EV Digest 4475
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electrothon bubble
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DC/DC...so much for being smart
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) E-Bike 36v 10ah Li-Po Battery Pack UK test purchase.
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: E-Bike 36v 10ah Li-Po Battery Pack UK test purchase.
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Rules of thumb for engine, Generator Eff question. Re: Jerry
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Why Diesel costs more than gas in Florida
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Engine Generator Question
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Engine Generator Question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Idea for a high current interrupr device
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: engine Generator question.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: engine Generator question. Re: Jerry
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) OT Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Engine Generator Question
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Idea for a high current interrupr device
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Idea for a high current interrupr device
by Duncan Orthner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) DCP electronics in closed space?
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Almost Submerged the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Watson wrote:
>
> Hi folks
> This is something that confuses me... why would you
> not use a charge controller and a dc to dc converter
> to intelegently charge your 12 volt battery, including
> setting the charge rates, the equilazation charge,
> preventing over chargeing, and monitoring the battery
> usage? It seems this would protect your investment,
> improve reliability and prevent embarassing battery
> failure!
You should... but nobody does. We know that batteries last longer with a
good charger, and that improper charging shortens their life. Yet, we
blindly use constant-voltage power supplies for the 12v accessory
battery.
I think it's because a) that's what ordinary cars do, and b) people care
more about a "constant" voltage to run their lights, wipers and radio
(so they don't flicker, change speed, or change volume) than they do
about its long-term effect on the battery.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back when I was a model maker for Point of purchase displays, we made clear
plexiglass prototypes using a Pizza oven and letting the plexi get to a sag
temperature and then draping it over a form. The form could be any shape,
usually it was a cylindrical shape, and was covered in felt. We had a precise
form to make and letting it sag down as in the hpv method was not exact enough.
If the plexi was the right temp, it would be clear, but if it was too hot it
would sometimes take the texture of the felt. We would clamp the ends down so
the plexi would not spring back upon cooling.
Just another possible way of fabrication.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: Electrothon bubble
> http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm
>
> I found an article!
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
David Dymaxion wrote:
Thanks Nick for the details and pictures.
No Problem! I try to get lots of photos of my projects/progress because,
well..., a picture is worth a thousand words (or so they say). ;-)
But seriously, I try my best to get lots of good photos and info up and
organized on my website, in an attempt to completely document my Jeep EV
conversion (and those to come). When I was first looking into building
an EV, I visited many websites. Most of the ones I found at the time
were either unfinished, extremely outdated, or very hard to
read/navigate due to poor organization/design, broken links, etc.. and
thus were discouraging. But luckily I did find some good sites as well,
which were very informative and helped inspire me, like Jerry Halstead's
site and Ken Norwick's site for example. My hope is that I can give back
to others (i.e. potential EV converters) in this way through DriveEV.com
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
My Jeep is (mostly) all put back together and is running again! Chris
(of AustinEV) came down to San Antonio yesterday and we spent the
greater part of the day working on my Jeep.
First job was to install the new motor bearings. This was surprisingly
easy. The only special tools we ended up needing were a piece of 1.25"
steel pipe and a deep 15/16" socket to drive on the main and commutator
end bearings respectively. I'd say the hardest part of the whole
procedure was getting that #$%@ snap ring back in place. It only took me
6 tries with needle nose pliers (aka. the wrong tool for the job). ;-)
Once we had the motor reassembled we spun it up off a 12-volt battery
for awhile, and did it sound great! As you recall from my previous post,
I had installed my new transmission and transfer case already, so Chris
and I got right to work re-installing the motor and all the other stuff
that came out of the Jeep's motor compartment.
By the early hour of 11:00pm, we had everything reinstalled (motor,
torque rod, battery racks, the front 8 batteries, Zilla, etc..) and were
ready to go for a spin. So I get in, turn the Jeep on, and am greeted by
a horrible loud, grinding, really unhappy sound from my vacuum pump. I
was anxious to drive EV already, and was ready to just unplug the vacuum
pump and take the short drive sans power brakes. Chris gave me the "no
way in hell" look and convinced me otherwise. Meanwhile I had made the
realization that I tightened the rear mounting bolt of my vacuum pump
tighter than usual, and that must've been the problem. (The rear,
threaded mounting hole on the bottom of my Gast vacuum pump apparently
goes straight through to the spinning insides of the pump (go figure).
So if you use too long of a screw, well...
Of course, nothing is easy, and to get to the mounting bolts of my
vacuum pump meant disconnecting most of the front battery cables and
removing batteries #3 and #4. We then removed the stupid rear mounting
bolt for the pump, put the batteries back in and hooked them up.
Finally, we went driving. Right off I noticed that two of my problems
have been solved thanks to the new transmission/ transfer-case! First,
the _loud_ whining/whirring sound is gone. The new units are _quiet_,
and my Jeep no longer sounds like a mini jet engine at higher motor
RPMs! Second, the Jeep no longer lurches from a stop like it had begun
doing with the old transmission. Now the take-offs are very smooth and
powerful (thanks to the Zilla). I haven't driven enough yet to see what
impacts the new transmission/transfer case will have on the
range/efficiency numbers...
One thing I have to do for sure is get my tachometer working again. The
new transmission has different gear ratios than my old one, so I don't
know what my shift points are anymore. I have a hall-effect sensor here
that should work, but have yet to find a safe, yet affordable way to
hold two magnets to my motor's tail shaft?
P.S. I hope to have new pictures up tomorrow. Also, I want to again say
thanks to Chris for his excellent assistance and willingness to put up
with me and my EV-related antics, and everyone here who has given me
loads of excellent advice!
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:06:37 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks
>> This is something that confuses me... why would you
>> not use a charge controller and a dc to dc converter
>> to intelegently charge your 12 volt battery, including
>> setting the charge rates, the equilazation charge,
>> preventing over chargeing, and monitoring the battery
>> usage? It seems this would protect your investment,
>> improve reliability and prevent embarassing battery
>> failure!
>
>You should... but nobody does. We know that batteries last longer with a
>good charger, and that improper charging shortens their life. Yet, we
>blindly use constant-voltage power supplies for the 12v accessory
>battery.
>
>I think it's because a) that's what ordinary cars do, and b) people care
>more about a "constant" voltage to run their lights, wipers and radio
>(so they don't flicker, change speed, or change volume) than they do
>about its long-term effect on the battery.
and c) because it works well enough as long as the depth of discharge
is kept low, as with a conventional car.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Group Members
I own a 36v 500w Heinzmann based e-bike. I am after some more range, and I
have been in contact with the Chinese Company "www.splendidbattery.com"
through whom I have negotiated the potential purchase of 4x36v 10ah Li-Po
packs and 4 li-po chargers.
Now I only need 2 packs and two chargers, which means I will have two spare.
So I am posting here to see if anyone in UK wishes to join me in this bulk
purchase. Delivery cost from China is the same for 4 as for 2 packs, so I
intend to purchase 4.
The total cost quoted on 11/05/05 is $1490 inc delivery to my address in the
UK. Divide that by four to get $372.50 per unit (1 pack and 1 charger) or
£211 approx.
Now that is a good price, and I am prepared to give it a go. But I would
like two others to join me.
Now a certain element of trust creeps in. I will require payment upfront.
To satisfy yourself about me, here are two items for you to check.
My EV page at www.solarvan.co.uk and my ebay username "peterperkins"
I am happy to discuss this further on MSN Messenger/e-mail/telephone with
interested UK parties.
e-mail me your details to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I do not want to waste my time, so please only contact me if you are serious
about joining. First come first served!
Regards
Peter Perkins
PS here are some tech specs sent to me by the factory.
1) Cycle life of cells/pack to 80% depth of discharge? -----more than 600
cycles.
>
>2) Weight of ev bike pack?----2Kg
>
>3) Guarantee?----6 month.
>
>4) How does the charger balance the cells? To avoid overcharging any?
***The BMS will balance the cells during the charging and discharging.
Now we make the 36V/10Ah
>>battery
>pack
>>from 40Pcs 3.7V/2.5Ah single cell.
>>The step is as follows:
>>(1): 4 Pcs 2.5Ah cells made into 3.7V/10Ah mini pack by parallel.
>>(2): 10 Pcs mini pack 3.7V/10Ah connected in series into 36V/10Ah
>>battery pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi peter
i just bought a 20ah li pack from dale at dlm energy
in austrailia for my numerous heinzman bikes
email me off line if you want a photo so you can see
if it's from the same chineese supplier
if it's the same set of prismatic cells with built in
bms i'll have another one to try out
regards
richard
--- Peter Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Dear Group Members
>
> I own a 36v 500w Heinzmann based e-bike. I am after
> some more range, and I
> have been in contact with the Chinese Company
> "www.splendidbattery.com"
> through whom I have negotiated the potential
> purchase of 4x36v 10ah Li-Po
> packs and 4 li-po chargers.
>
> Now I only need 2 packs and two chargers, which
> means I will have two spare.
>
>
> So I am posting here to see if anyone in UK wishes
> to join me in this bulk
> purchase. Delivery cost from China is the same for 4
> as for 2 packs, so I
> intend to purchase 4.
>
> The total cost quoted on 11/05/05 is $1490 inc
> delivery to my address in the
> UK. Divide that by four to get $372.50 per unit (1
> pack and 1 charger) or
> £211 approx.
>
> Now that is a good price, and I am prepared to give
> it a go. But I would
> like two others to join me.
>
> Now a certain element of trust creeps in. I will
> require payment upfront.
>
> To satisfy yourself about me, here are two items for
> you to check.
>
> My EV page at www.solarvan.co.uk and my ebay
> username "peterperkins"
>
> I am happy to discuss this further on MSN
> Messenger/e-mail/telephone with
> interested UK parties.
>
> e-mail me your details to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> I do not want to waste my time, so please only
> contact me if you are serious
> about joining. First come first served!
>
> Regards
>
> Peter Perkins
>
> PS here are some tech specs sent to me by the
> factory.
>
> 1) Cycle life of cells/pack to 80% depth of
> discharge? -----more than 600
> cycles.
> >
> >2) Weight of ev bike pack?----2Kg
> >
> >3) Guarantee?----6 month.
> >
> >4) How does the charger balance the cells? To avoid
> overcharging any?
> ***The BMS will balance the cells during the
> charging and discharging.
>
> Now we make the 36V/10Ah
> >>battery
> >pack
> >>from 40Pcs 3.7V/2.5Ah single cell.
> >>The step is as follows:
> >>(1): 4 Pcs 2.5Ah cells made into 3.7V/10Ah mini
> pack by parallel.
> >>(2): 10 Pcs mini pack 3.7V/10Ah connected in
> series into 36V/10Ah
> >>battery pack.
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stu and All,
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> An eff small gas engine can get about
> .4lbs/hp-hr. Many small engines are not eff. Be
> picky.
>
> Does picky = Honda? Or ______??
>
Best probably would be a small water cooled MC, 4
stoke snowmobile engine.
Next an industural engine with OHV, higher
compression, a good carb and ign advanced.
The engine should be just big enough for the power
at the rpm you need. Any more wastes fuel, adds
weight.
A Mukini carb is very good correctly adjusted,
electronic ign as one can buy cheaply for most any
industural motor and hopely give it advance, remove
the head gasket and/or shave the head.
But a MC, SM already has these usually and usually
lighter, higher reving for direct drive of the gen.
>
>
> A good diesel can get .35lbs/hp-hr.
>
> .4 vs .35 makes me lean to the lighter gas engine.
> Also in Florida, diesel
> tax is more than twice gas tax.
>
Didn't know that, thanks. But I'd only get a
diesel if I was going to use used veg oil to fuel it.
I'm hoping the new ethano plant they are
threatening to open here in Tampa does as I will
swicth to that. Any racing go cart shop can modify
small engines for it as they do methanol ones all the
time.
>
>
> A gal of gas/diesel is about 6-7lbs depending on
> the blend it was made from.
>
> I knew about 'lite' beer by I never knew about
> 'light' gas. Thanks. I will
> remember 7 as the higher number.
>
> A generator is about 80-90% eff.
> What kind of generator do you recommend? How much
> do they weigh compared to
> a 10KW motor?
Depends on voltage, amps, rpm, ect. Larger dia and
PM are usually the most eff but you must get the exact
rpm to make them work. E-teks are very eff but limited
to the voltage they can make. 2-3 could be put in
series for more.
Shunt would are the next best at about 80-83% eff
in these sizes like a 6.7" with shunt fields instead
of series fields.
Both can be used to motor the ICE for starting
thus can leave the ICE ign for eff well advanced
without starting problems.
If you use shunt, PM or AC drive motors you can
connect the ICE to the driveline to the drive wheel
and regen power back to the batts though no charging
when idling, stopped, parked. Clutch costs, pains,
part load ineff too. But an option for highway
cruising.
>
> Comment please on generator vs alternator.
Car alts are not eff but besides that, not much
difference. You need 3 phase to charge batts eff,
single ph does not work well and burns up.
>
> Also, what is the fuel consumption of an ICE/GEN at
> no load?
>
>
> A hp = 746watts or .75kw at 100% eff. x gen eff
> Is your point here, that you need extra hp to make
up
> for the GEN loss in
> order to obtain the required output?
>
> But 10kw is enough for a 2500lb aero EV. For a
> 1,000lb aero EV you need about 5-6kw.
>
> I guess that a Geo Metro would come in at about
> 2,000 lb or 10Kw.
> Again and again, your concept of lightweight and
> aero wins.
> My dream is 1,000 to 1,500 lb.
Your dream then requires you to build your own
most likely or do a light kit car.
>
> If not aero or want to go faster the 65mph
> steady, then you need more
> power.
>
> IMHO 65 is fine.
>
>
> More batt pack range, less power needed.
> Is this because the motor enhances the ICE/GEN?
Since it has more reserve power, you are more
likely to go slow at some time because of traffic or
just need to stretch, eat, refill the gas tank before
it depletes giving the gen time to catch up though
smaller.
I tend to stop every 2-4 hrs anyway to move around
a bit to stay awake, relieve sitting soreness, rest
eyes from concentrating on the road so I can use a
smaller gen than others would.
>
> So yes, you can get 10kwhr+ from 1 gal gas.
>
>
> If you could not, running an ICE/GEN would be
> uneconomical.
True but it is. A well done diesel will get up to
17-18kwhr/gal with an eff gen.
Since a good aero 1500lb EV gets 65mph on about
6-7kw, mileage is quite good, well over 100mpg with
gen use. YMMV
>
> A Toyota or a Honda hybrid can get more than 10KWR
> from a gallon of gas.
> If they didn't they could not achieve 50 MPG at 50
> MPH.
> wonder how they manage it and what they could do
> with a measly 10KW?
With a 60 mile range batt pack, about 50% better
mileage not including the extra mileage from plugging
the pack in.
And think of the complication, cost saving of
series gen plus 1 cylinder motor and they would about
double their gas mileage the few times they needed gas
;-))
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
> Thanks again for you valuable input.
>
> BoyntonStu
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The statewide excise tax is 14.5 cents per gallon for gasoline and
27.2 cpg for diesel. The 14.5 cents represents 10.5 cpg sales tax
plus 4 cpg excise tax. Gasoline tax rate increased .2 cpg on 1/1/05.
Tax rate changes annually based on CPI. Does not include 2.2-cpg
tax/fee for environmental inspection purposes (5 cents per barrel
tax for the Water Quality Assurance Trust Fund, 80 cents per barrel
for the Inland Protection Trust Fund, 2 cents per barrel for the
Coastal Protection Trust Fund and 1/8 cents per gallon for weights
and measures inspection fee). Gasoline rate also does not include
additional minimum 9.9 to 17.8 cent per gallon local option tax
portion with the weighted average of 14.6 cents per gallon.
Therefore, depending on where you live in Florida, your overall
gasoline tax can vary from an average of 52.9 cents per gallon to 45
cents per gallon.
.50/2.25 = 22% in taxes, for gas
.63/2.35 = 27% in taxes for Diesel
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark;
Yup! YA got that right. Us Netgain guyz ARE EVer's ,we use and believe
in the Product.
It sounds like my choice is good. Besides, I am right next to Illinois
anyway so they won't have to ship it to far! I will be proud to have their
motor.
Yes! Get A Zilla, built by another famous EVer Otmar, he build the best
controllers on the planet. Race tested, we ALL know that.
I like the large current capacity and water cooling, also the pc interface
since I am using one also to control various aspects of the vehicle.
It turns out my GM Hundai automatic transmission is fully electronic
controlled, and contrary to popular belief I think it will work well since I
can control the shift point by rigging the pc or signals from the controller
to the transmission computer. Is it tougher to do? You bet!, but I like
thinking "outside the box", and being different. Besides, I have to make
the car where my wife is willing to drive it....don't have to explain
that...
Batteries? Well yur on your own, I have had the best luck with Trojan
Floodies, If you can handle, or the CAR can , that much weight? Optimas?
Or
the Exide answer to the Optimas, sealed, nice, no @#$% watering, cleaner.
I think I can pretty well choose heavier batts if necessary. The problem I
see with the Optimas is they don't have the current or amp hour rating of
some of the Trojans and cost a lot more even though they weigh a lot less.
The car is very "muscular" with a stout integral frame, stabilizer and
anti-sway bars, and a beefy rear axle. I am going with 12 batteries under
the rear hatch and the 12 volt batteries under the hood. In the worst case
I will need to replace the two rear coil springs for some more lift. There
are huge anti-lock disk brakes all four wheels. I might reverse the lines
to force most of the stopping power to the back. Most everything in a Saab
or Volvo is over-designed if anything. With folding seat and hatch it will
be easy to service the batteries. I plan on fabricating a very strong rack
for the battery pack.
Mark, that's what we are here for. Nobody should be doing EV's
un -Listed. Friends don't let friends, and all that. We wanna see Saabrina
up an' going, She gets on the EV Albun, with you standing by her side EV
grin showing.
Seeya at Woodburn
Bob
Thanks for all the advice, Bob. I can't tell you how happy I will be when I
get to drive her down the road the first time!
Mark
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's also good to have a really light power source.
I've always wondered if one of these folks radial diesel aircraft engines
woudn't be good for hybrid or range extending hybrid trailer applications:
http://www.zoche.de/
Small, light, and aircraft engines are optimized to run at constant rpm for
extended periods of time.
MarvyMarv
> From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:53:13 -0400
> To: "EV" <[email protected]>
> Subject: engine Generator question.
>
>
>
> Engine/generators can be made very efficient because the engine runs at its
> most efficient speed.
>
>
>
> Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the batteries
> with an ICE/generator,
>
>
>
> Is there anything out there that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1
> gallon per hour?
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<<
It's also good to have a really light power source.
I've always wondered if one of these folks radial diesel aircraft engines
woudn't be good for hybrid or range extending hybrid trailer applications:
http://www.zoche.de/
Small, light, and aircraft engines are optimized to run at constant rpm for
extended periods of time.
MarvyMarv
>>>>
Along similar lines (and to get this in before we veer totally OT), why aren't
2-stroke diesels used more? Other than a few big ones in buses and trucks, I've
never seen any in the 20hp-or-less range. Are 2-stroke diesels worse than
4-strokes in the same way gasoline 2-strokes are worse than gas 4-strokes (high
speed/low torque, bad for the air, and needing added lube in the fuel)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
djsharpe wrote:
The postings I have read recently have given me an idea for a compact
emergency current interrupt device. The arc interrupt device would be
My idea was always just a spring or explosive (blank shotgun shell)
driven cutter that slices a 1 foot length of welding cable in half. The
cable could be easily replaced trackside and the system reprimed.
The part I never figured out was the cutters need to be non-conductive
for the system to work. Plastic probably isn't hard enough to cut
welding cable (maybe a bakelite like material), and ceramic blades
(other than kitchen knives) are not readily available.
Testing such a device to guarentee reliability would be a major effort
and getting it approved for racing a major challenge. Using an off the
shelf (and well tested) fuse and an SCR crowbar circuit is still
probably the best method, even if more expensive and harder on the
batteries.
Someone could do the electric racing community a good service by testing
and packaging such a solution and offering it for a reasonable price.
Maybe a simple system that has a "main contactor commanded but failed to
open" detect circuit and an additional manual button.
Safety systems are probably the last place you want to be "hacking" a
solution.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the
> batteries with an ICE/generator, is there anything out there
> that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1 gallon per hour?
Sure. The power plants in the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are more
efficient than this. Driving at 60 mph and getting 60 mpg means you are
burning 1 gal. per hour. These cars use around 250 watthours per mile;
at 60 mph that's 60 x 0.25 = 20 KWH. So they can generate 20 KWH from 1
gallon of gasoline.
However, most small generators are considerably less efficient. They are
designed to be cheap, not efficient. Most are ancient low-compression
flathead designs with carburetors and fixed spark advance that have
hardly changed since the days of the Ford model A.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
>> A generator is about 80-90% eff.
A *good* generator is this efficient. The cheap ones used in
consumer-grade stuff are only 60-70%.
> What kind of generator do you recommend? How much do they weigh
> compared to a 10KW motor? Comment please on generator vs alternator.
"Generator" is the generic term for any motor being used to generate
electricity. An "alternator" is an AC generator. In layman's terms, the
alternators they are familiar with (in cars etc.) have internal diodes,
and so output DC as well.
There is no significant size, weight, or efficiency difference between a
DC and AC generators. If you want DC output, you're better off with a
brushed DC generator, which generates your DC for you. If you want AC,
you're better off with an alternator.
> Also, what is the fuel consumption of an ICE/GEN at no load?
That depends entirely on the engine.
>> A hp = 746watts or .75kw at 100% eff. x gen eff
> Is you point here, that you need extra hp to make up for the GEN
> loss in order to obtain the required output?
Yes. The published specs for ICE generators are often (deliberately)
optimistic. Don't expect to actually get the advertised output power.
If you're charging batteries with an AC-output generator, there will
also be extra losses in converting the AC to DC. These include not only
efficience, but also power factor. If you just rectify the AC output
with diodes (that's all an automotive alternator does), you won't get
more than 50% of the generator's rated output.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi Marv and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<<<
> It's also good to have a really light power source.
> I've always wondered if one of these folks radial
> diesel aircraft engines
> woudn't be good for hybrid or range extending hybrid
> trailer applications:
>
> http://www.zoche.de/
Cool ideas but after watching this company for 10
or so yrs, they seem to be vaporware. Never seen
anything more than a mock up at Sun and Fun aircraft
show, aircraft mags.
Personally I think a modern regenerative steam
engine would be much better for both charging EV's,
hybrids and home heat, electric..
>
> Small, light, and aircraft engines are optimized to
> run at constant rpm for
> extended periods of time.
They are not small enough for what we need, under
25hp at the most. 10-15hp much better.
>
> MarvyMarv
> >>>>
>
> Along similar lines (and to get this in before we
> veer totally OT), why aren't
> 2-stroke diesels used more? Other than a few big
Because they need superchargers to work and in
small sizes, it's just not worth it cost wise.
Better to go to ethanol or e-85 with high
compression as it becomes available everywhere as the
engine cn be much lighter and about as eff on a btu,
cost basis.
> ones in buses and trucks, I've
> never seen any in the 20hp-or-less range. Are
> 2-stroke diesels worse than
> 4-strokes in the same way gasoline 2-strokes are
Depends, since they use fuel injection and have
oil in their crankcases, they don't have many of the
problems of other 2 strokes passing unburnt fuel, lube
oil in the exhaust.
With the new synthetic or bio diesels, pollution,
smell, soot, smoke will drop a lot.
As OT, ask off list directly to me on these.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> worse than gas 4-strokes (high
> speed/low torque, bad for the air, and needing added
> lube in the fuel)?
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Along similar lines (and to get this in before we veer totally OT), why
aren't
2-stroke diesels used more? Other than a few big ones in buses and trucks,
I've
never seen any in the 20hp-or-less range. Are 2-stroke diesels worse than
4-strokes in the same way gasoline 2-strokes are worse than gas 4-strokes
(high
speed/low torque, bad for the air, and needing added lube in the fuel)?
Diesel-electrics are all 2 stroke.
Stihl Chainsaw is coming out with a 4 stroke engine that uses oil mixed with
gas.
BoyntonStu
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--- Begin Message ---
> djsharpe wrote:
>
>>The postings I have read recently have given me an idea for a compact
>>emergency current interrupt device. The arc interrupt device would be
>>
>>
>
> My idea was always just a spring or explosive (blank shotgun shell)
> driven cutter that slices a 1 foot length of welding cable in half. The
> cable could be easily replaced trackside and the system reprimed.
>
Why not just use a solid removeable section. I.e. use a long fuse holder
with a copper pipe in place of the fuse. To interupt power use your
spring loaded device to flick the pipe out of it's holder.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:48 AM 7/4/05 -0500, Mark wrote:
My idea was always just a spring or explosive (blank shotgun shell) driven
cutter that slices a 1 foot length of welding cable in half. The cable
could be easily replaced trackside and the system reprimed.
The part I never figured out was the cutters need to be non-conductive for
the system to work. Plastic probably isn't hard enough to cut welding
cable (maybe a bakelite like material), and ceramic blades (other than
kitchen knives) are not readily available.
A large enough (grain) det cord wrapped around a welding cable will cut it.
This is typically tubing filled with powdered high explosive. I use this
all the time to cut chain/padlocks on cue. Trouble is you need a blasting
certificate to use/store/purchase this stuff, and have to obey strict
handling rules. Very reliable though - and quick!
Duncan
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Hey everyone,
I'm wondering what sort of cooling is needed if I intend to mount my
DCP T-Rex 1000 and DCP DC/DC 400 in the rear trunk of my Porsche 914.
Both are air-cooled devices, and I'm sure that excess heat buildup in
the trunk could be problematic. Furthermore, on hot days, I'm sure it
heats up a bit on its own. However, it's otherwise an ideal space --
it has the right amount of room, keeps the components dry and clean,
and gives me more room in the engine compartment to store batteries,
thus not requiring me to cut battery boxes in the trunk. I plan on
using 16 Optima YT's with a 9"ADC and stock transmission, so if someone
thinks I can easily fit those with all my electronics in the engine
compartment, I may just go with that.
Thanks
-Ben
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Mark and All,
Bob Rice and Mark Ward wrote:
> > Hi Mark;
> >
> > Yup! YA got that right. Us Netgain guyz ARE EVer's ,we use and believe
> > in the Product.
>
> It sounds like my choice is good. Besides, I am right next to Illinois
> anyway so they won't have to ship it to far! I will be proud to have their
> motor.
Mark, both the ADC and NetGain motors are very good. I totally understand your
take on the
people at ADC though, and have received less than courteous interactions from
their
personnel. They are very busy with industrial customers and the EV business is
small
potatoes to them, and unfortunately, they act that way. The good folks at
NetGain and the
motor builders at Warfield however, are 'into' EVs and it shows with the way
you're
treated. They actually act like they're glad you inquired about a motor. I
still have good
words to say about ADC motors as I and many, many others, have had terrific
results from
their products. The ADC 9 incher in Blue Meanie has been flawless now for 11
years, and it
certainly hasn't seen light duty, either! The ADC 9 incher I used in Red
Beastie saw
torturous duty moving that 5300 lb. beast, and, it had to do it for hours on
end. It even
lived through 9000 lb. total combined weight during the load hauls to Woodburn
45 miles
from my home, towing the big tandem wheel trailer, a 500 lb. garden tractor,
hundreds of
lbs. of racing gear, and the race car, at freeway speeds....incredible!
I was at the Warfield facility several times back when I was involved with
NetGain. I hand
picked the heavier duty items, personally spec-ed out the details, and outlined
the design
that would become the 8 and 9 inch NetGain motors, so I'm quite familiar with
these
motors. Most of the credit should remain with NetGain, of course, but I 'was'
an integral
part of the development of these fine electric vehicle motors. That's one of
the reasons I
was asked to be a part of NetGain in the first place and why they flew me back
and forth
to Chicago in the late 90's. I also helped construct their dragster, Bad
Amplitude, too.
Anyway, I believe the NetGain-Warfield motors are a cut above the ADC models.
The 8 inchers I used in White Zombie have held up remarkably well under 2500
amp power
surges, and, high voltage EV drag racing. For the record-setting 240V version
of White
Zombie, each 8 inch motor saw 155V @ 1200 amps, @ 6500 rpm as they pushed the
car to just
over 100 mph. Jim and I have thoroughly inspected them to see what held up, and
what
didn't. After totally dissecting them, I did find flash-over arcing between the
brush
rigging's sharp corners and certain parts of the coms' risers, but other than
that, they
looked pretty darn good! We have addressed the high voltage arcing issue and
have
hopefully, arc-proofed things on the new Siamese 8 motor. Some of the early
Warfield
motors, evidently use the exact same parts as the ADC, as and example...my 8's
had the
identical part # field housing as an 8 inch ADC. Other parts are different. The
newer
NetGain spec-ed motors have evolved, are more unique, and are less similar to
the ADC
offerings.
My original Warfield assembled 8's were nearly identical to the ADC 8 inch,
but they're
now morphed into a new super motor with its custom designed extra long Dutchman
Motorsports stainless steel splined shaft, totally reworked armatures, field
coils, brush
riggings, interconnect bars and cables, bearings and supports, and the super
trick
machining of all metal parts by Jim Husted. The new s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d Siamese 8
under
Jim's artful hands and using my ideas learned from years of EV drag racing is
no longer
NetGain or Warfield. This new Siamese 8 is what we now call a 'Hi Torque
Electric -
Dutchman Motorsports' Plasma Boy custom electric racing motor.
> > Yes! Get A Zilla, built by another famous EVer Otmar, he build the best
> > controllers on the planet. Race tested, we ALL know that.
>
> I like the large current capacity and water cooling, also the pc interface
> since I am using one also to control various aspects of the vehicle.
Ditto on the Zilla...absolutely, the best DC motor controller made for on-road
and all out
racing EVs! As one of Oat's beta testers, I can verify he's obsessed with
making his
controllers tough as nails, safe, and feature-filled. At the drag track, if you
don't show
up with a Zilla, well, you might as well put your EV on a trailer! OK, OK,
maybe the
original DCP Raptor 1200 where Rudman was involved, and some strong bypass
contactors :-)
> > Batteries? Well yur on your own.....
> I think I can pretty well choose heavier batts if necessary. The problem I
> see with the Optimas is they don't have the current or amp hour rating of
> some of the Trojans and cost a lot more even though they weigh a lot less.
>
Whoa....Optimas don't have the current of a wet cell Trojan? Mark, you were
doing great
until this part. A little 45 lb. Optima YT can make 1200 reliable, daily
repeatable amps
'right now' with no adverse effects. Show me the 45 lb. Trojan that can do
this. In fact,
the upper limit in 'daily repeatable BIG amps' of a typical Trojan wet cell 6
volt or 8
volter 70 lb. battery, is only about 500 amps (not even half the Optima's
capability)
before you begin to severely damage the battery and reduce its 700+ cycles down
to about
100 or so, where you'll warp its plates, have it sag into the basement, and in
general
heat up and spit and ooze.
Yes, to the higher ahrs of a larger, heavier, bulkier Trojan wet cell, but even
this is
only if you keep the amp draw at very low levels. Take the BIG amps out of them
like you
can do with an Optima, and that ahr advantage evaporates to where you get more
from the
same weight in Optimas, than you'll ever get out of Trojans. These comments
also apply to
the other two big names in high power AGMs, like Hawker and Exide Orbital.
Saying an
Optima doesn't have the current compared to a Trojan, is like saying a Zilla
doesn't
deliver power like a Curtis...argghh!
Now, if you're content with a very heavy lower voltage pack, and range at tepid
speeds
with substandard acceleration is more important than decent acceleration, you
can limit
the current draw to say, 400 amps, and if you don't mind the gassing, mess, and
corrosion
that comes standard with wet cell type batteries, then yes, Trojans will work
for you. I
use six T-145 Trojans as my preferred choice for my 2000 watt capable inverter
supply in
my forklift service truck. They get used each and every day and deliver lots of
reliable
ahrs. I wipe them down at least once a week and care after all the connections
so they
don't have a chance to corrode, and, I water them about every month or so. In
this
application, one that requires at the most 50 amps from each battery at high
loads into
the inverter, and in general about 20 amps or so, and with deep discharges down
to about
80% max during winter months where I run a 1500 watt space heater in the back
of the
service truck, but with the discharge more shallow at typically 20% depth of
discharge,
they'll last me a long time. In this application, they are a better choice over
an AGM
Hawker, Optima or Exide Orbital.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
With all the recent interest in electric garden tractors, my tale for today is
timely.
First, it was Steve's swimming hair ball, now it's diving tractors?
OK, here's the deal.....I'm helping my wife in our backyard doing un-Plasma Boy
like 'yard
stuff'...after all, it's a long three day 4th of July weekend, the weather's a
near
perfect 71 degrees or so, and there's no rain right now. We had a big, very
special lemon
yellow Rhododendron that's been in a large 3 - 4 foot diameter pot for many
years now,
unlike all the other Rhodies we have planted all around. This one came from a
nursery in
this big pot, but we had finally decided to make a new place for it and had dug
a deep
hole to plant it into. This thing probably weighed 400 lbs. in its big pot, and
we needed
to move it from the crowded side yard where it had sat for several years next
to the large
stone wall and the corner of the house garage. Those who've been to our place
can probably
visualize things as this story progresses.
In between yard stuff, I'm also working on the race car, organizing my EV shop,
and doing
other more Plasma Boy-like stuff. Soooo...my wife is wondering just how we're
going to
move this big heavy plant the 25 feet or so we need to get it over to where its
new home
is, when I pronounce that my recent rework of the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor
(HMGT) is
complete, and it's up and running, ready to show her what it can do with its
fresh pack of
6 Exide Orbitals.
As she and I are digging this big hole in the ground, the HMGT is poised near
us in the
small wooded back yard, her favorite Eagles CD in the slot, tunes playing in
full
fidelity, though at a more a subdued volume so as not to bother our neighbors.
The time
comes for the work to be done, and after securing a nylon tow rope around the
base of the
big pot with a second tow rope connecting it to the tow hook on the rear of the
HMGT, it
was time to let a little electric torque help us out. With Cheryl at the
controls and in
the tractor's seat, I was keeping the plant upright. Without much trauma the
little garden
tractor effortlessly tugged and pulled the big potted plant as it slid along
the ground
while I guided it and kept it from being toppled over.
After successfully moving the plant to near the hole, we then needed to get the
plant out
of the pot, and, do it while not destroying the pot, as my wife wanted to keep
it for
another replanting project. It's not that easy, when it's so big and heavy, and
try as we
did, we could not separate the plant from its pot....enter the HMGT again. We
carefully
tied two nylon tow ropes around the tree-like trunk of the Rhodie and hitched
the other
ends to the tractor. I gave the HMGT about 1/2 throttle as it started to tug,
then begun
spinning both rear tires by itself, as I was off the tractor and helping Cheryl
pull the
pot away from the compacted root ball. It worked, as suddenly the whole thing
came loose
from the pot......unfortunately, so did the nylon tow ropes off the tractor's
tow hook
:-(
Off went the tractor, dead straight towards our back yard fish pond that's
about 3 feet
deep! I hadn't noticed, but the speed selector of the variable pulley-tranny
affair, was
in 7th, or top speed. I mean, it was heading dead-on at the pond's end flat
rock, which
overhangs a 3 foot deep hole large enough to easily swallow the entire tractor!
As it sped away towards the pond it ran over and flattened my wife's designer
largish
sized watering can (not good) then smacked into a potted small tree tipping it
over and
moving it out of the way, then into two more potted plants. It was about a foot
shy of
flying over the rock as I caught up with the runaway tractor and did something
I normally
try not to do...flip the reversing toggle switch under load! Instantly, the
motor
reversed, the controller lived through the ordeal, and with rear tires churning
up soil
and rocks, the tractor barely missed going into the pond and was now really
pissed off and coming
backwards at me! I was able to leap aside and pull the throttle down where the
possessed
HMGT simply went silent and sat there.....whew!
I tell you, it was really weird! An inspection of the front of the tractor
showed no signs
of damage....nothing. The watering can was pretty lunched and one of the pots
was cracked,
but the front of the tractor looked fine. Once I had the tractor back in the EV
shop, I
found the front tie rod was bent, but that was an easy fix.
See Ya....John Wayland
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