EV Digest 4240
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Replacing Tour De Sol with...............??
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Chain & Sprockets question.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Another 'Amazing Hawkers' story...or, How to Jump-start a Semi!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Who says EVs are better? They have advantages and
shortcomings compared to vehicles with infernal
combustion engines. For some people and some
situations the advantages of an EV outweigh the
shortcomings or they just think they would like to
have one.
I don't think people can be "convinced" that they ought
to have an EV. It's something that they have to
figure out for themselves. We can help by informing
them about the pros and cons of EVs and showing them
that EVs can be interesting and exciting.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
You can tell your parents, that the amount of gas I used is about 2 gallons
from July 2004 to the present, in my 1975 Chevelle. This happen because I
drive a 1977 Electric El Camino.
I also had a ICE sports car, a American fiberglass type, which had only had 5
gallons a gas put in it in 1966. This car had only 57 miles, on it. It cost
about $3500.00 back then and I just sold it last month for $35,000.00!!!
This is what a EV can do. Many persons can't stand to drive there old car for
any length of time, and must have a new to replace it.
With a EV, you don't replace it, you upgrade it. As time goes by, it is
becomes better than the day you received it. It is not the same old thing all
the time.
As for battery replacements, it is possible to get over 10 years on a battery
pack, if you do not undercharge it, overcharge it, keep it balance, have enough
batteries, where the amperes is low and charge it when you only used 20 to 30
percent of the capacity of the battery.
My last pack, which cost me $33.00 each for 30 batteries that last me just over
10 years. The ones I using now are Trojan T-145's which means I could go 145
minutes at a 75 amp draw. My city driving is about 50 amps which is only 8
minutes a day, which means I charge the EV only about once a week at 50 amps
for about 60 minutes.
You are saying 8 minutes a day!! On many short trips, with any car, I hard
press to get over 8 minutes, many days are only 4 minutes. You see, I have a
motor elapse time clock on the dash, and this is motor time. Unlike a engine
car, which the motor is on all the time, the electric motor is off when you let
up on the accelerator, of which you may coast down for one to two blocks at no
power.
Some times, I may be gone a day for about 8 hours, but my motor on time, is
only 20 minutes.
I just got done doing a full inspection of the EV. Remove all the covers,
tighten up all the connections, check the circuit voltage. What the fantastic
thing about the condition of the motor is that the internals of the motor, the
commentator and brushes are still super clean and bright since I look at it 4
years ago. There is no arcing of the brushes at all.
A ICE can not compare to this. There is no amount of money that anybody can
offer me for this EV. The motor alone is worth more than some cars.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Stotts<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:54 PM
Subject: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
The other night, my parents fueled up their '98 Jeep Cherokee with an
inline 6. Costs right about $40 to fill it up. It's very likely it
gets filled up once a week. Some weeks, it's also very likely that it
gets fueled up twice.
For our estimate here, lets go with the once a week number. $2,080 a
year in fuel costs. If the vehicle was converted over to say a 144v
DC setup using either Optima's or AGM Exides, about how many years
could they be expected to last? 3 or 4?
3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v pack.
Looks like an obvious solution right? Well here is the rub: The
upfront conversion costs. Any time I start to talk highly about
electric and how much better it is, I always get asked "how much will
it cost me to convert?". You all know how much it can be..
If they are sensible and once they get over the "sticker shock", they
start doing the math to see how many years it will take for the
conversion to pay for itself in fuel savings.
Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently
don't much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there
just no way to win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the isolation solution was the MagneCharger. It's HF AC, so the
actual transformer is small (it's a paddle) and it is pretty much the
pan-ultimate of "isolated".
And the car part weighs under 5 pounds or so including the computer.
Now that I think about it, any direct connect system to wall could have
an isolation/ground problem. All you need is for your ground wire to
fall off.
Chris
We EVers have a different problem. Our chargers are mobile, and require
high power levels. That means the isolation transformer gets big and
heavy at 60hz, or requires a more complex design. We have batteries
that often do not have insulated connections. We also tend to show off
our vehicles to untrained individuals (or just do dumb things
ourselves), and energized conductors are more accessible than they
should be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At what point should we look into making these things ourselves?
So, let's scale up the 0.6Ah cell 100 times to 60Ah, 100 in series
for 370V and 22.2kWh, or 133 miles or range. At 20K cycles they
will reach 80% (106 mile range) at 2.66 million miles. Outstanding.
If high production 18650's are at $500/kWh I see no reason why
these can't make that mark, or beat it at BEV levels. With 1000
vehicles (EV1-ish) you can produce 100,000 unit, costing $11 Mil.
$11K per vehicle, lifetime cost $0.004/mile + $0.01/mile fuel.
I'de bet that CommuterCars and ACPropulsion could sell a few,
and with the new EVProduction group, Prius+, and converters all
onboard the 1000 vehicles mark would be easy to hit, no?
So, I'll ask again, at what point do we build our own factory!
How about $250/kWh, $5.5K per car. $125/kWh, $2.7K per car....
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Bottom line is, for about the same money I can drive a full size gas
> car or small SUV or I can cram myself into a micro car and be tethered
> close to home in the electric. I can't imagine anyone outside the
> zealot community going for the electric option.
>
> Now if you promote the electric car as the second, around-town car,
> then you might get come converts as long as the car itself doesn't
> cost too much.
>
> >Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
> >solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently
> >don't much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there
> >just no way to win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
> >
>
> Except for those who have long commutes, the increase in gas prices is
> little more than an annoyance. If someone lived on the extreme
> opposite side of my town from his workplace then he might have a 7 or
> 8 mile commute. More typical commutes would be less than 5 miles.
> The marginal cost of gas is so low as to not matter to most people.
> Certainly not enough to trade their comfortable gas vehicles for tiny
> little electrics.
>
> John
>
Yeah, I have to agree; economics is why I'm not commuting electrically - I live
24mi from work, which requires 18mi of Interstate that goes over the Coastal
range (up AND down both ways). I currently use an old Saturn (purchased for
$1.5K with over 200K mi and a messed-up windshield, but still passes the strict
Smog II test in this part of NorCal) as my beater-commuter car. That's 7
cents/mi for gas (and, so far, little else), or pay PG&E >12cents/kwh for
electricity who's generation I don't control (no Green Mountain "all wind
power" option for me). If I had the money for my own solar or wind power, I'd
probably be running an EV, too.
While I will admit building something yourself is very gratifying, for
non-mechanics like me, it gets pretty daunting: my eLamby project creates new
concerns that make me sit around scratching my head instead of getting it
running. In fact, if I was a better "wrench", I'd have a Kewet going for my
wife to use around town, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> On 29 Mar 2005 at 13:48, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
> > vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
> > that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
>
> You have to dig a bit in the news release, but it appears that the Tour de
Sol
> will still allow e-bikes to participate:
>
> > attendees will have an opportunity to see three
> > new hybrid SUV's, Honda and Toyota's hybrid sedans, electric bikes
> > and scooters, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
>
> Although EVs seem to have only a bit part in this play, I trust that
Michael
> Bianci will make sure that all of his TdS reports provide at least a
modicum of
> worthwhile EV content. That'll make them at least acceptable under the
list
> charter.
>
> IMO, this is a shame. There was a time when these reports were a good bit
> more than "acceptable." But while biodiesel, fossil-fuel quasi-hybrids,
and
> fuel cells are certainly of interest to some here, each report that
focuses on
> these subjects is diminished in value relative to the EV list's mission.
>
> The Tour de Sol used to be one of the premiere EVents. If I'm not
mistaken,
> at one time they really lived up to their name, and required that all
> participants use solar power in some form. Now old Sol is just about
> forgotten, and they seem to be relegating even battery EVs to
second-class -
> or lower - status. Maybe they should rename it the Tour de MPG.
>
> Hi EVerybody;
Yeah, I felt that way when I got involved, a few years ago. BEV's were
being eased out. Phooey! When it started up battery stuff was IT! OK we
need, maybe through our EAA Orgs a NEW Tour de Volts, or Watts or Amps. Chip
Gribben may have some good names an' logos? Have it around the country. Say
Portland one year, Chicago, the next DC for sure. Have a big "EV in" where
folks could get rides, EVen drive a bit. Watch dragsters run, chain
something to a Jersey Barrier for a smoke show<g>!?Ya get my drift? EVen do
a conversion as folks watched. Lottsa parts to have and hold, plans,stuff
for Joe Goodwrench to check out. And Mike Bianchi to do the reports!
My two Watts worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the heavy stock flywheel
> ? Wayland mentioned replaceing the motor shafts in his ADC 8:" I am
> trying to find out if that can be done on the warp 9, if that isn't too
> bad, or I can have shafts made and send them to netgain to have
> incorporated into the motors, we can put a crank pattern on the shaft
> and eliminate the taperlock entirely. Then I will concentrate instead on
> a new motor end that is large enough to bolt to the tranny or bolt to
> the tranny plate.
Hmm, I wonder if we could convince Netgain or ADC to make a stock motor
with a generic "crank pattern" end. Then we could have a generic
clutch/pressure-plate mating surface (minimal flywheel).
The minimal flywheel obviously wouldn't need starter gear teeth, and
wouldn't need to be any heavier or thicker than necessary for proving a
good mating surface for the clutch/pressure plate. I understand that
forged flywheels are prefereable for racing, but for low performance EVs
conversions, cast would probably be sufficient.
Perhaps the minimal flywheel could be designed to mate to a commonly
available (and relatively low cost) adapter plate. The converter could
then choose a clutch disc that matched their tranny input spline.
With a custom motor shaft, that this new minimal flwheel bolts directly
to, we could avoid the cost and additional depth of the taperlock hub.
This savings would be offset by the cost of the minimal flywheel.
Big advantage would be that the adapter plate wouldn't have to be as deep,
and there would be zero chance of the shaft twisting inside the
non-existent hub.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, whada y'all think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tour De Sol did not sell out. It's the lack of BEVs that show up to the
race that has cause the transition. I started going in 1993 so I know how
EV intensive it used to be, high school, college, independents, everyone.
But the momentum waned by the end of the decade so we should be glad the TdS
is even still around. Remember APS races in Phoenix?
Sure, true EVers don't like hanging around the bio-diesels and HEVs, but the
spirit is still the same, how to make our limited resources go further.
BEVs never showed up because of prize money anyway. They did it for the
fun, the experience, the learning about their cars and themselves.
HEVs are finally getting a toe hold and it's events like these that the
public come out to see. The public only saw pure EV rally races as a
curiosity. Now they are starting to see vehicles that they can purchase
(soon).
This bridges the public (read volumes) to the technology that will be
necessary to help our country be more self sustaining.
BEVs will make a comeback, but don't kick sand in TdS's face. They are the
ones that have stood steadfast for 17 years while the EV community ebbs and
flows. Most EVers that did make it in the past did it on their own dime.
Companies rarely returned too many times because it was hard for them to see
a direct link to a return on the investment.
If you want the TdS to be the primary EV event again, then enter your BEV!
That is the only way EV attendance will grow and dominate the other
categories.
Marc Kohler
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On 29 Mar 2005 at 13:48, Lee Hart wrote:
So, EVs are no longer even being considered as "fuel efficient
vehicles"? Not eligible for any prizes, no categories for them? Does
that make the TdS off-topic for the EV list?
You have to dig a bit in the news release, but it appears that the Tour de
Sol
will still allow e-bikes to participate:
attendees will have an opportunity to see three
new hybrid SUV's, Honda and Toyota's hybrid sedans, electric bikes
and scooters, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
Although EVs seem to have only a bit part in this play, I trust that
Michael
Bianci will make sure that all of his TdS reports provide at least a
modicum of
worthwhile EV content. That'll make them at least acceptable under the
list
charter.
IMO, this is a shame. There was a time when these reports were a good bit
more than "acceptable." But while biodiesel, fossil-fuel quasi-hybrids,
and
fuel cells are certainly of interest to some here, each report that
focuses on
these subjects is diminished in value relative to the EV list's mission.
The Tour de Sol used to be one of the premiere EVents. If I'm not
mistaken,
at one time they really lived up to their name, and required that all
participants use solar power in some form. Now old Sol is just about
forgotten, and they seem to be relegating even battery EVs to
second-class -
or lower - status. Maybe they should rename it the Tour de MPG.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:55 PM
Subject: Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the heavy stock flywheel
? Wayland mentioned replaceing the motor shafts in his ADC 8:" I am
trying to find out if that can be done on the warp 9, if that isn't too
bad, or I can have shafts made and send them to netgain to have
incorporated into the motors, we can put a crank pattern on the shaft
and eliminate the taperlock entirely.
The shaft has to be small enough so as to slip the motor bearing over it ,
cars engines get away with this by having 2 halfs which are not ball
bearings.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>>ps. Here are some electric clutches rated for 75 ft-lb,
>>>would an e-tek break one of these? I realize they use belts...
>>>http://surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?numrec=25&sort=1&search=Clutch
>>
>> Well, as I read the Etek torque-curves, it has a max output torque of
>> about 31 ft-lbs, so it /should/ be ok.
>
> So, how does the gear reductions work into this, say I have a
> 4:1 reduction is that 31 ft-lbs multiplied by 4 for 124 ft-lbs?
It depends on where you put the e-clutch.
If you put it on the motor shaft, then it equals the motor torque.
If you put it on the driven shaft, then it equals the motor torque times
the reduction ration (i.e. 124 ft-lbs above)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I had a fun thing happen today that I want to share with everyone. A few months
back, I
had written in part:
> ....the fun scenario that happened at work this past week. Because most of
> the >Hawkers I have used and abused, now for 8+ years, are still hanging
> around, still not >corroding anything, still able to sit l-o-n-g periods of
> time and be ready to deliver BIG >currents, I keep four of them on board my
> forklift service truck. On several occasions, I >used two of them wired at
> 24V, as an emergency jump starter for cranking over the >V8 diesel engine of
> this truck when its pair of large 12V AGMs got sucked down too >far for one
> reason or another and were nearly stone dead. I purposely use an >alligator
> lead jumper pair of smallish gauge wire for such an unorthodox jump-start
> >affair, to act as series limiters. Connecting them up to the pooped-out
> starting >batteries, would sag the 24V worth of Hawkers down to ~ 18V while
> delivering 200+ >amps (LEM clamp-on meter there to monitor things) into the
> tired 12V starting >batteries at around 13.5V ....yes, the small gauge
> jumper set
gets real hot! The jump >charge though, only takes 30 seconds, and right
about when they small cables are >about to catch fire, I pull the Anderson
quick disconnect. The twin starting batteries >get boosted in a hurry and the
big 'ol cranky diesel spins over swiftly and fires to >life!....I used this
fast Hawker powered charger on several occasions....amazing, that >8 years old,
tiny and abused Hawkers can still deliver this kind of performance!
Today, with my forklift service truck backed against the dock at an industrial
dairy, I
was approached by a trucker who's big rig had a dead starting pack. This
particular dock I
work at often, is perhaps 50 feet away from where the tractor-trailer rigs pull
in to
offload their tanker trailers full of fresh milk from surrounding dairies.
These aren't
light duty...quite the opposite, they're the BIG machines, Kenworths,
Peterbuilts, and
Freightliners, that pull dual tankers filled with heavy liquid behind the
tractor. Anyway,
as I had just staged my service truck and was getting out of the cab, the
driver of a
massive Freightliner came up to me to ask if I had jumper cables, as his rig
wouldn't
start. I told him, "Boy, did you run into the right guy!" I went on to explain
how my
service truck had every conceivable cable and or battery combination he could
want. He
seemed relieved I was willing to lend a hand.
He followed me around to the back and came inside my truck's workshop on
wheels. He was a
bit taken back at the stainless steel workbench, the roll-out extending drill
press and
flip-out bench grinder, the microwave, the stereo system sporting a 10 inch JL
Audio sub,
and the inverter system with its bank of 6 Trojan T-145s. He took one look at
all the
batteries on board, and said "Yeah, I can see you don't have any shortage of
power on
board this truck!" About that time, the pair of trucker from the adjacent big
rig came in
to have a look-around in my work truck. Of course, they had to have a demo of
the sound
system, so I cranked it up with U2's latest CD...they got quite a kick out of
the tunes.
What really got them going though, was when I told them how I was going to jump
start the
Freightliner....that's when I pulled the twin Hawker 24V jump start set off the
shelf. One
of the truckers said, "Those tiny things aint gonna do nuthin." I just laughed
and said,
"We'll see about that." I then tried to quickly get them up to speed, telling
them how I
was an electric car drag racer, and how using 28 of the tiny batteries, I used
to pull 800
amps form them and run low 13's. I then added that the car now runs high
12's....this
raised their collective eyebrows! I next told them the little batteries were 8
years old,
but that they would start the dead Freightliner in 30 seconds or so....more
jabs and
doubts from the truckers.
I grabbed the 8 gauge 12 foot alligator jumper leads, my LEM clamp-on ammeter,
and handed
the twin Hawker pack to the trucker looking to get the jump start. The four of
use went
over to his rig. The starting pack consisted of four, 75 lb. group 31 AGM
starting
batteries, all in parallel, with 4 gauge cables! The engine was gigantic, a Cat
310, 385
hp diesel. As I told them what was about to happen before their eyes, all of
them thought
I was nuts. I confidently proclaimed that the little batteries would
effortlessly boost
his pack up in just 30 seconds....they didn't believe a word of any of it... a
classic
moment. Who could blame them? This massive tractor had 300 lbs. of batteries
just to start
the damn thing! Now, here was this kook of a guy with these tiny batteries and
little
cables about as big around as a thin pencil with medium sized alligator clips
on the ends,
telling them it was going to fire up a monster Cat diesel.....yeah, right! The
other
driver of the Peterbuilt tractor was laughing at me, but I simply said, "I bet
you it
starts in 30 seconds." At this point, he pulls his wallet from his back pocket,
opens it
up, and displays hundred dollar bills, saying, "OK, how much you wanna put up?"
Confident
to the point of being annoying to them, I smiled and said, "You know, I just
can't in good
conscience, take your money, so put it away." He just laughed, thinking he had
backed me
down from my proclamation of what was about to happen.
To add to the dramatics of it all, I asked the trucker to get in his rig and
try to turn
it over, saying, "I want to see just how dead it is." The other driver, the
Peterbuilt
guy, took this as a sign I was loosing my confidence and snickered some
more...I ignored
him. With the twist of the key, the Cat's giant starter motor went,
"CLICK-Uhhhh---RRRRRR"....then,
silence as the starter stalled. I said, "Yup, those are some dead batteries!"
And with
that, I instructed the driver to stay in the cab, and wait till I gave him the
go ahead to
try to start again. I then snapped the Anderson connectors together between the
Hawker
pack and the 12 foot jumper cable set, secured the one lead, and clamped the
ammeter
around the second lead as I clipped it onto the other battery post. With an
ample spark
and a nice "SNAP", the Hawkers did their thing and sent 130-140-150, then
settled back to
around 130 amps into the four big 12V batteries, as I began timing the boost
for 30
seconds. I pointed out to my audience, that the tiny batteries were charging
the truck's
batteries at more than 100 continuous amps....more raised eyebrows. The 8 gauge
cables
started to get pretty hot in a hurry, but that's what keeps things safe and the
current at
reasonable levels. At the 30 second mark, I said, "Hit it." The big starter
spun over
like crazy as the Cat diesel barked to life and fired up in seconds with ease!
I then,
unclipped the Hawkers and looked up to see the Peterbuilt guy's jaw hanging
open in total
disbelief! I guess it's hard for non EVer types to understand how a battery
pack so small
you can hold it in one hand, can do the work of 300 lbs. of batteries. I of
course,
restated that the batteries had been brutalized for years at the drag track,
and that they
were eight years old.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that a
chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hydrometer readings have no merit unless the acid is homogenous. Gas
vigorously for one hour, make several squirts with the hydrom to get a
mixture first. Newly formed acid settles to the bottom. Stratification
is the problem that has affected many batteries until the user deals
with it.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
Nick Viera [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is it normal for there to be this kind of variation between cell
> gravities in the same battery, or should they be very close
> to the same value?
They should typically be pretty close to the same value within a given
battery.
If you aren't temperature compensating your readings and there are
differences in temperature between the cells, then this can exaggerate
the SG differences.
None of these SGs are anywhere near that of a fully charged battery. I
understand that you did drive about 3mi between charging and reading the
SG, but it would have to have been a *brutal* 3mi drive to drop the SG
to this level if they really started out fully charged.
Double-check your charging parameters; I suspect you are not getting the
batteries fully charged.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 50/60 Hz transformer Rich offers is both 120 and 240 capable without any
switches. Just plug it in exactly like the charger. It is a 10 inch toroid,
4 inches tall and weighs 65 pounds. It is about half the weight and volume
of a square transformer of the same rating.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
> To be fair, it is not just about being cheap. Rich's solution of
> offering large, heavy (and expensive) line frequency isolation
> transormers is a major kudge (in my opinion). His chargers are already
> high frequency switchmode devices, and adding the isolation internally
> in the form of a high frequency transformer is really the proper way to
> do it. Nobody in their right mind is going to shell out for a Manzanita
> Micro PFC charger to allow them to have universal input, high power
> charging on-board the EV and then install a bulky, heavy isolation
> transformer in the vehicle that most likely ties them back to a single
> line voltage input.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:13:25 -0600, Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > when fully charged, the SG should be a good bit higher too I think.
> > Once you've charged them (as you normally do), let them sit overnight
> > and do the test the next day.
>
> Is the idea to let them sit because the Specific Gravity of the cells
> will decrease a little as the batteries come down to resting voltage? Or
> does the SG rise as they settle?
>
The SG will fall a bit after charging. If you're measuring at that
point, this might give more variation in your results so I think it's
best to let them settle for a while. Also, you'll get a better idea
of the actual state of charge. Finally, if you've got damaged cells
with a high self-discharge rate, this probably won't show up straight
after charging.
The figures that you gave before showed that you had some batteries at
60%, some at 80% (a rough estimate). Equalisation and a full charge
needed!
Good luck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
>Money-wise, I think it would end up being about even.
John is pretty much correct, however I'd like to go a little
more in depth.
With a smaller or more efficient car, be it either a "micro
car", compact four seater, aerodynamic midsize car, or a
sports car, cost will be about at or even less than a
typical gas car, while an SUV or pickup will be more.
Driving style, however, will really effect this cost in any
of the cases.
Lets do some calculations.
We will model 6 types of vehicles using varying sizes of a
battery pack.
a) Compact four seater(Honda Civic)
b) Aero Midsize(Toyota Prius)
c) Sports(VW Kharmen Ghia)
d) SUV(Chevy Blazer)
e) Pickup(Ford Ranger)
f) Micro(Commuter Cars Tango)
The battery pack will be a pack of Exide Orbitals with its
size and weight specified. $100 a battery. According to the
Commutercars website, the following is listed about the
cycle life of an Exide Orbital:
Depth of Discharge..Cycle Life
10%..4,600
20%..4,250
30%..4,000
40%..3,400
50%..2,100
60%..1,200
70%..600
80%..400
90%..250
100%..200
We will refuse to allow the batteries to last more than
40,000 miles due to limited shelf life and what not.
According to Rudman's data, each Orbital is good for 300 wh
@ 60 amps to 100% DoD. So at 40 amps we'll estimate 400 wh
deliverable, 25 amps 475 wh deliverable(95 minute reserve
capacity), and establish a crude linear relationship between
amps drawn vs. deliverable wh. We're also going to assume
the EV's average use per day(and range used before charging
again) is 30 miles, or close to 12,000 miles a year. Assume
charger efficiency of 80% and battery efficiency of 80%.
With a $.08/kWh electricity cost and 80% charger and 80%
battery efficiency, per kWh into battery cost is $.125.
Each Orbital is 50AH at 25 hour rate, so that is
approximately 600 wh put in each 12V battery for a full
charge.
Efficiency for an EV is measured battery pack to wheels,
with Peukert's neglected. So, to get energy consumption, the
50 ah * Voltage of the battery pack * strings is multiplied
by its discharge depth, and the achieved figure divided by
the 30 mile trip to get wh/mile with peukert's counted and
then multiplied by the $.125 per kWh into battery pack with
80% charger and 80% battery efficiency(With original price
of $.08/kWh).
Battery pack selection will be made to be about 30%-40% of
vehicle weight, for an optimization between range and
performance.
A per mile maintenance cost of a gasoline automobile is
about $.05/mile.
http://www.runzheimer.com/corpc/news/scripts/032603.asp
a) Compact four seater(1992 Honda Civic Sedan)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: 32 MPG..200wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.08/kWh
EV has double string 156V pack of Orbitals weighing in at
1,066 pounds.
Gas: $.0672/mile for gas + maintenance
Electric: 200 wh/mile at 156V double string is a 38 amp
average draw. This will be 410 wh delivered per battery, and
a max range of 48 miles. 30 miles is a 62.5% discharge. So
this works out to be a battery cost of $.0722/mile, and
energy cost of $.0406/mile.
Gas Car Cost per mile: $.1172
Electric Cost per Mile: $.1128
Difference: EV cheaper by 3.8%
Over 150,000 miles, the EV will save you $660.
b) Aerodynamic Midsize(2005 Toyota Prius)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: 55 MPG..150wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.08/kWh
EV has single string 300V pack of Orbitals weighing in at
1,025 pounds.
Gas: $.0391/mile for gas + maintenance
Electric: 150 wh/mile at 300V single string is a 30 amp
average draw. This will be 450wh delivered per battery, and
a max range of 75 miles. 30 miles is a 40% discharge. So
this works out to be a battery cost of $.0625/mile, and
energy cost of $.025/mile.
Gas Car Cost per mile: $.0891
Electric Cost per Mile: $.0875
Difference: EV cheaper by 1.8%
Over 150,000 miles the EV save you $240.
c) Sports(1969 VW Kharmen Ghia)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: 30 MPG..175wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.08/kWh
EV has single string 288V pack of Orbitals weighing in at
984 pounds.
Gas: $.0717/mile gas + maintenance
Electric: 175 wh/mile at 288V is a 36 amp average draw. This
will be 420wh delivered per battery, and a max range of 58
miles. 30 miles is a 52% discharge. So this works out to be
a battery cost of $.06/mile, and energy cost of $.031/mile.
Gas Cost per mile: $.1217
Electric Cost per Mile: $.091
Difference: EV cheaper by 25%
Over 150,000 miles the EV will save you $4,605.
d) SUV(1994 Chevy Blazer)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: 16 MPG..400wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.008/kWh
EV has double string 288V pack of Orbitals weighing in at
1968 pounds.
Gas: $.134/mile + maintenance
Electric: 400 wh/mile at 288V double string is a 42 amp
average draw. This will be 390 wh delivered per battery, and
a max range of 47 miles. 30 miles is a 63.8% discharge. So
this works out to be a battery cost of $.133/mile, and
energy cost of $.0769/mile.
Gas Cost per mile: $.184
Electric Cost per Mile: $.201
Difference: Gas cheaper by 8.5%
Over 150,000 miles, the EV will cost $2,550 more to operate.
e) Pickup(1990 Ford Ranger)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: 24 MPG..300wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.008/kWh
EV has double string 228V pack of Orbitals weighing in at
1,558 pounds.
Gas: $.0895/mile + maintenance
Electric: 300 wh/mile at 228V double string is a 39 amp
average draw. This will be 410wh delivered per battery, and
a max range of 52 miles. 30 miles is a 58% discharge. So
this works out to be a battery cost of $.095/mile, and
energy cost of $.0549/mile.
Gas Cost per mile: $.140
Electric Cost per Mile: $.150
Difference: Gas cheaper by 6.7%
Over 150,000 miles, the EV will cost you $1,500 more.
f) Micro(Commuter Cars Tango)
Type: Gas..Electric
Efficiency: n/a MPG..150wh/mile
Energy Cost: n/a..$.008/kWh
Gas: Average 2005 gas auto gets about 22 miles per gallon.
$.0977/mile + maintenance
Electric: 150 wh/mile at 300V is a 30 amp average draw. This
will be 450wh delivered per battery, and a max range of 75
miles. 30 miles is a 40% discharge. So this works out to be
a battery cost of $.0625/mile, and energy cost of
$.025/mile.
Gas Cost per mile for average gas auto: $.1477
Electric Cost per Mile: $.0875
Difference: Tango EV cheaper than average gas car by 41%.
Over 150,000 miles, the Tango EV will save you $9,030.
As you can see, efficiency plays a BIG role. Lose efficiency
and have higher amp draws, you get less capacity and less
bang for your buck. Drive like Otmar, efficiency drops, cost
goes WAY up. Same with a gas car as you put more wear on
your engine.
With AGM batteries, EVs don't offer significant savings over
their gas counterparts unless they are extremely efficient.
If they aren't even efficient, they actually become more
expensive to operate. The most dramatic results will be
found converting low weight and low drag sports cars that
originally had wasteful engines.
However, what is not considered is that the gas car's engine
will go out after 150,000 miles or so. The EV will keep on
going strong as long as you keep replacing battery packs.
Figure a few grand to replace an engine IF you know how to
do that. You'll never need to buy a new car again with an
EV, offering significant savings.
As gas prices rise, EV savings increase significantly.
Should gas prices meet their 70s oil embargo levels of near
$3.00, an EV will be much cheaper to operate.
Also, the battery cost per mile goes down even further with
use of floodeds or advanced chemistries like Nickel Cadmium,
to where you cut the battery per mile costs by about 60%
over AGMs, giving you a car that offers significant savings.
When Li Ion becomes more mainstream, an affordable pack that
could last 200,000+ miles will cause the EV to then pay
itself off after a decade. NiCds and floodeds already have
this advantage in cost and will pay the car off. The
disadvantage are maintenance and performance with flooded
PbA, and maintenance with NiCd if you don't have a watering
system.
An aerodynamically optimized EV will save you big bucks,
even with expensive AGMs.
I'm going to model my Triumph GT6+ using a 300V pack of
Optimas and compare it with a typical new automobile getting
22 MPGs and $.05 per mile operating cost. Each Optima D750
is $115 and weighs 45 pounds, and will have about a 30,000
mile pack life according to AC Propulsion. Thus a 1,125
pound battery pack.
Type: Gas Car..Electric GT6+
Efficiency: 22 MPG..150wh/mile
Energy Cost: $2.15/gallon..$.008/kWh
Gas: Average 2005 gas auto gets about 22 miles per gallon.
$.0977/mile + maintenance
Electric: 150 wh/mile at 300V is a 30 amp average draw. This
will be about 600wh delivered per battery(estimated from
Roger Stockton's data and reserve capacity rates, reserve
capacity offering 624 wh each battery and Roger's data
showing abused and neglected Optimas achieving 450+ wh), and
a max range of 100 miles. 30 miles is a 30% discharge. So
this works out to be a battery cost of $.0958/mile, and
energy cost of $.0243/mile.
Gas Cost per mile for average gas auto: $.1477
Electric Cost per Mile: $.1201
Difference: My proposed EV cheaper than average gas car by
19%.
Over 150,000 miles, the GT6 EV will save me $4,140 over a
normal gas car.
Difference is, a normal gas automobile does 0-60 in 10-11
seconds or so, while mine will do the deed in < 7 seconds
and depending on motor redline(affected by motor choice),
could hit 140 or so with an 8,000 RPM redline. It will be a
sports car, which normally cost double a normal gas car or
more in maintenance. So in the event I get this efficiency
and range, I'm getting a damn good bargain. If I don't? I'll
still have an enjoyable EV. To me, having an enjoyable EV is
mostly what counts, although if I save money, it will be one
more thing to entice those curious with and a nice perk.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The bearings only have to go on from one side.
Granted this is a more complicated way to build motors, but still possible.
John's siamese motor proves that.
>
>>> What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the heavy stock
>>> flywheel
>>> ? Wayland mentioned replaceing the motor shafts in his ADC 8:" I am
>>> trying to find out if that can be done on the warp 9, if that isn't too
>>> bad, or I can have shafts made and send them to netgain to have
>>> incorporated into the motors, we can put a crank pattern on the shaft
>>> and eliminate the taperlock entirely.
>
> The shaft has to be small enough so as to slip the motor bearing over it ,
> cars engines get away with this by having 2 halfs which are not ball
> bearings.
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it was a bullet-proof partition, it was most likely not acrylic ( Lucite
is a brand name for acrylic), but is more likely polycarbonate. ( Lexan is a
brand name for polycarbonate).
Acrylic cracks easily; polycarbonate is much tougher. ( CDs are made of
polycarbonate)
It should cut easily ( try lower blade speeds than for wood) , but is fairly
soft, especially at high temperatures. The bolt and pin holes might deform
and elongate, resulting in the whole thing shifting around and losing
alignment,.
It would look cool, though, and is probably worth a try.
Phil
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:43:12 -0700
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that
a chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
skill saw with a carbide blade would c
ut this stuff. Maybe a router (act like a mill too), I know a water
jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the brand name of the hydrometeor that you use to get readings like
1.218. Where might I be able to get one?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
> David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > >
> > > > Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
> > > > hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
> > > > ISOLATED.
> > >
> > > If you're talking about Rich's PFC chargers, they are NOT isolated
> > > from the power line. I believe he now offers them with isolating
> > > transformers as an option, but last I heard he hadn't sold any. I
> > > guess most EV hobbyists are too cheap to pay for greater safety.
>
> To be fair, it is not just about being cheap. Rich's solution of
> offering large, heavy (and expensive) line frequency isolation
> transormers is a major kudge (in my opinion). His chargers are already
> high frequency switchmode devices, and adding the isolation internally
> in the form of a high frequency transformer is really the proper way to
> do it. Nobody in their right mind is going to shell out for a Manzanita
> Micro PFC charger to allow them to have universal input, high power
> charging on-board the EV and then install a bulky, heavy isolation
> transformer in the vehicle that most likely ties them back to a single
> line voltage input.
Oops, I must be in my left mind since I put an isotransformer on my charger.
Mark
--- End Message ---
