EV Digest 4242
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Convincing others that EV's are better
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Adapter plate ideas
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas, Emachineshop
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Adapter plate ideas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV vs diesel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: EV vs diesel
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fwd: Re: Adapter plate ideas, heat disapation
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV vs diesel
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: American business model
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Adapter Idea - acrylic or polycarbonate??
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV vs diesel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electric Tractor in the works.
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Hi frequency xfmrs, was Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Adapter plate ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Adapter plate ideas
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Batteries
by "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Clutchless
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: Clutchless
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Clutchless
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: EV vs diesel
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: EV vs diesel
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Batteries
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Clutchless
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
35) Elections !!!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
36) Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
37) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
<< BTW, PG&E has a program for EV chargeing that is only $.05 /kwh , You
agrre to have a seperate meter that is only used between midnight and 7 am >>
Never was consideration in my equation, since I work nights and don't even get
home until after 7am! Add to that an employer with no electrical outlets
anywhere in the parking lot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid the
heavy stock flywheel
I was able to remove a fair amount of rotational mass
by removing the starter ring and about an inch and a
half of my flywheels diameter. you could probably thin
the it out as well.
Originally I did that, and removed on a lathe outer geavy part
where the starter ring was, and made it thinner too.
But how can you reduce its diameter if the pressure plate
bolts to the flywheel at the very edge (unless you go
clutchless)? Thus a flywheel cannot be smaller than the
pressure plate diameter, and they are not so much different,
at least on Hondas.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I'm not an expert adapter designer (someone more experienced might
have been able to design one cheaper), but to my surprise the cost
was about the same for emachineshop or ElectroAuto. The emachineshop
prices went down alot if you ordered a large quantity. >>
I used their design program to make a 1:1 schematic, brought the printout to a
local machine shop and paid half what emachineshop wanted and got it in a
couple days instead of weeks. Of course, that was basic
cutting/welding/bending, so it may not be apples-to-oranges!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The 50/60 Hz transformer Rich offers is both 120 and 240
> capable without any switches. Just plug it in exactly like
> the charger. It is a 10 inch toroid, 4 inches tall and weighs
> 65 pounds. It is about half the weight and volume of a square
> transformer of the same rating.
And what are its ratings? (I couldn't find any mention of the isolation
xformer on the Manzanita Micro site.) Oh, yeah, and what does it cost?
A 65lb transformer to add isolation for a 16-17lb PFC20/30 is ludicrous.
It starts seeming almost palatable if it can handle the full thirst of a
PFC50, but now you've got an isolated onboard charger that weighs well
over 100lbs total.
If the isolation transformer is holding down the floor of your garage
its not an issue, however, this just seems like a band-aid solution for
those who purchase a Manzanita Micro charger for use as an on-board
charger. Use a high frequency transformer for the isolation and you're
down to a 5-10lb weight penalty.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was able to remove a fair amount of rotational mass
> by removing the starter ring and about an inch and a
> half of my flywheels diameter. you could probably thin
> the it out as well. There are a lot of forces that are
> no longer present in an ev conversion. such as the
> vibration and torque pulses. some of the mass of the
> clutch is there to disipate heat when sliding the
> clutch. think about how thick a flex plate is for
> mounting a big block to a torque converter. It's
> barely an eight of an inch. It seems to handle the
> torque just fine.
A flex plate only has to handle torque; the flywheel also has to handle
the axial force due to operating the clutch.
The flywheel in a local EVer's Fiero was thinned down slightly. When
the pressure plate was installed, there was at least 1/16" (possibly
nearer to 1/8") clearance between the pressure plate bolts protruding
from the motor side of the flywheel and the aluminum adapter plate, yet
after installation the motor had to be pulled and washers placed on each
pressure plate bolt to keep them from rubbing against the adapter plate
when the clutch was operated. The ADC9" had just been torn down and had
fresh bearings installed and there was essentially no endplay that would
have allowed the motor shaft to shift and let the bolts contact the
adapter plate. The only explanation appears to be that the flywheel
itself flexes, even with a stock pressure plate (watch out if you
install a heavy duty/racing one).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:05 AM 3/30/2005, you wrote:
If the isolation transformer is holding down the floor of your garage
its not an issue, however, this just seems like a band-aid solution for
those who purchase a Manzanita Micro charger for use as an on-board
charger. Use a high frequency transformer for the isolation and you're
down to a 5-10lb weight penalty.
So, if it's so easy, design and BUILD one for sale. It can even put out DC
as PFC chargers can be made to accept it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Else he'd have to include maintenance/oil/emission tests/
spare parts/whatever else cost in per-mile calculations
for diesel too. >>
Diesels are cheaper per mile than their gas cousins - no emission tests, engines
are both heavier and more durable, and no "tune ups". Folks who drive MBZ
diesels say they are just getting broken in by 200K mi - use SVO or biodiesel
and you may be creating *less* pollution than the electricity generated in some
parts of the US.
I see diesel is always higher than premium now - it use to be cheaper than
regular! I thought it took less processing to make it, so the price change must
be totally economic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> I see diesel is always higher than premium now - it use to be cheaper than
> regular! I thought it took less processing to make it, so the price change
> must
> be totally economic.
>
Actually no. During cold weather, the demand for fuel oil and kerosene
severely dips into the available oil reserves. You can refine kerosene
or diesel fuel, or fuel oil out of crude oil, but not really all three.
So when the demand for kero and heating oil goes up the cost of diesel
goes up as well.
Supply / Demand.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> some of the mass of the
> clutch is there to disipate heat when sliding the
> clutch.
How about using some of the same techniques used with disc brake rotors.
Venting may be out of the
question, but how about drilling? The holes would reduce weight and promote
cooling. Rotors also
can have grooves cut in them to help out. Anything to reduce weight and promote
cooling should
help. What about thickness? Is there a good rule of thumb for how thick a
flywheel needs to be?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> I think the isolation solution was the MagneCharger. It's HF AC,
> so the actual transformer is small (it's a paddle) and it is
> pretty much the penultimate of "isolated"...
Not quite. A transformer is a transformer. It doesn't matter if all of
it is in the car (on-board), or all of it in the garage (off-board), or
half is in the car and half in the garage (Magnecharger).
The isolation depends on the insulation between primary and secondary.
Even the cheapest junk-grade transformers have isolation of over 1000
volts.
In fact, the high operating frequency of the Magnecharger forced tighter
transformer spacings which *lowered* the input-output breakdown voltage
limts compared to conventional transformers.
> Now that I think about it, any direct connect system to wall could have
> an isolation/ground problem. All you need is for your ground wire to
> fall off.
The same is true for the Magnecharer. You still need to ground the
chassis of the car for safety. Just because you are transformer isolated
does *NOT* guarantee that no ground faults can occur!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out
> of a bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the
> bright idea that a chunk of it might make a good adapter plate
> Yea or nay?
Nay. Acrylic (lucite or plexiglass trade names) is strong, but very
brittle, and melts at a low temperature. If a crack starts near one of
the holes, it would propagate clear to an edge. You motor could
literally fall off.
Or, the motor will get hot enough to soften or melt the acrylic -- more
big troubles!
There *are* plastics that would work. The U.S.Electricar Lectric
Leopards had masonite (pressboard) adapter plates about 1/2" thick! I've
also seen phenolic (bakelite) board used. I think that's what AC
Propulsion used on some of their EVs, to electrically isolate the motor
from ground.
Though I haven't seen it done yet, I'm sure fiberglass PC board material
would also work great. A "pet" idea is to take advantage of all the
short-run cheap PC board houses and free PC layout software. Layout a PC
board adapter plate. No copper at all, of course; we just want a drilled
and routed sheet. Buy (say) 10 0.062" thick PC boards, and epoxy them
together to have a 0.62" thick fiberglass adapter plate.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:17:29 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I see diesel is always higher than premium now - it use to be cheaper than
> regular! I thought it took less processing to make it, so the price change
> must
> be totally economic.
There's two reasons that Diesel could be more expensive than petrol
1) you're getting more energy per litre (and more mileage)
2) you're emitting a lot of particulate air pollution, considered to
be dangerous to health, which gasoline does not. Unless you happen to
have a pressure filter/catalyser on the exhaust and I've only seen
those on busses so far.
You definitely have emission tests on Diesels here, which involve
running the engine at maximum governed speed (foot to the floor with
no load). Road tax is also higher for diesels, and it is supposedly
based on CO2 emissions and pollution - EVs have zero to pay :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, No idea what it is and not sure how to tell. A friend of mine that also
gets into some strange venues says he thinks ballistic sheeting is usually
laminated so this might indeed be some type of acrylic as its very hard and
easy to polish but definately one piece. I had similar thoughts about the
light deal Jeff mentioned. Probably best to just cut it up and use for
insulators or trophys or something. Thanks for the input from all.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
If it is from a bullet proof partition it is probably not lucite, but
polycarbonate. Polycarbonate has a very high impact strength and high
modulas of elasticity, so it might be ok for a adapter plate. It machines
quite easily, better than lucite.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman"
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
I just got a 2' X 8' piece of 1" thick clear acrylic or lucite out of a
bullet proof partition (Union hall, LOL) and just got the bright idea that
a chunk of it might make a good adapter plate that would let one see the
coupler works. Clear and strong if a little heavy. Yea or nay? Wonder if a
skill saw with a carbide blade would cut this stuff. Maybe a router (act
like a mill too), I know a water jet will.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been out of town and am catching up on my email, so this is probably
out of date already, but I believe that to start a small business, it would
be ideal to partner with a kit car maker and use off the shelf parts as much
as possible. The unique part would be the body. Work with a local
university with a wind tunnel to design a very aerodynamic body. It could
look something like the EV1 or Sunrise, but if designed independently, would
not infringe on their intellectual rights. Design it to use the glass and
lights from a late model popular car (03 or 04) so aftermarket parts could
be used and would be plentiful if a replacement were needed. Design a
coupe, convertible, sedan, and maybe a wagon all with the same basic design.
Kit car companies are good at producing a limited number of bodies
inexpensively. Use a tube chassis common to kit cars and design in the
battery boxes. Having a surplus of battery space will allow the buyer to
choose among chemistries and capacities. Batteries chosen would then be
arranged for best weight balance. The same chassis would be used for all
bodies. The kit car company will already have suspension, brake systems,
etc. You might also be able to adapt an existing interior from the kit car
line. Drop in an existing electric drive train and you're ready to go. If
AC Propulsion ramps up their Scion conversions, the price of their system
should come down and would provide a very nice performing car. Once the
bodies are made, the cars should be able to be turned out fairly quickly.
Buyers could also elect to buy the vehicle as a kit and put in a more modest
AC system or a very high performance DC system or anything in between.
I believe the biggest drawback to starting a company, and one that Rick is
having trouble with, is that most people want to be able to test drive a car
before buying it, and also want very little to no wait time. Whenever I've
bought a new car, I've driven it off the lot that day. To make a go at it,
I think you'll need enough startup capital to produce a few of these to put
in showrooms for a test drive and to sell immediately. You'll also have to
have the parts in inventory to keep producing replacement cars for the ones
sold so you always have one or two to be displayed and purchased.
I believe someone said that the crash tests can be avoided if less than 500
of each model are sold each year, but I'd sure verify that before beginning.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. Wednesday said it signed an $88
million deal with the Department of Energy to build a fleet of 40 hydrogen
fuel cell vehicles and further develop the technology.
"Under the five-year program, the world's largest auto manufacturer will
spend $44 million to deploy fuel cell demonstration vehicles in Washington
D.C., New York, California and Michigan. The Department of Energy will
contribute the other half of the program's investment under an agreement
that expires in September 2009.
In a separate commercial agreement, Shell Hydrogen LLC will support GM by
setting up five hydrogen refueling stations in Washington, D.C.; New York
City; between Washington D.C. and New York; and in California."
That's $2.2M per car, at the astounding rate of ten a year, unless they
really ramp up and do all 40 at once. (Gasp!)
Let's see, that means in about 2012 they'll agree to "go into production"
and make 300 of them. In 2015, they'll call in all the leases and crush
them, declaring the whole project a failure. Too expensive, and the public
just wouldn't buy them. Oh, and there'll be a bunch of expensive but
useless refueling stations scattered around.
Sound familiar?
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Polycarbonate is very tough and very difficult to crack. It may deform at
the bolted interfaces but will not crack. Polycarbonate is harder to find
than acrylic and about twice the cost.
To test what you have, pound on a small piece with a hammer ( against a
hard surface). If it shatters, it's acrylic. If it just deforms, it's
polycarbonate.
Phil
Good tip Phil, did just that and it looks like what I have is most likely
Acrylic. So definately just good for insulators and plaques and such. Thanks
for the input.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> The 50/60 Hz transformer Rich offers is both 120 and 240 capable
> without any switches. Just plug it in exactly like the charger.
> It is a 10 inch toroid, 4 inches tall and weighs 65 pounds. It
> is about half the weight and volume of a square transformer of
> the same rating.
What's the power rating of that toroid, Joe? I have a bunch of 2kw 25
lbs toroids that would also work. In fact they can probably deliver 3kw
with fan cooling.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Though I haven't seen it done yet, I'm sure fiberglass PC board material
would also work great. A "pet" idea is to take advantage of all the
short-run cheap PC board houses and free PC layout software. Layout a PC
board adapter plate. No copper at all, of course; we just want a drilled
and routed sheet. Buy (say) 10 0.062" thick PC boards, and epoxy them
together to have a 0.62" thick fiberglass adapter plate.
Now, this is very clever idea Lee. You, however
will be hard presssed to find a manufacturer of a PCB
the size of a transmission bell housing, let alone routing
non-rectangular contours with irregular shape.
I have feeling that having PCB house to rout your plate
(10 plates really) is no different than have a machinist
to mill it on CNC table (cost wise). In case of machinist
you at least can subcon measurements; in case of PCB house
you musr design everything yourself and sibmit Gerber files.
But material wise your idea is very sound! Moreover, if you
pur PCB traces on the most outer layer (toward tranny), you can
easily surface mount on it, say, a shaft speed sensor...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
EXCELLENT work, John. It looks like a well-balanced and fair comparison!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
You definitely have emission tests on Diesels here, which involve
running the engine at maximum governed speed (foot to the floor with
no load). Road tax is also higher for diesels, and it is supposedly
based on CO2 emissions and pollution - EVs have zero to pay :)
I wish. Depends where you live.
In Oregon these smart minds just institute penalty for EVers for
the lost revenue of not having to pass emission tests and
hot having to buy gas in general. Your yearly EV registration
sticker just cost more here, so they get you this way.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Electric Tractor in the works.
> Greetings all,
>
> With the help of Steve Clunn an Mitch Oats, I'm in the process of
> converting my 1956 Alis Chalmers (sp?) to electric. Pictures of the
> beast Pre-conversion can be seen at:
>
> http://blue.celticmoonfarms.com/~ozzyman/Camerea/Farm/Tractor/
Hi James here are some pictures of a massey 135 that I converted a couple of
years back http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/196.html I used it for cleaning
and flooding the ice, used 72 volt battery pack of Trojan 125 and then used
US battery 2200. While I can't say for sure how long the pack would last
doing what you plan, I could get 3 -4 floods of 10 minutes each with the
hydraulics going before recharge. I found that using the hydraulics seem to
drain the pack much more then the drive motor. Unfortunately I did not have
a amp meter to see what the draw would be. Have one on order so perhaps this
summer I may hook it up and see what amps it draws. I had to have to motors,
one for drive and one for external hydraulics, I connected an old forklift
motor directly to the transmission using the center of an old clutch and the
end that was on the motor (took to machine shop and got welded together)
no clutch direct drive, can start in any gear with no problem. I would
advise you to pick up a controller if possible so that you can have some
control of speed, with my curtis controller I can make the wheels barely
turn in any gear, don't forget safety and have a breaker in line incase the
controller quits full on. I remember when I was experimenting with battery
voltages on the conversion , I had an old square D electrical box to make
contact , worked alright in the experiment stage untill I tried the higher
gears when it welded closed and I was going down the yard getting hold of
the cables to pull the conector.
Good luck
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm forwarding this on to the list for Rich:
From: "Rich Rudman"
Ryan...
First the AC ground IS connected to the charger case, as required to
properly ground the charger.
That side is complete if you have a AC ground the is competent from the
supply circuits. All our charger have this.
If the charger is bolted to your EV metal chassis, Well now... the
EV chassis IS now grounded to the charger... The whole EV and charger
are now grounded to AC ground. I Hope that AC ground wire really does
get back to earth!
All Manzanita Micro chargers have a Green wire on the DC output cable,
It is NOT connected to any of the DC outputs. It's there If you want
to bond the chassis to AC ground with a even more solid and reliable
method than the mounting bolts.
This solves the Hot car issue, if a fault occurs there is a path to
AC ground at all times. This should settle all the Safety issues.
Now the reality of it all:
If your chassis is grounded... and the battery pack and controller
are not... touching anything hot in the Car will result in a shock.
If you have a hard fault... you blow the charger and the breakers...
Safe again, but now you scrap $2000 worth of charging equipment.
Hey no problem I will make more...!!! and send you the Bill.
In a flooded battery EV, there will almost always be a small leak to
ground from acid mist and other stray paths. These will trip a 5
milliamp GFI all the time.
So a GFI, is asking for nuisance trips pretty much all the time. In
all EVs with graphite brushes... you will have a Low side AC leak to
chassis. without adding a 2nd contactor... more leaks.
Adding a iso transformer will solve all the tickles the leaks may
create... but they are heavy and can be expensive.
There is a solution that is not so drastic that has the advantage of
also indicating that you have a fault in progress. And that is to wire
the green ground of the DC side green wire through a 120 volt light
bulb to chassis ground. Then mounting the PFC charger to a insulated
plate so it's mounting is NOT a ground bounding feature. Then all your
stray leakages flow back through the charger's grounding wires to the
AC earth ground. First the little leaks that are not lethal are taken
away, if they become too large the GFI will open in the feed circuit,
and if there is a FAULT the light will light... and let you now that
there is a real problem, without breaking the charger.
So for most of us... low current leaks are a way of life, Iso
charger or not....Most of the leaks I get are in the few Milliamp
range, and are not felt. The only issue is if I am really well
grounded, like standing in a puddle of water and I am dumb enough to
reach in and touch a battery post.
I am designing a ISO charger ... out soon. this year, in like months. Just
so all this stuff can get put behind us. If you want to pay for it.
Ryan, please feel free to forward this to the list since I am not hooked
back up yet..
Use the Gage wire that I supplied in the DC cable, It's 10 gage, copper.
I don't have my chassis grounded. And My PFC30 is mounted to the
Plexiglas lid of my back battery pack. I use a NON isolated 208 feed
at the shop... and have never been even tickled. I do NOT do hard
chassis service on any EV that is being charged. For fun I should add
the light bulb circuit, just to show what leaks I don't have.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snipped>
If the isolation transformer is holding down the floor of your garage
its not an issue, however, this just seems like a band-aid solution for
those who purchase a Manzanita Micro charger for use as an on-board
charger. Use a high frequency transformer for the isolation and you're
down to a 5-10lb weight penalty.
Cheers,
Roger.
Roger, that was something that I have been wondering about. I have a bunch
of aircraft transformers (hi freq, 400 hz I believe) that I have thought
would be neat for isolation, but how would these work in a 50-60 Hz charger
scheme? I have always thought that transformers needed to be used in their
frequency range or they overheat. Some type of frequency "booster" then the
xfmr then a hi frequency charger? Always seemed to me that with a full wave
bridge charger, hi freq AC input would put out a fast pulsed DC which would
probably be good for the batteries. I have some hi freq large KVA AC
generators that I have always thought would be great one step range
extenders using a simple bad boy type rectification scheme. Sorry if this is
a dumb question but an EE I am not. Thanks David.
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--- Begin Message ---
I guess it depends on the car. My spitfire had an
extra 1/2 to remove.
Gadget
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Reverend Gadget wrote:
>
> >> What would you suggest if I wanted to avoid
> the
> >>heavy stock flywheel
> >
> >
> > I was able to remove a fair amount of rotational
> mass
> > by removing the starter ring and about an inch and
> a
> > half of my flywheels diameter. you could probably
> thin
> > the it out as well.
>
> Originally I did that, and removed on a lathe outer
> geavy part
> where the starter ring was, and made it thinner too.
>
> But how can you reduce its diameter if the pressure
> plate
> bolts to the flywheel at the very edge (unless you
> go
> clutchless)? Thus a flywheel cannot be smaller than
> the
> pressure plate diameter, and they are not so much
> different,
> at least on Hondas.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guess it depends on the car. My spitfire had an
> extra 1/2 to remove.
I meant 1 1/2" to remove
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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--- Begin Message ---
> "DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. Wednesday said it signed an $88
> million deal with the Department of Energy to build a fleet of 40 hydrogen
> fuel cell vehicles and further develop the technology.
>
-snip-
> That's $2.2M per car, at the astounding rate of ten a year, unless they
> really ramp up and do all 40 at once. (Gasp!)
>
Wow! Only $2.2M each, I wonder...how do you get on /that/ waiting list?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi list.
I have got a newbie question...
I was perusing the local Sam's Club today, and they have a rack of
Batteries.
Would any of these be acceptable for a starter EV or should I definitely
look else ware. I am just getting started, and want to build a test bed EV
without breaking the pocketbook!.
Here is what they had.
StowAway Golf Cart Battery
6V Group Size GC2 $46.63 each
110 min @75 amps
StowAway
ST31DC /600 CCA
12V 115AmpHours $65.23 each
12 V 105 Amp hours $49.57 each
They also had several Very Large bats
Heavy Duty Size 4DLT
250 RC 79.77 each(? What is RC)
These were als rated with CA and CCA but not amp hours.
Thanks for the comments
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less
expensive, and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears
though. I think that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of
the spinning motor coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the
syncros compared to if it only had the clutch disc spinning when
shifting? How fast does an electric motor spin down?
Any off the shelf ways to couple the output shaft of the motor to the
transmission input shaft? What method is used to couple to the motor
shaft?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
> I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less
> expensive, and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears
> though. I think that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of
> the spinning motor coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the
> syncros compared to if it only had the clutch disc spinning when
> shifting? How fast does an electric motor spin down?
I asked more or less the same thing a few months back. It kicked off a lot of
discussion, and I got a *lot* of great replies, both for and against.
Just in case the usual suspects are still worn out from that discussion :-) ,
check out here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/message/32389 for the question (subject:
Running Clutchless?)
and then the next few digests, such as:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/message/32390
for some of the replies.
Cheers,
Claudio
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--- Begin Message ---
ev-america.com will sell you an adapter for this purpose. Also, I think
grassrootsev.com will also manufacture a Lovejoy coupling for customers who
request it. In both cases, you send them the clutch disk with the splined
shaft on it and they integrate it into the adapter/coupling.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Clutchless
I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less expensive,
and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears though. I think
that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of the spinning motor
coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the syncros compared to if it
only had the clutch disc spinning when shifting? How fast does an electric
motor spin down?
Any off the shelf ways to couple the output shaft of the motor to the
transmission input shaft? What method is used to couple to the motor shaft?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Argh. Disregard my last message. It was meant to go to
Victor in private. My apologies.
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>In Oregon these smart minds just institute penalty for
>EVers for
>the lost revenue of not having to pass emission tests
>and
>hot having to buy gas in general.
If anything, they should be instituting a penalty for
producing air pollution and ground water pollution. Make
people and businesses pay for the damages associated with
the pollution they create, instead of punishing people that
are trying to leave less of an impact.
It's amazing how much damage to people and the environment
burning a single gallon of gasoline is responsible for,
especially when factoring in oil spills, storage tank
leakage, tax subsidies and oil wars. $6-20 per gallon
depending on which study you choose to cite.
Of course, I don't expect beurocrats to remove their heads
from their rectums anytime soon, in Oregon or here in
Missouri(Home of governor Matt Blunt, who tries to cut the
budget by rapidly doling out more corporate welfare
handouts!).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Were they deep cycle? If not, stay away from them. You can
get a small test pack of Exides for the same price as a few
of these.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Claudio Natoli wrote:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/message/32390
Thanks for that link.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Well, it's been 24 hrs since the volunteering
for officers was posted and we have a total of 2
volunteers, Jerry Dycus for President and Chris Seely
for Treasurer.
And in the wondeful way we are here was even a
volunteer for a post we didn't even have!! ;-)
And another nominated another, Lee for 2
postions, one that doesn't exist even but Lee never
volunteered himself as required so I assume he didn't
want it.
So that leaves us not even needing an election
unless a majority objects, We now have a President,
Jerry Dycus and a Treasurer, Chris Seely by default!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- Chris Seeley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>Wow! Only $2.2M each, I wonder...how do you get on
>/that/ waiting list?
I'd like to know as well. What I do know is that $2.2
million could have made about 50 EV1s in low volume, or for
$88 million, practically hand made 2000 EV1s. Wonder how
that figure would look with mass production.
I'm also curious as to how these vehicles will perform.
Econocrap? Yuck...
Fuel cells are a leap backwards from batteries due to the
expense and innefficiency of the fuel needed, the
maintenance of the fuel cell stack, the longevity(or lack
thereof) of the platinum membrane, the cost, and
power(again, lack thereof). Maybe if they built 600
horsepower 230 MPH capable FCVs for $2.2 million each, I
might be impressed. But a Honda FCX wannabe that performs
even worse won't cut it. Especially for $2.2 million.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen wrote:
> For the record, I have been shocked with sealed gel batteries and
> a BRUSA charger. It hurt. The suspicion at Solectria was that a
> capacitive coupling is what took place.
Yes! A GFCI does *not* protect against all fatal shocks. There are lots
of ways to get shocks, even with a GFCI.
For one, GFCI's use a transformer for current sensing, so they ignore DC
current imbalances. Since a charger inherently rectifies, and the
batteries are of course DC, there are plenty of ways for a fault to
create a DC current in the ground that the GFCI won't detect.
Another is that the GFCI transformer has a frequency response. It is
designed for 60 Hz, and works progressively worse as you go higher and
lower. Most switching power supplies operate at 15 KHz and above, where
the GFCI transformer won't trip until the fault current is considerably
higher than the "safe" 5ma limit.
Another problem is that there are substantial amounts of resistance,
inductance, and capacitance between any two points in a large "grounded"
piece of metal like a car body. Anyone familiar with RF can tell you how
easy it is to have one point on a piece of metal at 0 volts, and another
point *ON THE SAME PIECE OF METAL* at 100s of volts! The classic example
of this is that if you touch two points on even a low-power transmitting
antenna you'll get a shock! The high frequency chargers, motor
controllers, and even brush arcing can create enough RF to give you such
shocks.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
