EV Digest 4418
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) reverse with an advanced timed motor
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Another e-meter question...Lee?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Determination of actual battery pack capacity
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) DC Controller failures. A list?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Amp Head, Heads Up
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: reverse with an advanced timed motor
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC Controller failures. A list?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Pressing armature shafts
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Siamese motor update
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Power of DC, Another One!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Power of DC - Friday Night
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?an' other stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Power of DC - Friday Night
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Just checking on this , running an stock advanced motor / like a net gain ,
or adc in reverse to give the car a reverse is ok at low speed ?
Steve Clunn
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Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger, I'm passing along what I've been told by people
> dealing with these.
... and I'm passing along what the people who *make* them say.
If the shunt manufacturer tells us that their shunt will exhibit a
permanent change if heated beyond 145C, why would you argue that to be
false? Given that the shunt is spec'd for +/-0.25% accuracy, I would
expect the permanent shift to be sufficiently large to guarantee that
the shunt goes out of spec, but even if it pushed the shunt to +/-0.5%
or +/-1% we wouldn't notice in our EVs despite the fact that that shunt
would now be of questionable value for precise measurements.
> Permanent damage relevant for
> calibration quality (0.1% off) is unacceptable, but
> for measurement is OK.
The real unanswered question is how large the permanent shift in
resistance is. If it is 0.1%, then no problem; if it is 1%, probably
still not a problem for us but anacceptable even for precise
measurements.
> If you want to dig to pure
> physics, unfortunately what you have quoted becomes
> incorrect either: *everything without exception*
> around us changes property with temperature.
I see why what I quoted becomes incorrect; it doesn't claim that no
other materials have a temperature coefficient or that they may exhibit
a permanent (if slight) change in properties after heating (or some
other stress) beyond some point.
Indeed, manganin is used for this type of application specifically
because it exhibits unusually little change in resistance with
temperature compared to other materials.
> If what they wrote and you quoted is true,
> then as soon as I take resistive element in my hand
> which is around 36'C, it is already permanently
> damaged. Ridiculous, isn't it?
Not at all ridiculous; indeed, this is exactly what they say is the case
for reference standards. The shunt is actually immersed in a
temperature controlled bath to hold it at a precise temperature below
30C for best accuracy (despite the fact that manganin already exhibits
better temperature stability than most other materials).
It just illustrates the extreme care and lengths one must go to when
absolute accuracy is required. Fortunately, this is not the case in our
applications! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote :
"imagine sitting waitng for green..."
That is really food for thought. Talking about manual transmissions of
course :
I think sitting at the light in an EV in gear is no different that
sitting in a car with an ICE engine in gear with the clutch held in. I
had an truck that I was doing that in cause the light was about to
change and the linkage broke, I was very lucky that no-one was in the
crosswalk. For wear issues on the throwout bearing and for safety, I
always put my manual cars in neutral and let out the clutch at stop lights.
Should we EV'rs get in that habit? Clutched or clutchless, at a stop,
pull it out of gear!. With no rolling or idle RPM, wouldn't it be simple
to put back in gear before taking foot from "brake" to "go".?
For the record, I was very worried about not having a clutch on my first
conversion but also worried about the heavy flywheel, So in my yet to be
completed EV, I fitted a tilton 3 plate 5.5" clutch. total weight 6 lbs
total product of inertia 41 lbft. The stock was 23lb and over 400lbft
product of inertia. Used on ebay for < $300 , Quartermaster and tilton
share standard pattern. I figure with it being good for 800lbft and the
occasional use, it should last. The disks are 161.00 to replace new from
tilton, not to bad. In hindsight and as advice for future conversions,
i would consider the 2 plate 7" in the future. It is easier to find, and
most importantly, shorter and will fit conversions easier.
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The problem with all that inertia, is waiting for it to slow down to
complete the shift, not waitng to accelerate, Funny I always heard 4 lbs
not 3 :-)
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Imagine sitting waiting for green. Usually your bumper is 3-4 feet
> away from the car in front of you. Should your controller fail full
> on at this time, calculate your reaction time to pull that hand
> brake.
>
> If you lurch with squeaking tires toward pedestrian/child,
> even few feet, you're in serious trouble even if you don't
> quite reach them.
>
> For that kind of reaction you should constantly keep your hand
> on the parking brake ready and *expect* to pull at any second.
> No one normally drives that way.
Let's be realistic here.
A DC motor controller can fail "full on"; but it is not going to happen
when the car is sitting still with your foot off the throttle. Here are
the circumstances where the controller is most likely to fail "on":
1. You "floor it" from a dead stop. Controller tries to go into
current limit, but it fails. Typically one transistor shorts
first; when the rest turn off, this one is now carrying *all*
the current. It quickly superheats, and explodes. But this can
short out adjacent transistors. You get a relatively rapid chain
reaction of failures, as the rest of the transistors short.
During this time, the motor is stuck fully on, and producing
large amounts of torque.
2. You are charging your EV, and have it wired so the controller
is always "on". The battery voltage on charge goes over the
controller's absolute maximum voltage, and a transistor fails
shorted. Same chain reaction scenario as above; if car was left
in gear, it leaps forward.
3. Controller has inadequate cooling, and is seriously overheated.
You step on the throttle, producing still more heat in controller.
A transistor fails from overtemperature, and again the chain
reaction occurs.
In each case, people create the problem with undersized undercooled
controllers, overly large motors, circuits that overstress the parts,
and when there are no safety devices or wiring to deal with such
failures if they occur.
For example
- Don't use a Curtis 1221 controller with a 9" motor. It's too much
motor for the size of the controller.
- Don't run your controller at its maximum rated voltage or current;
back it down so you have some safety margin. Don't run a "96-144v"
controller with a 144v pack, and don't run the current limit wide
open.
- Make sure the controller has plenty of cooling; if it is
uncomfortably hot to touch, it is too hot!
- Be sure to include a DC-rated fast-blow fuse with a current rating
*below* the controllers current rating. If the controller shorts,
the current into a stalled motor will be several times larger, and
the fuse will blow almost instantly. But the fuse won't blow in
normal use because the average battery current is always less than
the controller's current limit if it is working.
- Include contactors adequate to safely break the worst-case voltage
and current that could occur if the controller fails. Wire them so
they *will* turn off in the event of a failure. For instance,
Curtis recommends wiring the main contactor thru the switch on the
potbox, so letting up on the throttle drops the contactor. If the
car does "run away", your natural reaction to release the throttle
will turn it off -- no need to depend on the driver to remember to
pull the handbrake, or press the clutch and shift into neutral, etc.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Now that I have a few hundred miles on the New Beetle EV, I would like to
determine its' capacity so I can program the EMeter. These are Deka 8G34R
Gel Cells with a C/20 rate of 60Ah. One way to determine the actual capacity
is to:
1) Charge the batteries full
2) Wait for 12-24 hours, measure pack voltage
3) Drive for a distance (20miles)
4) Wait for 12-24 hours, measure pack voltage
5) Correct for temperature and compare to manufacturer's specs for battery
capacity
Comments? Suggestions?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
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At 6:15 PM -0700 on 6/6/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Imagine sitting waiting for green, Usually your bumper is 3-4 feet
away from the car in front of you. Sould your controller fail full on
at this time, calculate your reaction time to pull that hand brake.
Accident statistics clearly show that most people can't hit a brake
or clutch pedal in that time-frame, either. They usually just stomp
down on whatever's under their foot be it gas, brake or clutch.
Happens all the time. And I don't have to reach for the handbrake. I
could also reach for the breaker on the dash. Factor in the fact that
I'm already stepping on the brake (since I'm stopped at a light)
which will slow down the acceleration considerably. Not stop it, of
course, but slow it.
If you lurch with squeaking tires toward pedestrian/child,
even few feet, you're in serious trouble even if you don't
quite reach them.
No, If I don't hit them there is no actual trouble. Moma can howl all
she wants but if the failsafes work, her kid is fine and that's that.
FOr that kind of reaction you should conatantly keep your hand
on the parking brake ready and *expect* to pool at any second.
No one normally drives that way.
See above.
Not to say your solution is bad - it is better than most people have.
But it has its serious limitations as well.
Everything has good sides and bad sides. You make your choices and
I'll make mine.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A DC motor controller can fail "full on"; but it is not going to happen
when the car is sitting still with your foot off the throttle.
Well, I've had it happen to me. Does that count?
>>>>> Ka-Bang <<<<
I was in the King Soupers parking lot. I put the car in neutral,
pushed in the clutch, and turned the key to "start". After the pre-charge,
the main contactor pulled in, there was a loud "bang" and the whole car
shuddered (almost "hopped" actually.) The next sound was the motor whining
down in RPM like a jet engine.
If I had not disengaged the clutch or put the car in neutral, the
Wabbit would have launched into the car in front of me, or run over the
lady with the shopping cart behind me.
Something in the logic failed on my Auburn controller. The FETs
went full on. They opened up only after the current finally blew them apart.
This could not happen with an AC drive. The drive must be fully
intelligent to spin the motor. Yes, it could go "bang". No, it would not
spin the motor.
>>>> Phantom steamroller <<<
I approached a traffic light in Downtown Denver. I let my foot off
the throttle and applied the brake. The car "kind of" slowed down, but not
like it should have. As the distance narrowed to the car in front of me, I
increased the force on the brake pedal, but this only slowed the car
slightly. I then put both feet on the brake pedal and pushed as hard as I
could. The car slowed more, but would not stop and continued to move
towards the car in front of me at about 10 MPH. It was like there was a
steam roller pushing my car from behind. I then moved my left foot off the
brake and pushed in the clutch, barely in time to keep from hitting the car
in front of me.
If I had not pushed in the clutch, we would have both driven into
the path of the traffic zipping by in front of us at about 45 MPH (Speer Blvd.)
A nut had come loose and jammed the pot-box arm so it would not
completely return to zero.
This could happen with an AC drive, but they don't have near the
torque of a series-wound DC motor, so the brakes would have stopped the car.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is a really good idea to leave the clutch in a DC conversion.
It is not much of an issue when you remove the clutch in an AC
conversion.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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--- Begin Message ---
While discussing the merits of clutched designs, Lee Hart brings up
some good points about controller failures. I'm wondering if it would
be good to compile a list of failures. See my suggestion at the end
of this post...
A DC motor controller can fail "full on"; but it is not going to happen
when the car is sitting still with your foot off the throttle. Here are
the circumstances where the controller is most likely to fail "on":
1. You "floor it" from a dead stop. Controller tries to go into
current limit, but it fails.
I would note here that the old B series of Curtis controllers tend to
go into full current limit at every start. That's why they lurch so
much and I suspect it stresses them pretty hard. The current
production models with the C on the end have much smoother starts.
Typically one transistor shorts
first; when the rest turn off, this one is now carrying *all*
the current. It quickly superheats, and explodes. But this can
short out adjacent transistors. You get a relatively rapid chain
reaction of failures, as the rest of the transistors short.
During this time, the motor is stuck fully on, and producing
large amounts of torque.
I've had this happen to me two times, and in my cases the torque
produced was relatively small. I assume this is since each transistor
can only carry so much current before it fails. In my cases they
sounded like popcorn going off. On the Curtis 1221b (in a 3500 lb
truck with a 9" back in 1991) it stopped blowing itself up and
actually drove home at low power. On a early prototype of my own that
blew the car did not accelerate much (I was moving slowly in second
gear in a 4500 lb truck) and the semiconductor fuse in the battery
circuit blew before all the transistors cleared.
2. You are charging your EV, and have it wired so the controller
is always "on". The battery voltage on charge goes over the
controller's absolute maximum voltage, and a transistor fails
shorted. Same chain reaction scenario as above; if car was left
in gear, it leaps forward.
I've heard of a few of these situations. Always in
controllers/systems that do not verify a successful precharge before
allowing the main contactor to turn on. In one case the car did lurch
forward when the key was turned on, in the others it was in neutral
and the motor spun up uncontrolled when the key was turned on.
3. Controller has inadequate cooling, and is seriously overheated.
You step on the throttle, producing still more heat in controller.
A transistor fails from overtemperature, and again the chain
reaction occurs.
I've heard of this happening while driving where the operator only
noticed it was stuck on when he tried to let off the pedal. He turned
the key off and coasted to a stop safely.
Another common case is that the controller is overheated causing the
diodes to float in their solder but still works, then it is parked
and they cool. As it cools the diode cracks and shorts out. The car
is then turned back on. The contactor engages ok and upon the first
press of the pedal the fets blow since they are driving into shorted
diode(s). I believe this is what happened to one of Bruce P's Curtis
controllers.
In each case, people create the problem with undersized undercooled
controllers, overly large motors, circuits that overstress the parts,
and when there are no safety devices or wiring to deal with such
failures if they occur.
I agree. But in addition the controller was not pretecting itself
from such failures well enough.
I don't know of any public record of on road EV controller failures,
though I know there have been many. I for one would be very
interested to hear of peoples stories of failed controllers and
collect the information into a file where we all could see it.
What do you all think? Good idea?
On first pass this is data that I think would be useful to collect:
Name of person that is happened to. (to avoid duplicate reports, kept
confidential on request)
Approximate date of failure.
Brand and model of controller.
How many miles/months has the controller been in the car.
Rebuild history of the controller.
Nominal system voltage.
Cooling system on controller.
Home city/state of car (for general temperature effects)
Weight of car.
When did the failure occur (Key on, after charge, first throttle
press, while driving etc.)
What happened right before it failed and on the last drive before the
failure. (charge, hot driving, cool driving)
Did the car run away uncontrolled, how was it stopped?
Was there a fire or evidence of fire? How was it put out?
Any other thoughts that you think may be relevant to the failure.
If you think this is a good idea, let us hear your story! Or if you
prefer send reports directly to the address below and then I will
collect them all on one web page.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jun 2005 at 13:02, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I have permission in writing from The Discovery Channel to
> reproduce the show for educational purposes.
Hi Roderick. This sounds pretty good!
I don't own a television set and I don't have cable, so Alan was kind enough
to supply me with a copy for my own educational purposes several months ago.
Otherwise, I'd never have seen it. I'm happy to pass along his favor to
others, but if you prefer, I'll be glad let you do the copying and
distribution. Just let me know what you'd like me to do here.
Best,
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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send me a private message, please use "evdl at drmm period net."
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When the president does it, that means it is not illegal.
-- Richard Nixon
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Off beat idea: What about going clutchless, but having a spring on the
clutch pedal for feel, and a kill switch to shutoff the current to the
motor? You could hit the clutch pedal, shift, release, and go. At a light,
you could sit there with the clutch pedal in, which is what I do at the
light. Light changes, release the clutch and go. Just an idea.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
At 6:15 PM -0700 on 6/6/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Imagine sitting waiting for green, Usually your bumper is 3-4 feet
away from the car in front of you. Sould your controller fail full on
at this time, calculate your reaction time to pull that hand brake.
Accident statistics clearly show that most people can't hit a brake or
clutch pedal in that time-frame, either. They usually just stomp down on
whatever's under their foot be it gas, brake or clutch. Happens all the
time. And I don't have to reach for the handbrake. I could also reach for
the breaker on the dash. Factor in the fact that I'm already stepping on
the brake (since I'm stopped at a light) which will slow down the
acceleration considerably. Not stop it, of course, but slow it.
If you lurch with squeaking tires toward pedestrian/child,
even few feet, you're in serious trouble even if you don't
quite reach them.
No, If I don't hit them there is no actual trouble. Moma can howl all she
wants but if the failsafes work, her kid is fine and that's that.
FOr that kind of reaction you should conatantly keep your hand
on the parking brake ready and *expect* to pool at any second.
No one normally drives that way.
See above.
Not to say your solution is bad - it is better than most people have.
But it has its serious limitations as well.
Everything has good sides and bad sides. You make your choices and I'll
make mine.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes low speed and low amps.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:32 AM
Subject: reverse with an advanced timed motor
> Just checking on this , running an stock advanced motor / like a net gain
,
> or adc in reverse to give the car a reverse is ok at low speed ?
> Steve Clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jun 2005 at 20:34, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Should we EV'rs get in that habit? Clutched or clutchless, at a stop, pull
> it out of gear!
I know some here disagree - they don't like the clack-clack noise - but I
think a DC ev should have at least one contactor that opens when the brake
is depressed and/or the accelerator is released. If just one of these, the
latter is preferable.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I don't know of any public record of on road EV controller failures,
> though I know there have been many. I for one would be very
> interested to hear of peoples stories of failed controllers and
> collect the information into a file where we all could see it.
I had a couple of problems with my Curtis 1221B-7401, but perhaps not
worthy of a full disaster report-
120V system, light (<1000kG car), large series motor and gearbox used.
No cooling on controller.
1) intermittant failure of the controller while driving, usually after
5 miles or so it would stop or greatly lose power. When investigated,
there was some water inside the case, this (I guess) had corroded the
"plug" trimpot, and it was that causing the incorrect operation.
2) a few months after this was fixed, the controller went "bang" at
the top of a long hill and stopped. After dismantling it, I found
that a small portion of the main battery + track had vanished -
apparently a piece of solder or other metal loose inside the case must
have bridged two capacitor terminals. This was possibly due to the
first repair!
The controller had stopped because the vaporised copper had settled on
the logic board and disrupted its operation. After cleaning it, the
controller worked again and continues to do so 4 years later.
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
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--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If the 13" motor as it is weighs 350 lbs, about how much would you
guess it would weigh if it had an aluminum housing?
The housing alone weighs around 80 pounds I'd guess, I'll have to
weigh Father Times housing today.
> http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?&PRID=1520510
Thanks for the link lets me get my eyeballs on more EV style motors.
Same basic motors I rebuild. Most of the larger ones are wound with
smaller wire and with more turns than you'd see in a standard
forklift motor.
> Any guess as to how much Netgains 15" motor weighs?
Somewhere around 450 I'd guess. GE builds a Hyster that weighes 450
pounds. I've only built 3 of them, because they don't fail very
often.
> What real world application are these 13" and 15" motors currently
found in?
They drive not only the forklift they are in, but also a 5000 to 7000
payload depending more on the weight of the lift itself than the
motor. Heavier forklift, more (safe) lift capacity.
Also I heard Rich talking about torching that 9" GE from gone postal
(not sure who's motor it is) on his dyno. PLEASE don't do that. I
could easily repair it to its former glory (plus added features), for
a fraction of the cost it would to replace it with a new motor (any
EV'er want a 9" custom GE for a few hundred dollars??)(That's what I
thought hehe). This is regardless of whether it continues to run in
the GP or not. Also I'd like to know what would it take to get GP
back up, really? Just asking, as I'd like to see what she could
(really) do. It seems a shame to not have that machine up and
running where the only thing it's breaking is the records. Let me
know if I can help or is it a dead horse??
Look for my report on John Waylands surprise inspection to the shop!
Hey to all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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Well look what the cat drug in. John Wayland arrived yesterday with
a really nice mount system for the Siamese 8 motor. I'd sent the
frame of the motor over for him to measure, set, and weld, the mount
plates for the two housing unit. The two mounts I'd sent were just
cheesy old pump motor brackets I had lying around the shop. Well (in
stunning John Wayland fashion) he and I believe Tim (I hope I got
that right) spent the weekend crafting a beautiful set of mounting
brackets. These are not your usual straight or 90 degree brackets.
No� these have this little sweeping arc to them that conform to the
housing like a nurturing mother holding her new pair of twins, lol.
Anyways they are awesome! Job well done you two. Anyways (after his
camera died) he taught me how to charge camera batteries from your
car battery in one minute (nice to know if I'm ever in a Mc giver
movie). Well after the basic what's left to be done pow-wow, he
gently brought up the ETA of the finished Siamese 8 project. It went
something like this.
JIM: but John, you-you-you said finish the beast first?
JOHN: I did, but the beast is now finished, where's the 8's HUH!!!
JIM: but-but I got 25 customer motors in the shop right now. And Matt
has the flu.
John: Plasma Boy must race now!!! DO YOU KNOW ITS JUNE!!!
John: And you better put all grade 8 hardware it that baby for me to.
JOHN You know I've got EV'er coming over Sunday?? RIGHT??
JOHN Well your invited, bring the finished Siamese when you come�
You get the jist.
Anyway by the time John rolled out it was passed 2:00 and I knew I
wouldn't sleep (John has monitored alarms at my house) if I didn't
address some Siamese issues.
So John if your listening I finished up the mounts, bolted the D.E.
bearing plates together, and started boring the middle bearing
section. So all is going wel��.NOOOOOO!
The shaft is so long it won't fit into my PRESS, think Jim think�
Stay tuned to see if Jim can run faster than the Blue Meanie� LOL!
Anyway I will be at John's Sunday with what looks like a mostly
finished Siamese 8 to show for all those that attend. I look forward
to seeing everyone there!
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Maybe if I moved� OH hey there John, (didn't see you there) getting
right back on those 8's LMAO. Love ya man�
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob;;
GEES! Maybe if ya give me half the track head start<g>! What with your
White Zonbie threatening Rabbit, arent ya damn close to the 100 mph club??
But it's fun to see ya again. Should be there Fri nitre, old rusty Brown
Ford Van, tow vehicle.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Power of DC, Another One!
> Great !
>
> We can have a VW race.
>
> See you there.
>
> Robert Salem
> 81 VW pickup,240 vots, Z2K, 11" Kostov
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Bob Rice
>
>
> >
> > Hi All;
> >
> > OK ! Snap decision. I'll tow the Rabbit, which I have dubbed " Led
Sled"
> > down for the races, Leave CT Fri AM, trusty Rusty Ford Van, origional
Slow
> > Boxy Thing, Rabbit in tow. Sleeping stuff aboard, Arrive Fri Nite. at
the
> > track. Yes you can camp out there, we have before.
> >
> > Watching the Rabbit run should be exciting as watching grass grow or
> > paint dry. But whatthehell, EV's are fun. It aint a racing thing, but
with a
> > stronger clutch, no time to change it NOW!Weeded out a few tired
batteries,
> > should help beat Acela times?Off the line, anyhow?
> >
> > Seeya There!
> >
>
>
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Barring any Wayland type events, I'll be there Friday night also. Do you have
reservations? Where's everybody staying?
I game for a get together, haven't heard about one yet though.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
>
> Hi Chip,
>
> Sounds like this year's event is going to be much larger than last years!
>
> Matt, Lowell and I are going to be loading up the bikes & Miramar's Porsche
> and heading up on Thursday afternoon. We have a lot of testing to do this
> week, (and Lowell has a new Z2K to wire up in the Porsche...) but we will be
> driving up from Florida mid-afternoon on Thursday and hope to be getting in
> mid to late Friday afternoon.
>
> Are there any plans for pre-race get together Friday night anywhere?
>
> We will be bringing a couple of new electric mini-bikes and parts for the
> swap meet.
>
> See ya up there! (And thanks for doing an amazing job at getting this
> race/event together! You're awesome!)
>
> --
> Shawn M. Waggoner
> Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
> http://www.floridaeaa.org
> Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chip Gribben
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
>
> We'd love to have some West Coast people race at the PDC this year or come
> out to visit.
>
> I know that some people are spontaneous so if you leave soon you can still
> get here in time.
>
> Dennis, we'd really like to have another dragster out for the race. It would
> be great for Discovery to get two dragsters going head to head.
> I've heard you have a prior race scheduled but its something to consider.
> The invite is always there.
>
> The Brigham Young University Team plans to leave Tuesday from Utah.
> We're hoping their final testing with their EV-1 goes smoothly on Monday.
>
> See ya,
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Power of DC
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Claudio an' Others;
I'll throw my two Watts worth here. I went with the clutch in my Rabbit,
so I could shift with ease, as I find shifting as a better way to get more
miles per amps. I tell folks at show and tells, all the time that I can
leave it in hy gear and drive around but don't. I say would you leave your
ten speed bike in hy gear all the time, you COULD, but it sure is easier to
pedal with gear use. I try to give tha batteries a break, people can get
this anology. I'm USED to clutch an' gears, since I learned at 10 or so how
to drive. If ya know me, I'm a big guy ,could reach all the car pedals in
the 50 Ford -3- in -the -tree , Dad had in my deformative years.
Back to the point I usually USE the clutch with my starts out of force
of habit, and TRY to leave the car in neutral when leaving the flight deck.
The other day at the lumberyard I was loading two, 24 foot 2 by 8's on the
roof of the Rabbit. Yes it IS a Beast of burden! As I went for the second a
guy sez" You're car is Rolling! Oh SHIT! it was creeping away! I thought it
was just rolling on the uneven ground? No it was ON, parking brake ON, in
first gear, I had LEFT it in gear, dammit! @#$%^ Rapter powered up gently on
it's own! Good thing it didn't go FULL on, Turned the key off, line switch
opened, end of incident. Tied the lumber down, keyed in , drove over to the
checkout caboose. Old New Haven RR caboose used as a office, checkout
place, classy! Paid up, Christ! almost 50 bux, lumber aint cheap!No other
incidents. I remember to shut it OFF when I park, now. Oh yeah, the lumber
is for a garage I'm building to house 3 vehicles mostly EV's so it's OK. You
don't wanna leave my Preus OUTSIDE anyhow.
Bottom line, we here are doing conversions of existing cars anyhow, cars
come with a nice tranny already in place. So ya may as well use it.A
STANDARD tranny, automatics are a bit lossy to do, don't bother. Although I
may evoke an argument here?But for a purpose built EV the elegent GM EV-1,
the Rav 4 , honda's EV Plus, well they were DESIGNED as an EV right off the
bat. As Victer sez; AC stuff doesn't fail in ON mode, so you don't really
need a clutch as a failure mode safety thing. Us DC guyz need that
protection.
On that theme somebody asked about controller failures, another thread,
or fine wire? My DCP's have failed in most unspactular modes. Go out to the
car and key "On" ...nothin'! No reassuring fan whir or line switch "Click"
Shipped it off to DCP and they fixed the charging capaciter. They DON'T like
water, got the @#$% controller WET. Game's over! Dried it out with a hair
dryer as the DCP Folks suggested. Later put a Batsonian style "Floor" under
the controller to keep it from road splash. Downside, ya can't easily see
the motor for show and tell.
OT, a bit, FINALLY weeded out my bum batteries! What a differance! Cruise
down the turnpike at 200 amps 65-70 mph at 115 volts, 120 volt system, Very
little voltage drop as I have been finatically finding ANYTHING that gets
hot or warm in my connections. Hop out of the car at work feel around for
hot stuff in the wiring, smoking or hot batteries after a 40 min hy speed
turnpike run.A volt meter will tell ya WHICH batteries are lying down on the
job. So go after ANY voltage drop, ya will be amazed at the performance
differance!
OK ,gotta go out and get stuff ready for Power of DC, seeya there!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
>
> Victor Tikhonov writes:
> > Imagine sitting waiting for green, Usually your bumper is 3-4 feet
> > away from the car in front of you. Sould your controller fail full on
> > at this time, calculate your reaction time to pull that hand brake.
> >
> > If you lurch with squeaking tires toward pedestrian/child,
> > even few feet, you're in serious trouble even if you don't
> > quite reach them.
> >
> > FOr that kind of reaction you should conatantly keep your hand
> > on the parking brake ready and *expect* to pool at any second.
> > No one normally drives that way.
>
> Will the reaction time for an uncommanded, unexpected lurch really be
appreciably faster with a clutch?
>
> Or are you suggesting that, in an EV with a clutch, one should sit at the
traffic lights with the clutch pedal depressed?
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: Power of DC - Friday Night
> Barring any Wayland type events, I'll be there Friday night also. Do you
have reservations? Where's everybody staying?
>
> I game for a get together, haven't heard about one yet though.
> -- Hi Tim;
Seeya friday nite. Will camp out in my Van that nite. May look for a
place SAT nite, sleep inside, running water etc, head back Sun DAY
driving.Should be fun!
Seeya
Bob
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
> > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:51 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
> >
> > Hi Chip,
> >
> > Sounds like this year's event is going to be much larger than last
years!
> >
> > Matt, Lowell and I are going to be loading up the bikes & Miramar's
Porsche
> > and heading up on Thursday afternoon. We have a lot of testing to do
this
> > week, (and Lowell has a new Z2K to wire up in the Porsche...) but we
will be
> > driving up from Florida mid-afternoon on Thursday and hope to be getting
in
> > mid to late Friday afternoon.
> >
> > Are there any plans for pre-race get together Friday night anywhere?
> >
> > We will be bringing a couple of new electric mini-bikes and parts for
the
> > swap meet.
> >
> > See ya up there! (And thanks for doing an amazing job at getting this
> > race/event together! You're awesome!)
> >
> > --
> > Shawn M. Waggoner
> > Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
> > http://www.floridaeaa.org
> > Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Chip Gribben
> > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:58 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
> >
> > We'd love to have some West Coast people race at the PDC this year or
come
> > out to visit.
> >
> > I know that some people are spontaneous so if you leave soon you can
still
> > get here in time.
> >
> > Dennis, we'd really like to have another dragster out for the race. It
would
> > be great for Discovery to get two dragsters going head to head.
> > I've heard you have a prior race scheduled but its something to
consider.
> > The invite is always there.
> >
> > The Brigham Young University Team plans to leave Tuesday from Utah.
> > We're hoping their final testing with their EV-1 goes smoothly on
Monday.
> >
> > See ya,
> >
> > Chip Gribben
> > NEDRA Power of DC
> > http://www.powerofdc.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I am just going to say that I personally would never convert one without a
clutch, the biggest reason being safety concerns.
And... IMHO I see doing a conversion without a clutch as being just plain
lame.
I'm sure you weren't thinking of Johns car when you wrote this :-) . I sit
right on the middle of the fence on this one . Its not hard now days to have
more power that what most stock clutches can take . Is anyone using a clutch
and no transmission? As Lee has pointed out before , golf carts , NEV's ,
don't have clutches, . As for the safety thing , I would first hit the
emergency disconnect before pushing the clutch and blowing my motor. Having
a clutch and a disconnect and a problem = panic use clutch , blow motor ,
then the disconnect ,,, No clutch and problem = hit the disconnect first (
all you got ) , and motor parts stay in the car.
Steve clunn
Well Steve , that may be true but , I enjoy using my clutch , it makes
shifting easy , and most people are use to a clutch. You only do it once ,
and then you have to live with it .As Roy has said , its just add one more
safety stage
Steve clunn
True but what if you short on money , you got some used parts and want to do
something , $800 is more than you can spend. ( the old car this stuff is
going into was free) .
Steve Clunn
yep I'm right on the fence , I could go either way . In the old days when my
Curtis controller would blow , I never used the clutch , ( I remember
thinking , now this is some pick up ) , just turned the key off .
Flame shield is in place and no, it is unlikely I will be responding to
this thread much.
.
no flames from me , I have both ,
steve clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
Roy LeMeur
--- End Message ---
