EV Digest 4198
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DC DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Jacks EV was Re: Kilo-Amp-About or Excuses help the ego.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: another fan question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Just some trivia...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DC DC Converter
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Heat Dissipation Estimate
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: I Like ICE's
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: I Like ICE's
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Dual Charging
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Just some trivia...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Perf Upgrade using EV components
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Dual Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike wrote:
> I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the money to spend
> on a Sevcon or similar model, and need an inexpensive solution so
> I can drive my EV reliably.
The simplest solution is of course to use a big 12v battery, and just
recharge it at the same time you recharge the rest of your pack. But,
you mentioned you are driving a power steering pump from the 12v system.
That could easily make this impractical (too big a 12v battery would be
needed).
The other cheap solution is to install a normal car alternator, and belt
drive it from your traction motor. It will keep the 12v battery charged
just like any other car.
> It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer power supply
> could be used/ modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this work
> on a 90 volt battery pack?
No. 90 volts is too low for any normal switching supply designed for
120-240vac. The supply is likely to overheat and fail, deliver too
little power to be useful, or just not work at all.
Astrodyne (www.astrodyne.com, 1-800-823-8082) makes some relatively
inexpensive DC/DCs that you could consider. I've used their products
before, and they are of reasonable quality (though not automotive grade
-- they will die horribly if placed anywhere they could ever get wet or
dirty -- like under the hood of a car)!
model SD100D-12, 72-144vdc input, 12v at 8.5a output, $73 each
model SD150D-12, 72-144vdc input, 12v at 12.5a output, $83 each
model SD200D-12, 72-144vdc input, 12v at 16.7a output, $99 each
model SD350D-12, 72-144vdc input, 12v at 27.5a output, $129 each
These are specifically designed for a 90vdc input. If overloaded, they
deliver 105-135% of rated current, and then cycle on and off (pulse
mode) to protect themselves. The output voltage is adjustable, though I
would check with them to see how high it goes; you want at least 13.5v
for charging a 12v battery.
> I was hoping to find a (relatively) inexpensive computer power
> supply to temporarily replace my zorched DCP unit, but I can't
> seem to find any that are the universal input type?
We've discussed this before. Most computer power supplies are cheap, but
badly made, and too highly optimized for their intended purpose to work
as a battery charger. Maybe 1 in 10 is good enough to work at all if
your pack voltage is within the supply's normal input range. Maybe 1 in
100 will work if your pack voltage is outside this range. These are
pretty bad odds. It's not worth buying a supply unless you have solid
evidence that someone has already tried that specific model with your
specific pack voltage and that it worked.
Here are just some of the problems:
1. Not designed for outdoor use. They assumed a clean, dry, 70 deg.F
room; not under the hood of a car.
2. Limited input voltage range. "120-240vac" usually means 90-130vac
or 200-260vac, which is equivalent to 126-182vdc or 280-364vdc.
Such a supply won't work on 96vdc or 192vdc.
3. Many use a voltage doubler circuit on their input, which doesn't
work at all on DC. They don't specify this in the ratings; you
have to ask the design engineer, or test it yourself.
4. No overload protection. If overloaded (such as when it tries to
charge a dead battery), it blows a fuse or circuit breaker, or
shuts down and won't restart until you remove its input power.
5. The 12v outputs are not regulated. Most computer supplies only
regulate their 5v or 3.3v outputs; the other outputs are free to
wander around depending on load. Some won't work at all if you
have no load connected to the 5v or 3.3v output.
6. The 12v outputs aren't adjustable, or can't be adjusted to a
suitable voltage for a 12v battery. You need at least 13.5v to
fully charge a battery, and 14-14.5v is better if you want to
simulate a normal car's alternator.
7. The supply powers its regulating circuits from the 12v output,
so it runs down the 12v battery if left connected when the input
power is off.
All it takes are 1 or 2 of these problems to make a supply useless as a
DC/DC converter. Many cheap PC power supplies have *all* of these
problems. I certainly would not buy one on the assumption that it would
work.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Knopf wrote:
> I think you guys need to learn how to read. I said I could make one
> that would handle 2000 plus amps.
Yes, it's hard to read everything. People miss details sometimes. That's
why the more important points get reposted now and then on the EV list.
There are other possible reasons to consider an electrolytic controller
(fancy name for metal plates in a bucket of water. :-) You can use the
hot water for your heater. You could circulate the battery acid through
it so it heats the batteries (with lead acids, the hotter they get, the
better they perform). You could use it as a resistor for a crude battery
charger (with the resistor on the AC side of a bridge, it carries AC
current and so does not produce gas).
The idea is a bit crazy -- but not stupid! :-)
> Wouldn't a contactor controller be jerk, jerk, jerk?
Some are, some aren't. You'd be surprised how smooth a well made
contactor controller can be. The sticky accellerator linkage and
automatic transmission of a regular ICE car can be jerky, too. Most
people don't notice.
> Orbitals were always the plan, but my Wal-Marts are fine for now.
Yes, they are fine as "training wheel" batteries.
> Is not the world record for the 1/8 only 40 mph for the 96 volt
> class? Is www.nedra.com wrong?
I hope it's not that slow. If it is, then nobody has been trying very
hard!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Shelton wrote:
> I forgot to ask in my last post, how many CFM is sufficient to
> cool a 72v 6.7" adc being pushed with up to 600 amps.
This is a complicated question.
First, you need to know the motor's efficiency; this will be from 50-85%
depending on the speed, torque, and horsepower it is delivering. The
motor has a built-in fan, so if its rpm is high enough, no extra cooling
is needed.
Second, how LONG will it run at that power level? The motor is so heavy
that it can operate for many minutes with zero cooling; it just heats
up. Most EVs use motors only rated at 10-20 HP continuous duty, but get
50-100hp out of them for a few minutes at a time with no extra cooling.
Third, how hot is the ambient air? If your "cooling" air is already at
120 deg.F in Arizona, you need a lot more of it to cool a hot motor than
if it is at 70 deg.F.
Finally, CFM alone doesn't mean much for a fan. You need to know the CFM
at some air pressure. Propeller-type fans are very poor at pushing air
through the tight twisty passages inside a motor. A much smaller
centrifugal or squirrel-cage blower will actually provide much better
cooling.
A crude way to estimate the cooling power of a blower is by how much
electrical power it consumes. A squirrel-cage blower that uses about
100-200 watts is usually adequate for a car-sized EV motor.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> The Impact was the prototype predecessor to the EV-1, designed
> primarily by AeroVironment. Interestingly, the performance of the
> Impact seemed to diminish as it evolved into the EV-1.
Yes; it kept getting heavier and slower as GM "civilized" it. Here are a
few numbers from my files:
Impact#1 Impact#3 GM EV1
-------- -------- ------
date 1990 1993 1996
weight 2200 lbs 2970 lbs 3250 lbs
length 163" 165" 169.8"
height 47" 47.5" 50.5"
width 68" 68" 69.3"
drag coef. 0.185 0.19
accelleration 0-60 in 7 sec 0-60 in 8 sec 0-60 in 9 sec
top speed 110 mph 84.4 mph 80 mph
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My sentiments exactly.
What I am trying to do is to use the power steering motor and pump from
the forklift we are scrapping where I work. The motor is a 48 volt setup
and the pump is already attached.
The car I'm building will have at least a 150 volt pack so I need to
reduce the voltage or increase the operating voltage of the motor. If
the motor has four brushes can I reconnect them in series instead of
parallel to effectively double the operating voltage of the motor?
Mike G.
Evan Tuer wrote:
I would be inclined to use a PWM motor controller: more suited to the
job. However, one that will work on a 150V battery pack will be
expensive. Better to get the motor re-wound or changed to do the job
properly. If you're determined to use an electronic solution, pick up
a 48VDC, 50A universal input power supply from Ebay, this is a common
voltage since they are commonly used in telecomms equipment.
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:46:17 -0500, M.G. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Would it be possible to connect an fet to a duty cycle oscillator to
make a cheap dc-dc convertor? I would like to run a 48 volt power
steering pump from a forklift with a 150 volt battery pack.
So if I build a 555 timer with a 30% duty cycle could I connect it to
a large enough bank of fet's to run it safely? I think I would need
about 30 amps continuos 50 amp peak. Would this be more efficient than a
Mr2 power steering setup?
Mike G.
Rod Hower wrote:
Try this link,
http://www.peaktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanwell/sd-200.html
Pretty attractive pricing.
They also have the SD-350 which is 30 Amps output for
a small increase in price.
http://www.computronics.com.au/meanwell/sd-350/
Rod
--- Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the
money to spend on a
Sevcon or similar model, and need an inexpensive
solution so I can drive
my EV reliably.
It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer
power supply could be
used/ modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this
work on a 90 volt
battery pack? Does anybody have any suggestions/
instructions on how to
modify it. I am familiar with electronics, but not
that much with DC DC
converters. Also, does anybody have any experience
with Peak to Peack
Power DC DC converters
(http://www.peacktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanweel/sd-200.html)?
It
looks like it puts out about 16 amps on 90 volts,
and costs only about
$77.00.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is a 7-inch x 2-inch by 1/4-inch block of aluminum, with airflow on both
sides, enough to dissipate 130W? I've read that a good rule of thumb is 1
sq. centimeter of surface area per watt. If that's correct, then I need:
130sq.cm / 6.45sq.cm/sq.inch = 20sq.inch
If I count 14sq. inch on each side of the block, then I have 28 sq. inch.
Do those calculation sound correct?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes indeed, but the other day I read the story on the guy that rented the
EV1, and that made me happy, a car with range, and performance, and nice,
that does not make me sad, I think that NEDRA is in the right track, all the
innovations for ICE's came from racing, so let's race EV's , the pilots and
mechanics will figure out ways to meke them faster, lighter and have more
range.
You'll see, in the end it will be all EV's.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Bill Dennis
Enviado el: viernes, 18 de marzo de 2005 16:39
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: I Like ICE's
This reminds me of something a friend of mine told me a couple of weeks ago
when he was helping me weld the battery box for my EV conversion. He said,
"Electric cars make me sad."
I'd never heard that reaction before. But after reflecting on it, I think
he was coming from the same place as you mention.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gabriel Alarcon
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 12:33 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I Like ICE's
Boy, you've hit that nail right on the head. I too, as many other
Americans, have grown to love those muscle cars. Where does that love come
from though? I think it was when I was a kid, seeing those commercials on
tv and drooling over those cars. The media really worked and it has been
tough to get out of that love affair. I agree they will always be loved and
will one day be drooling over them at a museum.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivo Jara<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: I Like ICE's
I'm a fan of EV's, don't get me wrong, I think all transportation among
the
cities should be on ev's, regarding highway trips, there will be a
solution
either for charging times or for suppliying ev's with energy while they
run,
(a trolley or something, even microwave transmission of energy, who knows
?).
The fact is that I like AC cobras, Mustangs, Camaros, and to make it short
"Muscle Cars", but those do not harm the environment, most of them are in
garages, waiting for the weekend, for an ocational trip to a meet or to
the
mall, basically those are too costly to drive, (the car and the fuel)at 3
to
5 mpg, most people do not use them. Their owners do not take them out if
it
rains, there are serious insurance problems, and if damaged they can be
lost
forever.
So My view of the future is:
All EV for transportation, and ICE's in museums and private parties to
feast
our eyes (and ears) once in a while.
Regarding the ICE's used daily today, they will dissapear or be converted,
who would want a toyota in a museum ? :))
Well, Am I that wrong ????
Ivo.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's exactly what I mean, battery vapors can also sting your eyes abit,
but it will only happen in a badly ventilated area, and with lots of evs
toguether, or when you are peeking directly on a hot battery, so the thing
is, let's save the few oil left to feed those museum pieces, and stop
burning it pointlessly in ugly commuters which pollute anyway.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de bholmber
Enviado el: viernes, 18 de marzo de 2005 16:35
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: I Like ICE's
I have to agree with you guys on that one. But everything in moderation. The
reason I say that is I went to the Route 66 hotrod car show/festiva in San
Bernadino. I recall thinking everything was really cool watching all the big
american v8 cars and trucks parade by. Then my eyes started to burn from all
the raw exhaust.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gabriel Alarcon
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I Like ICE's
Boy, you've hit that nail right on the head. I too, as many other
Americans, have grown to love those muscle cars. Where does that love come
from though? I think it was when I was a kid, seeing those commercials on
tv and drooling over those cars. The media really worked and it has been
tough to get out of that love affair. I agree they will always be loved and
will one day be drooling over them at a museum.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivo Jara<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: I Like ICE's
I'm a fan of EV's, don't get me wrong, I think all transportation among
the
cities should be on ev's, regarding highway trips, there will be a
solution
either for charging times or for suppliying ev's with energy while they
run,
(a trolley or something, even microwave transmission of energy, who knows
?).
The fact is that I like AC cobras, Mustangs, Camaros, and to make it short
"Muscle Cars", but those do not harm the environment, most of them are in
garages, waiting for the weekend, for an ocational trip to a meet or to
the
mall, basically those are too costly to drive, (the car and the fuel)at 3
to
5 mpg, most people do not use them. Their owners do not take them out if
it
rains, there are serious insurance problems, and if damaged they can be
lost
forever.
So My view of the future is:
All EV for transportation, and ICE's in museums and private parties to
feast
our eyes (and ears) once in a while.
Regarding the ICE's used daily today, they will dissapear or be converted,
who would want a toyota in a museum ? :))
Well, Am I that wrong ????
Ivo.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me get this straight, there are still people who have EV1's and the
leases are functioning ?????
If so, i would think of having someone steal the car, stuff it in a
container, and send it overseas for the reverse engeneering, then once it's
done, just send the pieces back (really do not have to, leases have great
insurances).
Extradition is not an option, car theft is a serious crime, but not
international.
And the point is not getting caught is it ?
Btw this is done everyday with mercedes, rolls and BMW, why not an EV1 ?
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Bill Dennis
Enviado el: viernes, 18 de marzo de 2005 16:36
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
Well, if it's true, then find one of the owners close to the end of his
lease. Have members of the EVDL go down and take the thing apart to reverse
engineer. Then the owner can tell GM to come pick up the pieces at the end
of the lease. :)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 12:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
Anyone else see this or know anything about this short blurb in the
3/17/2005 AZ Republic page B4, bottom right quarter? I am assuming it is a
complete mis-statement by the normally misguided and inaccurate staffers but
I want to make sure. I figure it is some cross confuguliation of the normal
Phoenix EAA meeting that is normally held on the 3 Sat, but it is funny how
it plays right into GMs mis-information campaign.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Electric cars join show in Pavilions parking lot
SCOTTSDALE- See the automotive equivalent of a dinosaur Saturday in the
McDonald's parking lot at the Pavilions, Pima and Indian Bend Roads. Members
of the Electric Auto Association-Phoenix Chapter will start gathering with
their EV-1s at about 2 PM and will be available to talk about their cars
from 4 PM until dark. Unlike most of the classic cars in the lot, the EV-1s
on display are relatively new, the product of a four-year GM experiment with
electric cars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Hmm, if this is true I want to know as although I have a lot going on
tomorrow I will dump EVerything and be there.
Hope the EV-1s are securely looked after, everyone here in Phx knows how
many cars are stolen every day and end up south of the border, never to be
heard of or seen again. I wonder what a mini storage in Sonora goes for?
David Chapman.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> I thought of going to manual steering, but will not.
> I have several reasons for this, one relating to EV PR.
Understood. If the car came with power steering, you should probably
keep it power steering. Manual steering only works for small light
vehicles that were designed for manual steering originally.
If you're going to add a lot of battery weight up front, then it might
even be advantageous to add power steering even if the vehicle didn't
have it to begin with. For example, my LeCar came with manual steering,
but I added a couple hundred pounds up front. My wife complains that it
is hard to steer.
However, you don't have to run the power steering off the 12v system.
You can belt drive it from the traction motor, like all other cars. Or,
use a high voltage DC motor to run it directly from the propulsion pack;
this would be more efficient anyway.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I wasn't planning on 120V bulbs. For the 13A portion, for
> example, what about 13 12V automotive bulbs in parallel at 1A
> each? That's 13A * 12V = 156W. For the 8A string: 8A * 13V
> = 104W, making 260W total.
The problem will be the difference between the starting and ending
voltages of the two packs.
Your string of 35 TS cells could be 126V (3.6V/cell) at rest fully
discharged, and 149V (4.25V/cell) fully charged; this is a swing of 23V.
The 96-cell NiCd string could be 96V (1.0V/cell) fully discharged and
149V (1.55V/cell) at end of charge; this is a swing of 53V.
You would set the PFC30 for 149V, and assuming it runs current limited
to start, its output voltage will be that of the battery which it is
directly connected to. If the NiCd and LiIon strings start out at
voltages that differ by more than about 14V, your 12V current-limiting
bulbs will blow.
If you are draining the packs in parallel, so that they will start at
the same voltage, then your max swing is just the 23V of the TS pack.
Worst case is that the directly connected pack charges up more quickly
than the light-bulb connected one so that the voltage across the bulbs
exceeds their safe rating and they blow.
Either your control strategy needs to monitor the voltage drop across
the bulbs and switch bulbs in/out to adjust the charge rate so that the
packs come up together and the voltage across the bulbs never exeeds
their rated voltage, or you need to use bulbs that are rated for at
least the 23V worst case difference.
If you can ensure that the voltage difference between the packs can be
held to no more than about 13V, then a possibility is 8 1157 dual
filament tail light bulbs. The bright filament draws about 2.1A and the
dimmer filament about 0.59A, so with all filaments lit you have about
21A. Turn off all the dim filaments and 4 of the bright ones to reduce
the current limit to 8A. Use the long life (LL) version to avoid having
to change bulbs too frequently.
An alternative scheme would be to connect the NiCds directly to the
charger at the start, and use bulbs to limit the current to the TS cells
to about 9A. This makes sense for two reasons, one is that the NiCds
could be at a much lower starting voltage, and this scheme would limit
the voltage that needs to be handled by the bulbs. It also reduces the
energy you waste in the bulbs since you are now dissipating 8A @ xV
instead of 21A. Worst case is that the NiCds initially get the full 30A
charge current until they come up sufficiently in voltage that the TS
string starts to draw current, but this is not a problem for them.
Once you detect that the NiCd string is at the desired voltage, switch a
string of bulbs between it and the charger to limit current to ~8A, and
bypass the bulbs in series with the TS string so it gets the full
balance of the PFCxx output.
A possibility here is to use a pair of 9007 or H13 halogen dual beam
headlights, which are rated 55W (4.3A) on low beam and 65W (5.1A) on
high beam. Connect them so that the paralleled low beams are in series
with the NiCd pack and the paralleled high beams are in series with the
TS pack. Use a SPDT relay with its common connected to the charger
output, its NC contact to the NiCd side of the low beams, and its NO
contact to the TS side of the high beam filaments.
Starting with the relay off, the NiCd string is connected directly to
the charger and the TS string is connected via the pair of high beam
filaments. The TS string charges at a maximum of about 10A and the
NiCds get at least 20A. When the NiCds reach the desired voltage
threshold, energise the relay and the NiCd pack becomes connected to the
charger via the pair of low beam filaments and charges at about 8A max.
As soon as the NO contacts close, the TS string becomes directly
connected to the charger and charges at 22A minimum.
Since the relay voltage across the relay will "never" exceed the voltage
of the bulbs (~13V), you can use a relatively inexpensive 12V SPDT
automotive relay rated for at least 30A.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, that's my man, get them to mexico !
Have their owners drive them to mexico, and put them on storage, then return
and say they were stolen, if someone finds them, bad luck, but it will buy
time to copy them, then the factory can be started in singapore, (no patent
law there), you can even buy apple computers made by someone else.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de David Chapman
Enviado el: viernes, 18 de marzo de 2005 15:07
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
Anyone else see this or know anything about this short blurb in the
3/17/2005 AZ Republic page B4, bottom right quarter? I am assuming it is a
complete mis-statement by the normally misguided and inaccurate staffers but
I want to make sure. I figure it is some cross confuguliation of the normal
Phoenix EAA meeting that is normally held on the 3 Sat, but it is funny how
it plays right into GMs mis-information campaign.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Electric cars join show in Pavilions parking lot
SCOTTSDALE- See the automotive equivalent of a dinosaur Saturday in the
McDonald's parking lot at the Pavilions, Pima and Indian Bend Roads. Members
of the Electric Auto Association-Phoenix Chapter will start gathering with
their EV-1s at about 2 PM and will be available to talk about their cars
from 4 PM until dark. Unlike most of the classic cars in the lot, the EV-1s
on display are relatively new, the product of a four-year GM experiment with
electric cars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Hmm, if this is true I want to know as although I have a lot going on
tomorrow I will dump EVerything and be there.
Hope the EV-1s are securely looked after, everyone here in Phx knows how
many cars are stolen every day and end up south of the border, never to be
heard of or seen again. I wonder what a mini storage in Sonora goes for?
David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Good stuff, Lee.
Lee Hart wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> > The Impact was the prototype predecessor to the EV-1, designed
> > primarily by AeroVironment. Interestingly, the performance of the
> > Impact seemed to diminish as it evolved into the EV-1.
>
> Yes; it kept getting heavier and slower as GM "civilized" it. Here are a
> few numbers from my files:
> Impact#1 Impact#3 GM EV1
> -------- -------- ------
> date 1990 1993 1996
> weight 2200 lbs 2970 lbs 3250 lbs
> length 163" 165" 169.8"
> height 47" 47.5" 50.5"
> width 68" 68" 69.3"
> drag coef. 0.185 0.19
> accelleration 0-60 in 7 sec 0-60 in 8 sec 0-60 in 9 sec
> top speed 110 mph 84.4 mph 80 mph
I've seen much better numbers for the '96 EV1. Motor Trend tested a Panasonic
lead acid
equipped EV1 at 0-60 in 7.6 seconds.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gabriel Alarcon wrote:
> I am looking to enhance the performance of my Mitsu Fuso truck
> weighing in at 11,300 lbs loaded...
On something this heavy, I don't think I'd try any kind of friction
drive. Instead, I'd look at hydraulic motors. You can probably find a
hydraulic motor that would mount in the drive shaft (i.e. has a shaft on
each end; one drive shaft connects from the transmission to the
hydraulid motor, and a second drive shaft from the hydraulic motor to
the differential). Add an electric motor and hydraulic pump from a
forklift, and an accumulator (hydraulic pressure storage tank) and you
should be in business.
For regen braking, the hydraulic motor would work as a pump, storing
braking energy as hydraulic pressure in the accumulator. For
accellerating, use this pressure to aid accelleration. The lift motor
would be run as needed to pressurize the accumulator and/or drive the
hydraulic motor.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have a chemistry hand book, look up the energy tables for different
elements and compounds.
You will note that water it self or H2O does not have near the energy that
Hydrogen and Oxygen has when in its separate elements.
Also note the calculation for energy that it takes to electrolyze amount of
water to produce amount of hydrogen and oxygen.
You will note that this is true for separation of many types of compounds into
there separated elements which will have more energy by them selfs.
In are experiments, we use a fuel cell that has 55 nickel plates of 100 square
inches each on both sides. The start up was from a deep cell battery that
deliver 50 amps at 12 volts to a DC-DC converter that transform it to 120 amps
at 5 volts to some of the plates. Many plates were not connected and just was
floating, but by conduction, still produce hydrogen and oxygen. This type of
plate connections reduce the amount of energy needed.
If we connected all the plates up, yes, it would take too much power from the
battery or the large inverter-alternator which was transfer from the battery to
alternator.
The fuel cell was not large, we are just making enough H and 2O for the engine
to used. We can adjust the amount of fuel being made by adjusting the field
and regulator circuit from the dash, so as to tune it just right.
After this adjustment was completed, then the energy output from the
inverter-alternator varies to the consumption of the fuel is need.
The amount of hydrogen and oxygen that was needed is about 64 cubic inches of
water, that would instantly disappear into the gases at full 1200 watts of
energy. After initial start up of 1200 watts, than the inverter-alternator
would drop this back to about 200 to 300 watts at idle.
We had to time the engine to about 1 degree over top dead center to keep it
running at 600 rpm. The spark plugs would start to foal out from too much
water, so we tried different gaps and used a high voltage pulse ignition system
that detects low resistance and increases that spark plug voltage until it
clears it.
After a while, the cylinders would get so wet, that we had to clear it out with
propane. The engine we used this system on, was a GM 350 Cu.In. that had a
propane setup on it. It was easy to transfer from propane to hydrogen and back
again to do these test.
We knew that this amount of water in this type of 4 cycle engine was not good.
On some startups, we would get a tremendous knocking of the rods against the
bearings on the crankshaft, because this type of engine starts up at too much
advance. It finally took out the mains.
It would be better, if a turbine engine was used for this type of fuel.
Roland
Then it was
----- Original Message -----
From: Harris, Lawrence<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
Where do you get the energy to split they water into H2 and O?
Seems to be a negative energy system still if this is done onboard and on
demand.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: March 18, 2005 1:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
The British motorbike fuel-cell article, does not mention how the hydrogen
and oxygen is produce. It may be of the type that is produced on board with
a fuel cell that splits water with a electrolyte of KOH or the Element
Palladium with Platinum electrodes to Hydrogen and Oxygen on demand as the
engine needs it.
I received some data on this a week ago, and I will be receiving more data
and will post any new data as I received it.
The engine is normally not a 4 stroke type, as where the compression stroke
is not needed. Hydrogen and Oxygen when injected into a standard 4 stroke
with 1 oz of Hydrogen to 8 oz of Oxygen directly to the intake value sets
cannot have any advance at all, the ignition of the spark plug is done just
over top dead center, or you will take out the crank shaft bearings.
I KNOW THIS, BECAUSE OUR TEAM EXPERIMENT WITH ONBOARD FUEL CELLS THAT MAKE
HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN ON DEMAND!!!!
The standard engine is not ideal for a hydrogen-oxygen fuel system. You do
not need a compression and exhaust stroke. The hydrogen-oxygen has about
550,000 btus of energy per gallon of water compare to gasoline which has
115,000 btus per gallon.
Then there is the problem of blow by when the hydrogen and oxygen is
ignited, it makes water and if your pistons rings has gaps it it, it will
diluted the oil in a oil sump.
You can get around this by using no-gap piston rings and a oil seperator. A
motorbike engine uses a oil tank out side the engine. Here you can collect
the water in a separated sump at the bottom of the engine.
A small turbine engine would work. Using a exhaust driven turbine charger
should work.
With this type of fuel system, you do not need any storage of hydrogen or
oxygen or delivery systems for it.
This is the drawback that everybody is talking about, but this eliminates
that step in the process.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Lussmyer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: EV Discussion
List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 7:43 AM
Subject: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
Discussion on Slashdot:
horza has posted a comment in reply to your comment.
Re:Another Fool Cell
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320<http://slashdot.org/<http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320<http://slashdot.org/>
comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320>
I just don't have my materials handy, and don't have the time right now.
--
John G. Lussmyer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/<http://www.casadelgato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The problem will be the difference between the starting and ending
> voltages of the two packs.
>
> Your string of 35 TS cells could be 126V (3.6V/cell) at rest fully
> discharged, and 149V (4.25V/cell) fully charged; this is a swing of 23V.
>
> The 96-cell NiCd string could be 96V (1.0V/cell) fully discharged and
> 149V (1.55V/cell) at end of charge; this is a swing of 53V.
>
Just the thread I need to comment on! I have a 48V Hawker pack in the eLamby
(48v-->52v), and intend to put a number of paralleled 15-cell li-ion packs
(45v-->63v) on the back as an auxillary pack. I have a 3-output 600w power
supply for charging: the first 2 in series puts out 57.8V, while the last one
is set to 5.8V. I want to isolate the li-ion pack when charging at 63.6V, with
the Pb pack getting the 57.8V output. When the scooter is turned on, the
charger is disconnected from the Pb and the Li pack gets paralleled with the Pb
pack. The 63V --> 52V difference will only occur in use (where the Li pack is
not expected to put out the 330A the controller needs, just keep the Pb "topped
up"). I have a portable 900w charger to attach on top of the Li container as a
range extender which can be running even when the scooter is in use (i.e. 63.6V
output feeding both packs) - since that's less than 10A, I figure it to be
enough to keep me at even SOC at 25-30mph, but I won't use it when parked
(close to 16V per Hawker seems a little much). Input requested from the sages
of the list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok so this is not a closed system. You are putting energy in via a
pre-charged battery or a mains supply. I had initially read this as
intended to be a practical way to store hydrogen to supply a combustion
engine not just as a lab experiment.
Sorry, Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: March 18, 2005 4:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
If you have a chemistry hand book, look up the energy tables for different
elements and compounds.
You will note that water it self or H2O does not have near the energy that
Hydrogen and Oxygen has when in its separate elements.
Also note the calculation for energy that it takes to electrolyze amount of
water to produce amount of hydrogen and oxygen.
You will note that this is true for separation of many types of compounds
into there separated elements which will have more energy by them selfs.
In are experiments, we use a fuel cell that has 55 nickel plates of 100
square inches each on both sides. The start up was from a deep cell battery
that deliver 50 amps at 12 volts to a DC-DC converter that transform it to
120 amps at 5 volts to some of the plates. Many plates were not connected
and just was floating, but by conduction, still produce hydrogen and oxygen.
This type of plate connections reduce the amount of energy needed.
If we connected all the plates up, yes, it would take too much power from
the battery or the large inverter-alternator which was transfer from the
battery to alternator.
The fuel cell was not large, we are just making enough H and 2O for the
engine to used. We can adjust the amount of fuel being made by adjusting
the field and regulator circuit from the dash, so as to tune it just right.
After this adjustment was completed, then the energy output from the
inverter-alternator varies to the consumption of the fuel is need.
The amount of hydrogen and oxygen that was needed is about 64 cubic inches
of water, that would instantly disappear into the gases at full 1200 watts
of energy. After initial start up of 1200 watts, than the
inverter-alternator would drop this back to about 200 to 300 watts at idle.
We had to time the engine to about 1 degree over top dead center to keep it
running at 600 rpm. The spark plugs would start to foal out from too much
water, so we tried different gaps and used a high voltage pulse ignition
system that detects low resistance and increases that spark plug voltage
until it clears it.
After a while, the cylinders would get so wet, that we had to clear it out
with propane. The engine we used this system on, was a GM 350 Cu.In. that
had a propane setup on it. It was easy to transfer from propane to hydrogen
and back again to do these test.
We knew that this amount of water in this type of 4 cycle engine was not
good. On some startups, we would get a tremendous knocking of the rods
against the bearings on the crankshaft, because this type of engine starts
up at too much advance. It finally took out the mains.
It would be better, if a turbine engine was used for this type of fuel.
Roland
Then it was
----- Original Message -----
From: Harris, Lawrence<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
Where do you get the energy to split they water into H2 and O?
Seems to be a negative energy system still if this is done onboard and on
demand.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: March 18, 2005 1:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
The British motorbike fuel-cell article, does not mention how the hydrogen
and oxygen is produce. It may be of the type that is produced on board
with
a fuel cell that splits water with a electrolyte of KOH or the Element
Palladium with Platinum electrodes to Hydrogen and Oxygen on demand as the
engine needs it.
I received some data on this a week ago, and I will be receiving more data
and will post any new data as I received it.
The engine is normally not a 4 stroke type, as where the compression
stroke
is not needed. Hydrogen and Oxygen when injected into a standard 4 stroke
with 1 oz of Hydrogen to 8 oz of Oxygen directly to the intake value sets
cannot have any advance at all, the ignition of the spark plug is done
just
over top dead center, or you will take out the crank shaft bearings.
I KNOW THIS, BECAUSE OUR TEAM EXPERIMENT WITH ONBOARD FUEL CELLS THAT MAKE
HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN ON DEMAND!!!!
The standard engine is not ideal for a hydrogen-oxygen fuel system. You
do
not need a compression and exhaust stroke. The hydrogen-oxygen has about
550,000 btus of energy per gallon of water compare to gasoline which has
115,000 btus per gallon.
Then there is the problem of blow by when the hydrogen and oxygen is
ignited, it makes water and if your pistons rings has gaps it it, it will
diluted the oil in a oil sump.
You can get around this by using no-gap piston rings and a oil seperator.
A
motorbike engine uses a oil tank out side the engine. Here you can
collect
the water in a separated sump at the bottom of the engine.
A small turbine engine would work. Using a exhaust driven turbine charger
should work.
With this type of fuel system, you do not need any storage of hydrogen or
oxygen or delivery systems for it.
This is the drawback that everybody is talking about, but this eliminates
that step in the process.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John G.
Lussmyer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: EV Discussion
List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 7:43 AM
Subject: Anyone want to reply to a Fool Cell supporter?
Discussion on Slashdot:
horza has posted a comment in reply to your comment.
Re:Another Fool Cell
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320<http://slashdot.org/
<http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320<http://slashdot.org
/>
comments.pl?sid=142856&cid=11974320>
I just don't have my materials handy, and don't have the time right now.
--
John G. Lussmyer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
saDelGato.Com<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/<http://www.casadelgat
o.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>>
--- End Message ---
