EV Digest 4473
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: White Zombie Emergency Shut-down Device
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electrothon bubble
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Who rebuilds Curtis controllers
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electrothon bubble
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: acceleration problem/help still needed
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Different types of AC drive systems
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Transaxle Weight?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: High voltage/Low Current Relay
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: High voltage/Low Current Relay
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Anyone know how to change a 1221 B into a 144v controller?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Sent controller. Lost contact
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Honda Transaxle strength
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Idea for a high current interrupr device
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Carbon brushes
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Anyone know how to change a 1221 B into a 144v controller?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Carbon brushes
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Relay Rating (was RE: High voltage/Low Current Relay)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Sent controller. Lost contact
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) BB600 Cell Monitor test (and Cell test!)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ed Koffeman wrote:
> > the resultant arc lit up the car inside, causing the 'stang driver to
> > later ask me, "Hey,
> > what's up with you taking pictures inside your car at 100+ mph?
>
> Some people just don't understand what a photo finish is all about.
>
> Ed Koffeman
Ed, that's good! Ya know, I've told the 'taking pictures inside my car' bit
many times but
you're the first to come up with that.
See Ya....John Waylaid
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm
I found an article!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Curtis Controller that needs to be taken apart and diagnosed &
repaired.(144v ) Who can do this for me and at what cost? Thanks.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks
kEVs
--- reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm
>
> every thing you need to know is on this hpv site
> have fun
> reb
>
> keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> this is an old post but i am getting ready to build
> a
> canope/bubble and plan on making an oven like
> this...
> if anyone knows where the information about this
> experiment is i would appreciate it as it would
> shorten my learning curve. I did some blow molding
> and drape forming in college but that has been long
> ago anyone with experiance feel free to give advice
> thanks
> keith
>
> --- Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > I looked into this. One group made a pair of
> > aluminum plates with an
> > air fitting in the middle of the top one and an
> oval
> > hole with bolts
> > every inch around it.
> > This was placed, with the oval hole down over 4
> > walls made from
> > fireplace panels and set on bricks in the corners.
> > A double burner propane camp stove was placed in
> the
> > middle with a piece
> > of solid metel pipe thru a hole in the panels to a
> > propane tank.
> > A 1" steel plate was placed over both burners and
> it
> > was fired up.
> > A peephole with glass had been put in one side
> with
> > a line on the
> > opposite wall.
> > When the material began to sag, the operator
> opened
> > an air valve and
> > inflated down to the line.
> > They turned off the burner and kept hitting the
> air
> > valve to keep it
> > inflated as the air cooled and shrank.
> >
> > The material used was vivex, a PTEG . That is 2
> > liter bottle material,
> > it is opticaly clear and can be purchased in 4x8
> > sheets in .093 or .125
> > thicknesses.
> >
> > Sorry, I couldn't find the link, The guys sell
> them.
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> worldwide with voicemail
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks I'll try that one. John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: acceleration problem/help still needed
> At 10:19 AM -0700 7/2/05, john wrote:
> >I check everything everyone suggested and all test good. The only other
> >thing I think it could be is the controller. I have a Kodac searies,
Auburn
> >Scientific C600 controller. Anyone know who could check out this
controller
> >or repair it. Someone suggested Otmar!??
> >Thanks for any guideance.
> >John Barnes ,Tucson.
>
> I don't work on the Auburn controllers, but last I heard Dave Luiz in
> Sebastopol, CA works on them. My latest contact for him is:
>
> (anti spam distortion follows) davidluiz (Uppercase #2) pacbell dot
net
>
> If anyone needs a Auburn C600 manual, I just scanned one. Email me
> offlist for a copy. (600K)
>
> hth,
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I have been driving the 200sx conversion pretty much without any
problems for 6 months straight. I have been making small modifications
and adding things here and there to make it more solid and reliable.
I've officially put 1000 miles on it so far.
One thing that I finally concluded *had* to change. I built a small
logic circuit to connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's) to the
traction pack only when the vehicle is turned "on" (i.e. ready to
drive). I did this to avoid having them on all the time, especially
during charging.
The consequence of this has been a way under-performing 12V battery. It
was a crummy battery to begin with. But with all the time I spend with
the hatchback open while adjusting charging, the doors open working on
things, etc, the 12V battery was going dead. Keep in mind that when I
don't have the key in the ignition and in the on position, the 12V
battery is on its own.
This has been pretty much the only problem I've faced. It's gotten
worse since I installed the e-meter. It puts about a 20-50mA load on
the 12V system constantly. So every few weeks or days, I go to drive
off, and have a dead 12V system. And since the relays that connect the
DC/DC's to the traction pack run on the 12V system, its a nasty cycle -
I have to pull a spare wire from my glove-box, and bypass the relay for
a split second long enough to bring the 12V system to life, and the
relays then snap into place.
So I decided I'd do what I think most people do and leave the DC/DC's on
all the time. I concluded that it's not a big deal to have it on while
charging. It shouldn't affect the PFC-20 charging scheme. I guess it
could have some affect if I have the radio blaring, lights on, and
blower motor going...but it won't be a dramatic affect.
Others in the past have mentioned that leaving the 12V battery on this
constant 13.6V (or so) charge is a terrible charging scheme for it,
which could result in a shorter life. I'd like to eventually ditch the
12V accessory battery, and go with a sufficiently sized capacitor. Does
anyone have any suggestions for what to use? Part numbers and suppliers
would be helpful. Is anyone out there using a capacitor (super cap,
ultra cap) in place of the 12V SLI? Please chime in with what you're using.
I mostly wrote this post to give those doing conversions some food for
thought when it comes time to make this decision on how they'll do
things. I would conclude that it's not worth the hassle of
disconnecting the DC/DC from the traction pack at any time. It might be
good, however, to isolate it with a switch for times when you put the
car away for extended periods of time. Flipping the main traction pack
breaker does the trick with my setup.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> Are there different types of AC motor control, like standard AC and
> Vector control AC, or are they one and the same?
Oh, yes! There are *many* control strategies. Vector control is only one
of them (and rather fashionable at the moment).
> If there is a difference, then are the Siemens motor/controllers
> vector control? Do the Solectras use vector controllers?
Others can answer this with confidence, but I would guess that they are
vector controls.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Avoid the Metro/Swift/Firefly transaxle. It can't even handle the
output of
the stock 1.3L motor. The Civic/Integra transaxles are a good choice.
Tim
On Jul 2, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 29, 2005 10:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Transaxle Weight?
I have been researching how I want to connect the motor to the
wheels for
this new sports car I am building.
It must be independent suspension, lightweight and have a very ratios
available for it (at least 4.3:1)
Two options are a direct drive to a lightweight rear differential
or use a
lightweight transaxle.
1) For light differentials, there is the Mazda Miata and the R160 from
Datsun 510s and Subarus. These weight approx 50-70lbs.
2) As for a transaxle, I was thinking the Geo Metro.
Does anyone know the actual weight of a Geo Metro transaxle?
Any suggestions for other suitable lightweight transaxles out there?
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Saturday, July 2, 2005, at 08:52 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
BadFishRacing wrote:
Hi all,
Looking for a relay to switch 15A at 48V.
OK I'm confused (which has been my general state of being with regard
to the electrical details of my ev conversion).
How would one describe a relay with a 12 v coil used to open/close a
48v circuit carrying 15 amps?
I thought that is what badfish was describing with "Looking for a relay
to switch 15A at 48V.",(with an implicit assumption or lack of
specification of the coil voltage), however Christopher interpreted
that to mean a 48v coil used to open/close a 15 amp circuit at an
unspecified voltage?
Is there a standard way to reference such beasts?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some excellent aircraft contactors that will do this for around
$30.00. E-mail me OL if you want one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:35 AM
Subject: High voltage/Low Current Relay
Hi all,
Looking for a relay to switch 15A at 48V.
A) High dollar kilovac or something or more current rating than I need
B) 12V rated DPST automotive relay and use both poles in series
C) 12V rated relay and replace more frequently
Any ideas?
Thanks
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have access to a 1221 Controller. Can any one upgrade it into a 144v
controller?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Had a computer glitch. Sent out a controller(1221Curtis) can't seem to find
the contact info. It was to someone in the Bay Area. If you have your ears
on please contact.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My '92 Honda Civic Hatchback conversion will be capable of a healthy amount
of torque, and I am questioning the ability of the stock (Mod.S20)5-spd
trans. and half-shafts to handle the higher loads. Here are the basics-
Warp 9" motor
Zilla Z1K
18 Optima 34's (216V)
Final vehicle weight est.= 2950 lbs
Desired motor current limit = 1000amps (quick grocery runs)
My automotive experience dates back to the days of Muncie M22's and BW Super
T10's coupled to Ford 9" or Dana rear ends. Weight wasn't much of an issue
and strength wasn't much of a question.
Now, the new breed of highly engineered lightweight FWD units has me a
little baffled. I wonder how a 73lb trans can handle the redline launches
and power-shifts of a 350hp maxed out Si Civic. Yes, the hi-rpm ICE torque
curve is totally different from a 1000 amped WarP9 , but the Honda
transmissions must be quite strong none-the-less.
Tim Clevenger's recent reply to Don Cameron touches on this-
>>Avoid the Metro/Swift/Firefly transaxle. It can't even handle the output
of the stock 1.3L motor. The Civic/Integra transaxles are a good choice.<<
Hmmm...how good are they?
My question to Tim and anyone else that might have some real world
experience with Honda transaxles and half-shafts- Are my stock components
likely to handle the EV torque? (Trans has low miles/half-shafts will be
remans.) Note- This car is not being built for racing, so full-on
launches are not required. BUT, the 5mph pedal-to-the-metal foot spasm
could be a problem.
Lower gear launches or higher gear launches?
Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Richard Rau
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The postings I have read recently have given me an idea for a compact
emergency current interrupt device. The arc interrupt device would be
housed in the barrel of a used or deliberately blown HRC fuse. The
element would be a fusible material rated at say 2000A housed inside the
barrel surrounded by the usual quartz Xs but pulled at one end by a
valve spring held off using HT steel wire. A outer vessel filled with a
smaller amount of sand would catch the red hot steel. When you want to
blow the fuse you inject current into the steel wire. Pyro techs could
be used instead of the spring. I haven't given all details to fabricate
as it is only a concept. The beauty of this device is that it would be
compact, rewirable and readily connectable in the power circuit. Edison
would have patented it.
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody know where I can get a set of 4 brushes 18mm X 10mm cross
section 2 pigtails each. Composition needs to have copper powder like
starter motor brushes. Can also mill off material if bigger than this.
Could also use 2 off 9 X 10 together.
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes , sell the 1221 and buy a 144, ,,, how much do you want for the 1221?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 1:01 AM
Subject: Anyone know how to change a 1221 B into a 144v controller?
I have access to a 1221 Controller. Can any one upgrade it into a 144v
controller?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try the Brush Guy.
http://www.repcoinc.com<http://www.repcoinc.com/>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: djsharpe<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 2:53 AM
Subject: Carbon brushes
Does anybody know where I can get a set of 4 brushes 18mm X 10mm cross
section 2 pigtails each. Composition needs to have copper powder like
starter motor brushes. Can also mill off material if bigger than this.
Could also use 2 off 9 X 10 together.
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's how I do it, which seems to work well for the EEs I come in contact
with:
"Coil: 12VDC Contacts: 48VDC 15A DPDT"
Make sure you specify the coil and contacts as either DC or AC, as they very
much **are** different!
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John O'Connor
Sent: July 2, 2005 10:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: High voltage/Low Current Relay
On Saturday, July 2, 2005, at 08:52 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
> BadFishRacing wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Looking for a relay to switch 15A at 48V.
OK I'm confused (which has been my general state of being with regard to the
electrical details of my ev conversion).
How would one describe a relay with a 12 v coil used to open/close a 48v
circuit carrying 15 amps?
I thought that is what badfish was describing with "Looking for a relay to
switch 15A at 48V.",(with an implicit assumption or lack of specification
of the coil voltage), however Christopher interpreted that to mean a 48v
coil used to open/close a 15 amp circuit at an unspecified voltage?
Is there a standard way to reference such beasts?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I upgraded my 1221 to 1231, I sent it to Mike
Brown of ElectroAutomotive. He's in the Santa Cruz
area. Does that help?
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Had a computer glitch. Sent out a
> controller(1221Curtis) can't seem to find
> the contact info. It was to someone in the Bay
> Area. If you have your ears
> on please contact.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I can see where you're going with this...
I have the same issue if I only do ultra short trips.
Yes, I'd agree the e-meter is the main culprit. So if
I leave on vacation, I pull the fuses from the
e-meter.
I'd say, try to do the work on the rig during the
day, so you can turn off the dome lights. They're a
pretty high current draw. I use a garage boombox when
working on the car, and not the car stereo, but if you
have major wattage in power booster for your car
stereo, that could be slurping some juice...
FYI: I had a combustion rig with a faulty Kenwood
stereo causing the same issue. It was pulling 750 mA,
and the 12V aux was going dead. Have you checked the
draw from your stereo? A $50 IC was replaced, and now
the stereo pulls no more than 50-100 mA when it's on
(or was that when it's off? It's been a year since I
sold it, now that my EV is on the road).
One thing _I_ think would be a bummer, is that your
vac. pump is a high current draw, so one either
switches it on when you drive _separately_, or it
keeps going on and off, since the DCDC is on all the
time. That is not a sound I enjoy. (;-p
Good luck on a solution.
Sincerely,
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have been driving the 200sx conversion pretty much
> without any
> problems for 6 months straight. I have been making
> small modifications
> and adding things here and there to make it more
> solid and reliable.
> I've officially put 1000 miles on it so far.
>
> One thing that I finally concluded *had* to change.
> I built a small
> logic circuit to connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp
> Iota's) to the
> traction pack only when the vehicle is turned "on"
> (i.e. ready to
> drive). I did this to avoid having them on all the
> time, especially
> during charging.
>
> The consequence of this has been a way
> under-performing 12V battery. It
> was a crummy battery to begin with. But with all
> the time I spend with
> the hatchback open while adjusting charging, the
> doors open working on
> things, etc, the 12V battery was going dead. Keep
> in mind that when I
> don't have the key in the ignition and in the on
> position, the 12V
> battery is on its own.
>
> This has been pretty much the only problem I've
> faced. It's gotten
> worse since I installed the e-meter. It puts about
> a 20-50mA load on
> the 12V system constantly. So every few weeks or
> days, I go to drive
> off, and have a dead 12V system. And since the
> relays that connect the
> DC/DC's to the traction pack run on the 12V system,
> its a nasty cycle -
> I have to pull a spare wire from my glove-box, and
> bypass the relay for
> a split second long enough to bring the 12V system
> to life, and the
> relays then snap into place.
>
> So I decided I'd do what I think most people do and
> leave the DC/DC's on
> all the time. I concluded that it's not a big deal
> to have it on while
> charging. It shouldn't affect the PFC-20 charging
> scheme. I guess it
> could have some affect if I have the radio blaring,
> lights on, and
> blower motor going...but it won't be a dramatic
> affect.
>
> Others in the past have mentioned that leaving the
> 12V battery on this
> constant 13.6V (or so) charge is a terrible charging
> scheme for it,
> which could result in a shorter life. I'd like to
> eventually ditch the
> 12V accessory battery, and go with a sufficiently
> sized capacitor. Does
> anyone have any suggestions for what to use? Part
> numbers and suppliers
> would be helpful. Is anyone out there using a
> capacitor (super cap,
> ultra cap) in place of the 12V SLI? Please chime in
> with what you're using.
>
> I mostly wrote this post to give those doing
> conversions some food for
> thought when it comes time to make this decision on
> how they'll do
> things. I would conclude that it's not worth the
> hassle of
> disconnecting the DC/DC from the traction pack at
> any time. It might be
> good, however, to isolate it with a switch for times
> when you put the
> car away for extended periods of time. Flipping the
> main traction pack
> breaker does the trick with my setup.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at
> great prices!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, I am running into the exact same problem. If I do not drive for a
couple of days, the E-Meter, and occasionally 12V lights in use while
working on the vehicle, will cause the 12V accessory battery to get run
down.
Since I use an integrated Siemens DC-DC, I need to take a different
approach. My EMeter is run via a very small DC-DC converter off 12V DC. So
I am going to "tap the pack" and run this little DC-DC from a battery in the
main pack. Thus the E-Meter will be powered by a battery in the pack,
rather than the small accessory battery.
What if this one battery gets too run down? My battery balancer will pick it
up and supplemental charge it.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: July 2, 2005 8:42 PM
To: EV List
Subject: DC/DC...so much for being smart
Hi Everyone,
I have been driving the 200sx conversion pretty much without any problems
for 6 months straight. I have been making small modifications and adding
things here and there to make it more solid and reliable.
I've officially put 1000 miles on it so far.
One thing that I finally concluded *had* to change. I built a small logic
circuit to connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's) to the traction pack
only when the vehicle is turned "on" (i.e. ready to drive). I did this to
avoid having them on all the time, especially during charging.
The consequence of this has been a way under-performing 12V battery. It was
a crummy battery to begin with. But with all the time I spend with the
hatchback open while adjusting charging, the doors open working on things,
etc, the 12V battery was going dead. Keep in mind that when I don't have
the key in the ignition and in the on position, the 12V battery is on its
own.
This has been pretty much the only problem I've faced. It's gotten worse
since I installed the e-meter. It puts about a 20-50mA load on the 12V
system constantly. So every few weeks or days, I go to drive off, and have
a dead 12V system. And since the relays that connect the DC/DC's to the
traction pack run on the 12V system, its a nasty cycle - I have to pull a
spare wire from my glove-box, and bypass the relay for a split second long
enough to bring the 12V system to life, and the relays then snap into place.
So I decided I'd do what I think most people do and leave the DC/DC's on all
the time. I concluded that it's not a big deal to have it on while
charging. It shouldn't affect the PFC-20 charging scheme. I guess it could
have some affect if I have the radio blaring, lights on, and blower motor
going...but it won't be a dramatic affect.
Others in the past have mentioned that leaving the 12V battery on this
constant 13.6V (or so) charge is a terrible charging scheme for it, which
could result in a shorter life. I'd like to eventually ditch the 12V
accessory battery, and go with a sufficiently sized capacitor. Does anyone
have any suggestions for what to use? Part numbers and suppliers would be
helpful. Is anyone out there using a capacitor (super cap, ultra cap) in
place of the 12V SLI? Please chime in with what you're using.
I mostly wrote this post to give those doing conversions some food for
thought when it comes time to make this decision on how they'll do things.
I would conclude that it's not worth the hassle of disconnecting the DC/DC
from the traction pack at any time. It might be good, however, to isolate
it with a switch for times when you put the car away for extended periods of
time. Flipping the main traction pack breaker does the trick with my setup.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's) to the traction pack
> only when the vehicle is turned "on" (i.e. ready to drive)...
> The consequence has been a way under-performing 12V battery...
> It's gotten worse since I installed the e-meter... So every few
> weeks or days, I go to drive off, and have a dead 12V system.
> Others in the past have mentioned that leaving the 12V battery
> on this constant 13.6V (or so) charge is a terrible charging
> scheme for it, which could result in a shorter life.
13.6v is a "float" voltage; you can leave it on the battery all the
time, but it takes *days* to return to full charge. Since you only drove
1000 miles in 6 months, the DC/DC's were off almost all the time; thus
the 12v battery never got charged.
If you're going to switch the DC/DC's on only while driving, then they
need to be adjusted for a higher voltage, 14v or more. This is what they
do in regular cars, where the alternator delivers somewhere between
13.8v and 14.4v when running.
If your EV tends to be parked for weeks at a stretch, then it's better
to leave the DC/DC at 13.5v and leave it on all the time. The float
voltage is supposed to be temperature compensated -- 13.2-13.8v
depending on temperature and battery type and age. Most DC/DCs are not
really chargers at all; just constant-voltage power supplies that have
no temperature compensation. So, you'll have to adjust them manually.
Measure the input current being drawn by your DC/DCs when the car is
just sitting. You may find that the propulsion pack is now being loaded
at 20-50ma continuously -- so instead of a dead/damaged 12v battery
after a few weeks, you'll have a dead/damaged propulsion pack!
> I'd like to eventually ditch the 12V accessory battery, and go with
> a sufficiently sized capacitor. Does anyone have any suggestions
> for what to use?
The amount of capacitance needed depends on the peak load on your 12v
system. Worst-case is typically occurs when you have everything turned
on when you switch on the key. The capacitance needs to be big enough so
the voltage doesn't sag so low that your clock, radio, trip odometers,
E-meter and other electronic gadgets don't lose their memory.
I used a 25,000uF 16vdc computer-grade electrolytic with two Vicor 200w
DC/DCs in my old ComutaVan. This worked, but this was a vehicle with
*no* 12v electronics -- no clock, no radio, mechanical odometer, etc.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Eric Poulsen wrote:
> I'm wondering about the SOC algorithm... Lee, I'm looking at you! =)
Here's an application note written by Steve Kahle, who wrote the
software for the Cruising Equipment E-meter:
--
Practical Application of Peukerts Equation - by Steve Kahle
One of the most interesting new features implemented in the E-meter is
the treatment of Peukerts Equation. Peukert describes the effect of
varying discharge rates on a battery, but he neglected to document a
comprehensive description of both charge and discharge currents needed
to determine the state-of-charge of the battery. CECO engineers have
tried to complete the description of the cycle in a practical way that
will be described below.
Discharging
Using a user selectable capacity (C) and a user selectable Peukert
coefficient (N), the E-meter calculates a 20 hour discharge rate (I20)
and capacity (Cp) based on Peukerts equation. Then a multiplier (M) is
calculated from the ratio of Cp/C. Two state-of-charge capacity values
are tracked:
Crem = C + (I x time) and Cprem = Cp + (Ip x time)
I20 = C/20 hr
Cp = (I20) N x 20 hr
M = Cp / C
Discharge rates equal to or less than the 20 hr rate are multiplied by
the factor (M) to normalize them to Cp. Then they are used as the
effective discharge rate (-Ip). Example:
C = 200 Ahr N = 1.25
I20 = 200 Ahr / 20 hr = 10 A
Cp = (10 A)^1.25 x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
M = 355.6 Ahr / 200 Ahr = 1.778
Therefore a 20 hr discharge at 10 A would deplete the 100% of the
battery capacity using Crem or Cprem at the same rate.
Discharge rates greater than the 20 hr rate are calculated using
Peukerts equation and have a greater effect on capacity, reducing the
time the load may be supplied. Example:
C = 200 Ahr N = 1.25 I = 30 A
time = (Crem - C) / I = (0 Ahr - 200 Ahr) / 30 A = 6.67 hrs
(this is time to deplete the battery)
Ip = (30 A)^1.25 = 70.2 A
time = (Cprem - Cp) / Ip = (0 Ahr - 355.6 Ahr) / 70.2 A = 5.06 hrs
(Peukert time to deplete)
As the discharge rate goes up, the greater effect Peukerts equation
has.
Charging
When I goes from discharge to charge, a multiplier (U) is calculated
from the ratio of Cprem / Crem. Charging current is then the observed
current (I) multiplied by (U) and then multiplied by the batterys
efficiency (CEF) to calculate an effective charge rate (+Ip). Further
Cprem is limited while rising by Crem as an upper limit. Example:
C = 200 Ahr I = +30 A Crem = 100 Ahr Cprem = 148 Ahr CEF = 90%
U = 148 Ahr / 100 Ahr = 1.48
+Ip = (30 A) x 1.48 x 0.90 = 39.96 A
This way as the battery is charged both Crem and Cprem will reach full
at the same time.
Summary
Using this combination of formulas to determine a Peukerts capacity
(Cp), a 20 hr discharge rate (I20), multipliers for discharge (M) and
charge (U), with given data representing a 20 hr capacity (C), charge
efficiency (CEF) and Peukerts coefficient (N), the E-meter can
calculate an accurate state-of-charge on a wide variety of batteries and
applications. The break point at the 20 hr discharge rate with the (M)
multiplier used at or below the 20 hr rate removes the portion of the
performance curve where Peukerts equation diverges from reality. The
charge multiplier (U) used with the batterys own efficiency (CEF)
finishes the other half of the cycle that Peukert didnt choose to
address.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ah yes, the old DC-DC dialog again. I've been very outspoken on this for many
years, and
have the proof to back up how my way of doing this, works great.
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I built a small logic circuit to connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's) to
> the
> traction pack only when the vehicle is turned "on" (i.e. ready to
> drive). I did this to avoid having them on all the time, especially
> during charging. The consequence of this has been a way under-performing 12V
> battery....Keep in mind that when I
> don't have the key in the ignition and in the on position, the 12V
> battery is on its own.
>
> It's gotten worse since I installed the e-meter. It puts about a 20-50mA
> load on
> the 12V system constantly. So every few weeks or days, I go to drive
> off, and have a dead 12V system.
Most all of my EVs past and present, use a dual voltage switching system that
keeps the
DC-DC on all the time and floats the 12V battery at ~ 13.2V, then up-shifts to
14.2-14.5V
when the key is on. These EVs also have small parasitic draws, like the
aforementioned
Emeter, stereo system memory, alarm memory, etc. It's pretty hard to argue with
my
results....the first baby Optima YT, a 15 ahr small 12V battery used in Blue
Meanie,
lasted 7 l-o-n-g years under this system! When I say 'lasted', that means the
battery
would still run headlights, stereo system, etc. with the DC-DC temporarily
switched out of
circuit for the 12V battery test purpose, for an easy half hour run. With the
test over
and the DC-DC back on line, the way you can tell if the battery still is doing
its thing
of course, is if you can pull large current demands and not 'brown-out' the 12V
system.
Blue Meanie's under-hood Todd converter goes from ~ 13.2V at float levels, up
to 14.5 or
so with the key on. This gives crisp, bright headlights (this car uses classic
Cibe'
headlight inserts for brilliant road coverage), swift acting wipers, snapping
turn
signals, hi velocity ventilation air, and of course, the max audio thrill from
its
multiple car amps. Speaking of the amps, a second rear mounted DC-DC that is
not running
most of the time, comes on line at 14.5V to keep a .5 Farad cap bank charged up
that feeds
the two rear subwoofer amps, and also feeds some of its juice to the main 12V
system.
Even the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor has the dual voltage DC-DC thing going. In
this rig, I
use an RO Associates brand 'Micro Verter', a DC-DC the size of a Vicor module,
or about
like a cigarette pack sliced 1/3 as thick, that from the 36V traction pack, can
make 17
whopping amps @ 14.5 stable volts. When the tractor is off, it floats the 13
ahr Hawker
12V system battery at 13.04V, then up-shifts to 14.5V on the nose with the key
on. This
keeps the Emeter and stereo memory going with the key off, something the 36V,
100 ahr
Orbital pack has no problem doing as long as I keep an eye on the pack's charge
by giving
the tractor occasional boost charges when I'm in my EV workshop. Like my street
car, the
tractor's twin headlights brighten up considerably when the key is switched on,
and the
stereo system delivers punchy bass as long as the DC-DC is filling up the
battery @ 17
amps between bass peaks :-) Like Blue Meanie, the tractor's 12V battery lasted
a very long
time, 8 years in fact. It only died, wen the 8 year old Optima Blue Tops
finally bit the
dust, the DC-DC shut down, and the 12V battery was sucked done to a few volts
by the
Emeter.
Other than having a DC-DC that cannot handle the fully charged pack voltage, I
can't
imagine why one would leave the small 12V system battery unaided and not use a
DC-DC with
a dual voltage profile.
Exception to my rule....White Zombie. With it's often long periods of time in
between
racing schedules and with my wife limiting my street driving in this thing (she
knows how
powerful it is), the DC-DC is left off line, and, the main 12V breaker is
switched off so
that there is no draw on the 12V battery. This car has an unusual DC-DC to high
voltage
pack relationship that's been hard to manage. With the car now at 348V, the
DC-DC will see
fully charged voltages as high as 430V, and yet, has to keep running when the
pack sags
down to ~200V under extreme drag racing loads...that's quite a voltage range to
contend
with! As this car is still being finalized, the current idea is to use a second
generation
Todd, a 30 amp model that used a voltage doubler circuit inside to convert 120
vac input
to 330V DC. Modified so that the DC input goes around the voltage doubler and
directly to
the caps, it runs great at the 348V level and with 450V caps inside, it should
handle the
fully charged voltage, too.
The problem, is that at the track when the hammer goes down, it will probably
brown out on
me when its input voltage goes low. With all the contactor action under the
hood and still
having to run lights for nighttime drag racing and all, this car needs at least
20 amps of
12V juice, better yet, the 30 amps this model gives. I'm considering using a
low input
voltage relay system that will simply disconnect the HV input from the DC-DC
when the
voltage falls below 285V or so and let the 12V Hawker keep things alive during
the 12
second EVent. This 'should' protect the DC-DC from damage, but it's far from
ideal. Of
course, if anyone has a lead on a DC-DC converter that is rated for the wide
input range
of 200V-450V @ a regulated and stable 14+V output @ 20-30 amps, I'm all ears!
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, I just did a discharge test of my first 10 cell block of BB600 cells.
(charged with my PFC-20)
I used my 1500W inverter powering a small heater and a Halogen work light.
I was using my Digial VOM to measure the voltage on a 150A shunt, and my
Fluke bench meter to do spot checks of cells. Partway through the test I
decided to check the shunt readings with my Fluke, and came up with a
significantly different reading from the VOM! So I'm reporting 2 possible
AH numbers....
Digital VOM Average about 84A For 36.3AH
Fluke Average about 105A For 45.3AH
The cells did get warm during the test.
The inverter starts complaining (loud beep) when the pack hits 11V, and
shuts down at about 10V. (which is just perfect!)
The cells started at about 1.17V under load, slowly dropped to about 1.12V,
then started dropping fast.
A couple minutes after the inverter shut down, all cells (including the
"dead" one) were back up to 1.21 to 1.23 volts (no load of course).
The cell monitor detected the one cell going low just fine! I just need to
figure out a better way to display a number 1-10 using 2 LED's....
I need to get some distilled water to bring them all up to "full". (Only a
couple are marginal on water level)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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