EV Digest 4190
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Renualt LeCar
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: How fast can you do a conversion
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How fast can you do a conversion?
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Devil's advocate
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Force jerkiness on very slow startup
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EV-1 possible solution ended now (mars robot)
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 18 hours after charge.128.7v 1225 spec. Grav.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV-1 possible solution
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) re: Snow White race car specs
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Series-parallel switch
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Devil's advocate
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) BB600 Vent Caps
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Force jerkiness on very slow startup
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Wolfspider to Play at NEDRA Power of DC June 11
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Series-parallel switch
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Series-parallel switch
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:13 PM -0600 3-17-05, Ryan Stotts wrote:
John Westlund wrote:
Out of curiousity, how much horsepower can your twin 8's
manage and at what RPMs? Any estimate if there's no hard
data?
I'd really like to see that car put on a chassis dyno so we could see
how the hp/tq graphs compare to an ICE car:
I've done some runs with a G-Tech meter and IIRC it was peaking at
210 HP. I think that was somewhere around 2000 rpm.
It would be neat to run with the fancier G-Techs that put out a
graph, but I have not done it.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This normally cause by the negative plates not defusing completely. This is a
old term use back in the 20's and 30's. When a battery discharges, the
chemical exchange is from the positive plate which is Lead Oxide or PBO2
exchanging with the electrolyte which is H2O + H2SO4 of where the Sulfate or
SO4 is in fusing into the negative plate.
At this time the electrolyte becomes more H2O which has a lower specific
gravity.
When you charge , this action reverses, which somewhat disulfate's the negative
plate.
As time goes by, the negative plates become more sulfated, making it more
resistance or making your battery a smaller battery in compacity.
The thicker the plates, or normally call a deep cell, the harder it takes for
the sulfated to travel up to the surfaced of the plate.
When batteries are new, a diffusion test should be done to see how long it
takes to recover to a certain voltage. This now is a reference to a test you
can do latter which you can used for comparison.
To do this test, drive the EV at the highest amperes it could take, until I
discharge to 50 percent.
Then record the voltage drop under a certain amp load.
Record the instant voltage recovery under no load.
Wait about 15 minutes and record the additional recovery time. (This is call
the diffusion time, where the SO4 has travel from deep in the plates to the
surface of the plates)
Used the records for a future reference when testing the batteries at a latter
date.
You may have like many others, which I have done too, is diluting the
electrolyte by adding water at the wrong time. It is best to add water only
when battery is discharge down to 50 percent and only about 1/4 above the
plates. The water mixes better during the charging cycle.
When the battery is charge, it is normal for this electrolyte to rise.
Adjustments of electrolyte level can be made at the next discharge cycle.
Also, if you let the battery set for a while, the top portion of the
electrolyte could read less than at the bottom portion, where the H2SO4 is
heaver than H2O and tends to settle to the bottom to the cell. This could
really throw you off in your SG readings.
Try to do a balance charge or equalizing charge to 15.5 volts or until the
specific gravity reaches 13.00. This will reduce the water in the electrolyte
to make it more conductive.
If your batteries are at a high amp hour rating 250 AH or greater with very
thick plates, it will take a higher charge ampere to disulfide the negative
plates. My old batteries which were 300 AH at 180 volts, had to charge to 252
volts which would be equal to 16.8 volts per 12 volt battery until the specific
gravity read 13.00 which I done about once a month.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> ;
Zappylist<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:21 AM
Subject: Specfic Gravity low. Voltage high. Range low.
What does it mean when specific gravity of a flooded battery is low, Voltage
is high and range is low? Is it possible that proper state of charge has
somehow not been met? I am baffled. Seems I'm getting the proper voltage
and amps do taper to near 0.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't have to worry about that! I think I can get more that a mere 2000
amps from one of my controllers.
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
At 5:46 AM -0600 3-17-05, Jack Knopf wrote:
I would like to know more about the shift from series to parallel mode. If
a person had a single motor could they gain more performance form shifting
battery pack from parallel to series on takeoff?
Please never try this with one of my controllers! They are only built for
series parallel shifting of dual motors on the output, and then only when
set up for that option and with the proper contactors. Doing such things
incorrectly can blow controllers pretty quickly.
The controller automatically converts excess battery voltage into higher
current at a lower voltage for the motor, that's it's job. I see no
situation where a series parallel battery setup would help when running a
electronic controller. Aside from that, due to its design, it is not
happy with sudden changes in input voltage.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you need anything not to big or heavy (shipping cost hurts) i would be
pleased to help you at no cost.
Philippe
>From native renault 5 (French ICE LeCar version) country
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Renualt LeCar
> Mike wrote:
> > I have been reading the list archives for a while now, and now
> > I need help from the list! I have a Renault Le Car that has
> > recently had all of its electric components, except the motor,
> > updated. I have several problems.
>
> We're on the case, Mike! I have a LeCar, so let's get to it...
>
> > I think the motor is making more noise than it should be...
> > It makes a noticeable noise, not a whine, but more than a humming.
>
> Well, it won't "hum", because it isn't running on 60 cycle AC. It should
> sound like a much quieter version of a vacuum cleaner. There is a faint
> "screeeeee...." from the brushes, and a "whirrr..." at low speeds that
> gradually becomes a "whine..." like a vacuum cleaner at high rpm.
>
> Shift into neutral, and place your hand on the motor as you press the
> throttle slightly. There should be essentially no vibration. If there
> is, you have an off-center or out-of-balance flywheel/pressure
> plate/coupler.
>
> Let the motor coast to a stop. It should take many seconds to coast down
> if your bearings are good and nothing is binding or dragging. If I spin
> my motor up to 4000 rpm (about 50 mph in 2nd gear), it takes 8-10
> seconds to coast to a stop.
>
> Is there any "tick-tick--tick---tick----tick" noise as it coasts down?
> If so, you have high bars on the commutator that are hitting the
> brushes. They need to be turned down.
>
> Do you hear any crunching, crackling, or marble-rolling-in-a-tin-can
> type of noise? This could indicate bad motor bearings.
>
> As you "blip" the throttle while watching the motor, do you see any
> brush arcing thru the perforated grille over the brushes? There will be
> a little, but you'll barely notice it in daylight just spinning it in
> neutral like this. If there is significant arcing, then you may have
> brush or commutator problems.
>
> > Its the original prestolite, and its being run at 96 volts as
> > opposed to its rated 48.
>
> This is just the rated "continuous" voltage. If you have a controller,
> the motor only sees your full pack voltage at full throttle and high
> rpm, and you rarely drive this way for any length of time (since the
> batteries would be dead in a fraction of an hour if you tried). Most of
> the time, the motor voltage *is* 48v or less, so this should not be a
> problem.
>
> > But, upon recently installing the Amp guage I noticed that the car
> > was drawing almost 200 amps cruising, and that it doesn't really
> > coast.
>
> Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or the motor? 200 motor
> amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps in 2nd gear at 40
> mph.
>
> But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you have a PWM controller
> (Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is more like 50 amps at 40
> mph.
>
> > So I had the car serviced, and my serviceman informed me that not
> > only were my brakes dragging, but the rear bearings were siezed.
> > He repacked the bearings, and it appears to have gotten better,
>
> If they had siezed, throw them away! They will never work right again.
>
> Getting parts is a major pain. I've had to order them from shops in
> Seattle, Los Angeles, and even France.
>
> > he has no idea how to service the brakes since they are foreign
> > made and adjust concentrically.
>
> I have a shop manual; it helps. I have to do all the work myself, or
> supervise. The car isn't difficult to work on, but it is a bit odd. Of
> course, no mechanic around here knows anything about Renaults; it's as
> if they never existed. Beware of your average hammer mechanic! They will
> really mess things up!
> --
> "The two most common elements in the universe
> are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We tell people who are doing conversions from scratch (no bolt-in kit) to
plan on at least 200 hours, and that seems to be borne out by the posts
here. We have done several Voltsrabbit installations in 3 days - with a
crew of about 6 people, and the car fully stripped and prepped ahead of
time. This is only possible because the kit is all pre-fabbed. I already
invested the hundreds of design and fab hours.
First, you have to do the layout to figure out where everything fits. Then
you have to design and fab the mounts to fit the pieces there. Then you
have to RE-design and fab to compensate for the problems you didn't notice
the first time you planned it. I tell people that most of those 200 hours
are scratching-your-head time.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar said:
> when running a electronic controller. Aside from that, due to its
> design, it is not happy with sudden changes in input voltage.
Does this apply to running two controllers off the same battery pack
(assuming one had a pack capable of 4000A)? Would the sudden voltage sag
caused by a rapid power draw on one controller harm the other? Or does
the drop end up being gradual enough that this isn't a problem?
Ah, I wish I could pretend this isn't totally hypothetical... :o)
--chris
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff, most of our conversions run about 80 hrs of shop time.
There is also time spent waiting for custom parts that we don't stock
like the battery box's.
Most vehicles are out the door in about 4 weeks depending on shop schedule.
There are three of us full time (one engineer, one mechanic and whatever
I do ;>) so we have gotten good at it and 15 years of experience as
well. ;>)
BFN
Randy
Subject:
How fast can you do a conversion?
From:
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
So my question to the people that have done a few conversions,
especialy ones for resale, What is a good average conversion time?
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wearing my Devil's Advocate cap today. I have a
question that I get sometimes from environmentalists
when I talk about EVs.
What about production and recycling of batteries?
Doesn't production of, say, lithium batteries (or
other kinds) make toxic byproducts? And require energy
and other resourcse? Have those been factored into
equations about the costs/benefits of EVs vs. other
vehicles?
And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't have a
source for that figure. And what about other
batteries? Are we just dumping them in Third World
countries?
Thoughts appreciated.
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association
415-681-7731
www.sfeva.org
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:07 PM -0600 3-17-05, Jack Knopf wrote:
You don't have to worry about that! I think I can get more that a
mere 2000 amps from one of my controllers.
Jack.
And...!? Were waiting with baited breath. Tell us what you're running!
Is it a contactor control? What batteries do you have?
It's starting to sound like fun when 2000 amps is "a mere 2000 amps". :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My new 1998 Force is now at Solectria ("Azure" now) where they have
not managed to diagnose the following problem: If I push very slowly
on the accelerator, the car jerks backward and forward without going
anywhere. In one case, trying to get off of a tow dolly I was able to
get the pedal to the floor without it ever having enough power to get
over the lip of the dolly. If I depress the pedal rapidly it seems to
work normally (but then I don't have much control in tight
situations). Anybody recognize this problem? Swapping the speed
sensor and the controller did not fix it.
Is there a Force mailing list, or is this the right place to ask such
questions?
Thanks.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
O, you convinved me, well have to design a better one then... :))
Too bad it's so complicated, btw, here in chile nasa is testing a robot
which will be sent to mars, it is a wierd little thing that runs on solar
cells and Lithium-polymer cells, it's all over the news here, and they say
these last three times as normal cells, has anybody tried them ?
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lee Hart
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de marzo de 2005 15:36
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: EV-1 possible solution
Ivo Jara wrote:
> OK, another solution is to make it, it can't be that complicated
Speaking as someone who *has* built cars from scratch, it is a *major*
project!
Very few people ever attempt to build a car. Most who do are actually
just assembling a kit that some large company engineered, or they just
re-arranged pieces from existing cars to make something slightly
different.
But the EV1 is unique. Most of its parts were specially designed and
built, and used in nothing else. In many cases you could find
substitutes, I'm sure. But the end result might come off a little like
building a Ferrari replica out of an old VW beetle with a fiberglass
body -- it looks like the original, but works conpletely different.
It would help tremendously if you could get your hands on an EV1 to
reverse-engineer (i.e. take it all apart and document all the parts
used, their dimensions, how they are assembled, etc.). With 20/20
hindsight, it's too bad no one with an EV1 had the nerve to strip it to
pieces, document everything, slap it all back together, and THEN turned
it in to be crushed.
> some of them went to educational institutions and museums
Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever putting
them on the road again.
> a small car firm can survive on small production figures
True enough. There might be enough market for the EV1 that a small kit
car company could build an EV2 clone. But, like the Ferrari body on a
Beetle, it could be anything from pretty junk to something almost as
good as the real thing.
> the car is already certified, so if it is a carbon copy (with
> enough variations to get around any patents GM might be holding)
> it would be able to use the same certification
Probably not. Too many lawyers, too many loopholes. Officially, you'd
have to re-test it even if it was an EXACT copy.
However, there are also loopholes that work in favor of small car
companies. They can "fly under the radar" of many government
regulations, and escape crash and emissions testing. For one, if you
sell it as a kit, then the buyer is the "manufacturer", and most states
have very lax requirements for home builders.
> The factory could work as a "prepay circle", where all evers pay
> a monthly payment, and that pays the production of the cars, and
> the delivery of each vehicle is decided in a raffle, so everybody
> pays and each person gets his ev1 when it comes, of course at the
> end everybody gets his car, and if the factory needs cash to start,
> then Jay Leno can pay a million bucks for the first one.
Oh, yes; there are *endless* possibilities! But the sad fact is that so
many Americans are couch potatoes, and look for someone else to do it
all for them. "I'd buy it if someone else does all the work. Oh yes, and
it's got to be cheap. And I'll expect them to service it just like it
came from a factory. And I'll sue them if I'm not happy." The sad fact
is that even if you found 100 highly motivated participants, all it
takes is one asshole to poison the whole effort.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Renualt LeCar
> Is the amp gauge in series with the batteries, or the motor? 200 motor
> amps is only a little high; mine is around 150 amps in 2nd gear at 40
> mph.
>
> But battery amps should be a *lot* lower if you have a PWM controller
> (Curtis, DCP, etc.). Mine, with a 132v pack, is more like 50 amps at 40
> mph.
How does where the amp gauge is make a difference? Is it because the controller
only lets out the amps it is programed to? But even if the gauge was between
the pack and the controller it would only see what the motor is using, correct?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have high charge. Low specific gravity. The pack is 20 US 125's.
> The charger is a Lester. The vehicle the Electravan. I am
> experiencing short range compared to my other vehicles.
First, I want to be sure I understand your data. Are you saying:
1. You fully charged the pack, i.e.
- charged until specific gravity stopped rising
- and/or charged until the current was less than 5 amps
(2% of your battery's nominal 250 amphour rating)
- at more than 2.5 volts per cell
(150 volts for your 20 6v batteries)
2. You then waited 18 hours,
3. And then measured 128.7v (2.15v/cell) with no load,
and a 1225 (average?) specific gravity?
4. And the batteries are at a "normal" temperature (around 70 deg.F)
and in "normal" condition (not low on water, no bad cells, no loose
connections, not very old nor high cycle life)?
If the above are true, then my impression from the voltage is that the
pack is fairly close to full charge. A fully-charged open-circuit
voltage of 2.1-2.2v per cell is normal for flooded golf cart batteries.
The low specific gravity could be from many sources. Your hydrometer
might not be accurate, or maybe it isn't temperature-compensated. Your
batteries may have lost acid from spills or "fizzed" it out from
extended high-rate charging. The acid might be locked up in sulfation
and sludge in the bottom if the batteries are old, have sat dead for
long periods, been asked to deliver high currents for long periods of
time, or are just worn out from excessive cycle life.
If the SG really is this low with a fully charged battery, then I would
expect these batteries to have low amphour capacity and high internal
resistance. The sulfuric acid is one of the materials needed to supply
current -- without it, you get less current. It is also needed to
provide a low internal resistance -- without it, there will be more
voltage sag.
You didn't mention what the differences are between batteries. Are the
bad results of the pack as a whole possibly due to one or more bad
cells? You can check this by going for a drive, then measuring
individual cell SGs and voltages before charging to see if any are
unusually low.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
some of them went to educational institutions and museums
Yes... but to the best of our knowledge, they have all been butchered
and stripped, and came with legal contracts that prohibited ever
putting
them on the road again.
Western Washington University (my sort-of alma mater -- I did a vehicle
design post-bacc there in '98-'99) got one last year. They'd taken out
the batteries and the motherboard out of the controller and left
everything else.
-Frank
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--- Begin Message ---
Otmar said:
when running a electronic controller. Aside from that, due to its
design, it is not happy with sudden changes in input voltage.
Does this apply to running two controllers off the same battery pack
(assuming one had a pack capable of 4000A)? Would the sudden voltage sag
caused by a rapid power draw on one controller harm the other? Or does
the drop end up being gradual enough that this isn't a problem?
Ah, I wish I could pretend this isn't totally hypothetical... :o)
That is not a problem.
When a controller is regulating the power draw you're talking
milliseconds for the voltage to change. And the batteries themselves
resist fast voltage change.
It's the nanosecond voltage changes of a contactor connecting a
battery pack to the controller that cause very high current surges in
the filter capacitors and therefore can cause problems in the
controller.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>At 1:07 PM -0600 3-17-05, Jack Knopf wrote:
>>You don't have to worry about that! I think I can get more that a
>>mere 2000 amps from one of my controllers.
>>Jack.
>
>And...!? Were waiting with baited breath. Tell us what you're running!
>Is it a contactor control? What batteries do you have?
>It's starting to sound like fun when 2000 amps is "a mere 2000 amps". :-)
>--
>-Otmar-
Isn't Jack's the dipping-metal-plates-in-salt-water design that brought up the
discussion of chlorine gas release? If that's the case, then the current is
only limited by the size of plates you use (and the efficiency of your gas
mask).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar Ebenhoffershwietzerheimen wrote:
It has a series parallel switch for the
motors that is manually operated. The 12" wide rear
slicks limit the
motor current at about 700 amps due to traction
limit up to about 40
mph. Top speed is over 110 mph, but we don't really
know. I don't
think it even had a speedometer. Weight is about
1700 lbs with
batteries. Quite a fun car.
Wow. I've been looking for data on that car. 1,700 pounds
pretty much makes it fun by default, in my eyes. I bet that
had some kick to it...
Any idea what the range was?
We used to have range numbers at 100 mph, I think it would do 12 to
13 miles at that speed. It would do much better at low speed.
What about horsepower and torque numbers?
Ha! We don't even have those for our cars today! :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What does it mean when specific gravity of a flooded battery
> is low, Voltage is high and range is low? Is it possible
> that proper state of charge has somehow not been met?
> I am baffled. Seems I'm getting the proper voltage
> and amps do taper to near 0.
The batteries are not getting fully charged. I recently experienced the
same issue with a particular size and brand of flooded battery one of
our customers was using. Even though the battery was charged with a
dv/dt termination algorithm, and the voltage was not rising at end of
charge (dv/dt -> 0), the specific gravity was not getting up to where it
should, and would drop from one cycle to the next. Eventually capacity
started to show up as low also.
The battery company's first suggestion was to increase the bulk charge
rate. They say that if the initial charge rate is not high enough you
can have residual sulphation. The other thing they mentioned was that
the batteries should reach about 2.6V/cell (or more) at the end of
charge (which they weren't). I didn't notice any significant difference
in s.g. behaviour by increasing the bulk rate, but by letting the end of
charge current taper to a low level (e.g. 4.5A) before hitting the
batteries with a 9.75A for 3hr finish (recommended by the battery co.),
I could force the end of charge voltage up to the desired level. This
may sound a bit abusive, but these are large (325Ah) batteries and they
are using very little water even with this regimen. Even though the
voltage rose very little during this 3hr finish phase, the specific
gravity of the weaker cells increased by as much as 20 points on a
single cycle.
Is your Lester one of the models that can accept either 220VAC or 110VAC
input? If so, are you running it on 220? If not, then do so, as this
will increase the bulk current to the batteries. US Battery recommends
a *minimum* initial charge rate of about 20A for the US2200; how near to
this are you achieving?
Do you have some means of performing a constant current finish charge?
What sort of current is your Lester tapering to at the end of charge?
If you restart the charger can you force it to run at a higher current
for a few hours into a "fully charged" pack? Maybe its time to dig out
your variac and/or place your PFCxx order with Rich? ;^>
Bottom line is that if you aren't getting the s.g. up to 1.285, you
aren't getting fully charged yet. What is the voltage that your Lester
is taking the pack to? Perhaps it is high enough for Trojans, but not
quite high enough for US Battery product (US Battery does recommend a
higher charging voltage than Trojan, and it does make a difference)?
Hope this helps,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
cowtown wrote:
> Isn't Jack's the dipping-metal-plates-in-salt-water design that brought up the
> discussion of chlorine gas release?
I never understood, why not just use some filtered water that doesn't
have chlorine in it and avoid the problems?
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm confused- how does the series to parallel switch happen and how does it
enhance motor power and amp consumption?
Thks
Rush
Tucson AZ
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005
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--- Begin Message ---
Sherry Boschert wrote:
> And what about recycling? I've heard that 90% of
> lead-acid batteries are recyclable, but I don't have a
> source for that figure.
http://www.exide.com/recycling.html
Ideally, 100% of the lead/acid batteries could be and should be
recycled. I've often wondered on the numbers I've seen, why it's not
100% and what happens to those batteries that apparently don't get
recycled.
A question I've had for a while now but have been reluctant to bring
up. When I was young, I had a HO gauge electric model railroad. It
got it's power from the track rails, through the wheels, then to the
motors. For some reason, it would visibly spark sometimes as it went
around the track. After a while of this, it would make the room smell
like ozone. If you don't recall what that smells like, sometimes
during a lightning storm it will make the air smell like that.
Anyone here who works around electric fork lifts, do they produce
ozone to the effect that you can smell it? Those that have a DC EV,
have you ever smelt ozone that it produced? Or do neither of these
produce ozone from the brushes arcing?
Let's say everyone is cruising around in their brushed DC powered
cars(if they produce ozone). What would the effects be of creating
ozone at ground level.
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The manual for my Marathon BB600 cells warns, "Cell Vents should be Unlocked
During Charging". Am I correct that the cells vents actually are unlocked
all the time, whether charging or discharging, and that you lock them only
when you're doing some kind of maintenance on the cell (e.g., washing it).
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Mar 2005 at 13:59, Ken Olum wrote:
> Swapping the speed sensor and the
> controller did not fix it.
My first guess would have been the motor speed sensor, but you tried
changing that. Assuming the sensor gap is correct and the encoder wheel is
clean, I guess the only thing left to try is the motor.
>
> Is there a Force mailing list, or is this the right place to ask such
> questions?
There's a Force Yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
Looking at some posts there I see comments about motor bearing wear
possibly causing the encoder wheel to pull too far away from the speed
sensor, causing unreliable operation.
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I got my gas mask from a well thought of surplus guy! The fact is I now
driving around town daily in my Kia Sephia with a controller that has no
electronic parts that anyone could build for under $100. Perfect Control ,
good acceleration. Tonight I am going to try a contactor at the top end and
see how much of a jerk there is. I tried the contactor last night while
parked and there was just a slight rpm increase. Should be a nice transition
and the electrolyte won't get as hot. Go ahead and laugh, get it out of your
system. :) I timed my self in the 1/8 last night at 45 mph easy. And they
are right about just adding more plates for more amperage. I started out
with 2 plates for 150 amps, 4 plates gave me 300 amps. I now have 6 plates.
I am using eight Wal-Mart batteries. I just did my Kia conversion in about
80 hours for under $800. You just don't realize how many people there are
out there that really, really want to build an EV but can not afford to buy
these expensive controllers and such. I found a 15 inch, 2 foot long
forklift motor at a machine shop the other day for $300. When I get it in my
Kia, I will See ya at the track,
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
>At 1:07 PM -0600 3-17-05, Jack Knopf wrote:
You don't have to worry about that! I think I can get more that a
mere 2000 amps from one of my controllers.
Jack.
And...!? Were waiting with baited breath. Tell us what you're running!
Is it a contactor control? What batteries do you have?
It's starting to sound like fun when 2000 amps is "a mere 2000 amps". :-)
--
-Otmar-
Isn't Jack's the dipping-metal-plates-in-salt-water design that brought up
the
discussion of chlorine gas release? If that's the case, then the current
is
only limited by the size of plates you use (and the efficiency of your gas
mask).
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--- Begin Message ---
A local hard rock band has offered to play at our NEDRA Power of DC race
June 11 at the Mason Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown, Maryland.
So far it looks like a great race and there will be a lot of electrical
energy with the band to add to the excitement.
In addition to Wolfspider . . .
Darin Gilbert will be there with his record breaking Pirahna bike.
Brigham Young University will be there with their ultra-capacitor EV-1
West Virginia State University will be there with their Forumula One racer.
Great Mills High School will be there with their Green Hornet MR-2
. . . . And many more
If you would like to come out and race, join the fun, help or sponsor just
let me know.
Thanks,
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
NEDRA (website temporarily down for network repairs)
http://www.nedra.com
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm confused- how does the series to parallel switch happen and how
does it enhance motor power and amp consumption?
Thks
Rush
Tucson AZ
Hi Rush,
Here is a snippet from the EV list some time ago.
If this does not clarify things, then please let me know what is
missing and I'll try to answer it.
At 12:30 PM -0700 4-17-04, Otmar wrote:
OK. Let's think about this a bit. Why did Otmar chose to shift at
1/2 the peak amps (and are we talking battery or motor amps,
anyway?)?
Let's assume it is *motor* amps that determine the shift point. When
the motor amps drop to 600A in series mode, and the controller shifts
to parallel, the motor amps stay the *same* provided there is enough
battery voltage available to push the controller back into current
limit. RPM doesn't change instantaneously, so there is no stair step
in power; the shift to parallel just makes full pack voltage
available to each motor so that they can continue to build speed
while amps/torque continues to fall off.
I know Otmar is trying to follow this thread, so perhaps if I haven't
put him to sleep already he can chime in with a proper explanation of
how/why the 'Zilla implements series-parallel shifting...
Pretty much just as you said. I first had the shifting happen at a
certain adjustable RPM, but that's inefficient on the street and does
not compensate for battery temperature and state of charge, so I
devised the auto shift and left the option of a manual shift for
those who want to experiment.
When the Hairball is set to Autoshift mode it works like this:
It starts in series mode for maximum torque and for low controller
current in regular driving. Then when you put the pedal to the metal
the Hairball starts to pay attention.
In order to start a shift to parallel, the first requirement is that
the controller is at 100% duty cycle. (this is the right side of the
mountains shown below) This means the controller is full on the
battery amps equal the motor amps. If the controller is still acting
as a transmission then there would be no reason to switch the motors
yet since the resulting power would be less after the shift.
At this time, the motor and battery amps are dropping as the vehicle speeds up.
A simple way to view the HP to RPM curve of a series motor in a EV is
to imagine it as a upside down V. The upramp of the curve is the
controller in current limit, the downslope on the far side is when
the controller is full on and the motor BEMF is limiting power.
In order to maximize the power under the curve, I believe you want to
shift when the falling series curve of motor power vs rpm crosses the
rising curve of the motors in parallel. This turns out to be when the
series mode current is half of what is available after the shift.
Here's a bit of ASCII art, let's see if I can do this.
View with fixed width font like Courier.
| /\ / \
| / \ / \
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
^ ^ ^ ^ RPM ^
| | | | |
| | | | | BEMF limited, 100% DC on falling slope
| | | |
| | | | Parallel mode peak HP.
| | |
| | | Shift point (~ 50 mph in my car)
| |
| | Series mode peak HP
|
| Controller in current limit on upslope of curve
By the way, it's interesting to note that these curves are pretty
much the same as the power curves seen when shifting a mechanical
transmission.
Just FYI here are the same curves when the battery current limit is
lower than the motor current limit. The lower the battery current,
the less important the actual shift point timing becomes.
|
| ____ _________
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: Series-parallel switch
I'm confused- how does the series to parallel switch happen and how does
it enhance motor power and amp consumption?
Series-parallel battery switching can be done with contactors. Early EVs
used it before
electronic controllers were available. There's nothing series-parallel
switching of
batteries can do that can't be done much better with a modern controller.
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