective so far.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Curtis controllers use the 0-5K resistance of the throttle to control
current to the motor. Do they do it by sending a constant voltage through
the throttle and measuring the current across the resistance? Or do they
send a constant current and measure the voltage drop? If so, what is the
voltage or current that they send? I couldn't find the info in the Curtis
manual. Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:44 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Was GM DC office & EV-1 Vigil
On 16 Mar 2005 at 9:35, Dave Cover wrote:
> They had
> some GM rep on saying how they contacted all the lease holders and asked
who
> wanted to keep the car. He said only 50 wanted to.
That's not the way I understood his reply. It sounded like he was saying
that when GM contacted the thousands of people who made initial inquiries
about the EV1, fewer than 50 turned out to be actual prospects. That's even
MORE absurd.
Either way, it's hard to avoid the impression that he's making stuff up.
Download the report (MPEG-1 Layer 2 format) and listen again:
http://www.akronchorus.org/ev1/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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Americans are satisfied with things because they are large; and
if not large, they must have cost a great deal of money.
-- Lepel Henry Griffin, ca. 1885
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, this is a sweet feeling. When I'm on my Magna (ICE,
unfortunately), people unfamiliar with bikes see a Harley (Magnas are
cruiser styled) and assume it's slow. But it can do 0-60 in around 4.5
(my guess, and from reading bike websites -- this spec is not published
by Honda); the sports car guys are a little taken aback when they get in
the other lane at a light, assuming they can punch it and pull into my
lane ahead of me. Naturally, the sports bikes make it look like I'm
standing still ...
Unfortunately, most of the time I'm in my Civic, which has to be about
the most gutless car on earth.
Otmar wrote:
So there I am, minding my own business, driving home in my old
electric 914 "California Poppy". It's just a usual errand. Tonight I'm
test driving a Z2K while returning from a nice Sushi dinner treat,
celebrating having finished ...
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--- Begin Message ---
What does it mean when specific gravity of a flooded battery is low, Voltage
is high and range is low? Is it possible that proper state of charge has
somehow not been met? I am baffled. Seems I'm getting the proper voltage
and amps do taper to near 0.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Knopf wrote:
> If a person had a single motor could they gain more performance
> from shifting battery pack from parallel to series on takeoff?
It depends. Are you using a solid-state controller with a current limit
(Curtis, DCP, Auburn, Zilla, etc.)? If so, then it's the controller that
is limiting accelleation by limiting current, and you can't increase it
by how you wire your batteries.
But if you have a contactor controller, then it is the batteries that
limit the current (by their voltage sag). In this case, you can wire
them in parallel to double the current, and thus accellerate faster (for
a given per-battery current).
But of course, as your speed rises, the motor current falls. With the
lower pack voltage in parallel, the current falls off faster. The
vehicle accellerates as if you are in first gear -- neck-snapping
accelleration from a start, but reaching a fairly low top speed quite
quickly. You have to switch the batteries to series to go faster.
> Do you think I need a make before break shorting strap when I do
> this or being it is just a motor it will not know the difference?
If you are using contactors for series/parallel switching, it is
***VITAL*** that they break before make! Otherwise, you will short the
batteries when you switch (with all the fireworks that entails)! You
want to have an absolutely foolproof method to prevent both series and
parallel contacts from closing at once. And a fuse, so when Murphy makes
it happen anyway, it won't set fire to your EV.
> One last question, my contactors have a pulling coil (5 amps) and
> a holding coil (less that 1 amp). How can I make it switch from
> pulling coil to holding coil automatically without interuption?
The standard, straightforward method is to have a small auxiliary switch
that is operated by the contactor itself. When the contactor is off,
this auxiliary switch is closed and the main and holding coils are both
powered. When the contactor pulls in, the switch opens, which cuts power
from the main coil, leaving just the holding coil. The auxiliary switch
is usually a microswitch mounted to the contactor. There are often
mounting provisions right on the contactor to add such a switch.
If you want to cook up something "electronic", the simplest solution is
to wire a light bulb in series with the main coil. If this is a 12v 5amp
coil, then use a light bulb like an 1154 or 1158 auto tail/brake light
for older cars with 6v systems. Wire just the brake part of the lamp in
series.
Here's how it works: The "cold" resistance of a light bulb is about
1/10th its "hot" resistance. The brake portion of this lamp looks like a
6.4v/2.63a=2.43 ohm resistor hot, thus 0.243 ohms cold. Your contactor's
main coil looks like a 12v/5amp= 2.4 ohm resistor. So when first powered
thru the lamp, the coil initially gets 90% of full current (4.5amps),
and pulls in quickly. Then the lamp warms up, its resistance rises to
roughly equal the coil's, and you have half current and half voltage (6v
at 2.4 amps) on each. This cuts the coil power 4:1.
Of course there are even fancier electronic solutions, but they require
more parts and cost more. Let us know if ou want to go there.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike wrote:
> I have been reading the list archives for a while now, and now
> I need help from the list! I have a Renault Le Car that has
> recently had all of its electric components, except the motor,
> updated. I have several problems.
We're on the case, Mike! I have a LeCar, so let's get to it...
> I think the motor is making more noise than it should be...
> It makes a noticeable noise, not a whine, but more than a humming.
Well, it won't "hum", because it isn't running on 60 cycle AC. It should
sound like a much quieter version of a vacuum cleaner. There is a faint
"screeeeee...." from the brushes, and a "whirrr..." at low speeds that
gradually becomes a "whine..." like a vacuum cleaner at high rpm.
Shift into neutral, and place your hand on the motor as you press the
throttle slightly. There should be essentially no vibration. If there
is, you have an off-center or out-of-balance flywheel/pressure
plate/coupler.
Let the motor coast to a stop. It should take many seconds to coast down
if your bearings are good and nothing is binding or dragging. If I spin
my motor up to 4000 rpm (about 50 mph in 2nd gear), it takes 8-10
seconds to coast to a stop.
Is there any "tick-tick--tick---tick----tick" noise as it coasts down?
If so, you have high bars on the commutator that are hitting the
brushes. They need to be turned down.
Do you hear any crunching, crackling, or marble-rolling-in-a-tin-can
type of noise? This could indicate bad motor bearings.
As you "blip" the throttle while watching the motor, do you see any
brush arcing thru the perforated grille over the brushes? There will be
a little, but you'll barely notice it in daylight just spinning it in
neutral like this. If there is significant arcing, then you may have
brush or commutator problems.
> Its the original prestolite, and its being run at 96 volts as
> opposed to its rated 48.
This is just the rated "continuous" voltage. If you have a controller,
the motor only sees your full pack voltage at full throttle and high
rpm, and you rarely drive this way for any length of time (since the
batteries would be dead in a fraction of an hour if you tried). Most of
the time, the motor voltage *is* 48v or less, so this should not be a
problem.
> But, upon recently installing the Amp guage I noticed that the car
> was drawing almost 200 amps cruising, and that it doesn't really
> coast.
Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or the motor? 200 motor
amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps in 2nd gear at 40
mph.
But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you have a PWM controller
(Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is more like 50 amps at 40
mph.
> So I had the car serviced, and my serviceman informed me that not
> only were my brakes dragging, but the rear bearings were siezed.
> He repacked the bearings, and it appears to have gotten better,
If they had siezed, throw them away! They will never work right again.
Getting parts is a major pain. I've had to order them from shops in
Seattle, Los Angeles, and even France.
> he has no idea how to service the brakes since they are foreign
> made and adjust concentrically.
I have a shop manual; it helps. I have to do all the work myself, or
supervise. The car isn't difficult to work on, but it is a bit odd. Of
course, no mechanic around here knows anything about Renaults; it's as
if they never existed. Beware of your average hammer mechanic! They will
really mess things up!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
To learn about (or bone-up-on) transistor circuit calculations, see
http://www.kilowattclassroom.com/Archive/Transistor.pdf
and the links on
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=basic+transistor+circuitry+calculations
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
approx 3 months of weekend/evening time.
Motor swap. Mount the DC/DC, charger, controller, E-meter, and the
battery pack.
I haven't done it yet. So what takes so long?
The little stuff is a killer. Since I was doing a job for a customer
everything had too be "right" the first time. (It wasn't, but nothing
ever is)
In my case I spent a lot of time on safety related stuff, per the
customer request. All the HV wiring had to be in liquidtight
conduit.... no problem for the traction wiring, but it starts getting
complicated when you add in the charger wiring, and the wiring for the
regs. The truck had to have a tilt bed.. my first design worked but was
likely to fail in a year or so, back to the drawing boards. The rudman
regs (28!) were great, but overheated in the Texas weather, so a couple
days were spent building fan cooling. A couple days of testing to
verify the Regbus interface worked. A couple of days of rebuilding
battery holddown since the first ones did not work correctly.. A couple
weeks trying to get an analog regen control for the dash built, before
discovering that even half discharged the pack tended to rise above the
AC drive overvoltage cutoff when regen'ing. A few days getting power
steering working.. and a few more days trying to find a relay that
wouldn't weld if the car was turned off when the power steering against
the stops. etc.
If you look at a lot of people's conversion diaries you'll find the
first drive is about halfway thru the project. The little details take
a while to work out. (The software engineering joke about the first 90%
of work is done in the first 90% of the time allocated. The reminaing
10% takes the next 90% of time)
That having been said, mine was about as complicated as any EV project
could be and it was my first time out. I'm not saying it couldn't be
done faster, but it takes a lot longer than you estimate.
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---
Go to Saft website and email them with contact information. They call you. Been
there done that. They will get you in contact with some who knows the answers
to your questions.
Steve Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I need to talk to someone within SAFT.
Does anyone on the list have a
USA contact and telephone numbers? I would prefer a battery or charger
engineer, but will be happy to start with anyone who knows the company.
Thanks,
Steve
1993 Dodge TeVan EV
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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--- Begin Message ---
Gmail also handles large attachments (10MB). I have invites available to EVDL
members, but only if you email me offlist. Address is tjclevenger and then
the 'at' sign, then gmail.com.
Tim
-------
> > From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Powerpoint EV Presentation
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:17:36 -0500
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:46:35 -0600, "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >I wish this inbox could handle 9 megs, so I'll just email
> >you my other adress later tonight, Bob. I'll gladly look at
> >it. Due to university computers not being exactly
> >private/encrypted, I wont be sharing that adress at the
> >moment.
>
> You might want to become aware of this freebie service:
>
> http://www.yousendit.com
>
> I use it all the time. Very smooth.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> Can you compress it with WinZip?
>
I tried it and it only compressed it a little bit. For example, with
the .ppt on my NTFS formatted hard drive, the file size of the .ppt
file is 8.58 MB. With it zipped, it's 8.25 MB.
http://img222.exs.cx/img222/9149/evzip3ll.png
http://img222.exs.cx/img222/8660/evrar4ne.png
http://imageshack.us/
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--- Begin Message ---
Ivo Jara wrote:
> OK, another solution is to make it, it can't be that complicated
Speaking as someone who *has* built cars from scratch, it is a *major*
project!
Very few people ever attempt to build a car. Most who do are actually
just assembling a kit that some large company engineered, or they just
re-arranged pieces from existing cars to make something slightly
different.
But the EV1 is unique. Most of its parts were specially designed and
built, and used in nothing else. In many cases you could find
substitutes, I'm sure. But the end result might come off a little like
building a Ferrari replica out of an old VW beetle with a fiberglass
body -- it looks like the original, but works conpletely different.
It would help tremendously if you could get your hands on an EV1 to
reverse-engineer (i.e. take it all apart and document all the parts
used, their dimensions, how they are assembled, etc.). With 20/20
hindsight, it's too bad no one with an EV1 had the nerve to strip it to
pieces, document everything, slap it all back together, and THEN turned
it in to be crushed.
> some of them went to educational institutions and museums
Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever putting
them on the road again.
> a small car firm can survive on small production figures
True enough. There might be enough market for the EV1 that a small kit
car company could build an EV2 clone. But, like the Ferrari body on a
Beetle, it could be anything from pretty junk to something almost as
good as the real thing.
> the car is already certified, so if it is a carbon copy (with
> enough variations to get around any patents GM might be holding)
> it would be able to use the same certification
Probably not. Too many lawyers, too many loopholes. Officially, you'd
have to re-test it even if it was an EXACT copy.
However, there are also loopholes that work in favor of small car
companies. They can "fly under the radar" of many government
regulations, and escape crash and emissions testing. For one, if you
sell it as a kit, then the buyer is the "manufacturer", and most states
have very lax requirements for home builders.
> The factory could work as a "prepay circle", where all evers pay
> a monthly payment, and that pays the production of the cars, and
> the delivery of each vehicle is decided in a raffle, so everybody
> pays and each person gets his ev1 when it comes, of course at the
> end everybody gets his car, and if the factory needs cash to start,
> then Jay Leno can pay a million bucks for the first one.
Oh, yes; there are *endless* possibilities! But the sad fact is that so
many Americans are couch potatoes, and look for someone else to do it
all for them. "I'd buy it if someone else does all the work. Oh yes, and
it's got to be cheap. And I'll expect them to service it just like it
came from a factory. And I'll sue them if I'm not happy." The sad fact
is that even if you found 100 highly motivated participants, all it
takes is one asshole to poison the whole effort.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
If you are using contactors for series/parallel switching, it is
***VITAL*** that they break before make! Otherwise, you will short the
batteries when you switch (with all the fireworks that entails)!
What I was wondering was, would it be better to have a Controlled Short
(Through a spring or some other high resistance metal that would heat up but
not melt for the 500 milliseconds or so it would take to transfer form
parallel to series) or a Complete removal of battery current from the motor
under load and then reapplication of load? I guess I am asking how much
abuse can an electric motor take and which abuse would be less likely to
hurt my motor?( I am really proud of my old Baldor motor, but do have
another in case I fry this one.)
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
Jack Knopf wrote:
If a person had a single motor could they gain more performance
from shifting battery pack from parallel to series on takeoff?
It depends. Are you using a solid-state controller with a current limit
(Curtis, DCP, Auburn, Zilla, etc.)? If so, then it's the controller that
is limiting accelleation by limiting current, and you can't increase it
by how you wire your batteries.
But if you have a contactor controller, then it is the batteries that
limit the current (by their voltage sag). In this case, you can wire
them in parallel to double the current, and thus accellerate faster (for
a given per-battery current).
But of course, as your speed rises, the motor current falls. With the
lower pack voltage in parallel, the current falls off faster. The
vehicle accellerates as if you are in first gear -- neck-snapping
accelleration from a start, but reaching a fairly low top speed quite
quickly. You have to switch the batteries to series to go faster.
Do you think I need a make before break shorting strap when I do
this or being it is just a motor it will not know the difference?
If you are using contactors for series/parallel switching, it is
***VITAL*** that they break before make! Otherwise, you will short the
batteries when you switch (with all the fireworks that entails)! You
want to have an absolutely foolproof method to prevent both series and
parallel contacts from closing at once. And a fuse, so when Murphy makes
it happen anyway, it won't set fire to your EV.
One last question, my contactors have a pulling coil (5 amps) and
a holding coil (less that 1 amp). How can I make it switch from
pulling coil to holding coil automatically without interuption?
The standard, straightforward method is to have a small auxiliary switch
that is operated by the contactor itself. When the contactor is off,
this auxiliary switch is closed and the main and holding coils are both
powered. When the contactor pulls in, the switch opens, which cuts power
from the main coil, leaving just the holding coil. The auxiliary switch
is usually a microswitch mounted to the contactor. There are often
mounting provisions right on the contactor to add such a switch.
If you want to cook up something "electronic", the simplest solution is
to wire a light bulb in series with the main coil. If this is a 12v 5amp
coil, then use a light bulb like an 1154 or 1158 auto tail/brake light
for older cars with 6v systems. Wire just the brake part of the lamp in
series.
Here's how it works: The "cold" resistance of a light bulb is about
1/10th its "hot" resistance. The brake portion of this lamp looks like a
6.4v/2.63a=2.43 ohm resistor hot, thus 0.243 ohms cold. Your contactor's
main coil looks like a 12v/5amp= 2.4 ohm resistor. So when first powered
thru the lamp, the coil initially gets 90% of full current (4.5amps),
and pulls in quickly. Then the lamp warms up, its resistance rises to
roughly equal the coil's, and you have half current and half voltage (6v
at 2.4 amps) on each. This cuts the coil power 4:1.
Of course there are even fancier electronic solutions, but they require
more parts and cost more. Let us know if ou want to go there.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
> Out of curiousity, how much horsepower can your twin 8's
> manage and at what RPMs? Any estimate if there's no hard
> data?
I'd really like to see that car put on a chassis dyno so we could see
how the hp/tq graphs compare to an ICE car:
http://painlesswiring.squarespace.com/resource/Ford%20HO%20STP%20Corrected%20Power-1.TIF?userId=16074&fileId=80646
http://painlesswiring.squarespace.com/resource/Ford%20HO%20STP%20Corrected%20Torque-1.TIF?userId=16074&fileId=81117
Awesome video here:
http://www.mustangdyne.com/demo/Performance%20Video.htm
Locations:
http://www.dynojet.com/dyno_centers/automotive/index.php
http://www.mustangdyne.com/LocatorPages/DynLocator.htm
I think they'd let you use it for ~$20?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> If you are using contactors for series/parallel switching, it is
> ***VITAL*** that they break before make! Otherwise, you will short
> the batteries when you switch (with all the fireworks that entails)!
Jack Knopf wrote:
> What I was wondering was, would it be better to have a Controlled
> Short (Through a spring or some other high resistance metal that
> would heat up but not melt for the 500 milliseconds or so it would
> take to transfer from parallel to series) or a Complete removal of
> battery current from the motor under load and then reapplication
> of load?
The standard way to do series/parallel switching is:
- cut power to the motor
- switch between series and parallel at zero current
- re-apply power to the motor
Depending on the specific circuit, they may cut power by opening the
main contactor; or by having separate series- and parallel- contactors
(only one of which can be on at once); or a single series/parallel
contactor which can physically only be in one position at a time.
In each case, cutting power to the motor makes its torque go to zero,
which generally reduces mechanical stress on the drive train. There
*are* setups that can switch between series/paralle instantaneously (the
rectactor circuit, for example), but you get a noticeable "lurch" when
they switch from parallel to series.
But, opening the circuit to a series motor can produce an inductive
"kick" which causes contact arcing. The usual solutions are to ignore it
(cheap), or put a "snubber" capacitor across the contact (like a 100uF
electrolytic), or a freewheel diode across the motor (can be a big slow
dumb diode).
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 5:46 AM -0600 3-17-05, Jack Knopf wrote:
I would like to know more about the shift from series to parallel
mode. If a person had a single motor could they gain more
performance form shifting battery pack from parallel to series on
takeoff?
Please never try this with one of my controllers! They are only
built for series parallel shifting of dual motors on the output, and
then only when set up for that option and with the proper contactors.
Doing such things incorrectly can blow controllers pretty quickly.
The controller automatically converts excess battery voltage into
higher current at a lower voltage for the motor, that's it's job. I
see no situation where a series parallel battery setup would help
when running a electronic controller. Aside from that, due to its
design, it is not happy with sudden changes in input voltage.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Blue car and Cleanova are different cars !
blue car is from Bolloré
Cleanova is from SVE (heuliez-Dassault)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:25 PM
Subject: EVLN(BlueCar Cleanova model using lithium metal polymer batteries)
> EVLN(BlueCar Cleanova model using lithium metal polymer batteries)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/news-5843man4pb
> BatScap presents Mini-inspired electric car concept at Geneva
> 3rd March 2005
>
> The French Society of Electric Vehicles, involving the Heuliez
> specialist automotive assembly group, French power generator EDF
> and entrepreneur Vincent Bolloré, wants to challenge the lead of
> hybrid cars with a new 'BlueCar' version of its Cleanova model
> using rechargeable batteries.
>
> Mr Bolloré has invested £48m in a lithium metal polymer battery
> based on technology developed by his plastic film business. The
> new battery is said to be five times lighter than lead-acid
> alternatives, can last 10 years or 90,000 miles, and provides the
> Blue Car with a 125-mile range before recharging.
>
> The BlueCar has been designed by Philippe Guedon, former chairman
> of Matra Automobiles and creator of the first Renault Espace. He
> said he had drawn on the original Issigonis Mini for the new car.
> (The Guardian)
>
> ===
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/bolloreacute_gr.html
> March 07, 2005
> Bolloré Group Introduces BlueCar Lithium-Metal-Polymer EV Concept
> Bluecar
>
> The Bolloré Group, through its subsidiary BatScap, introduced an
> electric vehicle (EV) concept car using new its
> Lithium-Metal-Polymer batteries at the Geneva Motor Show.
>
> The Bolloré group is not trying to become an automaker, but is
> eager to have its battery technology used in a vehicle.
>
> The new BlueCar with its LMP batteries offers an operating range
> of 200-250 kilometers (124-155 miles) and a top speed of 135 kmh
> (84 mph).
>
> A full recharge requires 6 hours; a two-hour rapid charge will
> recover 50% capacity.
>
> BlueCar has three front seats, and an 810-liter (28.6 cubic feet)
> storage area in the rear. The vehicle is a mere 3.05 metres long,
> or exactly the same length as the old Mini. Two fold-up jump
> seats can also be installed in this area, making the BlueCar a
> five-seater. Lmp_illbateriecoupe
>
> The lithium-metal-polymer cell is a laminate of four ultra-thin
> materials:
>
> *A metallic lithium foil anode that acts as both a lithium source
> and a current collector.
>
> *A solid polymeric electrolyte created by dissolving a lithium
> salt in a solvating co-polymer (polyoxyethylene).
>
> * A cathode composed of vanadium oxide, carbon and polymer to
> form a plastic composite.
>
> *An aluminum foil current collector.
>
> The ultra-thin films are layered, coiled, then compressed into a
> prismatic shape and assembled into cells, which are then
> assembled into modules.
>
> LMP batteries offer advantages such as a much higher energy
> capacity per unit volume and unit weight, and a very predictable
> and stable charge/discharge characteristics over varying
> environmental conditions-all very good qualities for an electric
> vehicle battery.
>
> BatScap is not alone in providing LMP technology for vehicles or
> in looking for automakers as partners. Avestor, a subsidiary of a
> Hydro-Québec, has put its LMP modules into the prototype
> CleanNova II delivery van for the French Post Office (earlier
> post).
>
> [Electric Vehicle Battery Technology
> Energy Density Power Cycles Technology
> (Wh/Kg) (Wh/l) (W/kg)
> 110 110 320 --- BatScap LMP
> 121 143 241 300 Avestor Prototype LMP
> 138 210 430 550 Li-ion
> 63 150 200 800 NiMH
> 50 90 120 800 Ni-Cad
> 36 86 180 600 Lead-Acid ]
> -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a rep but when I mentioned that the
> STM-180's use more water than T-105's and had to be viewed from the side
> since occasionally a cell doesn't fill he emailed back, he is terminating
> email with me.
>
> Saft apparently doesn't like you to point out any downsides of their
> batteries. They should also have handles on them for the price. A
> recombinant cap would help with the drinking problem but are 80% eff vs
90%
> for T-105's due to the chemestry. The positives of course are the
longevity
> and cold operation, but never run them hot or dry out a cell.
> Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:16 AM
> Subject: SAFT battery company -- does anyone have a USA contact?
>
>
> > I need to talk to someone within SAFT. Does anyone on the list have a
> > USA contact and telephone numbers? I would prefer a battery or charger
> > engineer, but will be happy to start with anyone who knows the company.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve
> > 1993 Dodge TeVan EV
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
