EV Digest 4241
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Phoenix races
by "Paulcompton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) was: Fast charge Li-Ion?, now cost per mile
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas, Emachineshop
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Convincing others that EV's are better
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Adapter Idea - acrylic or polycarbonate??
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) lucite ?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: was: Fast charge Li-Ion?, now cost per mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another 'Amazing Hawkers' story...or, How to Jump-start a Semi!
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by Doc Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas, Emachineshop
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Adapter plate ideas
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Adapter plate ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas, Emachineshop
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Electric Tractor in the works.
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: was: Fast charge Li-Ion?, now cost per mile
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have video footage of the races that took place at Firebird between
1996 and 1999, particularly the Street Stock class? I know there were quite a
few cable channel cameras out there so information as to who to contact would
also be useful.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/morini
___________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But typical lead battery cost is $1k every 10k miles or 10c per mile. In 40
miles, that's $4 plus 85c for electricity $4.85.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
> Rush wrote:
> > Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's?
>
> Unless I forgot how to multiply and divide,
>
> 40 (miles)* 200 (Wh/mile) = 8000Wh required;
>
> 8000Wh = 8000W of power * 1 hour time
>
> if you want 60 times less time (1 min) you must
> increase power 60 times to still deliver the same Wh, so
>
> 8000W *60 = 480,000 W
>
> (Verifying: 480,0000W * 1/60 hr = 8000Wh of electricity
> in one minute, all correct)
>
> > That means
> > that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it
would
> > cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
> >
> > Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
> >
> > Rush
>
> Huh? The rate of charge doesn't matter for cost calculation
> (neglecting efficiency losses).
>
> You pay for kWh, no matter how fast you charge.
>
> 40 miles trip takes 8kWh.
>
> So 8hWh * $0.1073/kWh in Tuscon = $0.8584 for 40 miles,
> which for a truck with 20 miles/gal consumption and $2/gal
> is $4 for 40 miles or 4.66 times more than EV in question,
> but you're still welcome to stick with your diesel truck if you like...
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:55 PM
Subject: Motor shafts (was Re: Adapter plate ideas)
> What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the heavy stock flywheel
> ? Wayland mentioned replaceing the motor shafts in his ADC 8:" I am
> trying to find out if that can be done on the warp 9, if that isn't too
> bad, or I can have shafts made and send them to netgain to have
> incorporated into the motors, we can put a crank pattern on the shaft
> and eliminate the taperlock entirely. Then I will concentrate instead on
> a new motor end that is large enough to bolt to the tranny or bolt to
> the tranny plate.
Hmm, I wonder if we could convince Netgain or ADC to make a stock motor
with a generic "crank pattern" end. Then we could have a generic
clutch/pressure-plate mating surface (minimal flywheel).
The minimal flywheel obviously wouldn't need starter gear teeth, and
wouldn't need to be any heavier or thicker than necessary for proving a
good mating surface for the clutch/pressure plate. I understand that
forged flywheels are prefereable for racing, but for low performance EVs
conversions, cast would probably be sufficient.
Perhaps the minimal flywheel could be designed to mate to a commonly
available (and relatively low cost) adapter plate. The converter could
then choose a clutch disc that matched their tranny input spline.
With a custom motor shaft, that this new minimal flwheel bolts directly
to, we could avoid the cost and additional depth of the taperlock hub.
This savings would be offset by the cost of the minimal flywheel.
Big advantage would be that the adapter plate wouldn't have to be as deep,
and there would be zero chance of the shaft twisting inside the
non-existent hub.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, whada y'all think?
I thought of that over 15 years, ago. The machine shop, said, how are you
going to take the end bells off, or how are you going to install the shaft in a
motor.
In a engine, they use a split friction type bearing that has a oil sump,
unlike a ball or roller bearing that a motor has.
How would you install a seal ball or roller bearings on the motor shaft?
The only way to do this, is to install a split engine bearing with a oil
system that would pump oil to these areas, recover the oil in a seperated
inclosed sump, go through a filter system, have a oil filler cap and a dip
stick. Have double or triple oil seal systems, so the motor does not get oil in
it. Have a oil leak detection system, with a oil pressure and oil temperature
gages.
Ok, I will used what I have now, so I do not have to used OIL!!
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried www.emachineshop.com to make an adapter? That might be a
good way to go.
Mark www.solectrol.com dc2dc converters, wind, solar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
> Try ordinary antifreeze as your cutting fluid on aluminum. You'll be
> absolutely amazed. That is what comes in a can of Tap-Magic aluminum
> cutting fluid. Propylene glycol doesn't seem to work as well as
> ethylene glycol.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:29 -0800 (PST), Reverend Gadget
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Cutting aluminum with carbide blade is really easy,
> >the trick is to use a carbide blade with zero degree
> >to a slight negative rake angle. That along with
> >squirt of WD-40 every couple of inches. I've cut
> >aluminum 4 inches thick this was with a dumb old skill
> >saw. just make sure you wear goggles, ear protection,
> >and long sleeves for the hot little chips. I run the
> >stuff on the table saw the same way. I sometimes
> >rough cut aluminum patterns with a jibsaw then trim
> >them with a wood template and a router with a guide
> >bit. The pieces look machined.
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: David Chapman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that a
chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque<http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque>
First, I would test the expansion rate of this material. I used this type of
material which I mill and drill. After a while, it developed small cracks
coming out from the drill holes.
My second design, was to drill a larger hole using a lathe cutting tools, not
a drill. Making aluminum inserts going into the drill holes, using two large
stainless washers on both sides of the inserts. It still developed cracks!
Third Design. Install plastic washers under the stainless steel washers and
torque evenly all around.
So far this method works. It's allows for expansion and contraction, which
causes the break up it not allow to move.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, PG&E has a program for EV chargeing that is only $.05 /kwh , You
agrre to have a seperate meter that is only used between midnight and 7 am
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They're called refractometers. Try E-bay.
--- ohnojoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the brand name of the hydrometeor that you
> use to get readings like
> 1.218. Where might I be able to get one?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:05:03 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: David Chapman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea
that a
chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if
a
skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque<http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque>
First, I would test the expansion rate of this material. I used this
type of material which I mill and drill. After a while, it developed small
cracks coming out from the drill holes.
My second design, was to drill a larger hole using a lathe cutting
tools, not a drill. Making aluminum inserts going into the drill holes,
using two large stainless washers on both sides of the inserts. It still
developed cracks!
Third Design. Install plastic washers under the stainless steel washers
and torque evenly all around.
So far this method works. It's allows for expansion and contraction,
which causes the break up it not allow to move.
Roland
Roland - If it cracks around holes, what you have is acrylic, not
polycarbonate, Acrylic really should not be used for any structural
purpose. A small, unseen crack can propagate with time and stress and cause
the whole piece to fail.
Polycarbonate is very tough and very difficult to crack. It may deform at
the bolted interfaces but will not crack. Polycarbonate is harder to find
than acrylic and about twice the cost.
To test what you have, pound on a small piece with a hammer ( against a hard
surface). If it shatters, it's acrylic. If it just deforms, it's
polycarbonate.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lucite or lexan
If it is lucite(acrylic) it won't be that strong a britlle material. If
it is lexan(polycarb) it would be strong for a while, but lexan goes
weak in the presence of oils, maybe there is no motor oil, but the
tranny will be bathing it in warm oil vapor.
But that would be so cool, maybe put one of thos little neon tubes
inside they make for computers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> :
> ... maybe through our EAA Orgs a NEW Tour de Volts, or Watts or Amps.
> :
> And Mike Bianchi to do the reports!
Yeah! That would be fun!
Consider also, please, that if you are going to do all that, you could contact
the NESEA and make it part of TdS 2006! A lot of the logistics would be done
for you and you can concentrate on the BEVs! T-Zeros, RAV4-EVs, Honda-EVs, and
home-brews of every stripe would be welcome, I am certain!
And bigger more varied events make finding sponsorships easier.
The TdS Autocross gives an opportunity to hear tire squeal, and also tests
other parts of the driver besides the right foot, *but* if NEDRA wanted to add
an EV drag race to the TdS, it would help draw audiences. In the past the Tour
has had both road-course and drag-strip events for the entrants. (They were
called "range" and "acceleration" tests.) Having an event for *real* EV drag
racers would be welcome, I'm sure.
*NOW* is the time to contact NESEA and express an interest in 2006. The
ground work for next year starts before the first day of the current year's
event. In late May is the time to contact them again and start making plans.
The TdS, like any multi-day event, takes an incredible amount of effort and
time. Many hands make light work. (Not a light bulb joke ;)
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True, but the battery cost is partially offset by not having to pay for
things like oil changes, other fluid changes, filter changes, tune-ups,
small parts (spark-plugs, EGR valves, etc.), and occasional higher cost
parts (timing belts, etc.). Motor rebuilds every 150-200K miles, etc.
> But typical lead battery cost is $1k every 10k miles or 10c per mile. In
> 40
> miles, that's $4 plus 85c for electricity $4.85.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
>
>
>> Rush wrote:
>> > Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's?
>>
>> Unless I forgot how to multiply and divide,
>>
>> 40 (miles)* 200 (Wh/mile) = 8000Wh required;
>>
>> 8000Wh = 8000W of power * 1 hour time
>>
>> if you want 60 times less time (1 min) you must
>> increase power 60 times to still deliver the same Wh, so
>>
>> 8000W *60 = 480,000 W
>>
>> (Verifying: 480,0000W * 1/60 hr = 8000Wh of electricity
>> in one minute, all correct)
>>
>> > That means
>> > that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it
> would
>> > cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
>> >
>> > Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
>> >
>> > Rush
>>
>> Huh? The rate of charge doesn't matter for cost calculation
>> (neglecting efficiency losses).
>>
>> You pay for kWh, no matter how fast you charge.
>>
>> 40 miles trip takes 8kWh.
>>
>> So 8hWh * $0.1073/kWh in Tuscon = $0.8584 for 40 miles,
>> which for a truck with 20 miles/gal consumption and $2/gal
>> is $4 for 40 miles or 4.66 times more than EV in question,
>> but you're still welcome to stick with your diesel truck if you like...
>>
>> Victor
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
"I bet you it starts in 30 seconds." At this point, he pulls his wallet
from his back pocket, opens it up, and displays hundred dollar bills,
saying, "OK, how much you wanna put up?"
Great story as usual John, you should'a taken his money :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
It is true what you say about the TdS being the premier event for EVs.
But looking at that press release it mentioned vehicles with a range of 150
miles or more. That's a magic number for a number of reasons.
Many hydrogen fuel cell cars just make that range. Many natural gas vehicles
just make that range. Many lead-acid BEVs don't. The NiMH EV-1s max was 140.
That 150 mile range has me suspicious. They made sure all the alt fuel
technologies make the cut but left the DIYs and even high end BEVs high and
dry.
The planners knew the BEV crowd was entering less vehicles each year. By
putting a minimum range requirement they ensured they wouldn't be bothered
with the EV category unless the TZero entered or the Sunrise resurrected
itself.
I would like someone official from the TdS to explain their reasoning behind
the 150 minimum range requirement. Lets hear it from the horses mouth.
Sorry to be so terse. But after the EV-1 crushing I'm personally not going
to take BEVs being dissed anymore.
To give TdS credit they do have a Plug-in Hybrid category.
Chip
On 3/30/05 8:11 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> From: "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:10:27 -0600
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
> Tour De Sol did not sell out. It's the lack of BEVs that show up to the
> race that has cause the transition. I started going in 1993 so I know how
> EV intensive it used to be, high school, college, independents, everyone.
>
> But the momentum waned by the end of the decade so we should be glad the TdS
> is even still around. Remember APS races in Phoenix?
>
> Sure, true EVers don't like hanging around the bio-diesels and HEVs, but the
> spirit is still the same, how to make our limited resources go further.
>
> BEVs never showed up because of prize money anyway. They did it for the
> fun, the experience, the learning about their cars and themselves.
>
> HEVs are finally getting a toe hold and it's events like these that the
> public come out to see. The public only saw pure EV rally races as a
> curiosity. Now they are starting to see vehicles that they can purchase
> (soon).
>
> This bridges the public (read volumes) to the technology that will be
> necessary to help our country be more self sustaining.
>
> BEVs will make a comeback, but don't kick sand in TdS's face. They are the
> ones that have stood steadfast for 17 years while the EV community ebbs and
> flows. Most EVers that did make it in the past did it on their own dime.
> Companies rarely returned too many times because it was hard for them to see
> a direct link to a return on the investment.
>
> If you want the TdS to be the primary EV event again, then enter your BEV!
> That is the only way EV attendance will grow and dominate the other
> categories.
>
> Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is where US EV AVOCATE types have to state thinking
outside the battery box. I've banged my head against that
wall since I joined the EV club, several years ago. I only ideas
that have come from the stars ringing my sore head are:
Start a foundation that will front the conversion cost that is
funded by donations or grants.
Start a conversion company that will 'finance' the conversion
and secure the cost with a lien or loan on the vehicle.
That's it so far, Doc Kennedy
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:54:59 -0600, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The other night, my parents fueled up their '98 Jeep Cherokee with an
> inline 6. Costs right about $40 to fill it up. It's very likely it
> gets filled up once a week. Some weeks, it's also very likely that it
> gets fueled up twice.
>
> For our estimate here, lets go with the once a week number. $2,080 a
> year in fuel costs. If the vehicle was converted over to say a 144v
> DC setup using either Optima's or AGM Exides, about how many years
> could they be expected to last? 3 or 4?
>
> 3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v pack.
>
> Looks like an obvious solution right? Well here is the rub: The
> upfront conversion costs. Any time I start to talk highly about
> electric and how much better it is, I always get asked "how much will
> it cost me to convert?". You all know how much it can be..
>
> If they are sensible and once they get over the "sticker shock", they
> start doing the math to see how many years it will take for the
> conversion to pay for itself in fuel savings.
>
> Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
> solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently
> don't much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there
> just no way to win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> >3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v pack.
>
> Your math doesn't work. $6,240 is 3,120 gallons of gas at $2/gallon.
The weekly fill up is $40, and 52 weeks a year. That's how I got my numbers.
The upfront cost for the battery pack would be $1200 and the
replacement cost would be $1200. The pack would be recharged every
night, so 365 recharges a year.
I think a 30 to 40 mile range could be had from the Jeep. A higher
pack voltage could be used to make it so if needed.
I think operating costs would be lower each year if it was electric.
(conversion costs not withstanding) Given enough time, and with
higher fuel prices, the conversion costs would pay for themselves in
savings in the long term.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$2! I wish! Glad my car gets good MPG. Just wish it was WH/M. (Is
that right? Watthours/mile?)
Ryan Stotts wrote:
The other night, my parents fueled up their '98 Jeep Cherokee with an
inline 6. Costs right about $40 to fill it up. It's very likely it
gets filled up once a week. Some weeks, it's also very likely that it
gets fueled up twice.
For our estimate here, lets go with the once a week number. $2,080 a
year in fuel costs. If the vehicle was converted over to say a 144v
DC setup using either Optima's or AGM Exides, about how many years
could they be expected to last? 3 or 4?
3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v pack.
Looks like an obvious solution right? Well here is the rub: The
upfront conversion costs. Any time I start to talk highly about
electric and how much better it is, I always get asked "how much will
it cost me to convert?". You all know how much it can be..
If they are sensible and once they get over the "sticker shock", they
start doing the math to see how many years it will take for the
conversion to pay for itself in fuel savings.
Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently
don't much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there
just no way to win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not an expert adapter designer (someone more experienced might
have been able to design one cheaper), but to my surprise the cost
was about the same for emachineshop or ElectroAuto. The emachineshop
prices went down alot if you ordered a large quantity.
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone tried www.emachineshop.com to make an adapter? That
> might be a
> good way to go.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I see it, as big consumerts for ADC motors, large distributors
like EV parts can contact manufacturer to produce a flavor of
motors with a flat flange at the end of the short shaft as one piece,
resembling ICE arrangement. So a flywheel can be directly bolted to
that flange. eliminating all these problems with coupling,
taperlocks, etc.
A user just drill and tap holes in matching flywheel hole pattern.
Ultimate solution IMHO.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Reverend Gadget, you are the king. Your method of handling the
flywheel is the best I have seen so far. I hated the fact that mine
ended up so tall, it costs me in adapter thickness. I even chose to move
it back a tad more to get the tranny shaft out of the warp 9's shaft so
a piot bushing failure won't take out the warp's shaft, of course I
thought the shaft was non changeable.? What would you suggest if I
wanted to avoid the heavy stock flywheel ? Wayland mentioned replaceing
the motor shafts in his ADC 8:" I am trying to find out if that can be
done on the warp 9, if that isn't too bad, or I can have shafts made and
send them to netgain to have incorporated into the motors, we can put a
crank pattern on the shaft and eliminate the taperlock entirely. Then I
will concentrate instead on a new motor end that is large enough to bolt
to the tranny or bolt to the tranny plate.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
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> What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the
> heavy stock flywheel
I was able to remove a fair amount of rotational mass
by removing the starter ring and about an inch and a
half of my flywheels diameter. you could probably thin
the it out as well. There are a lot of forces that are
no longer present in an ev conversion. such as the
vibration and torque pulses. some of the mass of the
clutch is there to disipate heat when sliding the
clutch. think about how thick a flex plate is for
mounting a big block to a torque converter. It's
barely an eight of an inch. It seems to handle the
torque just fine.
> ? Wayland mentioned replaceing the motor shafts in
> his ADC 8:" I am
> trying to find out if that can be done on the warp
> 9, if that isn't too
> bad, or I can have shafts made and send them to
> netgain to have
> incorporated into the motors, we can put a crank
> pattern on the shaft
> and eliminate the taperlock entirely. Then I will
> concentrate instead on
> a new motor end that is large enough to bolt to the
> tranny or bolt to
> the tranny plate.
>
That seems like alot of work, but peace of mind is
important. Has anyone had a taperlock failure? I
chose a 1/4 adapter thickness based on the strenth of
the 4 3/8 bolts holding my adater plate to the c face.
even thought this is a manual transmission the forces
applied are much more like an automatic, in that the
torque is smooth. Like the way a torque converter
smooths out the pulses. I find if I put it in
perspective, talking about a street conversion not a
dragster, the reaction torque is developed between the
rotor and the stator and the only thing holding the
stator is 4 5/16 bolts around the perimeter and some
friction. I would think that these would be the week
point. Has anyone had these fail?
> For the record, my plate is 5/8 thick. I chose 5/8
> to have enough meat
> for the dowels and the threaded holes and to handle
> torque reaction to
> the frame
> My spacer is a bell shape and that seems to be
> overkill, except it
> allows me to put motor and clutch onto tranny
> without removing adapter
> plate.
> I have a question about road vibration. Will the
> vibration be that bad?
> My thought is that motor mounts serve 2 purposes in
> a ICE setup ,
> protecting the occupants from the vibration from the
> ICE and protecting
> the mounting points from vertical loads like
> potholes and torque loads
> like from acceleration and deceleration.
>
> The DC motor won't have the high freq vibration like
> the ice and the
> potholes are unavoidable and same or less on engine
> than body. So just
> the torque shock is of concern?
>
The nature of the c face is that it is designed to be
stong enough to handle the torque load. you have the
strength of four bolts in sheer in about a 7 in
circle. however, I believe there should be some kind
of support for big impacts like potholes. this could
be as simple as a strap arount the motor supporting
it's weight. the c face will hold the motor no
problem, it's when that pothole comes up and bottoms
out the suspension that will put those mounting bolts
in tension, where they are nowhere nere as strong,
that I worry about.
> Is there an inexpensive way of measuring vibration?
>
no.
Gadget
Free advice is worth what you pay for it.
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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If it is from a bullet proof partition it is probably not lucite, but
polycarbonate. Polycarbonate has a very high impact strength and high
modulas of elasticity, so it might be ok for a adapter plate. It machines
quite easily, better than lucite.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman"
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
>I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
>bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that
>a chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
>coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
>skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
>like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
>
> David Chapman
> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
>
>
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emachineshop is considerably cheaper if you make a less complex piece.
If you take say a piece of plate steel and just want holes drilled or a
shape cut out, it's much cheaper than making a piece that must be milled
out of thicker stock because you need a raised edge or something of that
sort.
Also, picking the right machine affects the price quite a lot.
David Dymaxion wrote:
I'm not an expert adapter designer (someone more experienced might
have been able to design one cheaper), but to my surprise the cost
was about the same for emachineshop or ElectroAuto. The emachineshop
prices went down alot if you ordered a large quantity.
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone tried www.emachineshop.com to make an adapter? That
might be a
good way to go.
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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Roland Wiench wrote:
This is what a EV can do. Many persons can't stand to drive there
old car for any length of time, and must have a new to replace it.
Sorry to disagree, but this may apply only to a collectible cars
or ones having sentimental value.
If you convert '66 bug with super drive system and keep upgrading
the system, sorry, it will remain (and will be seen as) '66 bug.
And if you don't like or get tired of bugs in general, you won't
like yours, no matter what you do to it, EV or not.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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A neighbor bought a 22cc Mitsubishi motored gas scooter from Kragen. He
rang my bell asking for some help starting it. Took about 10 minutes of
fiddling and flooding it before getting it started. After starting I
suggested he take it to the bottom of our hill and see how it performed.
Came back with a long face. Said he had to push it up the hill helping it
on the steepest part. I was waiting with my son's Bladez standup much like
the gas scooter but of course electric drive. He took it up the same hill
and came back with an ev grin. "I zipped right up the hill" He said.. My
neighbor weighs about 162 and I am 250. We had a couple of races and off
the line I was faster he did catch up going up a slight hill but I hadn't
charged the scooter for a few days. Going back we were about the same
speed. He only has to do 6 miles to work. I told him an electric might be
better. He certainly was confused but agreed that he had a bunch of 110
plugs at work and could easily charge there. Kragen has a 60 day take back
policy. I think he should.take it back.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Greetings all,
With the help of Steve Clunn an Mitch Oats, I'm in the process of
converting my 1956 Alis Chalmers (sp?) to electric. Pictures of the
beast Pre-conversion can be seen at:
http://blue.celticmoonfarms.com/~ozzyman/Camerea/Farm/Tractor/
It is a WD-45 (gasoline) and according to the online literature, it has
a dry weight of about 4400lbs!!
I want it as a tilling / mowing / scraping machine. So here is what I
am looking at in terms of what I can do.
Motor: 9" GE (150lb 23 hp) from Mitch (if it still works) that came out
of his old Jet Industries Courrier.
Batteries: Two packs, each containing 6 US-145's charged in parallel
via 2 automatic golf cart chargers. Discharged in series for a 72 volt
system.
Controller: Not sure yet. With a strong 4 speed transmission, a
contacter controller with 4 settings 18v/resister 18v, 36v, 72v might
work well enough, but I'd rather put in a "modern" controller if I can
find one in the right price range (as in as cheap as possible).
I guess my real question is what kind of performance can I expect? I
know things like how wet the grass is, how hilly the yard is, etc will
make a difference, but I'm not sure I have enough batteries for a
reasonable run time, but I'm also not sure I can afford more.
I'm on a very tight budget, hence the 2 36v packs charged either
separately or in parallel. I already have 3 golf cart chargers that
could be used for the job, so I don't have to purchase a charger. I'd
love to have a nice pfc-30 or something like, but It's just not in the
budget.
Suggestions?
James
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Ryan,
Normally I stick to the technical topics, but I notice that all your replies
are mostly about money and had to chime in.
Your thread points to a real frustrating issue with our society. Most
people are concerned about their own pocketbook and how it impacts their own
selfish world. Most people don't really care about their impact on the
world or their environment around them. Most people are also short term
thinkers and do not care about long term or the big picture.
I am building an EV not because it is cheaper (which many have shown it is
not, most of all my conversion), but because I am sick and tired of all the
pollution I am creating. I also very much enjoy the conversion work. So it
has a selfish benefit as well as a environmental benefit. (OT: some may
argue that both are selfish motivations).
If the people you are trying to convince only care about their own selves,
then I doubt you will be able to convince them. However if they do care
about others and the environment, then you may be able to show them a valid
reason. However, if this is the case, they probably only have one car and
it might be a Geo Metro or a Smart car, or maybe they just ride a bike or
walk.
I focus my EV evangelism efforts on people who are environmentally minded,
do not mind the added expense to go "green" and, maybe, are also technically
capable of doing a conversion (or are willing to fork out the cash to have a
conversion done for them).
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: March 29, 2005 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
The other night, my parents fueled up their '98 Jeep Cherokee with an inline
6. Costs right about $40 to fill it up. It's very likely it gets filled up
once a week. Some weeks, it's also very likely that it gets fueled up
twice.
For our estimate here, lets go with the once a week number. $2,080 a year
in fuel costs. If the vehicle was converted over to say a 144v DC setup
using either Optima's or AGM Exides, about how many years could they be
expected to last? 3 or 4?
3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v pack.
Looks like an obvious solution right? Well here is the rub: The upfront
conversion costs. Any time I start to talk highly about electric and how
much better it is, I always get asked "how much will it cost me to
convert?". You all know how much it can be..
If they are sensible and once they get over the "sticker shock", they start
doing the math to see how many years it will take for the conversion to pay
for itself in fuel savings.
Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently don't
much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there just no way to
win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
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His question was calculating daily running costs per mile,
amortization of batteries aren't factored in.
Else he'd have to include maintenance/oil/emission tests/
spare parts/whatever else cost in per-mile calculations
for diesel too.
As we stated many times, running costs of EVs per mile are
far lower than for ICE.
However, maintaning EV over years will end up about the same
wheb battery replacements and other things are factored in
(labor aside).
Victor
Mark Hanson wrote:
But typical lead battery cost is $1k every 10k miles or 10c per mile. In 40
miles, that's $4 plus 85c for electricity $4.85.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Fast charge Li-Ion?
Rush wrote:
Fast or slow charging aside, are those numbers correct? 480 kW's?
Unless I forgot how to multiply and divide,
40 (miles)* 200 (Wh/mile) = 8000Wh required;
8000Wh = 8000W of power * 1 hour time
if you want 60 times less time (1 min) you must
increase power 60 times to still deliver the same Wh, so
8000W *60 = 480,000 W
(Verifying: 480,0000W * 1/60 hr = 8000Wh of electricity
in one minute, all correct)
That means
that from my elec co, (Trico, here in Tucson), at .1073 per kWH, it
would
cost $51 to recharge for a modest 40 mile trip.
Forget EV's, I'm sticking with my diesel truck....
Rush
Huh? The rate of charge doesn't matter for cost calculation
(neglecting efficiency losses).
You pay for kWh, no matter how fast you charge.
40 miles trip takes 8kWh.
So 8hWh * $0.1073/kWh in Tuscon = $0.8584 for 40 miles,
which for a truck with 20 miles/gal consumption and $2/gal
is $4 for 40 miles or 4.66 times more than EV in question,
but you're still welcome to stick with your diesel truck if you like...
Victor
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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I'd go to their website(3M?). You might get the specs. there. Might work.
LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that
a chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
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