EV digest 4420

Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:25:36 -0700 

                            EV Digest 4420

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Power of DC Friday Night Dinner
        by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: AC motor operation... does anybody know how these work?
        by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Power of DC - Friday Night
        by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: AC motor operation... does anybody know how these work?
        by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: 15 inch motor?
        by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
        by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) VW bug battery placement.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: VW bug battery placement.
        by William Judy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Louvering rollers
        by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: AC motor operation... does anybody know how these work?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Power of DC - Friday Night
        by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) TdS Report #68: Tour de Sol News Media Web Page
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 19) TdS Report #69: Answer to the Pop Quiz
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 20) Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
        by jimevdl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Fwd: Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
        by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) RE: Power of DC - Friday Night
        by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)
        by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Motors from Forklift.
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: EV digest 4419
        by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: WARNING(virus check bypassed): Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?
        by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Has it aired yet?  Lawrence Rhodes...........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?



I was the one who consulted and acted as one of the
hosts for that episode. they put in a 600 amp
contoller but used the same old 8v volt golf cart
batts with tab terminals for 72 volts. it was pretty
anemic at best. I'm working with the new owner who
uses it as a pit car for his daughters dragster. I
think I've got him convinced to switch that to
electric as well.


                      Gadget
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.htelectricmotors.com/news091704.htm I
stumbled upon this while surfing. 
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519 



visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Chip, thanks for all of your efforts!!

Do you need any help, Friday P.M. or Saturday A.M.?

-- 
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it 
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart

Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chip Gribben
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:08 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Power of DC Friday Night Dinner
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> That's really great that you all will be coming up together and getting the
> Miramar Porsche on the road.
>
> Friday night sounds like a good idea for everyone to get together.
>
> There are plenty of places to eat in Hagerstown.
>
> I haven't brought up the idea with my wife yet since she doesn't think I can
> get all the race stuff ready by Saturday and if I mention going out on
> Friday night at this point she'll probably kill me.
>
> She is right, as usual, since there is a ton of details left to attend to so
> if I don't see yall Friday evening have a great time.
>
> My cell is 240-687-1678
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Power of DC
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Shawn Waggoner
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
>
> Hi Chip,
>
> Sounds like this year's event is going to be much larger than last years!
>
> Matt, Lowell and I are going to be loading up the bikes & Miramar's Porsche
> and heading up on Thursday afternoon. We have a lot of testing to do this
> week, (and Lowell has a new Z2K to wire up in the Porsche...) but we will be
> driving up from Florida mid-afternoon on Thursday and hope to be getting in
> mid to late Friday afternoon.
>
> Are there any plans for pre-race get together Friday night anywhere?
>
> We will be bringing a couple of new electric mini-bikes and parts for the
> swap meet.
>
> See ya up there! (And thanks for doing an amazing job at getting this
> race/event together! You're awesome!)
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
It's the same schematic as ta AC drive.
Just that you lag the rotor speed  instead of leading it.

It's just that simple.

Rich Rudman
done BLDC ac Drives, That will regen you right off a minibike frame.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: AC motor operation... does anybody know how these work?


> I am trying to figure out how AC motor regenerating is
> accomplished on an ev. Does anybody know?... I can't
> believe no one here has looked into this!
> 
> I'd love to see a simple schematic of an AC controller
> with regen braking so I can get the idea into my brain
> and let the creative juices work on it.  
> 
> My background has been lots of digital and transistor
> theory in 2yrs of tech college. We did do AC theory
> but it was limited to power supplies ad basic stuff.
> Tom
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I hope someone brings a camera and gets some pics of everything for
those on the list who can't make it this time.

http://www.photobucket.com/ or http://www.spymac.com/user.php?action=register

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Tom Watson wrote:

> I'd love to see a simple schematic of an AC controller
> with regen braking so I can get the idea into my brain
> and let the creative juices work on it.

There are some various bits of info on this page..

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Christopher Robison wrote:

> Can you folks tell me where you've heard about a 15" motor from Netgain?

I just saw a passing reference to it.  Maybe it was just an idea?

If you find any info on it, I'd like to know more about it.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
That episode aired last year, we shot it last october,
and I don't know if it will air again.

                             Gadget
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has it aired yet?  Lawrence Rhodes...........
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage does a golfcart?
> 
> 
> >I was the one who consulted and acted as one of the
> > hosts for that episode. they put in a 600 amp
> > contoller but used the same old 8v volt golf cart
> > batts with tab terminals for 72 volts. it was
> pretty
> > anemic at best. I'm working with the new owner who
> > uses it as a pit car for his daughters dragster. I
> > think I've got him convinced to switch that to
> > electric as well.
> > 
> > 
> >                       Gadget
> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> http://www.htelectricmotors.com/news091704.htm I
> >> stumbled upon this while 
> >> surfing.
> >> Lawrence Rhodes
> >> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> >> Reedmaker
> >> Book 4/5 doubler
> >> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> 415-821-3519 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> 
> 

visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I have seen some VW bugs with 6 golfcart batteries under the hood. I have seen some with 6 batteries in the motor bay. Nobody shows the installation under the back seat. I remember getting some 225 marines under the back seat but what about golfcart batteries like the T 105. I'm trying to make a bug that is stock looking as possible at 72volts. How many can you get under the back seat? Thanks.......... 
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I was able to stuff 16 T-875's in a bug without impacting the seating or stock 
look at all. I
installed 6 under the hood, 4 in the engine area and 6 behind the back seat.  
Under the back seat
was perfect for the aux battery (Original location) and DC/DC converter, I 
couldn't fit any
T-875's under there without  modification to the frame of the car and I wanted 
to keep the back
seat intact.

Will

--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have seen some VW bugs with 6 golfcart batteries under the hood.  I have 
> seen some with 6 batteries in the motor bay.  Nobody shows the installation 
> under the back seat.  I remember getting some 225 marines under the back 
> seat but what about golfcart batteries like the T 105.  I'm trying to make a 
> bug that is stock looking as possible at 72volts.  How many can you get 
> under the back seat?  Thanks..........
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519 
> 
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

Hi Victor


RTFM ("F" stands for "fine" :-) )

Siadis WILL NOT work if you boot from floppy.
You use floppy to copy siadis files to a directory.
Boot to Windows, exit to DOS prompt and try.

This does not guarantee it to work as windows
may or may not release the com port, depends on
how it is configured. Boot to DOS straight is clean way.


I don't need anything fancy, just floppy
access and the right memory environment.
I'm using an Acer Travelmate 212 laptop (an old celeron CPU)

Man, I **HATE** MSDOS...



I should have made it clearer -
- this is a laptop that doesn't have DOS or windows on it.
It's had Mandrake Linux on it for 3 years...

So I don't have the drivers etc anymore for Windows,
nor do I have the WinME (urgh!) CD that would have come with it.

So I've been attempting to install DOS onto it, after
wiping the harddrive. Initially, I hoped to use floppies, but
as you say Siadis doesn't like it. Lord knows why....



Others hate Linux too, while yet others are absolutely
thrilled about it. You only hate DOS (any OS for that matter)
because you don't know how to accomplish something and things
don't work as you want, and there is no help.


No, I hate DOS because IMHO it is crud.
Having gone from programming Basic on an old 32k BBC B micro
(remember those, UK listers? ;-) straight to Amigas, then Win98, etc
I bypassed old 386,486 era PCs and the joys of MSDOS....

But this is OT, so please everyone, NO OS FLAME WARS!  :-)



I hope you do you use ISO->RS232 converter!



Yes, I have an ISO9141 OBDII-to-RS232 converter, that provides
full opto-isolation as well.  It doesn't do any baud rate
conversion, so I'm assuming SAIDIS directly generates the weird
non-standard baud rates that OBDII uses by hitting the hardware directly.

If it doesn't work, then I'll know that I really do need the special
black box and wire from Eddy at HEC, I've got a price for them.
As I said before, that interface box and wire were missing from the
system I got from Carl, and from one of your posts to me they were
probably missing when he originally got it too. No matter, if this
adaptor of mine doesn't work, I'll have to buy the bits from Eddy.

I'm just trying to have a bit of fun "peeking under the hood"  ;-)

Why on earth the automakers couldn't just use normal RS232
when they invented OBDII, I'll never know
( actually, I do know - they wanted to stop people figuring out
 how to connect in and hack the cars they make. Some hope! :-)

Whilst I've got your attention Victor, is there any info available
on the CAN bus port in the Simotion inverter?
I can sign a NDA through work if that's what it takes to
get the info out of Siemens....

Regards

Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- One more thought about safety I think we discussed before, is a crowbar circuit. This would be mainly for runnaway controller problem. Lee please jump in here if I have the terminology wrong . A contactor that shorts the pack upstream of controller blowing the pack fuse. Better than pushing in the clutch and picking comm bars out of bystanders. The thought would be an emergancy stop button inside the vehicle drops out main contactor, if main doesn't drop, then there is power avil thru second contact on emergancy stop to fire the shunt contactor.
DO not attempt with controllers that give you regen as this may produce enought plug breaking to upset the vehicle and loose control.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I think it was Gadget that was looking for louvering dies a while back? I just 
found that VanSant "Trick Tools" (on e-bay) offers a set of louvering rollers 
for use on a fairly standard looking bead roller. I always used a louvering 
press so I don't know how these would work but might be worth a look into. You 
can get a decent 18" bead roller at HF for around $100. Too bad the small bench 
mount one I need is getting hard to find cheap. I need to form beads on 1/2 - 
2" tubing (for less than 400 bucks!) Gonna have to build one I guess. LOL, oh 
well hope this helps someone. 

David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque  
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Richard Bebbington wrote:


I should have made it clearer -
- this is a laptop that doesn't have DOS or windows on it.
It's had Mandrake Linux on it for 3 years...


SIADIS is professional diagnostic tool without fancy
stuff. DOS is DOS, USA or Germany.

THere are probably more flavors of Linux (thanks for free choice
for anyone to mess with it) than windows.

Siemens will not put out software for OS geeks,
it is not the intent. Let's not discus OS.

There is nothing easier than install DOS on a PC -
it is pretty much copying a floppy worth of files.
C'mon.


So I don't have the drivers etc anymore for Windows,
nor do I have the WinME (urgh!) CD that would have come with it.


No need for drivers. You have floppy disk from CArl
with everything you need.


So I've been attempting to install DOS onto it, after
wiping the harddrive. Initially, I hoped to use floppies, but
as you say Siadis doesn't like it. Lord knows why....


See above. Floppies are not used in diag. shops - it's like
having OS on floppies.


No, I hate DOS because IMHO it is crud.


It gets job done as far as SIADIS goes. End of story.


Yes, I have an ISO9141 OBDII-to-RS232 converter, that provides
full opto-isolation as well.  It doesn't do any baud rate
conversion, so I'm assuming SAIDIS directly generates the weird
non-standard baud rates that OBDII uses by hitting the hardware directly.

If it doesn't work, then I'll know that I really do need the special
black box and wire from Eddy at HEC, I've got a price for them.
As I said before, that interface box and wire were missing from the
system I got from Carl, and from one of your posts to me they were
probably missing when he originally got it too. No matter, if this
adaptor of mine doesn't work, I'll have to buy the bits from Eddy.

I'm just trying to have a bit of fun "peeking under the hood"  ;-)


Your fun will end up loosing warranty I'm affraid.
OBDII box wasn't tried and approoved, even if it technically
will work. Get the black box from Carl or HEC.

This is not amateurish system 95% of this list use
(no offence to anyone, don't look for it where there is none)


Why on earth the automakers couldn't just use normal RS232
when they invented OBDII, I'll never know


Because OBD2 (3 and on) are designed mainly for emission systems
control and be able to easily tap to *existing* vehicle
comm buses. RS232 historically is not being one of them
for good reasons I'm not going to discuss here.


( actually, I do know - they wanted to stop people figuring out
 how to connect in and hack the cars they make. Some hope! :-)


Conspiracy... :-) They couldn't care less about that.


Whilst I've got your attention Victor, is there any info available
on the CAN bus port in the Simotion inverter?


IT might if CAN module software has been loaded in.
I never tested it since never had need for it.
RS232 works fine for diagnostics on the bench,
so why bother?


I can sign a NDA through work if that's what it takes to
get the info out of Siemens....


Only handful of parameters really inpact your driving
and they are all accessible to you without trouble.
Anything else is hacking and I'm not going to support that.

You have signed (or should have) that if you do something other
than in the manual, the warranty is void. There is no one to
prevent you from hacking, if you bought hardware to tinker -
fine with me. But there will be definitely no support for this
kind of activity either. It is not how OEM customers would use
the system and the system is meant for OEMs only, not
for Richards with Linuxes abd PBD2 boxes...

NDA has nothing to do with it.

You are already provided means to talk to inverter,
please use it.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Tom Watson wrote:

I am trying to figure out how AC motor regenerating is
accomplished on an ev. Does anybody know?... I can't
believe no one here has looked into this!


Many have. Yes, I know how it works. It is going to
be longish email though.


I'd love to see a simple schematic of an AC controller
with regen braking so I can get the idea into my brain
and let the creative juices work on it. 

Any AC control can do regen - it is really SMOP.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Richard,
We couldn't get it to work under DOS 7 using a Sony VAIO 505FX. SIADIS would start but then would start complaining about a XMS error. We installed Windows 98 over DOS 7 and SIADIS runs fine as a window. We still can't get it to use anything but COM1. 

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bebbington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:41 AM
Subject: More SIADIS questions...(slightly OT)



Hi everyone,

This is one for those who are using Siemens systems:

I'm trying to get an old laptop to load and run SIADIS
so  can try communicating with my inverter, but not
being a DOS guy, I'm having trouble getting the right
DOS environment going to make SIADIS happy.

Specifically, I can get the laptop to boot from a DOS
floppy, with himem.sys and emm386.exe loaded (I think)

But when I type "siadis" to load the software, I get
a partial error message on screen ( can't read it all,
it seems to start off-screen ) saying something about
"available expanded memory -1k"

Then SIADIS loads, says "Customer version 3.11",
and asks me to choose a project file to load.
Whatever I do from this point on, it hangs trying to
access the floppy - it's just stuck, with the floppy drive
spinning. I have to use the power switch to shut it off.

I think it's something to do with expanded memory.
Can anyone give me autoexec.bat and config.sys files
that are known to work with SIADIS, so I can see where
I'm going wrong? I don't need anything fancy, just floppy
access and the right memory environment.
I'm using an Acer Travelmate 212 laptop (an old celeron CPU)

Man, I **HATE** MSDOS...

Thanks,

Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

Hi Victor


RTFM ("F" stands for "fine" :-) )

Siadis WILL NOT work if you boot from floppy.
You use floppy to copy siadis files to a directory.
Boot to Windows, exit to DOS prompt and try.

This does not guarantee it to work as windows
may or may not release the com port, depends on
how it is configured. Boot to DOS straight is clean way.


I don't need anything fancy, just floppy
access and the right memory environment.
I'm using an Acer Travelmate 212 laptop (an old celeron CPU)

Man, I **HATE** MSDOS...



I should have made it clearer -
- this is a laptop that doesn't have DOS or windows on it.
It's had Mandrake Linux on it for 3 years...

So I don't have the drivers etc anymore for Windows,
nor do I have the WinME (urgh!) CD that would have come with it.

So I've been attempting to install DOS onto it, after
wiping the harddrive. Initially, I hoped to use floppies, but
as you say Siadis doesn't like it. Lord knows why....



Others hate Linux too, while yet others are absolutely
thrilled about it. You only hate DOS (any OS for that matter)
because you don't know how to accomplish something and things
don't work as you want, and there is no help.


No, I hate DOS because IMHO it is crud.
Having gone from programming Basic on an old 32k BBC B micro
(remember those, UK listers? ;-) straight to Amigas, then Win98, etc
I bypassed old 386,486 era PCs and the joys of MSDOS....

But this is OT, so please everyone, NO OS FLAME WARS!  :-)



I hope you do you use ISO->RS232 converter!



Yes, I have an ISO9141 OBDII-to-RS232 converter, that provides
full opto-isolation as well.  It doesn't do any baud rate
conversion, so I'm assuming SAIDIS directly generates the weird
non-standard baud rates that OBDII uses by hitting the hardware directly.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
If it doesn't work, then I'll know that I really do need the
black box and wire from Eddy at HEC, I've got a price for them.
As I said before, that interface box and wire were missing from the
system I got from Carl, and from one of your posts to me they were
probably missing when he originally got it too. No matter, if this
adaptor of mine doesn't work, I'll have to buy the bits from Eddy.

I'm just trying to have a bit of fun "peeking under the hood"  ;-)

Why on earth the automakers couldn't just use normal RS232
when they invented OBDII, I'll never know
( actually, I do know - they wanted to stop people figuring out
 how to connect in and hack the cars they make. Some hope! :-)

Whilst I've got your attention Victor, is there any info available
on the CAN bus port in the Simotion inverter?
I can sign a NDA through work if that's what it takes to
get the info out of Siemens....

Regards

Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
We'll be taking lots of digital pics/video and will be posting it to the net
afterwards....

--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power of DC - Friday Night

I hope someone brings a camera and gets some pics of everything for
those on the list who can't make it this time.

http://www.photobucket.com/ or
http://www.spymac.com/user.php?action=register

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
TdS Report #68: Tour de Sol News Media Web Page

Steven Jones-D'Agostino, of  www.BestRateOfClimb.com , has a web page that
contains a comprehensive collection of Tour de Sol items:

     Contact Information
     Results & Profiles
     News Releases
     Photo Gallery
     Audio Gallery
     News Coverage
     Related Articles
     Related Web Forum
     Sponsors & Organizers

The address is
        http://www.BestRateOfClimb.com/tourdesol2005.htm

 -      -       -       -
 The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
             http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
 The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
             http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
 -      -       -       -
 The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
 Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
 without modification and this notice remains attached.
 For other arrangements, contact me at  +1-973-822-2085 .
 -      -       -       -
 For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
                        http://www.TourdeSol.org
 -      -       -       -
 Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
 the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
  413 774-6051 , and  50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] .  All media enquiries should be addressed to ...

        Jack Groh
        Tour de Sol Communications Director
        P.O. Box 6044
        Warwick, RI  02887-6044

        401 732-1551
        401 732-0547 fax
        [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
TdS Report #69: Answer to the Pop Quiz

In Report 60, I posed a Pop Quiz question.
        http://www.autoaud.com/TdS_Reports_2005/#Report60 

The most of the answer is found in the 1998 Tour de Sol Reports.
        http://www.autoauditorium.com/ATdS_Report_1998.html#Report20

The fuel?  Pasta, a biofuel.

 -      -       -       -
 The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
             http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
 The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
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--- Begin Message --- 
I would caution against using a crowbar approach. The amount of current is 
huge, causing lots of sparks and hot wires (before the fuse blows). If you 
batts are not real strong (i.e. discharged), you might not blow the fuse at 
all, and you'll wind up with some hotter wires and batteries.  I guess it would 
slow the car down though.

Why not a manually actuated breaker in series? I have one rigged with an 
AutoZone choke cable, and it kills all HV power from inside the cab. Much less 
destructive, and due to it's simple mechanical operation, very reliable. 

Best regards, Jim Seibert

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jun 7, 2005 5:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of clutch-less?

One more thought about safety I think we discussed before, is a crowbar 
circuit. This would be mainly for runnaway controller problem. Lee 
please jump in here if I have the terminology wrong . A contactor that 
shorts the pack upstream of controller blowing the pack fuse. Better 
than pushing in the clutch and picking comm bars out of bystanders. The 
thought would be an emergancy stop button inside the vehicle drops out 
main contactor, if main doesn't drop, then there is power avil thru 
second contact on emergancy stop to fire the shunt contactor.

  DO not attempt with controllers that give you regen as this may 
produce enought plug breaking to upset the vehicle and loose control.

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--- Begin Message --- 
--- jimevdl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Why not a manually actuated breaker in series? I have one rigged with an 
> AutoZone choke cable,
> and it kills all HV power from inside the cab. Much less destructive, and due 
> to it's simple
> mechanical operation, very reliable. 
> 
How about one of those big red buttons you see on most industrial equipment? Is 
it possible to
mount one of those in the middle of the dash or console within easy slapping 
distance of the
driver or passenger? Might be kinda impressive to place one of those front and 
center, really get
the message across that it's an EV. Might also be a little scarry for some 
people. Do they make
one rated for EV voltages and currents? Could it also do double duty as a 
safety disconnect?

Dave Cover

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--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Don,


Not at all OT!


DOS version 6.2
<snip>


Thanks for posting those!

I tried paring mine down to match yours, one entry at a time,
but no joy. Looks like Siadis just doesn't like floppies.

So now I've put DOS onto a partition on the laptop,
but the old Linux bootloader is still there.
Even though I used DOS's fdisk to do the partitions
(and make the DOS one bootable), and formatted the new DOS partition,
AND used the SYS c: command to transfer the system files, it still didn't
sort out the low-level bootloader!

Grrrrr...

So now I'm re-installing Mandrake, but leaving the new
DOS partition alone. With any luck, this will sort it
out so it can multi-boot, into either DOS or Linux.

Ugh. What a fight... ( it's been one of THOSE days )

Regards

Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Well, Lowell, Matt and I will be getting in hopefully late Friday afternoon.
I can be reached on my cell: 561-543-9223 or will be checking email till
Thursday: shawn AT suncoast DOT net. We'd love to get together with whoever
is in town then.

--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Sullivan
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power of DC - Friday Night

I'll be at Motel 8 Friday and Saturday, not sure what time I'll get 
there maybe
7 at the latest, depends how many pit stops along the way and if we can 
leave by
9.

James

Quoting Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 8:47 AM
> Subject: Power of DC - Friday Night
>
>
>> Barring any Wayland type events, I'll be there Friday night also. Do you
> have reservations?  Where's everybody staying?
>>
>> I game for a get together, haven't heard about one yet though.
>> -- Hi Tim;
>
>    Seeya friday nite. Will camp out in my Van that nite. May look for a
> place SAT nite, sleep inside, running water etc, head back Sun DAY
> driving.Should be fun!
>
>   Seeya
>
>    Bob
>> Stay Charged!
>> Hump
>> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
> untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
>> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>>
>> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
>> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>>
>>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here's some handy tricks...

To capture an existing master boot record and it's bootloader use
dd if=/dev/hda of=bootsect.xyz bs=512 count=1
From Linux, the resulting bootsect.xyz is your bootrecord file which
you can point to with boot.ini from a win9x/nt/2000/xp installation.

Dos doesn't have any multi-boot options, but there is a ?loadlinux?
thingee which will bootstrap and load linux once inside dos, haven't
used this utility since early slackware so I may have the name wrong.

Use fdisk /mbr to flush the boot record from dos.

Your linux bootloader can also be pointed to
/dev/hda1 (first primary partition) or /dev/hda2 (second primary), etc.
This is how you multi-boot from linux with lilo or grub, I think
you can also use the bootsect.xyz stuff in linux, but I'm not sure.
The dd trick can be used to capture any partitions boot records
by replacing /dev/hda with /dev/hda1 ,2,3,4,etc or for a slave drive
use /dev/hdb, secondary-master /dev/hdc, secondary-slave /dev/hdd.

Unfortunently dos/windows doesn't have as simple a naming convencion
for it's disk drives, and is incapable of creating multiple primary
partitions other than an extended and subsiquent logical partitions.
And it's boot order is sorty odd, first comes each drives primary
partition, then comes extended/logical partitions, anyway....

L8r
 Ryan

Richard Bebbington wrote:

Hi Don,


Not at all OT!


DOS version 6.2
<snip>


Thanks for posting those!

I tried paring mine down to match yours, one entry at a time,
but no joy. Looks like Siadis just doesn't like floppies.

So now I've put DOS onto a partition on the laptop,
but the old Linux bootloader is still there.
Even though I used DOS's fdisk to do the partitions
(and make the DOS one bootable), and formatted the new DOS partition,
AND used the SYS c: command to transfer the system files, it still didn't
sort out the low-level bootloader!

Grrrrr...

So now I'm re-installing Mandrake, but leaving the new
DOS partition alone. With any luck, this will sort it
out so it can multi-boot, into either DOS or Linux.

Ugh. What a fight... ( it's been one of THOSE days )

Regards

Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 12:12 PM 7/06/05 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Motors/DSC00034.JPG
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Motors/DSC00035.JPG with ETEK as size comparison.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Motors/DSC00036.JPG
The 2.4kw motors have gear reductions of 20 to one. The small pump motor aught to push a scooter well. The other pump motor should push a motorcycle of moped well. 

Hi Lawrence and all

well, lotsa possibilities.

Thoughts:
1) take a peek at the hydraulic pump motor and see if the brush gear is the same as the traction motors. Might be better to put it aside as spares (then you'll never need them...). 2) 20:1 is a fair bit too low for a road-going EV, reductions are probably no use. 3) two motors set up like White Zombie (was), no gearbox, at 120V or so?. Only be a commuter, certainly not a drag racer (unless you don't mind the risk, I believe one of the earlier EV drag bikes [Bill Dube?] had a 24V motor at 120V and survived fairly well). 4) power steering may be worth looking at using as-is to provide power steering, need to have a 24V accessory system though. 

Just $0.02
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This is how I understand it.  There are three half
bridges in an AC controller.  This allows you to sink
or source current into the three phases of the motor. 
To rotate the motor, you pulse width modulate the
current into each phase to resemble a sine wave that
is 120 degrees out of phase with each adjacent phase. 
The sum total of the EM field that is created in the
motor is a vector.  This vector is perpendicular to
the axis of the shaft, and by rotating this vector,
you induce a current into the rotor.  The difference
between the field's rotational velocity and the
velocity of the rotor is called "slip".  Motors are
designed to run at a certain slip, usually 1 to 3%.

Regeneration is created by running negative slip
(spinning the EM field slower than the rotor). 
Therefore, there is no additional circuitry to do
regeneration in AC drives.  You already need to close
the loop on the current going into / out of each
phase, and you're usually closing the loop on the
frequency of the sine wave, as well as closing a slip
loop.

I have studied this, but I haven't actually done it
yet, so some of what I said might be a little bit off.

> From: Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: AC motor operation... does anybody know how
> these work?
> To: [email protected]
> 
> I am trying to figure out how AC motor regenerating
> is
> accomplished on an ev. Does anybody know?... I can't
> believe no one here has looked into this!
> 
> I'd love to see a simple schematic of an AC
> controller
> with regen braking so I can get the idea into my
> brain
> and let the creative juices work on it.  
> 
> My background has been lots of digital and
> transistor
> theory in 2yrs of tech college. We did do AC theory
> but it was limited to power supplies ad basic stuff.
> Tom



                
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

BillDube wrote:

>>>>> Ka-Bang <<<<
I was in the King Soupers parking lot. I put the car in neutral, pushed in the clutch, and turned the key to "start". After the pre-charge, the main contactor pulled in, there was a loud "bang" and the whole car shuddered (almost "hopped" actually.) The next sound was the motor whining down in RPM like a jet engine.
If I had not disengaged the clutch or put the car in neutral, the Wabbit would have launched into the car in front of me, or run over the lady with the shopping cart behind me.
Something in the logic failed on my Auburn controller. The FETs went full on. They opened up only after the current finally blew them apart.
This could not happen with an AC drive. The drive must be fully intelligent to spin the motor. Yes, it could go "bang". No, it would not spin the motor.
Always turn the power on or off in neutral. I can do that without a clutch (and I do) - no new danger presented. 


>>>>    Phantom steamroller <<<
I approached a traffic light in Downtown Denver. I let my foot off the throttle and applied the brake. The car "kind of" slowed down, but not like it should have. As the distance narrowed to the car in front of me, I increased the force on the brake pedal, but this only slowed the car slightly. I then put both feet on the brake pedal and pushed as hard as I could. The car slowed more, but would not stop and continued to move towards the car in front of me at about 10 MPH. It was like there was a steam roller pushing my car from behind. I then moved my left foot off the brake and pushed in the clutch, barely in time to keep from hitting the car in front of me.
If I had not pushed in the clutch, we would have both driven into the path of the traffic zipping by in front of us at about 45 MPH (Speer Blvd.)
A nut had come loose and jammed the pot-box arm so it would not completely return to zero.
This could happen with an AC drive, but they don't have near the torque of a series-wound DC motor, so the brakes would have stopped the car.
With the reduced torque of an AC drive you would have likely been in the next lower gear (for "good performance".) Less torque but more torque multiplication - same problem. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is a really good idea to leave the clutch in a DC conversion.
It is not much of an issue when you remove the clutch in an AC conversion.
Until one you find the failure of locking one phase on while going 60mph! I've not heard of it yet, but there are few AC conversions on the road compared to series DC conversions. It IS a failure mode (and one not unlike the DC controller "lock on" failure.) 


Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>Imagine sitting waiting for green, Usually your bumper is 3-4 feet
>away from the car in front of you. Sould your controller fail full >on
>at this time, calculate your reaction time to pull that hand brake.
By far the least likely time for a DC controller to fail. They tend to fail in response to change (electronics tend to fail by change or heat.) Its paranoia, not unlike fearing your clutch linkage will brake sitting at a stop light in an ICE (and that has happened to me - once in a Yugo.) 

ohnjoe wrote:
>Being a newbie and all and having recently driven both clutched and
>cluthless. I like the clutch because you can (if you want)start >out in a >lower gear and the shift are quicker, Hence it seems to go with the >traffic 
>flow a little better.
THERE is a reason. Clutchless will be slower shifting in almost any transmission or transaxle. That said, some are worse than others. Some aren't bad at all (but racers need the clutch if they want to shift in that kind of hurry.) 

Ryan Scotts wrote:
>Take your current vehicle and drive it around and shift it without
>using the clutch to see what it would be like.
Very bad comparison. ICEs resist because they idle (input shaft target rpm.) EVs don't compare well that way either because the inertia of the flywheel and clutch components add a great deal of inertia to the job the syncros deal with. 

Roy LeMeur wrote:
[about running clutchless]
>If the potential customer is already a dyed-in-the-wool motorhead >to begin with, he will laugh even harder.
Tell them that EVs don't idle - the motor spins free just like the input shaft of an ICE with the clutch pushed in. They understand that (and in my experience respect the concept of no clutch needed.) 

Roy wrote previously:
>I am just going to say that I personally would never convert one >without a clutch, the biggest reason being safety concerns. 
>
>And... IMHO I see doing a conversion without a clutch as being just >plain lame. 

Well, your opinion is worth exactly what I paid for it - nothing.
Safety concerns can be mitigated - the stock Curtis way of opening the main contactor whenever your foot is off the throttle will mitigate many of them.
Of course I have a beach buggy - there are no safety concerns when you don't have bumpers, seat belts, or any side impact resistance (OK, those COULD be safety concerns to you - but the EV specific ones seem distant.) 

Stefano Landi wrote:
>What I was wondering is I've read over the years that some people >remove the clutch entirely and most EV converters leave the clutch. >Could someone tell me very briefly or point to a good source as to >the Pros and Cons and going clutch-less.
In the end the choice to keep a clutch or not is a combination of your needs and the chosen tranny. Some transmissions and transaxles can shift a clutchless EV without significantly shortened life or significant slowness shifting (significant being partly a personal decision.) Other trannys will suffer a short life making the syncros match rpm of the motor armature, and be very slow shifting. If you want to ditch the clutch you should go all the way and use a motor/ tranny coupler that minimizes inertia at that point. You should also ask about others clutchless experience with your particular transaxle.
My EV Buggy uses a Ruland shaft coupler, only about 2 1/2 inches in diameter and 4 inches long. The aircooled Beetle transaxle shifts a little slower than with a clutch, but it works great and I seldom need to shift anyway (once between 35 and 55mph, if I am hitting the freeway.) 

Paul "neon" G.

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