EV Digest 4474
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Netgain Vs ADC
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BB600 Cell Monitor test (and Cell test!)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: White Zombie Emergency Shut-down Device
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) The EVcort Lives!
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: White Zombie Emergency Shut-down Device
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Netgain Vs ADC
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: adapting MES motor (was: discontinued Siemens motors)
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) engine Generator question.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BB600's in an ELec-trak
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: engine Generator question.
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Hybrid engine/gen power needed Re: engine Generator question.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: engine Generator question. Re: Jerry
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Soon I will be making my final decision and buying a 9" motor for my project
car. From my reading the Netgain Warp 9 looks like it might be a better
motor for the price than the ADC 9". As it stands the Netgain is probably
the route I am taking with a Zilla 1K controller. The Netgain appears to
have larger brushes, dual shaft is standard and a friendlier company to deal
with. I got some rather "short" answers from ADC when I made my additional
inquiries. Don't really like their attitude or price fixing mentality.
They don't seem interested in talking to you if you are not a dealer.
Maybe I am wrong here, but first impressions are often accurate.
Feedback and comments appreciated!
Mark Ward
"Electrosaab"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need to get some distilled water to bring them all up to "full".
(Only a couple are marginal on water level)
I'd recommend charging them again. Every cell I had went almost to the
top water-wise on a second overcharge. If I had added water they would
have made a *serious* mess.
Chris
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Speaking of photo finish... do you happen to have a photo of the device?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks
This is something that confuses me... why would you
not use a charge controller and a dc to dc converter
to intelegently charge your 12 volt battery, including
setting the charge rates, the equilazation charge,
preventing over chargeing, and monitoring the battery
usage? It seems this would protect your investment,
improve reliability and prevent embarassing battery
failure!
I mentioned some solar charge controllers for
batteries in another post that do just that.
Tom
-----snip-----
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's) to the
traction pack only when the vehicle is turned "on"
(i.e. ready to drive)... The consequence has been a
way under-performing 12V battery... It's gotten worse
since I installed the e-meter... So every few weeks or
days, I go to drive off, and have a dead 12V system.
Others in the past have mentioned that leaving the 12V
battery
on this constant 13.6V (or so) charge is a terrible
charging scheme for it, which could result in a
shorter life.
13.6v is a "float" voltage; you can leave it on the
battery all the time, but it takes *days* to return to
full charge. Since you only drove 1000 miles in 6
months, the DC/DC's were off almost all the time; thus
the 12v battery never got charged.
If you're going to switch the DC/DC's on only while
driving, then they need to be adjusted for a higher
voltage, 14v or more. This is what they do in regular
cars, where the alternator delivers somewhere between
13.8v and 14.4v when running.
If your EV tends to be parked for weeks at a stretch,
then it's better to leave the DC/DC at 13.5v and leave
it on all the time. The float voltage is supposed to
be temperature compensated -- 13.2-13.8v depending on
temperature and battery type and age. Most DC/DCs are
not really chargers at all; just constant-voltage
power supplies that have no temperature compensation.
So, you'll have to adjust them manually.
Measure the input current being drawn by your DC/DCs
when the car is just sitting. You may find that the
propulsion pack is now being loaded at 20-50ma
continuously -- so instead of a dead/damaged 12v
battery after a few weeks, you'll have a dead/damaged
propulsion pack!
> I'd like to eventually ditch the 12V accessory
battery, and go with a sufficiently sized capacitor.
Does anyone have any suggestions for what to use?
The amount of capacitance needed depends on the peak
load on your 12v system. Worst-case is typically
occurs when you have everything turned on when you
switch on the key. The capacitance needs to be big
enough so
the voltage doesn't sag so low that your clock, radio,
trip odometers, E-meter and other electronic gadgets
don't lose their memory.
I used a 25,000uF 16vdc computer-grade electrolytic
with two Vicor 200w DC/DCs in my old ComutaVan. This
worked, but this was a vehicle with *no* 12v
electronics -- no clock, no radio, mechanical
odometer, etc.
--
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice crowd at Paul Scott's house last night. The Harriers drained the keg of
nut-brown ale that I brought. And Paul, the fireworks as seen through the
kaleidescope glasses were the absolute best. You rock.
You might remember I was having trouble breathing life into the EVcort.
Well, I have good news! The EVcort lives!
I had installed the new controller but all the lights on the console
remained unlit. I racked my smallish brain trying to figure out what was
wrong- suspecting all the while that it was something so incredibly stupid
and obvious as to completely evade detection.
Well, I was right.
This morning at 5AM I woke up and realized the charge cord was still plugged
into the charge inlet. As the car is backed into the garage and surrounded
by mucho crap, the inlet/former gas port is blocked and out of sight.
Did I mention there's a safety interlock on the charge inlet? You know, the
one that prevents you from turning the car "on" while it's plugged in? Doh!
I leaped out of bed, ran to the garage and yanked out the charge cable. When
I turned the key, all the lights came on. Ran around to the front and nudged
the accel pot a bit- front wheels spin and it makes that familiar controller
whine.
NICE!
Now all I have to do is remount the potbox, hook up the accel/regen cables,
and put the bumper back on. WooHoo!
We is back in bidness.
Today is a much better day than yesterday!
Have an excellent weekend EVerybody.
MarvyMarv
Culver City, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rush and All,
Rush wrote:
> John,
>
> Speaking of photo finish... do you happen to have a photo of the device?
Yes. I've been working with friends at Austin EV, as they're doing most of the
work on the
Plasma Boy Racing web page. I made it inaccessible for now, as it wasn't ready
for general
viewing. It should be back up again soon, once I have it where I feel it is
presentable.
When it's back up and running, go to the Media section, then to Photos, then to
White
Zombie, then to the pictures of all things related. I'll have a picture of the
device
included.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> With the car now at 348V, the DC-DC will see fully charged voltages
> as high as 430V, and yet, has to keep running when the pack sags
> down to ~200V under extreme drag racing loads...
> that's quite a voltage range to contend with!
Many DC/DC converters do a range of 2 or 3 times min to max input range,
only when you get over 5 times does the engineering become difficult.
(I have been working with a DC/DC that could take 9 - 60V input).
You only need to find an "international" version of a battery charger,
one that handles 110 and 220V AC without mechanical (switch) adjustment.
They are designed to take at least the range of 100 - 245V AC so they
should not brown out at 200V DC and handle at least 350V DC, you may
need to open it up and inspect the internal capacitor to see if they put
a 450V version in. (Also the semiconductors need to be able to handle this
so check the voltage rating on the rectifier (or remove it and key or
hardwire your input) and the switching transistor.
NOTE: the switching transistor needs to withstand at least 2x the DC voltage
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go with the Netgain Warp 9 motor. It is heaver duty than a ADC 9. It has a GE
commentator and larger GE brushes that may be silver-carbon type, just like the
ones in my GE motor in my El Camino.
I used it as a backup for my GE motor in the EV. In this country, MONTANA, I
do not used the S-10 standard manual transmission, as where there are too light
duty. There is a mountain of these here in a junk yard that everybody replaces
with a T-Warner, Muncie or Saginaw transmissions.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Ward<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Netgain Vs ADC
Soon I will be making my final decision and buying a 9" motor for my project
car. From my reading the Netgain Warp 9 looks like it might be a better
motor for the price than the ADC 9". As it stands the Netgain is probably
the route I am taking with a Zilla 1K controller. The Netgain appears to
have larger brushes, dual shaft is standard and a friendlier company to deal
with. I got some rather "short" answers from ADC when I made my additional
inquiries. Don't really like their attitude or price fixing mentality.
They don't seem interested in talking to you if you are not a dealer.
Maybe I am wrong here, but first impressions are often accurate.
Feedback and comments appreciated!
Mark Ward
"Electrosaab"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com<http://www.saabrina.blogspot.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only other way I see that you could avoid both the traction
and the 12V battery to get discharged is to use a charger that
is on a daily timer to replace at least the draw of every days
idle drain (it would also come on when the ignition is on).
This means that it only needs to be on for 10 or 20 minutes
each day to inject up to 5 or 10 Ah into the 12V battery
while the current draw is only 1% of the idle drain of the DC/DC.
This does not make sense if you can find a DC/DC with sufficient low
idle drain, then you better avoid having the timer and complexity.
NOTE that if you have the car plugged in while you are away then
a very small charger/battery tender will keep it alive.
This could be a permanent install as the additional power drain
from the AC input is insignificant and the unit small, light and cheap.
Less than 5A will even recharge a drained 12V during a single night.
Hey John - how do you modulate the DC output?
Does the charger have external voltage sensors that you trick with
the ignition on or did you change the guts of the Todd?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 9:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
Hello to All,
Ah yes, the old DC-DC dialog again. I've been very outspoken on this for
many years, and
have the proof to back up how my way of doing this, works great.
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I built a small logic circuit to connect the DC/DC's (twin 55 amp Iota's)
to the
> traction pack only when the vehicle is turned "on" (i.e. ready to
> drive). I did this to avoid having them on all the time, especially
> during charging. The consequence of this has been a way under-performing
12V
> battery....Keep in mind that when I
> don't have the key in the ignition and in the on position, the 12V
> battery is on its own.
>
> It's gotten worse since I installed the e-meter. It puts about a 20-50mA
load on
> the 12V system constantly. So every few weeks or days, I go to drive
> off, and have a dead 12V system.
Most all of my EVs past and present, use a dual voltage switching system
that keeps the
DC-DC on all the time and floats the 12V battery at ~ 13.2V, then up-shifts
to 14.2-14.5V
when the key is on. These EVs also have small parasitic draws, like the
aforementioned
Emeter, stereo system memory, alarm memory, etc. It's pretty hard to argue
with my
results....the first baby Optima YT, a 15 ahr small 12V battery used in Blue
Meanie,
lasted 7 l-o-n-g years under this system! When I say 'lasted', that means
the battery
would still run headlights, stereo system, etc. with the DC-DC temporarily
switched out of
circuit for the 12V battery test purpose, for an easy half hour run. With
the test over
and the DC-DC back on line, the way you can tell if the battery still is
doing its thing
of course, is if you can pull large current demands and not 'brown-out' the
12V system.
Blue Meanie's under-hood Todd converter goes from ~ 13.2V at float levels,
up to 14.5 or
so with the key on. This gives crisp, bright headlights (this car uses
classic Cibe'
headlight inserts for brilliant road coverage), swift acting wipers,
snapping turn
signals, hi velocity ventilation air, and of course, the max audio thrill
from its
multiple car amps. Speaking of the amps, a second rear mounted DC-DC that is
not running
most of the time, comes on line at 14.5V to keep a .5 Farad cap bank charged
up that feeds
the two rear subwoofer amps, and also feeds some of its juice to the main
12V system.
Even the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor has the dual voltage DC-DC thing going.
In this rig, I
use an RO Associates brand 'Micro Verter', a DC-DC the size of a Vicor
module, or about
like a cigarette pack sliced 1/3 as thick, that from the 36V traction pack,
can make 17
whopping amps @ 14.5 stable volts. When the tractor is off, it floats the 13
ahr Hawker
12V system battery at 13.04V, then up-shifts to 14.5V on the nose with the
key on. This
keeps the Emeter and stereo memory going with the key off, something the
36V, 100 ahr
Orbital pack has no problem doing as long as I keep an eye on the pack's
charge by giving
the tractor occasional boost charges when I'm in my EV workshop. Like my
street car, the
tractor's twin headlights brighten up considerably when the key is switched
on, and the
stereo system delivers punchy bass as long as the DC-DC is filling up the
battery @ 17
amps between bass peaks :-) Like Blue Meanie, the tractor's 12V battery
lasted a very long
time, 8 years in fact. It only died, wen the 8 year old Optima Blue Tops
finally bit the
dust, the DC-DC shut down, and the 12V battery was sucked done to a few
volts by the
Emeter.
Other than having a DC-DC that cannot handle the fully charged pack voltage,
I can't
imagine why one would leave the small 12V system battery unaided and not use
a DC-DC with
a dual voltage profile.
Exception to my rule....White Zombie. With it's often long periods of time
in between
racing schedules and with my wife limiting my street driving in this thing
(she knows how
powerful it is), the DC-DC is left off line, and, the main 12V breaker is
switched off so
that there is no draw on the 12V battery. This car has an unusual DC-DC to
high voltage
pack relationship that's been hard to manage. With the car now at 348V, the
DC-DC will see
fully charged voltages as high as 430V, and yet, has to keep running when
the pack sags
down to ~200V under extreme drag racing loads...that's quite a voltage range
to contend
with! As this car is still being finalized, the current idea is to use a
second generation
Todd, a 30 amp model that used a voltage doubler circuit inside to convert
120 vac input
to 330V DC. Modified so that the DC input goes around the voltage doubler
and directly to
the caps, it runs great at the 348V level and with 450V caps inside, it
should handle the
fully charged voltage, too.
The problem, is that at the track when the hammer goes down, it will
probably brown out on
me when its input voltage goes low. With all the contactor action under the
hood and still
having to run lights for nighttime drag racing and all, this car needs at
least 20 amps of
12V juice, better yet, the 30 amps this model gives. I'm considering using a
low input
voltage relay system that will simply disconnect the HV input from the DC-DC
when the
voltage falls below 285V or so and let the 12V Hawker keep things alive
during the 12
second EVent. This 'should' protect the DC-DC from damage, but it's far from
ideal. Of
course, if anyone has a lead on a DC-DC converter that is rated for the
wide input range
of 200V-450V @ a regulated and stable 14+V output @ 20-30 amps, I'm all
ears!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Philip, good idea! Thanks also Don for the reference to Cliff's
webpage on what he did with his Siemens female splines. Compliments to
Victor, Cliff, and Don for the great job all of you have done in thoroughly
documenting the respective trails you've blazed!
I've got one last question about adapting a MES motor in my particular
situation where I plan to keep a full clutch assembly with flywheel,
friction disc, and pressure plate. Is there any way to firmly secure and
anchor a male splined shaft inside a female splined motor?
Victor's heat treatment trick of expansion and then shrinking upon cool-down
will work for the situation of securing a female splined sleeve around a
male splined shaft. But I don't think that would work here with a male
splined shaft going into a female splined motor.
I can imagine that there might be a tiny bit of longitudinal play of the
male splined shaft inside the female spline of the motor. So the flywheel
would not be firmly secured to the motor but would in effect be floating on
the longitudinal axis with the motor. I'm not sure that's such a good thing
to have with the flywheel spinning around at 5000+ RPM.
Any thoughts/ideas on that?
Thanks,
Charles
Philip Marino wrote:
apparently now the case with the 5133 motor.
The big question I've got with the MES motor is regarding its lack of a
shaft, having that female internal spline, and whether there would be any
issues or problems in adapting that to my tranny. Anyone have any
thoughts
on that? Victor, Don? Shari, Mike?
I assume that I would need to have machined a small custom shaft which
would
be splined on one end (the end that goes into the motor) and smooth keyed
on
the other end (the end that sticks out of the motor), and then Shari and
Mike could take it from there and do their thing. Is that right?
If you do it that way, you'll have (starting at the motor):
1. The custom splined shaft
2. A taper lock bushing that fits on the keyed end of your splined shaft
3. A hub, custom made to fit your flywheel.
Why not have it all made as one part? . It would have the external spline
on one end, and a flange that fit your flywheel on the other ( and, if
necessary, an internal bore for a pilot bearing.)
That would be lighter in weight, probably shorter overall ( which means
less adapter thickness and less adapter weight), and probably cheaper.
Phil
Don Cameron wrote:
Charles,
I am interested in MES motors for my next project as well. I have yet to
investigate mating options, but I was thinking that metric splines might
be
more available in europe for the MES motor. Maybe even european vehicles
use the same spline on axles (VW, Fiat, etc?). For my Siemens metric male
spline I had a quite expensive set up custom made in Vancouver, and I do
not
want to go through the expense again. For the next project I will do a
lot
of looking around for the A20x17 DIN 5482 male spline, before having
something custom manufactured.
You may also want to look at what Cliff did for his Siemens female splines
at http://www.proev.com/WHistPgs/Hist0018.htm
I took a brief look at electro auto at the 914 conversion page, but did
not
see what their adapter looked like. But it sounds like you are on the
right
track: male spline from motor, smooth shaft mated to 914 input shaft.
You
may also be able to use their ADC motor mount as well (with some
modification).
Contact your local machinist who has done engine mating work - they are
usually a great resource for this kind of thing.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: July 1, 2005 2:25 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: adapting MES motor (was: discontinued Siemens motors)
Don and Victor,
Thanks for the advice and feedback, which is helping me to work through
all
of these issues myself as well. Based on all of this and upon further
reflection and analysis, I can see that I really do want to keep (and use)
the gearshift, clutch, and transmission in the 914 for all of the
flexibility, advantages, and efficiency that will provide in my particular
application (which includes long-range highway driving).
After reviewing Victor's well documented account of his own conversion
process, I went and checked out Fidanza's and ClutchNet's websites.
Strangely enough, Fidanza offers lighweight aluminum flywheels only for
'70-'72 model year 914s but not for '73-'76 (mine is a '76). But it looks
like I can get everything I need for my '76 914 in one-stop shopping at
ClutchNet, namely a lightweight aluminum flywheel and high-performance
pressure plate and friction disc.
However, I don't think Steve and I are going to solve our other problem
(unrelated to motor/tranny issues but which nevertheless is holding up the
entire project) in time for me to get that last Siemens 5133 motor before
someone else grabs it. Therefore, I am changing gears (so to speak, no
pun
intended) and starting to focus on the MES motor and reorient my plans
towards it rather than the Siemens. Aside from the fact that MES only
offers a measly one-year warranty (which seems strange for a Swiss
company)
in contrast to Siemens' 10-year warranty, I would think it might actually
be
better to buy from a company that has a continuous production line going
rather than one that only does a batch production run once every 5 years
or
so depending on if and when it gets a sufficiently large order (> ~100
units) from an OEM. Not that there are very many parts that can wear out
or
fail in these relatively bulletproof AC induction motors and
inverter/controllers, but with MES at least there is the peace-of-mind
factor of knowing that the motor & controller I bought are still in active
production. I mean, you know, well sure, Siemens has a 10-year warranty,
but one has to wonder how they're going to honor, service, and support
that
warranty (if any customer ever needs it) when their surplus over-stock is
all used up, as is apparently now the case with the 5133 motor.
The big question I've got with the MES motor is regarding its lack of a
shaft, having that female internal spline, and whether there would be any
issues or problems in adapting that to my tranny. Anyone have any
thoughts
on that? Victor, Don? Shari, Mike?
I assume that I would need to have machined a small custom shaft which
would
be splined on one end (the end that goes into the motor) and smooth keyed
on
the other end (the end that sticks out of the motor), and then Shari and
Mike could take it from there and do their thing. Is that right?
Of course the 18 kW Siemens 5105 (the surplus over-stock of which is
apparently now also depleted) is also shaftless with a female internal
spline, and I gather that there have been a few conversions with it, so I
guess people must have dealt with this particular issue, right?
Thanks,
Charles
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Charles Whalen wrote:
Victor (and all),
...
But my application
is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed
highway driving.
IF you also want very zippy performance, you're better off staying with
at least 2 speed transmission.
This means you wouldn't want to use MES gear box. Single gear is OK for
up to about 60-70 km/h common in Europe.
I can use single (2nd) gear only in ACRX, but find using first in some
situations is preferred(see faq on my site).
There is no need to limit the motor to 5600 RPM, but using it at 9000 RPM
and only first gear is not a good idea either, because of very high
losses in the gear box - it will get real hot (aside the flywheel problem
which are solvable with small aluminum one).
I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure where
they're located)
Comex/Carraro boxes are made in Italy for MES-DEA. they deal with OEMs
only; there is no direct contact I know of. You're certainly welcome to
try.
to ask if there are other gear options with different ratios that they
can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox that mates to
the MES motor.
The options are listed on my site, also see downloadable PDF docs.
Don't forget, to some degree you can vary overall ratio by selecting a
tire size.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Don Cameron wrote:
Charles, I am working through the same issues with my new project. You
will
find that without a transaxle, or a custom gearbox you will be hard
pressed
to find anything in the 5:1 to 7:1 range. One thing you may consider is
getting a lightweight flywheel (which can handle higher RPMs), or getting
rid of the flywheel and the clutch all together. That is what I did with
my
New Beetle project. I only shift it when it is stopped (although bold
people will shift on the fly). Most of the time it is in second gear for
around town use. Occasionally when I go on the highway, I just start off
in
third. Not having a clutch has negative sides as well, but since you are
looking at fixed gear anyways...
I noticed on Rod's Discovery channel program he is using belts to drive
the
motors, and this can give you the ratio you want with some fabrication.
I know Victor has a line on some 2:1 reducers and a two speed transaxle,
it
may work for your application.
Good luck, keep us informed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: June 29, 2005 7:50 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: discontinued Siemens motors
Victor (and all),
Thanks for the update and clarification on the last 5133 currently
available
and the possibility that there might be more available again at some
point
in the future at some price yet to be determined.
Steve and I are currently grappling with a particularly gnarly and nasty
engineering challenge (unrelated to the issue of motor selection) that
has
slowed us up and is holding up further progress on the project until
we're
able to solve it, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else grabs that
last
5133 before I do.
But on the issue of motor selection and what had been my plans to go with
the Siemens 5133 (that is, until I just read on your website a few days
ago
about it no longer being available), with the advice and input of a few
other EVers, I had been looking into and discussing some of the
challenges
of adapting the 5133 with its long splined shaft to my 914's existing
transmission. These discussions included things like possibly machining
an
additional bearing to support the 5133's long shaft as well as
programming
the Simovert to limit the 5133's RPM to a maximum of 5600 (which is my
existing redline on the tach) so as to keep the tranny within its
original
design specs and try to avoid the unfortunate fate that has befallen
others
where a heavy flywheel spinning at 7-9000 RPM ends up bending that long
shaft. I had deemed this to be an acceptable solution since the maximum
operating efficiency point of the Siemens motors appears to in the 5-6000
RPM range (at around 88% efficiency). So using a 5500 RPM shift point
would
let me drive in 2nd gear in town up to 46 mph and then shift up to 3rd
above
that for highway driving up to 69 mph, and for those rare occasions where
I
might need or want to briefly exceed 69 mph, I'd go up to 4th gear.
That's all well and good, although it does involve a bit of complexity.
However, in just the last two days that I have started to explore the MES
options (after finding out about the lack of availability of the Siemens
5133), I have started to realize and focus on the advantages of weight
and
simplicity of going with the MES drive. The MES motor and inverter are a
fair bit lighter than comparable Siemens of the same power rating, and
with
the MES I can get rid of the 914's heavy tranny and use the lightweight
Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox, plus there are none of those
aforementioned adaptor challenges or having to think about shifting gears
and all of that. The simplicity is very appealing (KISS) and would seem
to
present a fairly robust drivetrain. Some have advocated going in this
direction by pointing out to me that almost every single OEM EV ever made
has used a single-gear reduction gearbox.
The only problem here is the inevitable trade-off and choice that must be
made between optimizing more for city driving or alternatively for
high-speed highway driving. When I run the numbers for my 914, it
appears
to me that the 8.64:1 gear in the Carraro reduction gearbox has been
optimized more towards lower speed city driving. I guess that probably
makes sense for the primary application for this MES drivetrain over in
Europe, where I believe it is mostly being used in (OEM) tiny little
city-cars for urban driving, like the Smart EV, I think. But my
application
is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed
highway
driving. Just doing a rough, quick-and-dirty calculation, it looks like
maybe a 7:1 gear ratio would probably work better for me in that regard.
So
I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure where
they're located) to ask if there are other gear options with different
ratios that they can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox
that mates to the MES motor.
Any thoughts on that, Victor or anyone else?
Thanks,
Charles
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Charles (and all),
One last 5133 motor will be available with either short Simovert 6-SV1
or
Simotion inverter. Whom ever grabs it first. They probably will be
available in some future, but the cost is unknown. This one still goes
at
surplus price (brand new motor and inverter of course).
Charles Whalen wrote:
Just checking Victor's website (http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm), I
noticed that some of the Siemens motors at the lower end of the power
scale have been discontinued, including the 18kW (cont.) 5105 and the
30kW
(cont.)
5133, the latter of which is apparently no longer available for
individual purchase in single quantities. It seems that Siemens must
not have been getting enough orders for the 5133 to keep up their
production line on it, as they will now only make a special order
production run of the 5133 motor for large quantity bulk purchases of
50-200 units. That's a bummer for me as the 5133 was my preferred
choice for my 914 conversion. The 45kW
(cont.)
Siemens 5135 (which apparently *is* still available) is a bit
overpowered and heavy for my particular application.
Does Victor or anyone over there in Europe know what's going on with
Siemens? Are they getting out of the motor business at the lower end
of
the power scale (as it doesn't look like they are replacing these
discontinued motors with any newer models, from what I can tell from
Victor's website)?
I guess I'll have to look into the MES motors, although I don't believe
anyone over here in the States has done a conversion with them, at
least
not that I can see on the EV Album. So that's a pretty big unknown as
far as the lack of any empirical record; no one to ask about their
experience with MES motors, although I heard that they are being used
in
some limited production OEM EVs in Europe.
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hey John - how do you modulate the DC output?
> Does the charger have external voltage sensors that you trick with
> the ignition on or did you change the guts of the Todd?
>
The earliest Todds have an external screw terminal where you can attach wires
to a switch
or relay. In my case, I've always used a relay that goes on when the key switch
is
energized. The later model Todds use the telephone style RJ type connector to
allow for
the same control. Both Todds have a circuit board pot that can be adjusted to
trim the
voltage, affecting both both low and high volt modes.
The Micro Verter module I use in the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor has a
selectable external
resistor control over it's regulated output that I configured to go from 13.04V
to 14.5V.
It can be varied to any configuration within reason, so I could of done, say
13.45V and
14.1V, if I had wanted to. The 13.04V seems perfect for keeping the small
Hawker AGM alive
but not excessively over-charged, and the 14.5 volt setting makes for a strong
12V system
that keeps the Hawker on top of its game. Keeping the Hawker at a hot 14.5V is
good,
because with my tractor's stout sound system with its 120 watt rms sub amp
looking for 20
amps or so on big bass peaks, the Micro Verter can't really do it all. When the
amp pulls
hard, the 14.5V does sag down where the Hawker gets to dig in and help out, but
it only
goes to about 13V or so, then bounces right back. In this way, the battery gets
exercised,
so that's actually good. In a road going EV, big 12V sags are more noticeable
and not
desirable, so a properly sized DC-DC is important...goofy garden tractor, no
big deal.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Engine/generators can be made very efficient because the engine runs at its
most efficient speed.
Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the batteries
with an ICE/generator,
Is there anything out there that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1
gallon per hour?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a quick note:
1) 30 BB600's fit nicely in the back weight box of an Elec-trak
2) A single string can easily handle the trac's everything-ing.
Even at a brief 200 amp discharge rate the cell voltage was above 1vpc,
and that's with 10gauge interconnects. And with the cells down 28ah.
Even with the existing T105's left in the tractor as ballast.
3) The Elec-trak's charger seems to do well with these. It can charge at
18amps right up to 1.45 volts per cell, then tapers down quickly to
2amps by 45 volts. According to the E-meter, a perfect charge (net zero ah).
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An eCycle double stack (MG2 series) brushless DC motor/generator (about 25
pounds and 8 inches square by 5 inches long) and a 3-phase bridge, will
produce 10KW. You would need to turn it with an engine of at least 16HP.
To get near 1 gallon/hour from an industrial/utility engine, I think it
would have to be a Diesel. Otherwise use something efficient like a Honda
Insight engine. Either of those engine approaches would likely be too heavy
for your 1000 pound EV.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: engine Generator question.
Engine/generators can be made very efficient because the engine runs at
its
most efficient speed.
Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the batteries
with an ICE/generator,
Is there anything out there that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1
gallon per hour?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stu and All,
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Engine/generators can be made very efficient because
> the engine runs at its
> most efficient speed.
>
>
>
> Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to
> augment the batteries
> with an ICE/generator,
>
>
>
> Is there anything out there that would generate 10KW
> and burn less than 1
> gallon per hour?
An eff small gas engine can get about
.4lbs/hp-hr. Many small engines are not eff. Be picky.
A good diesel can get .35lbs/hp-hr.
A gal of gas/diesel is about 6-7lbs depending on
the blend it was made from.
A generator is about 80-90% eff.
A hp = 746watts or .75kw at 100% eff. x gen eff
But 10kw is enough for a 2500lb aero EV. For a
1,000lb aero EV you need about 5-6kw.
If not aero or want to go faster the 65mph steady,
then you need more power. More batt pack range, less
power needed.
So yes, you can get 10kwhr+ from 1 gal gas.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An eff small gas engine can get about
.4lbs/hp-hr. Many small engines are not eff. Be picky.
Does picky = Honda? Or ______??
A good diesel can get .35lbs/hp-hr.
.4 vs .35 makes me lean to the lighter gas engine. Also in Florida, diesel
tax is more than twice gas tax.
A gal of gas/diesel is about 6-7lbs depending on
the blend it was made from.
I knew about 'lite' beer by I never knew about 'light' gas. Thanks. I will
remember 7 as the higher number.
A generator is about 80-90% eff.
What kind of generator do you recommend? How much do they weigh compared to
a 10KW motor?
Comment please on generator vs alternator.
Also, what is the fuel consumption of an ICE/GEN at no load?
A hp = 746watts or .75kw at 100% eff. x gen eff
Is you point here, that you need extra hp to make up for the GEN loss in
order to obtain the required output?
But 10kw is enough for a 2500lb aero EV. For a
1,000lb aero EV you need about 5-6kw.
I guess that a Geo Metro would come in at about 2,000 lb or 10Kw.
Again and again, your concept of lightweight and aero wins.
My dream is 1,000 to 1,500 lb.
If not aero or want to go faster the 65mph steady, then you need more
power.
IMHO 65 is fine.
More batt pack range, less power needed.
Is this because the motor enhances the ICE/GEN?
So yes, you can get 10kwhr+ from 1 gal gas.
If you could not, running an ICE/GEN would be uneconomical.
A Toyota or a Honda hybrid can get more than 10KWR from a gallon of gas.
If they didn't they could not achieve 50 MPG at 50 MPH.
wonder how they manage it and what they could do with a measly 10KW?
Thanks again for you valuable input.
BoyntonStu
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: Netgain Vs ADC
> Soon I will be making my final decision and buying a 9" motor for my
project
> car. From my reading the Netgain Warp 9 looks like it might be a better
> motor for the price than the ADC 9". As it stands the Netgain is
probably
> the route I am taking with a Zilla 1K controller. The Netgain appears to
> have larger brushes, dual shaft is standard and a friendlier company to
deal
> with.
Hi Mark;
Yup! YA got that right. Us Netgain guyz ARE EVer's ,we use and believe
in the Product. EVen in the design and ideas to the Good Folks at Warfield
who make the motors. My happy experiance with Warfield Electric, I found
them on line about 5 years or more ago, with my grounded armature ADC 9".
TRIED to deal with ADC, but they didn't want to hear about my problems.
"Cheaper to buy a new Motor" You TOOK IT APART! Voided the warranty, right
there.!!No Motor shop here in CT wanted to get involved for under thousands
of bux. Phooey! Called Warfield's .Got Jerry Warfield on the line! How's
THAT for service? Chatted for better part of an hour, he said " Ship it out
to us, cost about300 bux to rewind armature, replace cooling fan that I
busted, do it in about 3 days" DAYS! Yup, I heard right, boxed it up and
UPS'ed it on its way. Jerry was interested in EV's and I said that we EVer's
needed a receptive source of motors. The rest is history, they hooked up
with Geo. Hamstra at Netgain, a deal was struck, and we DO have a new and
better source of motors. I have made my pilgrimage to The Factory, twice,
never fail to see the beauty and artestry of DC motors being built, by nice
,english speaking folks, in the USA, Frankfort Illinois! Hear my American
Flag waving?Yes, heartwarming, they can handle any problem with the motor,
they build them right there. Bigger brushes, bearings, heavier inter
connects, all the stuff guyz like our own John Wayland suggests. If any of
you other users have any ideas, were all ears. OK disclaimer here ,I am a
dealer, now. So if I sound a bit Rah Rah for Warfield, Warp motor, now ya
know the rest of the story.I'm still running that Warfield/ ADC rebuilt
motor 70k later. I'm plugging THE Motor, because I believe. Hell, they are
cheaper than ADC's, and we stand behind EVery one, as fellow EVers.Iron and
Copper wound gaurantee<g>! Coming soon; a 8" with a 9's power, good stuff in
the pipeline.
Yes! Get A Zilla, built by another famous EVer Otmar, he build the best
controllers on the planet. Race tested, we ALL know that.
Batteries? Well yur on your own, I have had the best luck with Trojan
Floodies, If you can handle, or the CAR can , that much weight? Optimas? Or
the Exide answer to the Optimas, sealed, nice, no @#$% watering, cleaner.
I got some rather "short" answers from ADC when I made my additional
> inquiries. Don't really like their attitude or price fixing mentality.
> They don't seem interested in talking to you if you are not a dealer.
>
> Maybe I am wrong here, but first impressions are often accurate.
>
> Feedback and comments appreciated!
> Mark, that's what we are here for. Nobody should be doing EV's
un -Listed. Friends don't let friends, and all that. We wanna see Saabrina
up an' going, She gets on the EV Albun, with you standing by her side EV
grin showing.
Seeya at Woodburn
Bob
--- End Message ---
