EV Digest 4344
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ariana EV
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Home made charge question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) The JeepEV, Zilla, and contactor
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Home made charge question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The JeepEV, Zilla, and contactor
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Doh! JeepEV, Zilla, etc
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: CAN controlled charger (Re: GFCI with PFC?)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Wanted: home made parts(
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) SCR controllers?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: CAN controlled charger (Re: GFCI with PFC?)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Home made charge question
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Home made charge question
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Home made charge question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: The EClubman is registered
by "Ben Haines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) PFC-30 Charger (was RE: An update regarding my JeepEV)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Home made charge question
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Home made charge question
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: possible DCP controller issue - help
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: UPS = modular chargers?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: SCR controllers?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Mechanical PWM Controllers
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Home made charge question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Home made charge question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: SCR controllers?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have a friend (retired technician) in Melbourne who is going to see if he
can get a look & talk to the folks at Ariana EV. If he manages it I'll let
everyone know what he has found out.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Seth Allen wrote:
Too hot to touch in 5 minutes is way too fast to that up that much oil
and metal in a transmission.
It was roughly 5 miles, longer than a 5-minute trip in city traffic. But
yes, that's why I'm concerned. Though, the noisiness of the transmission
alone is bothersome...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> driving along in 2nd gear at 55 miles per hour (motor speed close to
> 5000RPM). At this speed I'm pulling say 150 battery amps to keep the
> Jeep at this speed on flat road. I then up shift to 3rd so I can go
> faster. Okay, now I'm going about 60-65 miles per hour in 3rd gear
> (motor speed unknown), and I'm basically having to floor it to maintain
> this speed,
You should really get a tach hooked up. When you throw it in 3rd, it
might be dropping the motor to an absurdly low rpm. With a tach,
you'll be able to really rap out the motor and not worry about blowing
it up. Also the rpm limiter the Zilla has when you hook up the tach
adapter will protect the motor from being over revved, not to mention
the "stall detect" feature:
$42 for the speed sensor:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/accessories.html
Get an aftermarket tach since it will more then likely be more
accurate then the many year old factory one is.
> drive, my transfer case was warm to the touch and my transmission was
> almost too hot to touch. My transmission currently has 75W90 gear oil in
> it now (as per spec.). I've been wanting to replace it with synthetic
> oil (like I did in my axles), but it has a small perpetual oil leak
> which I'm afraid would turn into a large leak if I use a thinner
> synthetic fluid. :-/
Where exactly is it leaking? The seal is most likely external and
easily replaceable.
You could try this stuff:
"Use Lucas Oil Stabilizer in gear oil to stop leaks, reduce operating
temperatures and increase the life of the gear oil."
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=25&catid=2&loc=show
O'Reilly Auto sells it if you have one of those parts stores around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building my
first charger. It's
not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop tasks.
It's just a variac,
bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At first
blush it seems to
work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac allows
me to adjust voltage
up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more deliberate
about it.
If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the variac
turned down and
then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the voltage?
Does it automatically
stay under control?
I installed the smoke in this charger and I'll be damned if I'm going to let
any out.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and Everyone,
First off, I'm a dad again (baby #2 - girl!). Second, I read Nick's
post, and got that "oooh! I think I know what the problem is"
sensation. Nick wrote:
Several times recently, when I've been pulling high battery/ motor
currents for like 5+ seconds at a time (i.e. flooring it to accelerate
up a large hill). my Zilla 1K has randomly freaked out on me. In doing
so, it throws out the main contactor leaving me powerless :-/. Otmar
has been great at helping me to figure out what's causing this, and
hopefully I'll have time to try/implement some more of his suggestions
soon to see if they make the problem disappear. Of course, if I was at
least able to consistently recreate the problem, that'd be helpful too...
Nick, I've seen the *exact* same thing! It happens when the stupid
improperly sized connector slips off one of the relays to one of the two
Iota DC/DC converters. So here's my theory - you pull big amps, your
pack voltage drops, the output of your DC/DC drops, the draw on your 12V
system increases (I think my MR2 pump is the killer), and the 14V SLI
input of the Zilla sees less than it's low-value tolerance. So the
Zilla basically shuts down, the main contactor opens, and there you are
without power. To get back on the road, I have to clear the errors in
the Hairball, turn off the ignition (removing power from the Hairball),
and then it will start again. Otmar - I'd be interested in the text of
your replies to Nick on this issue.
Nick, maybe there is some way you can rig up some sort of data-logger to
see what your 12V system voltage does in real-time? This would be
useful to see just how low it sags at certain points of operation. I've
been wanting to do this to analyze the 12V system trends.
I'm wondering if maybe a big capacitor on the 12V system, or one on the
14V SLI input (which would effectively just be on the 12V system) of the
Hairball might help. Related question - would some big caps on the
traction pack help with power runs? I mean, it seems like the battery
packs sag under heavy load diminishes the fun-factor some. If you could
help that sag even a little bit with some big caps, would that help
performance significantly? If so, where can one go looking for such caps?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most chargers are classified by how the current is controlled.
You have a classic "Variac Charger."
You control the current with the knob on the variac. Be careful. There is no
current until the crest of the AC waveform exceeds the voltage of the
battery then the current rises very quickly.
If you want to implement a two stage or three stage charge profile, you will
need to put a motor on the knob and program a controller to turn the motor
to adjust the knob.
Be sure to fuse and measure the current at the output of the bridge going to
the battery. You should also put a fuse between the variac and the bridge.
If there is a problem, this are where you will need the overcurrent safety.
It would also be appropriate to put a GFCI or isolation transformer on the
input of the variac to reduce the shock hazard. The GFCI is lighter but is
subject to nuisance trips. The isolation transformer is heavier but immune
to nuisance trips. Either one will reduce the hazard. Some people like both.
Others like one or the other. Some people don't mind running without. You
are the designer and you are the user. You make your choice and build it
your way.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Home made charge question
> Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building
my first charger. It's
> not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop
tasks. It's just a variac,
> bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At
first blush it seems to
> work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
> hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac
allows me to adjust voltage
> up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
> extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more
deliberate about it.
>
> If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the
variac turned down and
> then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the
voltage? Does it automatically
> stay under control?
>
> I installed the smoke in this charger and I'll be damned if I'm going to
let any out.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> Nick, maybe there is some way you can rig up some sort of data-logger to
> see what your 12V system voltage does in real-time? This would be
> useful to see just how low it sags at certain points of operation. I've
> been wanting to do this to analyze the 12V system trends.
How about a 60 amp ammeter hooked up to the DC/DC for ~$40?
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1558&prmenbr=361
Instructions:
http://www.autometer.com/download_instruction/642D.pdf
Slightly smaller chrome one for $30:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1554&prmenbr=361
At least you'll know if something is pulling it down near 0.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again,
I knew that was going to happen. I just started poking through the next
list digest, and found that Steve Clunn came to the same conclusion I
had about the Zilla opening the contactor. Way to go Steve! Yeah, I
think a bigger DC/DC is in order.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: CAN controlled charger (Re: GFCI with PFC?)
> I may be mistaken and/or in over my head here, but I don't think the PFC
> chargers will do this without a supplemental charge controller - which
AFAIK
> has not been designed, much less debugged. (Rich, please correct me if
I'm
> wrong about this.) The PFC's charge control is a fairly rudimentary analog
> design which apparently works best when relying on somewhat smartened
> bypass regulators for part of the input. (Again, corrections welcome.)
If this
> be true, you will probably have to implement most or all of the
intelligence
> you need in your external CAN control box.
The charger is programmed with a 0 to 5 volt analog signal.
Bulk control is 0 for zero amps and 5 volts for rated current (20 amps for
PFC-20, 50 amps for PFC-50, etc.)
The acceptance voltage is 0 for zero volts and 4 volts for 400 volts.
If you want to control the current remotely, just connect a programmable
variable voltage source (like an ADAM-4021
http://www.advantech.com/products/Model_Detail.asp?model_id=1-UE7L9&BU=EA&PD=
for an RS-485 device) and control it from whatever protocol you want. I am
not aware of any CAN bus modules like this. Can someone help me out with
this?
I have a version of this scheme that has been running on a PFC-20 for over a
year and it is very useful. I have charged and discharged everything from
cordless phone batteries to a set of six STM-180 wet NiCads with it.
Rich had a version of this running on three paralleled PFC-50s in his shop
to charge his stack of Orbitals to verify the Regbus feedback is stable.
Bulk phase on Orbitals is amazingly brief at over 100 amps.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I was leaning towards a 120v DC and a 9" advanced DC
motor for my truck project.
Besides making your own shunts, what other "home brew"
plans are available?
I was wondering about the battery charger, as well as
the motor controllers.
Thanks!
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it worth using a SCR motor controller, if you are
just starting to get involved with your first ev
project, and you don't want to spend too much money?
Do they work OK with the advanced DC 9" motors?
Are there any brands or model #'s known?
thanks!
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't do this sort of thing at this level, but phytec has a bunch of
CAN devices from SLIOs (serial line I/O) on up. Maybe a CAN node or a 8
bit CAN capapble SBC from them might be worth looking at?
http://www.phytec.com/can/hardware/cansbc/cansbc.htm
Many others have 8051 knockoffs and CAN.
HTH
Seth
On May 7, 2005, at 3:24 AM, Joe Smalley wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: CAN controlled charger (Re: GFCI with PFC?)
I may be mistaken and/or in over my head here, but I don't think the
PFC
chargers will do this without a supplemental charge controller - which
AFAIK
has not been designed, much less debugged. (Rich, please correct me
if
I'm
wrong about this.) The PFC's charge control is a fairly rudimentary
analog
design which apparently works best when relying on somewhat smartened
bypass regulators for part of the input. (Again, corrections
welcome.)
If this
be true, you will probably have to implement most or all of the
intelligence
you need in your external CAN control box.
The charger is programmed with a 0 to 5 volt analog signal.
Bulk control is 0 for zero amps and 5 volts for rated current (20 amps
for
PFC-20, 50 amps for PFC-50, etc.)
The acceptance voltage is 0 for zero volts and 4 volts for 400 volts.
If you want to control the current remotely, just connect a
programmable
variable voltage source (like an ADAM-4021
http://www.advantech.com/products/Model_Detail.asp?model_id=1-
UE7L9&BU=EA&PD=
for an RS-485 device) and control it from whatever protocol you want.
I am
not aware of any CAN bus modules like this. Can someone help me out
with
this?
I have a version of this scheme that has been running on a PFC-20 for
over a
year and it is very useful. I have charged and discharged everything
from
cordless phone batteries to a set of six STM-180 wet NiCads with it.
Rich had a version of this running on three paralleled PFC-50s in his
shop
to charge his stack of Orbitals to verify the Regbus feedback is
stable.
Bulk phase on Orbitals is amazingly brief at over 100 amps.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EVList <[email protected]>
Subject: Home made charge question
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building my
first charger. It's
not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop
tasks. It's just a variac,
bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At
first blush it seems to
work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac
allows me to adjust voltage
up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more
deliberate about it.
If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the
variac turned down and
then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the voltage?
Does it automatically
stay under control?
I installed the smoke in this charger and I'll be damned if I'm going to
let any out.
Thanks
Dave Cover
I've read ( somewhere, I don't remember where) that the batteries are better
off if you add some capacitance ( a few big electrolytics) to the output of
this kind of charger ( right after the bridge).
Is this really true? Do the batteries care if the charging current is
rippling DC rather than flat DC? Anyone have experience charging both ways?
Does this affect battery life? ( or, battery heating, for example)
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EVList <[email protected]>
Subject: Home made charge question
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building my
first charger. It's
not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop
tasks. It's just a variac,
bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At
first blush it seems to
work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac
allows me to adjust voltage
up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more
deliberate about it.
If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the
variac turned down and
then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the voltage?
Does it automatically
stay under control?
Turning the variac knob will change both the current and the voltage. The
relationship between the voltage and current will depend on your batteries.
Specifically it will depend on the nominal pack voltage, size and type of
battery, battery temperature, battery age, state of charge, etc. So, this
relationship will change as the batteries charge ( and/or change
temperature).
So, you can set the current to whatever you want wth the variac knob. And,
if you leave the knob alone, the current will change (drop) as the
batteries charge. And, the voltage will rise.
Or, you can set the voltage to whatever you want with the same knob. You
just can't set both independently.
I'm building an automated ( motorized) variac charger with two-stage
charging. During the first phase, it will control current ( and keep it
close to constant) , and during the second phase it will (hopefully) control
the voltage and keep it constantly. All of this is done just by turning the
single variac knob with a 12VDC gearmotor.
So, you could do the same thing by hand just by watching the current and
voltage and periodically adjusting the knob. Just don't forget about the
charger and let it cook the batteries.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,
The variac AC voltage input adjustments should vary the DC voltage at 0 amps
when it is not connected to any load or battery. When it is connected to a
battery and the variac is turn all the way down, you should still get 0 volts
at 0 amps on the AC side.
If you have a AC voltmeter on the AC side of the bridge and a DC voltmeter and
DC Amp meter or Shunt and Amp meter on the DC Side, you be able to read the
results which would be 0 volts and 0 amps on the AC side. On the DC side, you
will read the standing battery volts and 0 amps.
Now when you start turning up the variac, you will note that the AC and DC
voltage rises. If a 12 volt battery has a standing voltage of 12.5 on it and
you turn up the voltage where it reads 12.6 volts, than you should see a slight
rise of amperes.
Continue to turn up the variac, you will see that the DC voltage RISE and the
DC ampere will RISE. On a 12 volt battery or for every 12 volt battery, the
maximum voltage you want to go to is about 15.46 volts for a balance charge and
15 volts for a normal or bulk charge.
The ampere will rise as the voltage rises. On a discharge battery, you may
only get to 13 volts on the DC meter and the ampere could be as high as 20 amps
or more. So you will have to limit your ampere limit with the variac
adjustments.
Lets say you set the variac so the AC voltage is at 15 volts or higher and the
DC battery charging current is now at 20 amps and the voltage is at 13 volts,
the voltage will continue to rise while the ampere will drop just like any
taper type charger.
This setup is normally a variable AC voltage type with variable DC voltage and
ampere.
Roland
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cover<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVList<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 11:31 PM
Subject: Home made charge question
Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building my
first charger. It's
not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop tasks.
It's just a variac,
bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At
first blush it seems to
work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac allows
me to adjust voltage
up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more
deliberate about it.
If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the
variac turned down and
then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the voltage?
Does it automatically
stay under control?
I installed the smoke in this charger and I'll be damned if I'm going to let
any out.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would you be willing to give me any tips with when dealing with sydney's
RTA? I too live in sydney and I am in the process of a conversion now
and I have been trying to get some responses from the rTA but so far no
luck.
Thanks
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: Friday, 6 May 2005 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: The EClubman is registered
Hi all,
Just a quick note to let you know that my electric PRB Clubman is now
registered and ready to drive the streets of Sydney.
He he - it only took two years :-)
It's not finished yet, of course, but is finished enough for the RTA to
let me drive it on the road.
Mark Fowler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, I just went through this.
You are correct, the finishing stage does take longer than the bulk stage.
As you suspected, the timer just shut off the charger before finishing was
complete. Here is what I did to figure out the correct timer setting for
the New Beetle:
1. turn off the all the timers completely
2. do a typical run and then charge. Record the distance travelled, time to
bulk charge, time to finish charge (below 1 amp). I have meters hooked up
to display my voltage and amperage for this purpose.
3. do step 2 multiple times with various different runs. You will get a
good feel of how long it takes to charge your pack under various conditions.
4. with the above information, I estimated that the finish charge, at worst
case (50% DOD) takes about two hours
5. then set the timer to the appropriate value. There is a little tiny mark
on the rotary switch. When it points at 3 o'clock, the timer is set to zero
minutes. Each click is approx 10 minutes. Forty minutes is straight down.
Eighty minutes is to the right.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: May 6, 2005 7:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
Hi,
Okay, I watched and timed a complete charging cycle this evening, as my
PFC-30 charger still seems to be shutting off too soon. I was charging from
a 240-Volt, 30-Amp outlet. My pack was pretty low as I drove about
14 miles (I know, I know, very lame range). Here's what I noticed:
4:30pm Start charging - Constant Current
(never really gets above ~29 output amps due to thermal limit)
5:45pm Switches to Constant Voltage, timer phase 1
(blue LED blinking slow, ~29 Amps still going into pack)
6:08pm Constant Voltage, timer phase 2
(blue LED blinking faster, ~14 Amps still going into pack)
6:17pm Constant Voltage, timer phase 3
(blue LED blinking fastest, ~6 Amps still going into pack)
6:23pm ~6 Amps still going into the pack, and the timer times-out
(blue LED lit solid, charger shuts off).
First of all, I thought that the constant voltage "finishing" stage is
usually supposed to take longer than the bulk charging, to ensure that the
battery current tapers off correctly. This bulk charge took 1 hour
15 minutes while the constant voltage finish charge took only 38 minutes...
sounds way to short to me. As there is a likely chance that my batteries are
sulfated(?), would that result in the really quick current tapering that I'm
seeing?
Also, _unlike_ before, I actually have set my PFC-30's timer setting to a
longer time interval. The rotary switch is set to "8", which is supposed to
make the timer last 80 minutes (if I'm reading the manual correctly)?...
much longer than the 38 it did today. Because it timed out so soon, my
battery current never tapered below about 6 amps, which I assume to be bad
since they should be charged until the current drops off to like two amps.
Thanks again for everyone's great advice,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Hi all,
Great thread, just what I need to start understanding what a charger is. And
start building one.
Can someone send me a schematic so I can get the parts together?
How do I size the variac and bridge rectifier (which is also a shotsky diode?)?
Does the variac have to be sized to the Pack V? If so, how do I add batteries
later to increase pack V, oversize the Variac now?
How do I make it adjustable for 110 V and 220V input? Will the variac handle it?
Joe Smalley said to put a V meter and fuse between the Variac and Bridge, and
also a A meter and fuse between the rectifier and pack, and put a GFCI at the
input. Should that be a hardwired GFI circuit breaker? To make it into a 2
stage charger put a motor/controller on the variac knob.
Phil Marino was asking about putting in a capacitor after the bridge (to smooth
out the charging current?). How are you programming your 12 VDC motor to see
and respond to the current and voltage?
Roland was talking about the process of charging, looking at voltage rise, amp
rise etc and setting limits. Can I safely assume that for a 6 V system the
balance voltage, bulk charge and other values given should just be half of the
12 V value? Can I use a shunt like the homemade one we are talking about in
another thread?
Lee, how can this charger be integrated into your battery balancer?
I hope that all these questions aren't too basic, but it seems like I am
getting dangerous with all this knowledge that I am starting to accumulate and
need to get safe with some details on how to do it...
Any other comments on what to put in it would be appreciated.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: Home made charge question
> I'm building an automated ( motorized) variac charger with two-stage
> charging. During the first phase, it will control current ( and keep it
> close to constant) , and during the second phase it will (hopefully) control
> the voltage and keep it constantly. All of this is done just by turning the
> single variac knob with a 12VDC gearmotor.
>
> So, you could do the same thing by hand just by watching the current and
> voltage and periodically adjusting the knob. Just don't forget about the
> charger and let it cook the batteries.
>
> Phil
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Could you post the schematic? I would like to have a copy - I have a couple
50 amp torodial transformers, and a couple large variable resistors, and
parts for a bridge, and would like to play at making a variac.
If it is an attachment, send it to my e-mail directly. Or give me a web
address with the schematic.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Home made charge question
> Thanks to the list and a schematic from Jerald, I just finished building
my first charger. It's
> not supposed to go in the car, just help me with some simple benchtop
tasks. It's just a variac,
> bridge rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan. At
first blush it seems to
> work Ok. I put a meter to the output and I get adjustable DC voltage as
expected. Now before I
> hook it up to any batteries/cells, I have another question. The variac
allows me to adjust voltage
> up and down, but how do I control current? I've seen the posts about using
light bulbs or
> extension cords to control current. But I'd rather be a little more
deliberate about it.
>
> If I understand the way this works, you connect the charger up with the
variac turned down and
> then crank it up to get the desired current. What happens with the
voltage? Does it automatically
> stay under control?
>
> I installed the smoke in this charger and I'll be damned if I'm going to
let any out.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
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On May 4, Bob Bath wrote in the thread "Re: DANGIT! Old 600A Raptor
let the smoke out.today":
If anyone is keeping count, I'm another customer now
to upgrade the 600A Raptor to a 1200 Peter Senkowski
To a what? Is some one repairing DCP controllers at this time? I have
a hunch that the DCP 450 in the Rabbit Pickup may need some work. What
started as a stutter turned into a no-go after the owner went over some
rough railroad tracks way to fast.
I'll suggest she try disconnecting the rpm sensor first, and if that
doesn't work (and its unlikely to) plug it back in and check the small
connections to the DCP (make sure the wires are in place and that it is
staying plugged in.) If that is all good she may need to have to get
the connections between the control board and power board redone. We
have already gone over throttle linkage function and throttle
adjustment.
Does my analysis of the situation sound correct?
Thanx for all the help!
Paul "neon" G.
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The fixed industrial-type UPS's (5kw and up) seem to do a good job
of keeping batteries alive. However, pretty much all server room and
consumer UPS's tend to kill the batteries very quickly (within a year or
two.) This includes APC and Trip-Lite free-standing and rackable
models 3,000VA and below. Just my experience working in data
centers and server rooms.
Tim
-------
> > Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:30:46 -0700
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: UPS = modular chargers?
>
> > The electronics recycling businesses around here are scrapping
> > plenty of UPS units with bad batteries.
>
> The fact that they have bad batteries is a hint that they don't do a
> very good job. With proper charging, a battery can easily last 10 years
> or more. With el-cheapo charging, it will be shot in a year or two.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
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Hello Mike and All,
mike golub wrote:
> Is it worth using a SCR motor controller, if you are
> just starting to get involved with your first ev
> project, and you don't want to spend too much money?
Sure, as long as you can put up with its limited power delivery and noisy
operation.
Forklifts, though very powerful, operate on gear reduction and only have to run
at low
speeds, so they can get by on 10-18 kw of traction power. That's minuscule
compared to a
road going EV that needs a LOT more power than that in order to be on par with
the gas
powered cars and pickups on the road. Even a small and very light conversion,
say a Geo
Metro or Datsun 1200, needs at least 50 hp to feel adequate and to be able to
safely merge
into traffic, pull hills, etc. After figuring losses and all, 50 hp is about 50
kw, or
about three times the power you can get from a typical SCR forklift type
controller. Most,
run at 24-36V and up to 500 amps. Some can go up to 48V and 500 amps, so that's
closer to
25 kw, still not enough.
There 'are' other SCR controllers that run at 72V, but these are not common and
are not
usually found surplus at all.
Because the SCR based forklift controllers switch at varying lower frequencies,
they
produce a very audible growl through the drive motor so that when you first
take off, it
sounds like, "EEE---YEEEYAW" In the forklift world, the sound is familiar and
sometimes
wanted as it lets you know the machine is alive in the noisy warehouse
environment. Unlike
the totally irritating non-varying 2 khz squeal of the Curtis controllers, the
SCR 'growl'
is lower in frequency, varies, and is more 'entertaining' than irritating. That
said, I
feel any appreciable noise generated by a controller in a road going EV, is
unacceptable,
so for me, that includes SCR type noise.
>
> Do they work OK with the advanced DC 9" motors?
Very well.
>
> Are there any brands or model #'s known?
>
> thanks!
Without a doubt, the industry standard SCR controller, is the GE 'EV100'. It is
compact
but heavy, can be programmed with a handset, and is very durable. Heavy current
silicon
parts are easily exchanged, as is the commutating capacitor. The controller
'card' is its
brain, also very easy to swap out. The EV100's predecessor was the 'EV1'
controller, but
the EV100 is hands down a better design, in my opinion.
EV list member Rod Howard is an expert on the EV100 controller, as he did a lot
of the
design work on the LX version, I believe...Rod?
See Ya......John Wayland
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On the conical Mechanical PWM that was being discussed, does the arcing
occur only as the brush gets close to making contact? In other words, once
any portion of the brush is touching metal, does the arcing cease?
Bill Dennis
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Dave Cover wrote:
> finished building my first charger... It's just a variac, bridge
> rectifier, mechanical timer switch a couple of fuses and a fan...
> The variac allows me to adjust voltage up and down, but how do I
> control current?
The variac knob controls both current and voltage. On a variac charger,
you should permanently install a voltmeter and an ammeter. Without
meters to know what you're doing, you can easily set the knob to absurd
levels and kill something.
I'd also suggest installing a circuit breaker on the AC input rather
than a fuse. Mis-adjustment of the knob is going to blow the fuse often.
It's much easier to reset a circuit breaker than replace fuses.
Starting with the knob low, the charging current will be zero. As you
turn up the knob, the voltage rises but the current stays at zero until
you reach the point where the charger's voltage exceeds the battery's
voltage. As you turn the knob above this point, the voltage barely
rises, but the current rises quickly.
Charging is an entirely manual process. You crank up the knob until you
get the desired charging current and voltage, and wait the desired time.
You'll have to keep readjusting the knob from time to time as the
battery charges.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Philip Marino wrote:
> I've read that the batteries are better off if you add some
> capacitance (a few big electrolytics) to the output of this
> kind of charger (right after the bridge). Is this really true?
No. 99% of all battery chargers have little or no filter capacitors. The
ones that do have them to protect the charger -- the batteries
themselves don't care. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that pulsed
charging currents actually improve battery performance.
The only exception is when a large charger is asked to deliver very low
currents -- for example, a large 20-amp charger that is float charging a
very small fully charged battery at 0.2 amps. With no filter capacitors,
the charger is likely to actually be supplying high-current pulses only
a few percent of the time (like 5 amp pulses at a 4% duty cycle = 0.2
amps average). The high peak currents into a fully charged battery cause
extra gassing and grid corrosion.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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mike golub wrote:
> Is it worth using a SCR motor controller, if you are just starting
> to get involved with your first ev project, and you don't want to
> spend too much money?
SCR controllers are an older, simpler technology. Noisier and a little
less efficient, but if you can get one used for a good price, they'll
work fine.
> Do they work OK with the advanced DC 9" motors?
Yes.
> Are there any brands or model #'s known?
Lots of people made them; GE, Cableform, Sevcon, etc.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Humm something sounds a bit off here.
First the PFC30 is supposed to make 39.5 amps into a 120 volt stack, And for
the first 5 minutes, you better see that 39.5 amps. Once the yellow starts
flashing, then you should see the amps fall as the unit goes into thermal
cut back. Hot weather, and lack of really cool air can affect this power
point. And does often. The PFC30s make more heat than they can get rid of.
But are protected while doing it.
Bigger fans and Liquid cooling are the solution. But I can't get much
more power through that box as it stands.
The charging States are simpler than you think. Bulk Is limited by your
thermal issues, then the timer engages when the volt limit is reached. Once
the timer is set you have only the dialed in time effecting how long it will
run until it shuts off. There is no state 3. The blink rate of the Blue led
speeds up as the time counts down.
You can either up the timer setting or just reset the charger and have
it time out again.
My timer is set to 30 minutes, plenty long with equalized Yts. But not long
enough if I have let the EV sit for a few days. I just cycle the power, and
time it another 30 minutes.
Since you did not get the amps to taper below 6 amps it needs another cycle
or you need to up your timer length.
This varience is battery pack governed, it changes with the DOD and the
storage time the pack has set.
Cycle the power and let it set again. Having the timer adj set to 80 minutes
and the time out taking only 38 minutes... is problematic. I have seen this
happen when the back side of the controller PCB gets some contamination on
it. The digital lines from the Digi pot(the timer adjust switch) get crossed
and the the timer latch gets the wrong input. Since this is a Cmos input....
it doesn't take much.
It's irrritating to get a charger returned, and a tooth brush and hot soapy
water and a blow dry is all it takes to sovle the issues.
We may start putting all the controls behind a clear plastic plate
instead of the Blue block off plate that is there now. But contamination and
ease of adjustments are two conflicting features.
Your thoughts ????
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
> Hi,
>
> Okay, I watched and timed a complete charging cycle this evening, as my
> PFC-30 charger still seems to be shutting off too soon. I was charging
> from a 240-Volt, 30-Amp outlet. My pack was pretty low as I drove about
> 14 miles (I know, I know, very lame range). Here's what I noticed:
>
> 4:30pm Start charging - Constant Current
> (never really gets above ~29 output amps due to thermal limit)
> 5:45pm Switches to Constant Voltage, timer phase 1
> (blue LED blinking slow, ~29 Amps still going into pack)
> 6:08pm Constant Voltage, timer phase 2
> (blue LED blinking faster, ~14 Amps still going into pack)
> 6:17pm Constant Voltage, timer phase 3
> (blue LED blinking fastest, ~6 Amps still going into pack)
> 6:23pm ~6 Amps still going into the pack, and the timer times-out
> (blue LED lit solid, charger shuts off).
>
> First of all, I thought that the constant voltage "finishing" stage is
> usually supposed to take longer than the bulk charging, to ensure that
> the battery current tapers off correctly. This bulk charge took 1 hour
> 15 minutes while the constant voltage finish charge took only 38
> minutes... sounds way to short to me. As there is a likely chance that
> my batteries are sulfated(?), would that result in the really quick
> current tapering that I'm seeing?
>
> Also, _unlike_ before, I actually have set my PFC-30's timer setting to
> a longer time interval. The rotary switch is set to "8", which is
> supposed to make the timer last 80 minutes (if I'm reading the manual
> correctly)?... much longer than the 38 it did today. Because it timed
> out so soon, my battery current never tapered below about 6 amps, which
> I assume to be bad since they should be charged until the current drops
> off to like two amps.
>
> Thanks again for everyone's great advice,
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
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