EV Digest 4222
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) New Groups confusion
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New To Group
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Let's cut each other some slack, OK?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Next step for Sunrise discussion, new company formation
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Invitation to EVProduction Group
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New To Group
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New To Group
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Invitation to EVProduction Group
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) MO EVr newbie: New To Group
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Groups confusion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Monaco EVS-21
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New To Group
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Next step for Sunrise discussion, new company formation
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Next step for Sunrise discussion, new company formation
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: American business model
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Opp's, was Re: New Groups confusion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: American business model
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Ford rep on Talk of the Nation NOW
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I just subscribed to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVProduction/. Great, good
for Jerry for taking the step.
I also just got an email from Mark Dodrill, I'll quote only the first 2
paragraphs
"Hello all. As I posted to the mail EV e-mail list, I have taken
another step in the process to make a commercial EV a reality. I got
your e-mail address from the EV list, as being interested in this
topic. If you really aren't, please send e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with your unsubscribe request.
I have registered the domain name evconsortium.org, and setup a
message board to help us start things out. Please go to
http://evconsortium.org/Invision and register to get access to the
board. I have set up a bunch of forums on various topics that relate
to starting this new venture."
I guess that this is also a new group, is that correct? I also see that he has
signed me up without my even being aware of the group, this is basically called
email harvesting. This is not an email based group, you have to go to a web
page, it is a commercial board and it puts a cookie on your computer.
Did others get emails from him saying that you have to unsubscribe if you don't
want to be get the unsolicited emails?
Rush
Tucson AZ
converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
>I am in MO and am new to the group.
Welcome. Where at in Missouri are you from? Happen to be in
the St. Louis area by any chance? I'm doing a conversion and
would love to help with yours or at the very least get in
touch with another building an EV. I may need some help
myself later on anyway, so having another building an EV
near me would be a great way to learn some info and gain
some skills.
>I am committed to converting a vehicle to
>EV and only drive 20 miles total per day on average
>(work 3 miles away). It
>sounds perfect for me.
There's the amount of range you need, which is 20 miles per
day, and the amount of range you'd want. It seems you'd be
satisfied with 20 miles to 80% depth of discharge, but how
much would you like to have that's in a reasonable range of
possibility for the money you're looking to put out?
It shouldn't be too hard to get 40-50 miles to 80% depth of
discharge with about 35% of the car in battery weight and
good aerodynamics.
Would you like to have a little extra range for longer
trips?
>I am certainly looking for recommendations about the
>best vehicles to convert.
>I have looked at some websites but it seems a lot of
>the older cars like VW
>rabbits, etc. are not very available any longer. The
>GEO seems to be a popular
>vehicle as does the S10 pickup.
Looking at your later post and finding you're using a kit,
assuming your controller is picked and it's a Curtis Model,
then you're probably going to want something light to have
adequate acceleration. With 20 miles range desired,
aerodynamics wouldn't be a huge issue with say, a 108V pack
of flooded 6V Trojan T105 flooded lead acid batteries. You'd
have about 40 miles range to 80% discharge with such a pack
in a VW Bug, but your performance would be sluggish given a
low amp controller and such low power batteries. 0-60 = or >
22 seconds and a curb weight of about 2,800 pounds.
OR if you want something a little peppier, assuming a 500
amp controller, use 144V of Optima Yellowtops in that same
VW Bug, 0-60 would be about 17-18 seconds, curb weight about
2,300 pounds, and range a good 20-25 miles to 80% depth of
discharge. But that would require a more sophisticated
charger to take care of the batteries, probably didn't come
with your kit.
Go from a Curtis, to say, a Zilla 1k, with that same 144V
pack of Optima Yellowtops, you'd have 0-60 in about 8-9
seconds and still 20-25 miles range with 80% discharge under
moderate driving, 10-15 miles to 80% with lead foot.
An entry level Zilla 1k can go to 156V, so it would be
possible to add a mile or two with another battery, OR use
instead a slightly pricier 300V Zilla and have amazing
performance with a 192V or so pack of Optimas. Your curb
weight would go to about 2,600 pounds or so, and range would
be an honest 35 miles or so to 80% depth of discharge in a
VW Bug.
In place of a bug, you could place a Geo Metro, Chevy
Sprint, Ford Fiesta, or cars of similar weight and achieve
similar performance. Those are for econoboxes that go for
cheap, which would fit your $5-7k goal.
If you want a two seater, as opposed to a four-seater, a
sports car may be better if you're willing to go for AGMs.
You could make a performance vehicle. Want range? Either
build a sports car with about 40% its weight in batteries,
OR do a pickup with about 50% of its weight in batteries.
The sports car will be more efficient by far, but the pickup
would cost less and go just a little farther. Making a car
with 40% its weight in batteries will probably go above that
$5-7k goal you have in mind though. Flooded batteries in a
sports car make a slug, and you may as well use a Geo Metro
or VW Bug for that purpose since those usually have higher
GVWRs.
One thing: you want to try to stay under GVWR for
simplicity's sake, but it is still ok to go over by a few
hundred pounds with modifications to brakes and suspension.
Sports cars generally have a low GVWR compared to other
vehicles of similar weights. However, there are some great
exceptions. My Triumph GT6 weighs only 1,793 pounds, but has
a GVWR of 2,350 pounds. With a 400 pound engine block, 70
pounds of related ICE engine components, and lots of weight
elsewhere to be stripped, I could fit an 800-900 pound
battery pack and not go over GVWR, including my own weight
as driver, or fit a monster 1,125 pound pack of Optimas only
going a few hundred pounds over, assuming I have enough
volume to fit such a thing in(Looks possible, but need to
keep safety in mind before knowing for sure). Find a car
that meets your goals.
Cheap $5-7k? Floodeds and an econobox of sorts would be your
best bet, but don't be afraid to be creative and try AGMs or
higher power if you could fit it in your budget. Lord knows
we could use more performers and less slugs on the road. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/23/2005 1:12:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Very well put. I agree totally!
Ben
<< David,
John De Armond does NOT need to be removed from the list. If you read the
post you so like to snip attacks from you will notice that he is talking
about the public perception of a significant part of the population
(something near 1/2 if elections are any indication.)
I find that this list is *very* quick to attack opinions to the right and
quite slow to remind list memebers to keep in line when they veer into
politics on the left. This creates an artificial EV enviroment that does not
refect the greater public opinion of our EVs.
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:26:32 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone.
> This is to announce the formation of the
> EVProduction Group to get EV's on the road by
> encouraging, helping EV production to get started.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:30:16 -0800, Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All, to help take the "next step", as Lee Hart has pointed out, I have
> created a new domain name (evconsortium.org), web site, and message
> board to move the Sunrise discussion and general new ev discussion to
> the next step.
I'm confused :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folks, After driving/owning a bunch of EV's since the 70's, the best
production vehicle would be a cheap KIS cheese-wedge type 2-seater Kewet car
that uses a minimal number of batteries (maintenance) and is a DC system
where cost is hammered down. The Toyota ECOM was the best I've seen in
years that looked affordable/producible.
Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Invitation to EVProduction Group
>
> Hi All,
> Could members of the other EV groups like
> Force-EV, EV-1, Rav-4 EV, ect please post this to your
> groups and let me know either off line or on the new
> list?
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
> Hi Everyone.
> This is to announce the formation of the
> EVProduction Group to get EV's on the road by
> encouraging, helping EV production to get started.
> It's obvious that the Auto companies are not
> going to do it so we must do it ourselves.
> If you are tired of the status quo and want
> to help get this going, please join the group below.
>
> You can access the group's web features using the
> link below.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVProduction/
>
> Thank you,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: New To Group
Mark Ward wrote:
I am in MO and am new to the group.
Welcome. Where at in Missouri are you from? Happen to be in
the St. Louis area by any chance? I'm doing a conversion and
would love to help with yours or at the very least get in
touch with another building an EV. I may need some help
myself later on anyway, so having another building an EV
near me would be a great way to learn some info and gain
Thanks for the feedback. I am in St. Charles, MO.
It will take me a while to absorb all the info, and I am still deciding on a
"donor" for the project. Wife says to stick to nicer car that we can keep
for a while. I am liking the conversions I am seeing from Honda Civics,
the Geo being a smaller car.
:-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a very nice vehicle. I looked at the photos. I plan to park my
Ranger when I am not driving the EV, and need the truck really for hauling
only.
Best of luck, and I am sure it will sell, certainly if gas hits $3.00 a
gallon!
:-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: New To Group
BTW My Solectria e-10 (below) is an AC drive!
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: New To Group
I saw the post. I already have a Ford Ranger with low mileage and don't
want another truck. I believe my cost to convert will ultimately be a
lot
less since I am not buying a "kit" and can make a lot of the parts. I
believe $5-7K is probably more accurate.
Besides, I would miss all the fun!
:-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: New To Group
Have you been watching the recent posts that one of the EVDL members is
selling his electric truck in the Kansas City area? $12,000 is not much
more than what you'd be spending one a conversion anyway, probably.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:49 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: New To Group
Thanks Bob Bath & Others too!
Bob, I enjoyed the ppt presentation.
I have been sucking up the info like crazy. Interestingly I am also a
teacher and work in a vocational career center with a lot of resouces and
resourceful people. MO as always is behind the curve in alternative
technology and at the License bureau the other day I got a blank stare
when
I asked how EV's are licensed.
My best neighbor friend is going to take me to the auto auction where
hopefully I can find a good donor car. He tells me one's with blown
engines, oil puddlers, etc. with nice bodys are available cheap, so we
will
see what happens.
In my case I am able to fabricate or weld most of the metal hardware,
have
the advantage of a body shop (which I will avoid by getting a better car)
and my background in EE will certainly be an asset.
---------------Questions---------------
A question for Bob....is there a motor adaptor premade for the 92-95
Civic
or would I need to get one machined? I really like these cars and
believe
my wife would as well. (have to keep her happy)
A question for anyone.....How do you get the AC to run? I notice some
cars
have it. It would seem to me even a double-shaft drive motor would not
maintain enough speed to keep the compressor running adequately. Other
methods would seem power hungry.
Also to anyone. I have a good source for marine deep cycle batteries.
Electro battery is near where I live. I can get some Deep cycles in 105
or
better AH. Is anyone using these? I haven't run the math (will do when
time comes) since I haven't picked the car, motor, etc, yet, so I am
looking
for experience, cost, lifespan, and so on with the various types of
batts.
My driving is going to average no more than 20-25 miles per day, mostly
local.
----------------------------------------
The wiring and other issues seem simple enough, and I have pulled enough
wiring diagrams and tech specs on a lot of the hardware already to
determine
that won't be a problem. Another friend works for a large industrial
motor
company in STL, and is going to see if he can hook me up with an Advanced
8"
So I am pretty much in the acquiring stage at this time, both info and as
things develop, the parts.
Thanks all!
---- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: New To Group
Welcome to the group!
My thing happens to be '92-95 Civics. High GVWR,
cute, airbag & safe roll cage, and they lend
themselves to going to electric rather nicely for a
few reasons; low cost donor vehicles/age being one of
them.
If you choose this model, I have an online journal
which would save you many hours of brainstorming
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html and click
the link at the bottom.
I can also provide a video for $12 incl. S&H that
would be well worth it.
Best of luck with your project!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Howdy Folks, After driving/owning a bunch of EV's
> since the 70's, the best
> production vehicle would be a cheap KIS cheese-wedge
> type 2-seater Kewet car
> that uses a minimal number of batteries
> (maintenance) and is a DC system
> where cost is hammered down. The Toyota ECOM was
> the best I've seen in
> years that looked affordable/producible.
> Mark www.solectrol.com
I agree on most of this except that it's just as
easy and a very little more in cash to make a faster,
more crash worthy, hiway capable 2 seat EV as they all
need the same materials and the same labor to build.
So I'd go for more utility and better resale value.
I've always looked at the NEV's and wondered why
for the same costs they couldn't make a real hiway EV.
Already 20 members in the new EVProduction list.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 AM
> Subject: Invitation to EVProduction Group
>
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> > Could members of the other EV groups
> like
> > Force-EV, EV-1, Rav-4 EV, ect please post this to
> your
> > groups and let me know either off line or on the
> new
> > list?
> > Thanks,
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Everyone.
> > This is to announce the formation of the
> > EVProduction Group to get EV's on the road by
> > encouraging, helping EV production to get started.
> > It's obvious that the Auto companies are
> not
> > going to do it so we must do it ourselves.
> > If you are tired of the status quo and
> want
> > to help get this going, please join the group
> below.
> >
> > You can access the group's web features using the
> > link below.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVProduction/
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources
> site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/36299 ]
Hi Mark,
>From the POSTs from the thread you started, it reads like you have
not finalized on what vehicle type fits your family's needs.
I encourage you to 'take your time' do not jump in with a purchase
until you have researched all your options, and have all the facts.
An EV ownership is a long commitment. Peter is right to state you
should have the vehicle type you like and it be in good condition.
Take a look at the http://evalbum.com site for EV specs and techie
ratings. This will give you some idea of what it possible.
Also look at what EVs are currently for sale. The are links to the
EVsforSale pages on the EAA site http://eaaev.org
You might be one of the type that 'Loves' to do your own
conversion (get greasy and skin your knuckles). But one does not
'have-to' build their own EV.
There are quite a few nice EVs for sale that are going for pennies
on the dollar (of what was put into them). It is a better deal to
buy a used EV than to build your own. But you enjoy building, that
is great too.
Getting into the techie details of what motor, controller, pack
voltage, etc. is exciting. But, I have found most people have to
use their other set of brains (the ones in their butt, they need
to sit in the EV) to know how an EV feels, and which configuration
and donor vehicle type fits their needs/desires. I encourage you
to ride/drive the EVs in your area.
Look at the Mid-America EAA (Kansas/Missouri) Chapter site
http://maeaa.org and get to know them. Both you and your wife can
ride/drive in their EVs, and 'feel' what EV performance and body
types they drive. Besure to get EV driving experience before you
commit to an EV design/body type.
Since I have not seen any public charging listings for MO on the
EV charging maps, you should find out where you will be charging
at.
As a charging nut (I have six chargers in my Blazer EV), I have
some experience to offer. I recommend you do not go-cheap on the
charger.
I do not recommend a bad-boy, light-dimmer or other main's or dumb
charger. You want a charger that you really can set it, and then
forget it. You want a smart charger that has at least a three
stage charging algorithm.
I have found the charger I currently own, a PFC-30, to be the best
of all the available chargers. It can run on either 110 or 240 VAC
(thus one charger does the job of two chargers), it has a good
price/capability ratio (compared to the PFC-20 or PFC-50), it is
power factors corrected (so most of the power coming out the outlet
actually goes into the pack = faster charge), it has smart
charging algorithm circuitry to do a good charge on the pack, it
works on public AVCON charging heads (via an AVCON adapter), and
you can easily dial in what charge current you want (from 0 to 30
amps, this flexibility is useful for various amperage or shared
outlets).
Welcome to the EV List :-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rush and All,
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I just subscribed to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVProduction/. Great,
> good for Jerry for taking the step.
Your welcome, it was time.
>
> I also just got an email from Mark Dodrill, I'll
> quote only the first 2 paragraphs
> "Hello all. As I posted to the mail EV e-mail list,
> I have taken
> another step in the process to make a commercial EV
> a reality. I got
> your e-mail address from the EV list, as being
> interested in this
> topic. If you really aren't, please send e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your unsubscribe
> request.
>
> I have registered the domain name evconsortium.org,
> and setup a
> message board to help us start things out. Please
> go to
> http://evconsortium.org/Invision and register to get
> access to the
> board. I have set up a bunch of forums on various
> topics that relate
> to starting this new venture."
>
> I guess that this is also a new group, is that
Yes that correct. Too bad he hadn't answered my e
mail when I asked if he was going to do anything. Then
finally doing it after I did!
> correct? I also see that he has signed me up without
> my even being aware of the group, this is basically
> called email harvesting. This is not an email based
> group, you have to go to a web page, it is a
> commercial board and it puts a cookie on your
> computer.
Not fond of harvesting either. I think everything
should be voluntary.
I didn't know that about the way he did it. I'm a
builder with little computer experience so will need
help with that.
>
> Did others get emails from him saying that you have
> to unsubscribe if you don't want to be get the
> unsolicited emails?
Yes, that's how I got it,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi mark,
i will be there from 1 april (racing from menton to Monaco on my Red Italvel
Evolution scooter) to 4 april.
you can contact me off list.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:50 PM
Subject: Monaco EVS-21
Howdy, Is anyone else going to the www.evs21.org ? If so we can hook up.
I'm going to do my annual volunteer report and stay April 2 - 9th.
Mark E. Hanson
184 Vista Lane
Fincastle, VA 24090
540-473-1248-H
540-563-2000x290-W (8-4:30est)
www.solectrol.com dc/dc converters, wind, solar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
>Thanks for the feedback. I am in St. Charles, MO.
You're about 10 miles from me. We'll have to meet up
sometime. Another former EVer lives in St. Charles, named
John Lentz. He had an electric Saturn which he sold a long
while back. Don't know if he has an EV anymore, and never
met with the guy.
I don't know of any other converters and have heard of no
other converters in this city. There is one person
registered with a Corbin Sparrow. Don't know who.
Glad to see a new member, especially one in the St. Louis
area. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another thought, could be a first step for this venture, is to do
what some kit plane companies have done. Some started with just plans
for sale. Sometimes the parent company, sometimes another, would
start fabricating parts that were hard to make, like motor mounts or
landing gear. This would evolve into making more and more parts.
Moving this into the internet age, files for machine shops like
http://www.emachineshop.com, could be available on the main web page.
Companies that would offer to build the adapters or battery boxes
could also be listed.
So in summary the main idea is to publish plans as a first "product."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:10:37 -0800 (PST), David Dymaxion
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another thought, could be a first step for this venture, is to do
> what some kit plane companies have done. Some started with just plans
> for sale. Sometimes the parent company, sometimes another, would
> start fabricating parts that were hard to make, like motor mounts or
> landing gear. This would evolve into making more and more parts.
That's a good idea, and it wouldn't restrict the idea to the US so much.
If the Sunrise proves to be too difficult or expensive to
license/copy, I think you could go for a "ground up" car construction.
Take the 3 wheeled Vortex plans for example. There are lots of
things that can be optimised for an EV that are just not practical or
possible in an ICE car conversion.
Although, if you're aiming to eventually sell some, 3 wheels is
probably a bad idea and also limits your layout possibilities - since
you can't really have say a 2-seater, 4-seater and pickup based on the
same platform as you could do with a well designed 4 wheeled plan.
Re-use running gear from a popular small car to start with - these
components can be designed out or replaced with manufactured copies
once you get past the first 10 or so.
For the drive components I don't think there is any point in trying to
meet everyone's extreme demands such as "it must be as fast as an EV1"
- just make the standard a "minimum spec" that will give adequate
accelleration and good range. If you want to make it faster, go
ahead!
I think also for batteries you are going to have to leave it open
unless you want to take the plunge and design the car to work properly
on TS or other Li-Ions and a suitable BMS. Which would be nice..
And keep it simple :)
Regards
Evan
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they do that with cranes, ICE's get out of the ships in the smae way
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Ryan Stotts
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 4:13
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: American business model
David Roden wrote:
> The question is, would any of the Korean mfgs. be willing to sell gliders?
> And how much would import duty and transport costs add?
The thought that comes immediately to my mind is logistics in regards
to gliders.
How do they get cars here from over seas? In a special boat that is
made for hauling cars? Then they pull up to the dock and open a door
on the side of the boat and drive them off the boat? Then drive them
either onto rail cars or onto truck trailers?
Are the dock people going to push/pull these cars off the boat? Or
will they be shipped in containers?
How did that "Jet Industries" company get it's gliders from Chrysler
way back when? Did they have to be rolled off the assembly line and
rolled out into the parking lot? It would be a real bear loading them
onto the car transporters I've seen:
http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/macneil/2004/jan/black_kw_car_h
auler.jpg
Hmm....
http://www.auto-service-busse.de/images/fahrzeuge/Smart_5_x_schwarz_auf_Tran
sporter__1_.jpg
Looks like Tango's too me but I guess they are too wide..
http://www.auto-service-busse.de/musterfahrzeuge.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Opps!! I thought that was to my list. Got to
check those addresses before hitting the send button.
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rush and All,
> --- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I just subscribed to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVProduction/.
> Great,
> > good for Jerry for taking the step.
>
> Your welcome, it was time.
>
>
> >
> > I also just got an email from Mark Dodrill, I'll
> > quote only the first 2 paragraphs
> > "Hello all. As I posted to the mail EV e-mail
> list,
> > I have taken
> > another step in the process to make a commercial
> EV
> > a reality. I got
> > your e-mail address from the EV list, as being
> > interested in this
> > topic. If you really aren't, please send e-mail
> to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your unsubscribe
> > request.
> >
> > I have registered the domain name
> evconsortium.org,
> > and setup a
> > message board to help us start things out. Please
> > go to
> > http://evconsortium.org/Invision and register to
> get
> > access to the
> > board. I have set up a bunch of forums on various
> > topics that relate
> > to starting this new venture."
> >
> > I guess that this is also a new group, is that
>
> Yes that correct. Too bad he hadn't answered my
> e
> mail when I asked if he was going to do anything.
> Then
> finally doing it after I did!
>
>
> > correct? I also see that he has signed me up
> without
> > my even being aware of the group, this is
> basically
> > called email harvesting. This is not an email
> based
> > group, you have to go to a web page, it is a
> > commercial board and it puts a cookie on your
> > computer.
>
> Not fond of harvesting either. I think everything
> should be voluntary.
> I didn't know that about the way he did it. I'm a
> builder with little computer experience so will need
> help with that.
I'm not sure about harvesting though he did get my
name from the list. But he had earlier e-mailed me so
that would have been where he received it probably.
But as I've said, I know little about computers
other than to e-mail out messages out that were sent
to me. I couldn't do the new list without help from a
friend.
I wish Mark had let us know he was going to do
something but after waiting for an answer from my e
mail on this list with nothing happening for a while,
I went ahead.
I've got a lot of work in mine now though and will
continue and membership is rising as we speak with
some very good talent already onboard. It is already
1/2 way to the number we need to make it work and it's
only 7 hrs old so things look good.
I wish Mark luck with his list too as the more
there is the more likely we get more EV's on the road.
There is enough room for everyone.
And if I can help with anything, Mark, his list
needs, let me know as I have experience in setting up
low volume, low cost, composite production lines and
driving costs out of production. Lets all work to
getting EV's into production!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> >
> > Did others get emails from him saying that you
> have
> > to unsubscribe if you don't want to be get the
> > unsolicited emails?
>
> Yes, that's how I got it,
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> > Rush
> > Tucson AZ
> > converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
> >
>
__________________________________
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http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, the matiz is a different story, I've not driven it, maybe I should go
and try it, but it loks too weak to hold the weight of batts, maybe I'm
wrong though.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Evan Tuer
Enviado el: miércoles, 23 de marzo de 2005 5:56
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: American business model
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:27:30 -0400, Ivo Jara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wouldn't like to crash in my girlfriend's Daewoo racer.
>
> It's true they are cheap, but I would rather have a Soviet Lada than any
> korean car, if they are sold in the states, people are going to start
> diying.
Well, I had a look at a Daewoo Matiz (http://www.mymatiz.com/) and it
didn't strike me as being of low build quality, it's actually quite a
nice little car. I agree that the older models have a poor image and
a very low second hand value though.
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--- Begin Message ---
How about licensing solectrias chassis, the body could be another, and the
electrics different.
hahaha back to stage one, lets design it from scratch hahaha.
Just kidding, maybe an agreement with solectria could be made.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Doug Weathers
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 4:42
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Doug Weathers wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:40 AM, jerry dycus wrote:
>>> If Selectria doesn't want to play, it would be
>>> easy to take a mold off of it and do the rest from
>>> scratch with many more power, batt options if we can
>>> talk the owner into it. The Sunrise's aero is very
>>> good.
>>> Or take a mold from any car for that matter. It's
>>> easy, much easier, lower cost than building from
>>> scratch and gives you sources of windshields, ect.
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> What if we form a corporation. Each investor buys X shares of stock
>>> to
>>> raise $50,000. Let's say there are 50 investors of $1000 each.
>>>
>>> The corporation buys the Solectria Sunrise currently being offered
>>> for
>>> sale. The car is then carefully reverse-engineered, thoroughly
>>> documented, and the plans provided to the investors.
>>
>> IANAL, but both of these proposals sound like theft of intellectual
>> property.
>
> But engineers and scientists would call it business as usual. :-)
Probably not if those engineers and scientists work for a (for-profit)
business. Or more specifically, if the products they are copying
belong to a competing business.
We can't go around making exact copies of someone else's product and
trying to sell the copies. It doesn't matter that GM doesn't intend to
ever produce another EV1 itself. The point is that the design of the
EV1 belongs to GM, and if we copy it by taking a mold of the body or
duplicating its circuits or copying the code out of the ROMs on the
computers, then we are stealing GM's intellectual property.
And they can shut us down with a lawsuit we have no desire or resources
to fight.
> The whole point is that you learn from others. The Sunrise (and EV1 and
> the other recent high-tech EVs) represent tremendous advancements in
> the
> state of the art of EVs.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but the whole point of copyright law is to
allow a company to make a profit from their labors, and not to spread
the knowledge around until the copyright expires. Without that as a
profit motive, there would be less incentive for companies to invent
new things. Why should a Solectria or a GM spend millions to billions
of bucks on something that a competitor could just immediately copy and
resell without paying for the R&D?
Granted, this isn't the only motivation that makes people create cool
new things - witness open source software, non-profit organizations,
artists, and this proposal to get EVs into our own and everyone else's
hands. There's a lot of tension between people who want to tighten
copyright laws and people who want them loosened up. At the moment the
copyright people are way ahead. Witness the RIAA suing kids and
grandmothers and people who are already dead (!) for violating music
copyrights.
Learning from others is good, but stealing from others is bad.
> It would be a foolish waste to just crush them
> or bury them in some warehouse or museum, and never use that knowledge.
I agree, but this doesn't change the fact that someone owns the designs
of the Sunrise, the EV1, and to every other car on the road. If the
folks who own the design want to bury it, they're allowed to do that
and we're not allowed to prevent it. For example, you might think it's
a foolish waste for me to throw away my TV after it stops working, even
though you know exactly how to fix it. That doesn't give you the right
to steal the TV out of my house, or even out of my garbage can. All
you can do is ask me to give it to you, and I'm within my rights to
charge you money for it or tell you to take a hike. I can even throw
away my brand-new, perfectly working TV, and replace it with a much
bigger, uglier one that uses way too much energy. (Hmmm....)
> If Solectria (or GM or Ford or...) had any plans to actually produce
> these vehicles, then it would be different. But they do not! Frankly,
> if
> any of them did, I would be more than happy to abandon my efforts to
> build my own, and would simply buy it from them!
That's a moral argument, not a legal one. Just because I'm not
watching my TV doesn't mean that I no longer deserve to have it and
you're therefore allowed to take it away from me. You need some sort
of legal excuse to get that TV, like I've stopped making payments on it
or I stole it from you to begin with. Or you need to convince a jury
that the immorality of my TV-ignoring behavior is so heinous that it
justifies you breaking the law.
Whether or not the car manufacturers plan to produce the vehicles we're
thinking about copying is not the point. In fact, the evidence
suggests that GM doesn't want any EV1s on the road even if it costs
them all the money they've sunk into the project to date, and even if
they can make a profit on selling them. They are likely to spend even
MORE money to make sure the EV1 stays dead. That probably means suing
the pants off of anyone who tries to resurrect it without their
permission.
The point is, THEY own the designs, WE do not. We will be STEALING if
we copy their designs without permission, or without making enough
changes so that a jury can be convinced that our vehicle is an original
work. Taking a mold of a car and selling exact duplicates is not going
to get past a jury. If there's a reasonable chance that someone could
mistake our copy for the original, we're infringing.
I strongly recommend adding a lawyer to the team ASAP, before anyone
does any work that will have to be thrown away as infringing.
Lee, I'm sure you know all of this, having worked for large companies
developing products. What am I missing here?
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Friday noon-- NPR's Talk of the Nation is having
someone from Ford Motor Company on, at least on Bay
Area stations.
Sherry
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Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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Lee Hart wrote:
Philippe Borges wrote:
the piston is at the position he was put by the mounter man:^)
the system which return back "a little" the piston is the washer
form, there is some sort of lip on it that deform hitself when
going one way and so force to go backward (few micrometre)
sufficiently to let the rotor rotate again withoug drag when
you release brake pressure.
I understand. In my Renault LeCar, the disk brake pistons have a rubber
seal, shaped like an "O" ring with a square cross-section. When you step
on the brakes and the piston slides out, the outside part of this seal
sits still and the inner part moves with the piston. So, it gets
stretched a bit. When you release the brake, the rubber seal pulls the
piston back a little bit.
However, the amount that it pulls back is tiny; invisible to the naked
eye. There is enough runout in the wheel bearings and out-of-round in
the brake rotor that it *still* hits the pad as it turns. Plus, the pad
is not attached to the piston; it is free to "lean" on the rotor as it
turns. Thus, there is a constant light drag as you rotate the wheel,
even with the brakes off.
With drum brakes, there is an actual spring to pull the shoes away from
the drum. They also pull the shoes away a considerable distance, so that
bearing runout and out-of-round conditions on the drum still don't touch
the brake shoes. It is much easier to adjust them so they don't drag.
Is it possible to adjust the front and rear brakes so they don't drag
without replacing the entire wheel cylinder (they are special order). It
appears as though the brake cylinders, at least in the rear drum brakes,
are not returning fluid to the reservior in my LeCar. Is the rubber seal
mentioned above replaceable, and will this fix the problem? Also, how
are the brakes in the LeCar adjusted?
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